@david_ten, Thanks for asking. Yes, pretty much, especially when stephen dunn chimed in and said that his Vinny Rossi integrated sounded even better when he put resistors into lower the damping factor. Still curious about the Bakoon. I have not been able to find a figure on the web for its damping factor, but it's unique Satri circuit could have something to do with it. Seems like low damping factor is a good rule of thumb, though there may always be outliers.
@stephendunn Keen to try your resistor solution for the VR L2iSE. Can you pls share model of resistor Vinnie recommended, how to install, any precautions etc. If you could add a photo that would be great. Thx!
@paullb Paul, you are welcome! Richard( @toetapaudio ) may be able to help out with more information on Bakoon. He is a Bakoon dealer and has the most experience, among those posting here, pairing it with the Cube Audio line.
@vinpic If memory serves, I think you are one of the first to post ownership experience with the Nenuphar Monitors in combination with a Cube Audio Sub.
The comparative perspective coming from the standard Nenuphars is really cool and significant, as is your varied experience with some excellent amplifier pairings. I'm looking forward to the results with your inbound Valvet amp.
Thanks for sharing your setup and what's been working and preferred by you. Great information for those following this thread. - David.
vinpic Vinnie suggested the jantzen-audio 1.0-ohm audio grade superes resistor (bought from Parts ConneXion) which I initially installed by fastening one of its wires to the positive WBT speaker posts on my L2i-SE with the other end of wire wrapped around banana plugs of positive speaker cables. We agreed that the banana plug connection needed to be improved, so I bought two WBT terminals, the resistor wire now being screwed down securely with the banana plugs inserted into the WBT.
At the suggestion of someone--I can't remember--I changed out the janzten audio resistors for a pair of 1RO +/-5% 10W Silver/Graphite Dueland resistors which provided the deep satisfaction of having spent more $ and improving aesthetics but to little if any noticeable improvement in SQ over the janzten resistors. Someone else said that the top of the line Mundorf resistor would be even better but I haven't pursued that possibility.
FWIW my L2i-SE runs Elrog 300b tubes as its DHTs. I have been superbly happy with these, but just to scratch the phantom itch have ordered Linlai 2A3 tubes (on back order), which beat out Srajan's preferred tube in his VR L2 pre amp.
Although the VR L2i-SE was handily my preference over the SIT-3 and SIT-1 amplifiers with my Nenuphars based on overall SQ and likeness to live music, it has the added benefit of playing better at low volumes than the two First Watters. I'm wondering if you've noticed this too? Maybe has to do with increased power? Don't know enough about the chemistry of what makes a good low volume amp/speaker set up.
Thank you Stephen. I love the Elrog tubes but do most of my VR listening with the TAK300B (probably due to system tuning/preference). Keep us posted on your Linlai experience... The VR is amazing at driving my Lawrence Audio Double Bass or Albedo Aptica but for the Nenuphars my poison of choice is the SIT3 or the Bakoon. Look forward to experiment with the resistors on ...
The Valvet E2se arrived last night. It’s still in early run-in mode but it’s potential with the Nenuphars it’s clear and exciting. Despite it’s 12W/8ohms rating it punches above its weight and features quite a stunning ‘presence’, reminding me the type of drive & authority that the likes of the Ypsilon Phaeton are capable of. More in a couple of weeks after proper run-in but I thought you’d appreciate the update.
@vinpic Thanks for the update. Comparing it to the Ypsilon Phaeton says a lot!
Valvet’s AE4s are on my radar to explore / experience a higher watt and solid state pairing for the Nenuphars; and to serve as a ’book end’ in terms of differences from my 2A3 amps.
Looking forward to your updates as you run the E2SEs in.
@david_ten So did you just wrap the adhesive discs around the hemisphere threads and insert? I have the hemispheres but haven't installed and still using the stock rubber bumpers. Where did you get the discs? Thanks.
If not returnable, you could cut the threaded section. If it is an insert, you can remove it and use the adhesive disc (which will cover the insert hole).
This is an amber alert regarding using resistors between positive side of speaker cables and the VR L2iSE output terminals. I just removed my Dueland 1ohm resistors--put in place to lower dampen factor--and realized a big jump in sound quality, specifically in the highs which improved imaging, depth and detail. This was not a subtle change. When I originally installed the resistors I was using Synergistic Foundation speaker cables and the improvements the resistors made was tangible, easy to hear. But when I replaced those cables with Shunyata Alpha NR2 cables I simply installed them with the resistors assuming the same benefits would apply. I was very wrong. For whatever reason, the Alpha's increased resistance, the different technology Shunyata uses, whatever, the resistors actually hurt the SQ. So vinpic and others who might be considering using resistors in this manner, please be aware that the improvement may heavily depend on the type of speaker cable you are using. When I installed the Alpha speaker cables at first with the resistors I heard so many changes/improvements that I didn't think to try them without the resistors. I only removed them now out of simple curiosity to be able to talk about their benefits.
