True, it would be very interesting to compare those amps within the own living room. But I was already lucky enough to listen in his room’s to various systems exceeding the price of my setup many times. The only amp I had to compare in my living room against the Solistino was the Jadis DA88S. To my ears and taste I preferred the Solistino. The Solistino had a lot more meat on the bones. The upper bass and the mids where more present. The Solistino had a certain magic which the DA88S couldn’t keep up with. But this is just my personal finding and taste and doesn’t mean anything.
The rack and the structure to hold the diffuser is of course only a temporary solution. This year was crazy expensive for my standards. Have to save up a few more bugs. Until then this must be fine. ;-)
Hi greenhorn20, Nice choice of speaker color and it makes an attractive contrast to the color of the driver cone. BTW I really like the rich elegant color of the Viva Solistino. A nice room overall. Absolutes no doubt that your system sounds marvelous. Charles
Wow, the grey looks great. Probably doesn't show fingerprints or dust as much as the black and not quite as flashy as the white, but still very sharp and modern looking.
Thanks everyone on the feedback earlier. I'm really excited about getting these speakers. Maybe I'll start another thread but I'm wondering what tube amp you'd recommend up to $5k with these speakers (used options totally ok).
@abd1 Can you share more about your needs and goals?
I learned there are far more options than I expected, due to the Nenuphars being easy speakers to drive. I was skeptical that my 2A3 amp would be sufficient, yet it was and is. I would even go so far as to recommend a 45 based SET, though with some caveats. The sweet spot from a power perspective, in my opinion, are the 300B amps.
Since you are looking at tube amps, consider those with zero negative feedback (or those that use low levels of NF).
I recommend reaching out to @charles1dad who is very knowledgeable in this area.
@charles1dad Thanks! I like the contrast as well. Regarding the red Solistino, when I first saw it, my reaction was, one must be pretty brave to buy a color like this. But then, looking at it a couple of times by the dealer my mind changed completely. It looks so nice when the light in the room is low or off, and the light from the tubes hits the red color.
@abd1 Thanks! You summarized very well my thoughts. Sorry, but I do have no recommendations regarding other amps. But I have seen, every now and then, a view used Vivas in that price range out there.
@david_ten I guess I'm looking for something that's going to maximize the qualities of the speakers. Sounds like SET amps with zero feedback and great matches with these speakers. I've had Primaluna and Line Magentic tube amps in the past. I liked both. The LM was the LM-508 and it was the best sounding amp I've had. 48wpc Class A SET. However, it was a beast (hot and huge), had a bit of hum that never went away. The Primaluna was the older Dialogue One and it also sounded great, was really silent and was a bargain. I currently have a Tektron EL-84 that I could use. It's a push pull at about 10wpc and sounds really good. I know Tektron shows with Cube often. I also had an LTA Ultralinear and wish I hadn't sold it. It wasn't a good match with my speakers at the time but I wasn't planning on changing speakers so I sold it. Had I known I was going to be able to get these speakers I would've kept it. However, I would still like to try their REF40 amp. I guess I'm looking for anything that has that tube magic (texture, tone, imaging, dynamics), but also good control. Since these speakers are fairly efficient I'm open to whatever is going to deliver. I've also thought about looking for an Ayon Spitfire or Crossfire. I do have a Sachs tube preamp so I could just go with an amp, but if it's an integrated that could be ok too. A couple caveats... it has to look good as it's going in my living room and my wife needs to be happy too, and it can't be a huge monster that's nuclear hot (I have limited space). Some heat is to be expected but I want to be able to use it in the summer too. Anyway, any directions to point me in would be great. Thanks!
Hi abd1, One thing to keep in mind is you don’t require a lot of power to very effectively drive your Nenuphars. The Line Magnetic 508ia is definitely going to generate heat. The 805 is a high power DHT output tube that demands a very high voltage (1000V) power supply. 48 watts pure class A circuit is by necessity going to create some heat, that’s unavoidable.
Your current el 84 push pull amplifier should be a very good match. If interested in a SET I’d look for a really good quality 2A3, PX 25 or 3000b. The Nenuphar doesn’t require an amplifier with negative feedback (NFB) due to the very damped driver.
Compared to your current amplifier a good SET may likely provide more of the tone and texture you desire. It can possibly be more holographic and tactile in presentation as well.
These lower power DHT SETs don’t generate much heat output either. If ever there’s a good time to explore a SET amplifier you have an excellent opportunity via your Nenuphars. They are designed specifically for these SET amplifiers even though they work well with other amplifier types for certain. Charles
I’m looking for something that’s going to maximize the qualities of the speakers
@abd1 I’d start by learning how your system sounds with the Tektron EL-84s driving your Nenuphars. That may (will) help inform next steps...
