khragon
Wise choice! I am thrilled with the synergy the SIT-3 has with the Nenuphars and the SIT-2 should be even better from what Srajan heard with the SIT-1. I think you'll be shocked at the difference between the SIT-2 and your other amps. You're in for a treat. |
grannyring
Although I think I'm the newest Nenuphar owner on the block--just at 2 weeks--I'll chime in with my answer to your question regarding the speakers resolution making "below average sounding recordings sound less enjoyable or possibly bad?"
My answer, yes and no. Yes, their resolution reveals more about the recording space/method than any speaker I've owned. But not in a tipped up, etchy way. It's just a natural openness that brings me deeper into the recording. But that resolution doesn't necessarily make below average recordings sound worse. In most cases it made them more interesting, because at the same time the speakers are revealing the recordings quirks it's also revealing the strength (or weakness) of the music. For instance, a lot of Billie Holiday's work is poorly recorded. The speaker doesn't shy away from that but it also brings such tonality and nuance to her voice that you quickly forget the recording quality and are absorbed by what you've never heard before in her singing.
On decently to well recorded material the Nenuphars bring you into the recording space like no other. Listening to well recorded live albums can cause a virtual reality experience. On the Marian McPartland album 85 Candles (Live in New York) you not only feel like you're in the audience at Birland but you can hear the patrons clapping on either side of your listening chair! How's that for sound staging!
BTW, I just purchased your Acoustic BBQ Dueland 12ga IC for my system. Looking forward to the audition.
Steve
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@david_ten
And, yes, thanks David for pointing out Srajan's latest (which is now finished). I now have the term for what I'm hearing from the Nenuphars driven by the SIT-3: Tuscan sunshine! |
@debjit_g eager to hear what you think of the "music purifiers" and also very interested in your changing out the internal wire. Want to hear more about optimum wire before making the leap.
To add to the wire discussion: I bought a pair of Silversmith Audio's Fidelium speaker cables on a 30 day home audition. I only have about half the burn in hours they recommend (50), but I have to say they clearly leave my Shunyata Alpha V2 cables in the dust. Clarity, detail, layering, depth, and maybe most surprisingly bass have all taken an engaging, totally musical leap forward. They are 1/4 the price of the Shunyata Alphas--pretty shocking really. Number of reviews out there.
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"...a bit lacking in warmth, a bit rough sounding in the upper midrange and had a pronounced peak in the treble range."
Interesting that the above accurately describes what I was hearing during the first 25 hours or so of playing the Nenuphars. (Also interesting that during the first 5 hours of play they actually sounded better.) I'm at about 55 hours now and will wait to 100+ to give further impressions.
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toetapaudio
Thanks for the recommendation. Just ordered them--they are certainly a better resistor than the one I'm using (which Vinnie probably suggested since we didn't know whether it would work). We'll see if they make a difference.
david_ten
This is heresy! But I'm going to try it--even the part about putting my VR on the Townsend platform, although I think it is too light for the weight load range of the platform springs. Have to check.
When I first put the Nenuphars on the platforms I noticed a big change to the sound. Sometimes one is lead to believe that means a change all for the better, which is obviously not always the case. We'll see. Thanks for passing on what you found.
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khragon
Great news you like the synergy with the SIT-2. Look forward to hearing more. My latest development is putting the Nenuphar's on Townshend Podiums (I've been using them under my speakers for a few years). toetapaudio listed the many benefits of this isolation device, so I"ll just say that the cumulative effect takes the speakers to another level I wasn't even thinking was there (the curse of the audiophile). Music sounds untethered to anything creating it, it just fills the space in the room quite effortlessly with no emphasis on transients or any part of the frequency range. Kind of a jaw dropper when you first hear it. My only complaint is that the foot print of the podium is fairly large and not wildly attractive. I'm sure Cube and Townshend could design something that was a more compact part of the speaker (purchased as an option?). Yes it would raise the speaker price by $2K or so, but the improvement IMHO is more than worth it. |
grannyring
The Townshend podiums are size 4 with load capacity E which starts at 85lbs so I put a couple of VPI bricks on top of each speaker since they are about 80lbs each. geoffkait
Makes sense. |
While I'm at it, I'm also going to post the results of the amplifier shoot out between the LTA Ultralinear and the PL SIT-3. Yes, I know, the Nenuphars are probably not fully broken in, but at around 75 hours I think the changes from here will be subtle and not alter the difference I hear between these two wonderful amplifiers.