Stephen, What you discovered makes sense. Your two different speaker cables could have relative meaningful differences in their gauge, resistance and capacitance. These variables could definitely affect/ impact the total amount of the damping factor (DF). The final DF value factors in speaker impedance and speaker cable contributions (And obviously amplifier output impedance) . Just goes to show how valuable our ears are. You clearly heard a change. Charles
And most critically for the objectivist "it's all in your head" crowd, the change was contrary to the previously developed preferences and expectations.
Sure, you could also blame a bad mood at the time of testing, but in line with Charles' sentiment, it's clear that our ears are meant for hearing and they do a wonderful job. (Despite the constant biasing influence of extra-auditory factors)
Please give the SE version PLENTY of time to break in. Several hundred hours or more, at least. This is from experience.
I had already listed mine for sale and made a deal when that magical moment arrived. I did not want to break my promise but will consider replacing it when the time is right.
I don't know how it will pair on the Core Audio speakers but it is an absolutely wonderful and amazing amp.
I've been trying out a new pair of Nenuphars for about a week now and I'm mighty impressed. I'll chime in more as I find the words to describe what I'm hearing. I'll just mention for now that I'm powering the Nenuphars with a pair of Thoress EHT mono blocks. These amps are somewhat under the radar (they're pricey and don't seem to have much retail support in the US) but Ebaen reviewed them at 6moons in combination with the Nenuphars and used some striking language to describe the pairing. He rates the EHTs as a better match for the Cubes than the FW SIT1 monos.
FWIW I can see what he's talking about. I compared the EHTs with a SIT3 and found the difference to be profound (much as I love the SIT3). For now I'm still working on getting speaker placement and room treatments dialed in(at 20 sq meters my room is at the bottom end of the range for these speakers as specified by Cube Audio). so, more to come.
Thanks to all here for a refreshingly good thread!
Great info Jolly. Ive dealt with Audio Arts in NYC (Thoress dealer) before and Gideon is a pleasure to do business with. I might just have to inquire about the F2A11 or 845 Thoress Integrateds.....not a 300B kind of guy.
@jollytinker, Congratulations on your excellent outcome. I recall reading the 6 Moons review of the Thoress amplifier. No doubt about Srajan Ebaen's admiration for the unit. Charles
@cal3713 thanks for pointing out the typo! I should've checked it.
@stephendunn I'll keep you posted as I make progress on the room treatment. I'm trying to be minimalist about it because the room has to double as a living room so I don't want to overwhelm the space with audio gear (though I probably lost that battle already...). The main issue is that the room has 10' ceilings and big windows so there's quite a bit of high frequency ringing in addition to the usual low/mid boominess. I put a 6' piece of homasote board on one large, empty wall which helped calm things down. Also I bought a few pieces of 4" thick rock wool insulation to experiment. Last night I put pieces of the insulation at the first reflection points and that made a noticeable and positive difference, more so than in the back corners, but it also felt a bit overdamped to me. So I can see the point of products like the Stillpoints Apertures that do a mix of absorption and diffusion.
btw I didn't mean to sound too fanboyish in my previous post - just thought the EHTs deserve a mention and i'd love to hear from anyone else who has experience with them. They're the only Thoress amps I've heard and they're the kind of component that just has an certain "rightness" about the sound.
I'd never heard of the amps and always enjoy reading about anything new that's carefully made. Whatever you think about 6moons, you've got to appreciate the concerted effort to show internals and discuss design decisions. At least there's some objective information there to learn from and use to supplement the usual subjective adjectives.
Robert I did listen to the VR L2i SE driving the SIT-1's though its DHT preamp stage with the ELROG 300bs. It improved the SIT's soundstage and it's lower mid-range very slightly from the PL XP-32 which I thought was heaven with the SIT-1s. But the L2i-SE straight up beat out the XP-32/SIT-1 combo with more extended and open highs, a more detailed lower mid-range and more powerful and tuneful bass (I took notes.) Overall it sounded more present and dynamic, closer to live music. It was not a difference you had to A/B to get the gist of. I was shocked, thinking I was doing my dealer friend a favor by giving the VR a spin with the Nenuphar's. He was just curious.
I’ve got about 60 hours on the speakers now and I can report that I don’t hear any "lowther shout." The top end was pretty strident at first but it now sounds very natural. The bass at first was MIA but now it’s coming in nicely. I wonder if the youtube videos that seemed to reproduce a ’shouty’ sound were made with newer speakers that weren’t fully broken in?
Would love to hear your comparison and thoughts on the Bakoon vs. the Valvet. I've had the SIT3 before and found it a bit dark/earthy for my taste. If I could get my hands on a SIT2 or 1s - I believe that would be more to my taste. Cheers.