If you have regrets letting your LTA amp go, I suggest bringing in a new unit to test with the Nenuphars, after the Nenuphars have 200+ hours on them. I’m not encouraging you to do so, but LTA has a generous return policy should you need to use it.
Don Sachs’ preamps are very well regarded, therefore going amplifier only (versus an integrated) is certainly an option. An integrated option is totally fine as well.
The Ayon Audio Crossfire PA Stereo amplifier is one of my own top choices to tease out how a higher power output design (30 watts) compares to my 2A3 amps (3.5 watts).
Member @mikeg used the Ayon Odin III amp in his review and is familiar with the Ayon line. I suggest reaching out to him for insight and advice, if Ayon is an option.
I concur with the entirety of Charles’ preceding post. To reinforce one point, lower output amps do not generate much heat. My solid state class A amps have been the worst offenders, when it comes to heat generation.
Final point: consider your system as a whole (panel box forward through to your room)... not just the amplifier - speaker pairing... to inform and guide your choices.
Based on reading through your posts, it’s clear you know what you are doing. Trust yourself.
Thanks for the info, I'm open to all suggestions. In terms of damping factor, I've been reading that I should look for an amp with little to no damping and 0 negative feedback. One amp I am considering is the Canary Audio M-90. It's a push/pull 300b, 24 wpc (which seems like plenty), but the damping factor is rated at 10. Is that low enough for the Nenuphars? I'm definitely not set on this amp, or any, just trying to refine a list of options so trying to determine if this amp should go on the list. Thanks.
Is there a number I should be considering as the max for damping? I don't really understand the damping rating in amps so if I had a threshold that you recommend I do not cross that would help.
I'm definitely going to start with the little EL-84 Tektron. It's around 10-15 watts and I'm using it right now with some 99db efficient speakers and it has no problem with output. I'm going to test it with some 85db standmounts that I have just to see how it handles them. Keep in mind I paid $1400 for this amp so I'm curious to see how it scales up with more expensive speakers. But it hits a lot of spots I like.... uses tubes, handmade, good quality parts, quiet (no hum or buzz), small footprint, good imaging and spacious sound, good dynamics and detail, smooth even sound (nothing sounds out of proportion), looks good (happy wife) in an artisan/eclectic kind of way. I plan on using this initially while I search for more a flagship amp and then putting this in my office. I'm curious to try a 300b amp, either SET or PP. But I'm pretty open as long as it has the tube magic I love, looks good, and fits in my space.
I believe in quality parts, monoblocks, and overbuilt power supplies, but also simple, well-known circuits without negative feedback that can be implemented cheaply. Most of those set circuits were fully detailed/explored decades ago and modern flagships are just very careful/thoughtful instantiations. All that's to say that you may find your little tekton hanging right along with much more expensive offerings.
Would the Allnic T1500 integrated 300b SET Amp work well?
Key Features:
• 10 watts per channel of pure class A high power output. The T-1500 MK2 is a single ended, stereo integrated amplifier. Almost all other 300B amplifiers are under, and distortion, driven. This is a result of the use of conventional “Resister-Capacitor” circuits, which give only up to around a 70V swing voltage, with high distortion. This means that an already distorted signal of a lower than optimum swing voltage is directed to the deep biased 300B grid. Allnic’s powerful “Inductor Drive” circuit gives up to a 150V swing voltage, with very low distortion (about 0.3%). It is this drive delivered to the T-1500 MK2 that allows for a higher output (10w) with much less distortion than can be expected from standard 300B circuits.
• Real power drive. The drive tube, 6SN7 is a moderate-mu (about 20) twin triode. We use this to drive the 300B’s via a choke plate inductor. Our choke inductor (100% nickel permalloy PC core) has very low power loss and infinitely high load impedance. This configuration is an ideal drive stage for 300B SET. And as the first tube, a twin triode 6SL7, has a very high-mu (about 70), the T-1500 MK2 has a total gain of +35dB.
• Nickel alloy output transformer. Allnic uses sophisticated ratio mixed nickel permalloy PB cored output transformers. Because of their extremely high initial permeability, it is possible to use fewer turns on the primary winding while retaining very high ‘open circuit inductance”. That means a resulting very wide frequency range and low distortion bass response. This is another reason why the T-1500 MK2 excels over other 300B integrated amplifiers. Allnic also uses a very big nickel core, so as not to be magnetically saturated at a high current level of 100mA.
• Long life and trouble-free operation. Allnic employs a “soft start circuit” to protect the tubes and other parts. It applies the high B+ voltage only after tubes are fully warmed-up.
• Self-bias control grid.