Both these amps display terrific synergy with the Nenuphars. The difference being a matter of taste. To borrow from Srajan when he compared the Bakoon to the SIT-3 on page 6 of his Cube Audio Mini Basis review, the LTA was "a Nordic summer day" and the SIT-3 a "Tuscan afternoon, early fall." Which translates to many things having to do with detail, mid range, base and tempo. The LTA rendering detail more prominently, with a leaner mid range, a slightly more refined base and PRAT that was quicker, more forward. It made me sit up and take wonder. With the SIT-3 detail was more in balance, the mid range richer, the base deeper and rounder, and PRAT, well this is where it gets tricky, because there was something that made the SIT-3 more engaging, that pulled me into the music more, sometimes to a very emotional degree. My suspicion is it had something to do with PRAT, although none of those ingredients really called attention to themselves. Maybe it was greater second harmonic distortion? Bottom line: it would be nice to keep both amps to enjoy Nordic summer days and early fall Tuscan days as the mood struck me. But that seems a little excessive. I'm very happy here in Italy where "The light is softer. Edges are gentler. The breeze is warmer. Lunches are far longer."
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david_ten
How are your speakers setup on the Townshend platforms? Stock spikes / similar to @toetapaudio ’s OR some other arrangement? Did setting the speakers on the platforms ’force’ changes in positioning / placement? Thank you.
David--I am using the stock spikes in front and rubber feet in back. I centered them on the Townshend Podiums then leveled them on the side to side access by adjusting the Podiums’ feet. I used the placement I had found optimal before, about 36" from side walls and 20" from front wall (measured from back of speaker). I asked Jon what impact it might make to raise the drivers 1 3/8" off the floor using the Podiums. He said I might need to angle the speakers slightly more towards the listening chair, but I haven’t found the need to do this. (BTW I have found the angle of the speakers toward the listening chair to be the most critical set up adjustment. Very slight adjustments will impact tonality: the more toed in the more emphasis on higher frequencies. Since my listening is fairly near field (8’ from speakers 7’ apart) I don’t find the toe in impacts the soundstage as much as tonality. Even with the speakers facing straight ahead I get a strong, well defined central image.
I have noticed using other speakers on the Townshend Podiums that I could hear no difference between placing the speakers without feet on the podiums (Townshend’s recommendation and obviously not possible with the Nenuphars given it’s bottom port and back slant) and using feet, whether they be spikes or cones. But that may vary by speaker.
An interesting early impression of the Nenuphars on the Podiums makes them sound more forgiving of recording technique, although there is no doubt they are also more resolving. Kind of a conundrum. The entire presentation is just more relaxed and open. |
@dspringham I noticed that you have your Nenuphars for sale on USAudiomart. Looks like you have moved on to the Harbeth 40.3's. Would very much like to hear reasons for the change: specifically what you feel are the Harbeth's advantages over the Nenuhpars. I have never heard any Harbeth model but certainly have read many positive reviews. Thanks.
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Perhaps the most important quality of the Nenuphar's--for me--is their ability, with the right amp, etc., to create a bewitching or what SE described as a psychotropic sense of presence. In describing the sound of the upgraded driver, SE claims it has "a bit less presence-region amplitude, more weight." This is a big red flag for me, especially since I've achieved "more weight" from the addition of a sub. Losing this upper mid-range-presence-magic might be impossible to regain with component or cable swapping.
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I have about 100 hours now on my Nenuphars and just recently noticed another notch of improvement in the high register.
david_ten, toetapaudio
At what point did you feel the speakers were fully broken in?
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Interesting recent posts by all addressing synergy of Nenuphars with various amps. Good to hear reinforcement of the AC Genus magic--it received a rave from AVShowrooms. The LM 845 Premium is also a pairing I would love to hear--although I believe it uses some negative feedback in its circuit, but don't quote me. I recently got to try a Tektron 2A3 which impressed me with it's purity. But I preferred both the SIT-3 and the LTA Ultralinear--more grip and meat on the bone.
In fact, not to drive everyone crazy (anymore than it's driving me crazy) but I've taken another turn with my amp preference. David_ten was right on (no surprise) about speaker break in. Somewhere between 125 hours and 200 hours the SIT-3 began sounding a little thick and slow--I kept thinking it was cables and began swapping things out. Then I put the LTA back in and voila, the veil disappeared and we had dynamics galore plus stronger base (the LTA remember has a much lower damping factor). Obviously the speakers are continuing to open up and reveal everything in their path. Don't get me wrong, the SIT-3 makes great music with these speakers but as you get to know them better--i.e. as they break in--you (or at least I) tend to want more of what they do best which can be so life-like and unrestrained. But of course nothing's absolute. There are those flavors ranging from the 2A3 type low wattage SET's to the relatively burly 845 and SIT-3 type amps with perhaps the classic 300b SET somewhere in the middle. Wish I could try them all!
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david_tenThanks, David, I missed your post in the thread. Hard to imagine there is more to come from these wonderful speakers as I reach the 100 hour mark. If anyone has heard of or experienced the Nenuphars being driven by 300bs, please let me know. Curious about that tube's synergy. |
BTW I contacted Vinnie Rossi to give him my congrats on the L2iSE and mentioned the high damping factor that wasn’t supposed to work with the Nenuphars. He suggested adding a 10 ohm resistor to the positive speaker terminals to see if that made a difference. I ordered the resistors (VR told me which kind) and we’ll see. |
Thanks, David. The information that you and others have provided in your thread has gone a long way to helping me better understand and optimize these wonderful speakers.
Of late, I've been auditioning cables. I've been comparing Synergistic Foundation cables against their higher-priced stable mates Atmosphere X and against the hodge podge of my existing cables (Teresonic, Dueland and Teo Audio GC). I started with the Foundation replacing my Dueland speaker cables and was startled by how much better they were. In fact, it prompted one of those classic moments where my wife came in and said, "You just changed something." The Dueland cables sounded vintage, rolling off highs and smoothing transients, very pleasant, but the Nenuphars don't need that tonic. The Foundation cables brought out their best, even to a higher degree I thought than the Atmosphere X Excite speaker cables at more than four times the price. Interestingly the X Excite cables exhibited some of the Dueland characteristics, being smoother and mellower. (An added plus to the Foundation speaker cables, for those with white Nenuphars like myself, is they come in white!)
The Foundation speaker cables made the most impactful difference, but the interconnects reinforced their benefits in audible ways. I'm now auditioning the Atmosphere X USB cable against the Atmosphere X Reference USB.
The homebound joys of landscaping and falling into the Nenuphar's musical spell are helping to keep me sane in these harrowing times.
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It is hard if not impossible to find silver linings to these times, but if there was one it might be my local First Watt dealer's change of heart to let go of his precious pair of SIT-1 demos, prompted by both a need to whip up some business and cull his equipment closet. He was gracious enough to let me first audition them, providing white-gloved delivery to my doorstep, then giving the boxes an alcohol wipe down before waving goodbye from a more than acceptable social distance.
Into my listening cave I carried these surprisingly heavy and legendary monos. I gave them an hour to warm up and then sat down and by a gradual accumulation of degrees proceeded to be overwhelmed. I had expected from Srajan's Nenuphar review that the SIT-1 would come out swinging with more speed and light than the SIT-3, but what I hadn't expected was how completely different the 1's presentation was. It was a different sound altogether, larger, wider, deeper, more detailed, more intense tonal colors, livelier tempo and beyond everything, more engrossing. In fact, as I listened through my Roon album file named Sound Check, I was emotionally pulled into music I had simply put there as a test of say instrument separation and had played hundreds of times. This amp performs that rare magic trick of illuminating every nuance of recording space and technique, while at the same time bringing music to life in a way you can resist. Don't even think about having these play some harmless tune in the background while you do your taxes: you'd have to turn it way down so as not to be sucked in completely. (I know you're thinking this smacks of euphonics, that I must have had the bias set to pull in second harmonic distortion. But not so, I preferred the needle straight up in neutral.)
I think Srajan downplayed the SIT-1's superiority over every other amp he tried with the Nenuphars because he felt it unfair to tease with the unobtainable. My hunch is the same synergy is attainable with the best of the no feedback, low damping factor, low powered SET's that several people here drive their lotuses with. A/B ing the 1's against my LTA Ultralinear showed how close Berning's ZOTL design comes to Nirvana, but the SIT-1 poked through the clouds to a performance peak I have not experienced with the Nenuphars--or any other speaker for that matter. Long live Nelson Pass.
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Hi Charles,
It feels more like I've fallen rather than stepped--not really knowing what I was getting into. As you know, when you replace a critical piece of gear, like a loudspeaker, one thing leads to optimizing another and before you know it, you've replaced almost everything in your system! I'm not there yet, but I have auditioned some cables (I was using vintage wire), so probably my next update, if I can keep myself from crowing more about the SIT-1's, will be that. The Nenuphars make quick work of comparing cables.
Thanks for following along on this much needed, alternate world trek.
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I have a tweak for those of you who have your Nenuphars sitting on Townshend Seismic Platforms. This was inspired by an email I recently received from an audiophile friend who was considering the Siesmic Platforms and ended up speaking with Max Townshend himself. Max strongly encouraged him to get as much of the speaker’s bottom surface touching the Platform’s plate. And mentioned spikes accomplished the opposite. I pondered this for a while and remembered I had some 1" x 2" maple trim in the garage. I cut the trim into two pieces the width of the speakers. I tilted the speakers back and placed the wood strips underneath the very front spanning the width of the speaker--the height of the trim (which is really 1 and 3/4") was just slightly higher than the spikes. Voila, after just a few minutes of listening I had audible proof that Max might know what he’s talking about. Better focus, separation and very noticeably better depth. I haven’t tried a thinner strip of wood to support the speaker’s rear but I think I will. (I’ve got a little time on my hands.) If you spend $20 on this tweak only to end up thinking I’m crazy, well, blame Mr. Townshend.
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Hi David,
Yes, I was using original spikes but I think Townshend's point would over-rule different spikes mattering altogether--at least when the speakers are on the Seismic Platforms.