• Analog Power Tube Current Monitors. Allnic uses analog current meters to display the condition of each channel’s power tube. The meters make it exceptionally easy to see the status of each tube at any time and offer a simple, unambiguous indication of each tube’s status compared to conventional LED bias monitors.
• Natural negative feedback. The T-1500 MK2 applies about -6dB of negative feedback. This is a very complimentary amount of negative feedback that differentiates the Allnic 300B single ended amplifier from the standard, which has a very coloured and weak speaker driving force. With this natural feedback, the T-1500 MK2 has a relatively high “damping factor’, very low distortion, and a higher S/N ratio, without losing the signature single ended natural sound quality.
• We use a NEW remote controlled high quality 41 step silver contact attenuator Ver.2 (all resistors non-inductive) instead of a carbon filmed slide potentiometer.
• Beautiful 20KHz square wave response.
Technical Specifications:
Output Power: 10w + 10w (4, 8 or 16Ω load, at 1KHz)
Distortion: 0.3% at 1KHz, 2.83V
Frequency Response: 20Hz – 20KHz Flat
S/N Ratio: -80dB (CCIR, 1KHz)
Damping Factor: 10 at 8Ω load at 1KHz
Voltage gain: +35dB
Input Impedance: 10KΩ (single-ended, unbalanced)
Input Sensitivity: 230mV for rated power
Tubes: 300B X 2 (power triode), 6SL7(6N9P) x 1 (First tube), 6SN7 x 1 (Second tube)
Fuses: AC Mains – 3A / 250V (110W) (two supplied – one is a spare). Tubes -0.5A, 250V, 20mm glass type
Dimensions: (W x D x H) 430mm x 380mm x 240mm (17 x 15 x 9.5 in)
Based on the provided specifications (Modest level of NFB =6 and relatively low damping factor=10 and probably less into the 6 ohm Nenuphar) suggest a favorable match with the Nenuphars. Charles
@david_ten - Not decided yet, still trying to make my mind up and and save up some money OR more accurately have the confidence to spend the money in these uncertain times.
And also the confidence to spend a large amount of money on a speaker I haven’t actually heard/demo.
There is a listing for the EM/IA Permalloy 50/300B monoblock amps and power supply at USAudiomart. The Listing Title is: "Jeffrey Jackson (Experience Music) 300b Type 50 Switchable amp"
Jon Ver Halen, the Cube Audio Importer, used the Type 50 version to drive and showcase the Nenuphar Minis at Capital Audiofest 2019.
Hi keithr, Why would that be the case? This contrary to what the Nenuphar designer and builder Grzegorz Ruika has stated publicly on several occasions. Low power SET with zero or low NFB were the intended type of amplifier to pair with. Is your concern the 300b or that it's an integrated amplifier? Charles
I acquired a Canary M90 push pull 300b amp that I’m going to try. It sounds great so far with some 85db 8ohm stand mounts that I have and that’s not an optimal pairing. Looking forward to how it sounds with the Nenuphar Mini’s.
Charles, in my high efficiency speaker experience I consider 845s or push/pull triode to be more ideal for this efficiency level. Running low watt SET at high levels yields more distortion. Ymmv.
Hi keithr, If I'm correct your experience with high sensitivity and efficient speakers has been predominantly Zu Audio.i am not questioning your encounters with them and various amplifiers. I believe that the Cube Audio Nenuphar though not as sensitive as the Zu are an easier load to drive in real life/actual use.
People seem to have more success with low power SET driving Nenuphars compared to these same amplifiers paired with some Zu models. I believe that Srajan Ebaen alluded to this observation in his 6 Moons review of the Nenuphar. I understand that its 92 db sensitivity may lead some to question compatibility with low power SET amplifiers. Numerous reviews and owners feedback say otherwise. Charles
At many audio shows, the Zu Audio room features their models playing hard rock and metal music playing at extremely high volume. The speakers are quite capable at delivering at high volume levels.
Full range single driver systems cannot deliver that kind of volume level (the Nenuphars delivered plenty volume for my particular taste) and actually excel at delivering a vibrant sound at quite low volume levels. Although they are not particularly efficient, they are probably efficient enough for use with some SET amplifiers if one does not demand extreme volume output or use in a very large room.
Use with a single-ended 300B amp? I don't know, I never heard them used with that kind of amplifier. But, I guess they are not well suited for smaller single-ended amps, like those running 45s, given my experience with a 99 db/w 8ohm speaker (I've run this speaker with pushpull 45s, parallel SET 2a3s and pushpull 349s; single ended 45s were okay, but marginal with certain kinds of music).