My updates relate to refining components upwind of my Nenuphar/SIT-1 combination that still sounds like a marriage made in heaven. My focus has been on my pre, which took an unexpected detour when the dealer who sold me my SIT-1's brought over a Pass Labs SP-10 to try. To my surprise (I thought I was doing HIM the favor) I quickly acquiesced to it's obvious benefits over the tube pre I'd been using (all the tube pre's for that matter I'd been using): truer pitch and tonal definition, much tighter and engaging bass, a more open soundstage with much better focus, and deeper, darker space. My tube prejudice was soundly put in it's place. After extended listening my only qualm with the SP-10 was that it could sound--with some recordings, not all--a little mechanical and dry. With Ella's Clap Hands Here Comes Charlie for instance. (But I'm pretty sure the CD of that recording has been digitally enhanced.) Realizing the SP-10 was on the lower tier of the PL line of pre amps, I did some research and found what I thought was the sweet spot of the line, the SP-22. I soon purchased a used one from Mark at Reno Hifi. Not surprisingly the SP-22 was even better in all areas than the SP-10 without a whiff of the latter's short comings. After 10 days with the SP-22 in the system, I am still listening with new born amazement. I think it corroborates that the Nenuphar speaker cries out for a kind of organic neutrality up front, white on white if you will that leaves the purest palette for it to paint its true colors. But then again if you do prefer the color of a certain component--let's say the sunshine of a Shindo pre--it will give you just that it all it's saturated glory. I just find any global tint grows tiresome over time--at least with this speaker.
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Thanks Charles, much appreciated. And you’re right that my preference, like yours apparently, is for tubes: I’ve been enthralled for the last ten years with a Shindo Giscours. But played through the Nenuphars, the Giscours imprinted the music too much for me. I believe a DHT pre, as Srajan claimed in his review of the SIT-1, is probably the way to go, although a reader posted on 6 Moons that he ordered a DHT from Thomas Mayer but was unhappy with its pairing with the SIT-1. I’m drawn to Vinnie Rossi’s latest DHT, but Srajan didn’t rave about it the way he did with the Trafomatic 10Y, which apparently was a one-off prototype. There are affordable DHT pre’s from Supratek and private builders like Radu Tarta, but scarce reviews make them seem like a shot in the dark.
I believe you owned--and maybe still do--the Coincident DHT pre--forget the name. Any impressions or feelings about compatibility you might relay?
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Charles,
Thanks for the insight into the CSL. I do think it might be a great match for my system but I have one reservation: I have been spoiled by using a remote volume control. I understand there was a version of the CSL made with a remote but that they had trouble with it. Also, I've heard the MkII version has significant improvements over it's predecessor--I assume it was the MKII that came out briefly with a volume remote. Any insights would be helpful.
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David,
You make good points regarding the placement of the Nenuphars on the Townshend Seismic Platforms.
1. When I first placed the Nenuphars on the Platforms I noticed a distinct improvement in bass response, as well as other other SQ issues that have been well documented in this thread. The speakers were on their original spikes and rubber feet. I mention this because I too was worried about the Platform negatively impacting bass response because of the having the double surface you mentioned.
2. The strips of wood do not interfere with the port of the Nenuphar. The front 1x2 is underneath the solid portion of the speaker bottom between the spikes and the front plane of the speaker. The rear strip has less bottom surface to work with but rests underneath the maybe 3/8" between the port and the back plane of the speaker.
3. I have been careful to maintain the angle of backward slant that the original spikes and rubber feet created.
So even though I have not coupled very much of the speaker's bottom surface area to the platform, it is obviously significantly greater than the surface area touched by the spikes and rubber feet.
I have to emphasize that this way of coupling the speaker to the Platform created an immediate change in sound--not subtle as they say. I thought the change improved virtually all aspects of the speakers performance, including bass. It would be great for some Nenuphar/Townshend Platform owner to corroborate this: obviously a change in sound this strong could be interpreted negatively by other people.
My friend who passed this info on from Max does not have Nenuphars, so didn't have to deal with the port issue. He had a special bottom plate built for his Spatial Audio Lumina's by Clayton Shaw, the designer, who was also impressed by the benefits.
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David
Meniscus tears are no fun. Lived with one far too long. Wish I'd gone to the surgeon first thing. I suppose that's deemed an elective surgery right now? Good luck.
My bad, I didn't understand your point at first. Yes, the wood strips do close off the space front and back between Platform and bottom of speaker. And you're right, that space was no doubt tuned for the size and output of the port. I'm going to do some A/B listening with and without the wood strips to see if I can get a handle on what it's doing to the bass. (Ok, I have to admit when I first put the wood under the speakers my ears gave a double thumbs up and they haven't moved since.) But I have to say when I was listening to the Symphony Fantastique the other day (at near live level) I was amazed by the depth and reverberation of the kettle drums...so I don't think it's diminishing the bass...
On another note, I ran into the Townshend Super Tweeters I used to use with other speakers in my storage closet. I think I'll experiment with those. I remember SE effusing about the addition of omnidirectional super tweeters (forget the name right now) on top of the Nenuphars.
This makes me sound like I'm unappreciative of the Nenuphars as is. Hardly. It's more like having a hyper sensitive instrument that responds to everything it interacts with. Fun stuff.
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First to log in on speaker cable inquiry: I use SR Foundation cables after having auditioned them against Double Shotgun Clear Day cables. (RIP Paul Laudati). The Foundation had more meat in the mid range and bass as well as more air and larger soundstage.
But now on to my latest discovery. So I've been sitting here happy as an audiophile clam can be with my Pass Labs XP-32 and SIT 1's making magic with my Nenuphars. Then my local Pass Labs dealer (Gestalt Hifi) becomes a Vinnie Rossie dealer and offers me an audition of the VR Integrated Amp L2i. He even has the upgraded Elrog 300b tubes. I look up the specs on this universally acclaimed 100 AB watts per channel unit and find it has zero negative feedback (great) but an output impedance of .10 ohm. Not so great, giving it a damping factor of 800 driving the Nenuphars. But still, my friend Mike is willing to come over and install the beautiful beast (50 lbs) white gloving the tubes and everything. We listen for a while, things sound decent, he leaves and I'm sort of wincing at this over ripe plummy ness to Bill Charlaps's piano. (Ah tubes, I say to myself.) So I go away and come back in a couple of hours and really listen. Whoa. Wait. We have a contender here! All plummy ness is gone, the soundstage is HUGE (something others have heralded about this amp), instruments are 3 dimensional and tonal colors are like wet paint. This can't be, it sounds more alive and real than my SIT-1s! But I'm not focusing on the bass enough, surely the gorilla damping factor has to be sitting on that. So I play the best test of true bass I know, Ray Brown's Super Bass and his Three by Four number from his Walk On album. Not only is depth of bass better, but it's more tuneful and full of these micro details, string against finger flesh, string against wood I've never heard before. Plus the live recording space has become my room! So what's the damping factor reigning in or impacting? I can't hear it. I think someone here a while ago loved the Nenuphars with an equally high damping factor Gryphon amp. I looked askance. Well, I ain't looking that way no more. The VR is punching way above it's damping factor weight (or any weight class for that matter) and I'm grinning ear to ear. More to come.
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I would like to add my two cents to the discussion about amp compatibility, specifically regarding damping factor, with the Nenuphars. To recap: I've had extended auditions with three amps: the LTA Ultralinear, The First Watt SIT-3 and the First Watt SIT-1. I settled on the SIT-1 for its overall superiority--not just one thing it did better than the rest. However, one area in which the SIT-1 excelled that I believe might be related to damping factor is scale. As mrubey and others have commented, the Nenuphars are capable of creating the scale of much larger speakers. But not only does the SIT-1 bring a noticeably increased sense of largeness through a sound stage that opens more in every direction, but it increases immediacy and involvement when playing at low volumes. I found this to be even more important than increasing the largeness of scale since I'm an early riser and play at relatively low volumes for several hours before others wake. Does this have something to do with damping factor? I don't know, but Charles and some of the other more technically astute posters might. Although all the amps I've mentioned have relatively low damping factors, the SIT-1's factor is 2 which is the lowest by a significant margin. |
Was there mention of associated equipment used in Isak’s review and I just missed it? |
david_ten Congrats on your new amps. Can't wait to hear your report.
BTW I ended up with the Sigma NR V2 power cable instead of the Omega. When attached to the VR L2i-SE it had 85% of the benefits of the Omega at 50% of the price. Still truly remarkable.
Next up, I'm auditioning some Shunyata Alpha NR V2 speaker cables.
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I know that John from Refined Audio has said he slightly prefers the 8" over the 10".
Another avenue to consider is using the 10" with room correction software. I have 10" Nenuphars in a relatively small room 13 x 15 x 10 and think they work great, but have noticed that some mid to lower bass notes get muddled (I have no acoustic treatments other shelves of records). I am going to borrow a Dspeaker anti-mode x4 to see if it corrects this. Won't happen till late July, but I'll report back. |
I am about to join the Nenuphar circle: on order with Jon at RefinedAudio to arrive in a couple of weeks. I actually made this decision before finding this thread, but it's contents have corroborated what I have read elsewhere and provided helpful hints re set up. Thanks.
I will be driving the Nenuphars with a Linear Tube Audio Ultralinear amp, a 20 watt per channel Berning ZOTL with 1.6 ohm out put impedance--a key number in determining capability. Gregorz assures me it will be a good fit--in fact, he mentioned he is working on his own design of an OTL amp.
After break in, I'll come back and give you impressions.