The OP of this thread david_ten uses the Found Music 2A3 SET mono blocks with stellar performance results. No doubt room size and ultimate listening levels are variables. Cube Audio pairs the Nenuphar with 45 and 2A3 SET amplifiers (Usually Tektron brand) at audio shows throughout Europe. These pairings consistently receive high praise. Charles
Any Nenuphar owners in NC, Virginia, SC or Georgia? I’m really interested, but need to hear them in person before making a decision. Of course I’ll wear a mask. Thanks,
@david_ten The speakers are supposed to arrive early-mid December. At least to the distributor. So I'm hoping to have them mid-late December. I'm very excited. So far I'm using the amp with my 85db standmounts and it has zero issues driving them. It's a push pull 300b creating 26wpc/8ohm. It does help that I'm using a pair of REL T5i's for the bass, but this amp is far from wimpy. I was lucky that the unit I purchased came with some nice tubes already. Vocals are so lifelike with this amp. Midrange is gorgeous as well. Its pretty dead quiet and effortless. My wife said this combo I'm using sounds so good why do I need new speakers. It does sound really good, but can't wait for her to hear the Nenuphar Minis. I'm planning on starting out w/o the subs. I don't think I'll need them with the Minis, but I've been really impressed with these subs and I generally don't use subs with 2-channel.
Did anyone try LTA Z10 with the Cubes ? I hope it has enough to power the Nenuphars. The spec doesn't list much details but folks at LTA said they use low -ive feedback and low DF. Anyone have compared the Z10 to a SIT-3 ?
Why is a low damping factor (high output impedance) desirable for these speakers? Is the frequency response change from the high output impedance and the impedance curve of the speaker a favorable interaction?
As a fan of low output tube amps, many of which have typically high output impedance (low damping factor), I generally don't find low damping factor to be a big deal, but, I never thought of it as a positive attribute.
@doni Don, if you haven't done so, I suggest reaching out to Jon Ver Halen, the US importer for Cube Audio. He may be able to connect you with a client in your area should the client be willing, given the current situation.
Larry, The damping factor and amplifier output impedance considerations were discussed in ample detail in the original Nenuphar review in 6 Moons several years ago. The driver designer and builder explains why this approach was chosen. Probably explained on their website as well. Charles
I just spoke to Jon very very nice person to talk to, Iam interested to audition 2 of his Speaker, maybe next week , since we are both busy at this time.I live maybe 45 minutes from Him.
Bon, thanks! Cool. Say Hi to Jon from me. Looking forward to hearing your take on the Magus and Nenuphar Mini speakers. Your amps will be a nice pairing!
At the risk of straying too far afield from the subject of this thread-- although really isn’t the subject the Nenuphar speakers and how to optimize them?--I want to report on an optimizer that’s a little further down the chain of the typical pairing of amps and/or pre amps. Just to remind folks I drive my N’s with the Vinnie Rossi L2i-SE (which bested by a surprising margin the LTA Ultralinear and First Watt SIT-3 and SIT-1 amps) and remain impressed if not overwhelmed by the synergy. (I see some folks here considering pre and amp combo’s that are about the price of the VR and would just say to put it on your radar.) In fact I was in that happy state of "it can’t get better than this" (a state where you should drop all your audiophile acquaintances and vendor relationships if you want to preserve it), when a friend brought over a power cable he said I had to hear. It was a Shunyata Omega QR 15 amp power cord as thick as a summer sausage. And it retails for $7.5K! This thing which is both a power conditioner and cable incorporating a bunch of technologies I thoroughly don’t understand, immediately raised the optimization bar of the Nenuphar’s by--I don’t know how to put it, a component, a mile, by more than anything except adding the VR? Even then I’m not sure, it was like adding another VR, just made everything BETTER BY A BUNCH. Bring out all the superlatives in the audiophile handbook (including where the bottom part of your face hits the floor) and add in something uncanny that had to do with speed and pace that focused my interest with a life like quality I’d never heard before. How good are the Nenuphar speakers? So good that changing that 6 feet of wire between your wall outlet and your amp could make them sound even bigger, more alive and life-like than you had heretofore thought possible. So far the Nenuphars have followed my dream and my pocket book as far as the two might take them.
Hi Stephen, Thanks as always for providing your listening impressions and observations. I've been involved in enough cable comparisons over the years and know without question the positive impact high quality cables can impart in an audio system.
I acknowledge there are those who would write off what you've heard and refuse to believe that cables/conditioners are capable of providing this degree of sonic impact. That's their problem, not yours. I have no doubt that your system is sounding simply marvelous. You continue to discover how exceptional the Nenuphars truly are. Charles
Well guys, I heard the Boenicke W13 and it wasn’t my cup of tea. I’m now looking to hear the Nenuphar and Fyne Audio - anyone hear both? I heard the big Tannoy Westminster recently which stoked my interest in the latter.
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