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I just listened to the recently posted AVShowrooms video https://www.avshowrooms.com/cube-audio-nenuphar-loudspeakers.htmland for the first time in my experience I actually thought I could hear something of the quality of these speakers coming through on my cheap earbuds. I then listened to the video review of the Tekton Moabs also on AVShowrooms and sure enough could hear the difference distinctly between the two speakers. Since I'm getting my Nenuphars on Tuesday, this is no doubt anticipatory-audiophilia-I-just-invested-a-car-load-into-speakers-I've never-heard-syndrom (but with a generous 60 day return policy). So take what I say with a bigger grain of salt than usual. I've added a First Watt SIT-3 to my system in the mean time to compare against my LTA Ultralinear. My pre is a Western Electric Shindo Giscour and sources are a Shindo 301 with a Hommage T1 and a Totaldac D-1 and Anthem music server. My speaker cables are Clear Day Double Shotgun which might be a weak link. Love to hear some thoughts about any speaker cable synergy Nenuphar owners have discovered. Thanks, Steve |
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Thanks for your feedback, David.
Once things have settled in, I'm going to audition the Sablon speaker cables, the Synergistic Research Foundations (a relatively new cable getting some good buzz) and one other, depending on what I can get either through Cable Company or with a decent return policy. I'll research Scott Sheaffer's cables but the Allnics I believe are out of my price range.
And thanks Charles for your encouragement.
Just FYI, these are the boxes I wanted to check during my new speaker search (started a couple of years ago) that lead me to the Nenuphars:
1. high efficiency to work with lower powered SET "type" tube or ss amps
2. relatively small size and not too finicky about room placement
3. will sing at low volume levels
4. suitable for standard near field listening
5. accurate base down to 28HZ +/- 3db
6. holographic sound staging
7. tonally rich but accurate tone without unnatural warmth or roundness
8. priced under $12K
The Nenuphars miss slightly on items 5 and 8, but I was surprised how few speakers came that close, i. e. none. The NSMT Model 100 (reviewed by Terry London for 6Moons) were the closest runner up, but the manufacturer recommended at least 50 watts per channel (despite being 91db efficient) and they had a separately amped bass driver which I've always been wary of seamlessly integrating. I'm sure I missed some other possibilities out there but also sure the Nenuphars will fit the bill!
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My apologies for posting such a first blush reaction after just two days of listening to the Nenuphars, but the experience has been so extraordinary that there is an irresistible need to share--although I know there are some here who've already inhaled.
My first response was an unexpected sense of relief, not just a letting go of my concern over making the right choice, but a relief of years of searching for something I hoped was out there but hadn't yet found. Well, I heard it once when I spent a few hours auditioning a pair of Sonus Faber Aidas (the original version) in 2014. But trying to find something that did all that in my price range and able to work in my room with my preference for low watt amps seemed to be futile. Lots of good experiences a long the way to be sure, but not this sense of having arrived, of hearing the music so powerfully that it overwhelmed any considerations of doubt, of wanting more of anything, of something missing. No, I'm not claiming the Nenuphars sound like the Aidas (or even that that's an appropriate comparison). What I'm saying is listening to the Nenuphars brought on the same feeling I had when I listened to the Aidas: a holy-cow-kind-of-transportation, a feeling of encountering the real thing, an immersion into where the recording is taking you, like the struggle is over and there's nothing left but to face the music.
It seems contrary to single out something when I'm really trying to convey a sense of "completeness", something Shindo gear owners (c'est moi) have been known to brag about, but the human voice through the Nenuphars startled me with nuance, color, and pitch I never knew was there. I first twigged to this listening to the channel identification track on the Stereophile set-up CD. This is always one of the first listens with new gear--mainly to get the balance spot on. Through the Nenuphars I heard layers of nuance in the gentleman's voice who says, "The fender bass guitar you are about to hear should appear to come from the left loudspeaker only," that made him sound like someone I had never met standing in my room. My thought was, "if this loudspeaker can bring that level of truth out of a simple speaking voice, what will it do with song, with strings, with..."
Until the last hour of listening, I've been driving the Nenuphars with my LTA Ultralinear. I just put in a First Watt SIT-3. So far I'm still lost in the music and can't tell you which one I'm going to keep.
Ok, I know, calm down. I'll give the speakers a chance to come into their own and then I'll tell you how I really feel.
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I've got about 35 hours on my new Nenuphars, swapping between First Watt SIT-3 and LTA Ultralinear amps. The break-in changes to SQ have been subtle and what you would expect--increase in depth, smoother highs, tighter bass. But the difference between the two amps is not subtle. SIT-3 is more mid-range and mid-bass oriented, slightly darker, earthier. A tunefully dense, very engaging sound. The Ultralinear is like switching to a brighter bulb, recording space more visible, more air and dimension to instruments and voices, better dynamics. I find this openness to be even more seductive than the SIT-3, delivering a heightened sense of you-are-there. Bass is very similar, tuneful, tight and deep with both--interesting since the two amps have very different damping factors (LTA being about 1/5th of the SIT-3). Maybe the distinction in bass will become greater once the speakers have had a chance to break in more. If I had to make the choice right now--more a matter of taste because they both are a great match--I would pick the LTA. To me it just offers more of the magic these speakers make. Which begs the question: "Would a 2A3 or 300b amp often even more?" I've put the word out locally for a loaner...but that's just audiophilia curiosity talking. I'm a totally enthralled camper with the Ultralinear.
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Just exchanged emails with Grzegorz. He said they use multi conductor copper cables in their speakers and that he prefers copper speaker cables.
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@cal3713 What brand of silver speaker cable did you purchase?
Interesting because with the SIT-3-Nenuphar combo, I prefer the WE 14ga vintage copper cable (similar I would imagine to your Dueland tinned copper). Bunch of improvements over the silver Clear Day Double Shot Guns I had been using.
But I'm just approaching 50 hours of break in and already things have changed since my last post. My preference between the LTA Ultralinear and the SIT-3 has swung more towards the latter. Something has changed, opening that amp up. The previous owner of the SIT-3 told me it had low hours on it and I believe it is breaking in along with the Nenuphars. More on that when I get to the 100 hour or so mark.
I wonder if anyone knows what type of wire runs from the driver to the speaker terminals inside the Nenuphar cabinet?
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Charles, indeed the Nenuphars have remarkable transparency, in fact the most of any speaker I've ever heard, including electrostatics which I owned for many years. It is a totally relaxed, natural kind of detail that doesn't seemed forced, just part of the music. Hard to describe, but it is unique to me. They make comparing cables--or any component I would imagine--very easy.
Cal, thanks for the info on your silver cables. They sound special indeed. I have the Clear Day as mentioned and also some Dueland silver. Both impart a slight ringing to high key piano notes being struck sharply and a little fatigue listening to massed strings--to my ears anyway and in my system with speakers that no doubt still have a ways to break in. Right now I like the copper although I can't even figure out which amp I like better. Maybe this is why some folks have more than one amp?
But boy do these puppies sing.
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Vinpic Thanks for your impressions of the V2 drivers. You didn’t mention soundstage or imaging which I assume meant no change but just wanted to check.
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Cal and Charles,
Yes, it is definitely on my list to audition with the L2i acting solely as a DHT pre amp driving the SIT-1s. I have a hunch about it but won't say because as Charles says you just don't know until you listen.
The problem is tearing myself away from what's coming forth from the integrated. Oh, my. And my apologies, it's Rossi duh not Rossie.
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Thanks, David.
There are indeed a number of pathways to pursue with the combination of the L2i and SIT 1s. But before I get started I wanted to make sure that the high damping factor of the L2i driving the Nenuphar was a non issue. Maybe the Ray Brown bass test--which the L2i passed with flying colors--wasn’t all encompassing. So I dove into my orchestral playlist to hear more. And I quickly discovered a problem. The L2i delivered the bass drum with a whimper, no impact, no mallet on skin. The drum’s climax after a crescendo was muffled, dim. Played through the SIT-1 with the XP32 pre the drum was big, impactful, as it should be. Night and day difference. One track that made this incredibly obvious was Prelude and Aztec Dance from Reference Recording’s Fiesta!, Dallas Wind Symphony, Howard Dunn. This was a big let down for me because other aspects of the L2i’s synergy with the Nenuphars were so positive: the deeper, wider soundstage, the enhanced 3D presence, the lit-from-within tonality. How much of that is attributable to the DHT pre-amplifier part of the design and how much to the AB MOSFET amp stage? Well, running the L2i into the SIT-1s as a DHT preamp might help answer that question. (With those big Elrog 300B Polaris missiles emerging from the top of the L2i, I think we all might have a hunch.)
Still, how could the L2i play Ray Brown’s bass with depth and impact but drop the ball with the big bass drum entirely? The greater the bass dynamic the more the damping factor affects it?
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rivecs
I've thought about this, but removing the drivers, let alone soldering, was too intimidating for me--like you say.
Obvious questions are:
1. what kind of wire? silver? copper? both?
2. and once you have the right wire why not run it directly to amp, skipping speaker cables altogether?
More on Vinnie Rossi L2i. I'll just come out and come clean on this: I am enthralled by the way this integrated amp sounds with the Nenuphars. It is a no joke, jaw dropping experience, blowing out the side walls and back wall and probably ceiling if mine weren't 18' high. And it's so tonally real and present and alive that I just can't find a nat to pick. Except that problem I just posted about it not delivering the big bass. Well, I discovered a way to fix it...now wait for it...TURN UP THE VOLUME. I know, I'm an idiot, but a conscientious one, trying to keep volume levels equal when I go from one amp (the SIT-1) to the other, the L2i. I normally listen in the low/mid 80's db perfect for my size room for jazz and chamber music (which is maybe 72% of my musical diet). Yes, with the level set at 84 db (according to my radio shack thingy) the SIT-1 delivered real bass drum whacks but the L2i needed more juice. Like four up clicks on its 64 step remote volume control (to about 89 db). Voila, like the magical Harry Potter paintings that suddenly become three dimensional, you are immersed in a musical sound field with no lack of bass. (Before accusing me of hyperbole read some of the reviews of the L2i or the separates it's the hybrid of. And remember those reviewers don't have Nenuphars!) So, yes, it's true the SIT-1 comes to life at lower volumes and is the perfect early-morning-before-your-house-mates rise amp (and what an amp). But when the house is yours, you'll want to plug in the L2i and fly.
But what about the L2i in DHT pre mode driving the SIT-1's? Do you get the best of both worlds? No, but you get a gorgeous sound. Something I would be head over heels for if I hadn't heard the L2i going solo. I have to do a little more A/B work against the XP32 to give you comparative details.
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Yes, those were my amps. Sorry Robert didn’t know you were looking.
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debit_g
I'm not sure whether it was in this thread or somewhere else, but I read that someone was very happy pairing the Nenuphars with the Line Magnetic 845 Premium integrated. Actually I think several in their line would make good mates--damping factor won't be an issue, but you have to look for their circuits with no negative feedback. Price wise I think you're looking at $9-12K but don't quote me.
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Want to correct an error in the type of resistor mentioned above. I copied and pasted the Parts Connexion listing for the part which is actually a 1 ohm resister not a 100 ohm resistor as the listing states. Which interestingly enough brings the damping factor to 8.
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I'm reporting on impact of adding a jantzen-audio-100-ohm-10-watt-audio-grade-superes-resistor--255-944 to each of the positive speaker terms on the Vinnie Rossi L2iSE. This lowered the damping factor driving the Nenuphars from 800 to 80 and was suggested by Mr. Rossi as an experiment. Immediate impression was the overall sound just got cleaner and more relaxed. After extended listening it was obvious those impressions came from a clearer/cleaner mid range and mid bass. The lower bass also sounded slightly better, not deeper, but as if the deepest notes weren't hitting a dead end. The other clear benefit was how much better the L2iSE sounded at low volumes. Everything remained in balance at a lower spls (before the mid bass on down sounded weak). Of course I was unaware the sound could have been improved in any of these ways--except in the loss of bass playing at lower volumes (and I'm talking pretty low here, with the L2iSE volume setting at 14 or 15 instead of the 24-27 where I normally listen). It looks a little weird to have these green resistors the size of lady finger firecrackers back there and to think of this huge sound coming through their little wires wrapped around the WBT speaker terminals and the banana plugs. But there you have it, my newly hot rodded L2iSE swinging even freer than before. What if I added another resister on each side and brought the damping factor down to 8 (which is what my SIT-1s batted at)? We'll see what Vinnie says about that. (BTW I am far from qualified to be recommending that you try adding these resistors to your own amp or integrated. My gear's designer was kind enough to entertain this experiment, guiding me to make sure that nothing was shorted when I connected the resistors. If you're considering such a mod, I would first run it by your amp's manufacturer/designer.) |
charles1dad & others
According to Vinnie's email below the resistor changed the output impedance of the amp to 1 ohm and did not change the speakers' impedance. Since the stated output impedance of the L2iSE is 0.1ohm the resistor increased the output impedance by 10 times (about the limit of my math skills). After adding the resistor I did not notice having to increase volume levels, for what's that worth. Except that it sounded much better at low volumes, as mentioned before.
Hi Steve,
Glad it worked!
Can you fix a typo? It should say 1-ohm resistor (not 100 ohm)
And I meant to say that your damping factor is now 8 (not 80) - sorry!
Speaker impedance / amp output impedance = damping factor. So 8 ohm / 1 ohm = 8 Enjoy it, and thanks for sharing it!
Vinnie
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rwpollock
Look forward to hearing more!
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Not to change the subject, unless it's sound quality with the Nenuphars, but I just did something that improved the SQ more than any black or silver box or cable or cartridge I've ever tried. I changed the position of my speakers. I know, I know, ho hum, he moved them 3 inches to the left and the heavens opened up. Nope. It all started when I was reading a review of the L2iSE at I believe the Capital Audio Show. The VR was in a room with some QLN Prestige 3 speakers that were placed strangely in the room. Then last night I read a review of those speakers (very fine ones at that) and I learned the speaker designers love to set them up catty corner, firing diagonally into the room. I'd heard of one or two maniacal audiophiles doing this (on other forums of course) and thought it was well, you know, taking things too far. It's awkward as hell even if you do have a dedicated room. Especially in my relatively small parallelogram of a room (but with 14' ceilings). Anyway, I was tired of auditioning a loaner dac and just said screw it and moved things around. Holy Crap. That's all I'm going to say. Holy Crap.
S O U N D S T A G E W E N T L I K E T H I S.
And if I could make those letters taller, that too. And make them three dimensionally disappear into the background, that too. And make each one vibrate in space, that too. And then sound richer and denser, that too. Maybe your system already sounds like that without the speakers straddling one corner of the room. I'm learning.
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