Have about fifty hours on my new Linlai 2A3 tubes running in the DHT pre-amp section of my Vinnie Rossi L2i-SE integrated. While there may still be break in improvements to come, I feel confident in saying that these are remarkable tubes that easily beat out the Elrog 300bs I had been running. I agree with Srajan's assessment of their particular qualities in his review, but would like to add two dimensions of their character that he didn't mention. First, the Linlai 2A3 give acoustically recorded music a tactile quality I've never heard before. The sensation of fingers on strings and frets, fingers on keyboards, drumsticks on drum skins, etc. is both delicate and pronounced, which helps put the music more 3 dimensionally in the room. Second, tonal accuracy along with depth and purity is the most engrossing I've encountered with any tube. But without cloying euphonics. As a side note, the tube's output is substantially greater than that of the ER 300bs, at least in terms of where the volume control now likes to sit. Lots of other good qualities but I would just be paraphrasing what Srajan has already said.
@stephendunn Stephen, terrific impressions and results regarding the Linlai 2A3 tubes in your specific application. Your feedback seals it for me...I'll plan on ordering a pair for my new amps at a later date.
Curious: Are you listing your VR integrated? If so, what are your plans for a replacement?
David, not sure how I gave the impression I was moving on from the VR L2i-SE. Have zero plans for replacement especially after installing the Linlai 2A3 tubes. It's position is almost as steadfast as that of the Nenuphar's, especially after auditioning some very impressive Stenheim 3 Way Speakers at my local dealers. They were great speakers, don't get me wrong, but their perspective was mid row orchestra while the Nenuphars are front to fifth row or in the club or studio. Something very live about how they position you to the music which the Stenheims couldn't duplicate. So, no, the only change I might consider is upgrading my Totaldac d-1 dual. But so far the four or five contenders I've had in the listening room couldn't beat it. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
cal3713 Have certainly read impressive things about the Aries-cerat new dac. Not sure if I could finagle a home audition though and I no longer buy anything without.
I have researched the SW1X dacs and have come close to ordering the SW1X Dac 3 Balanced (they do have a return policy) but have hesitated because of it's lack of DSD processing. Probably wouldn't miss it.
My local dealer is now representing Analog Domain, so their dac maybe my next audition when he gets it in. Some say it was as good as the MSB Select at a recent audio show.
I’m currently using an Allnic D5000 DHT dac which I’ve had for nearly three years now and have been very happy with it.
The original early models used to chew through tubes a bit but that was later rectified (pun intended) with an upgrade and the later models didn’t suffer with that problem.
It received a glowing review on Stereophile then managed to achieve the worst test results of any component ever tested in the lab which was later put down to a bad tube.
The review unit was sold on and it was never re-tested by Stereophile so it now has a dubious and mythical status.
As we all know some things can’t be tested in a lab.
There was also talk of a new unit coming out to replace it but as yet nothing has emerged from KS Park’s workshop.
Anyway, as I said I’ve been very happy with it and I have great synergy with a balanced connection to my Allnic T2000 integrated KT150 tube amp.
Thanks for your input. Right now my plate runneth over: I'm awaiting the arrival of the latest Concert Fidelity Dac as well as the Analog Domain Dac1.
But my latest addition of the Innuos PhoenixNet conditioning the Ethernet signal between wall and Antipodes DX has bumped streaming and even file playback (I know that doesn't make sense at first) a fair level. I've never had anything between my workaday modem/router and the DX and it shows.
Hi David. I'm still waiting on delivery of those dacs to audition. I'm hoping at least one arrives before I take off June 1 for a couple of months.
But I did have the chance to audition the Pass Labs INT 25 in my system. As many know, this is a highly touted integrated that some believe, with the right speakers, can deliver audio-nervosa-curing sound. Steve Huff, who said he would never get rid of this VR L2i-SE actually did sell it after deciding the INT 25 was his new desert island amp (driving the Heresy IV's). Not to make a long story of a short audition, the INT 25 sounded terrible with the Nenuphar's. I would go so far as to say it sounded broken. The bass was only there at higher volumes, the mid range was dead flat and, worst of all, the high end sounded metallic and completely airless. Ouch. I had done a little homework about the INT 25's specs and although I failed to locate its output impedance, I did find an interview with Nelson Pass where he said it had low output impedance, which sounded hopeful. But it does have a unique form of feedback (which I don't understand) that might be the culprit. The one positive thing I can say about the amp is that you could hear its much admired detail. Horses for courses, since I don't doubt this is a wonderful, even magic amp with the right speakers.
But another amp I am curious about, which might be a better technical match, is the 50w Gryphon Essence. I have zero qualms with my VR L2i-SE (especially with the new LinLai 2A3 tubes) but I am always curious.
Anybody that follows HUFF knows whatever he currently has is the Best he’s ever had and doesnt feel the need to ever change anything...then does 3-4 weeks later. Guessing he sold the ROSSI when he moved and needed to raise cash. Dont think ANYBODY believes the INT 25 is better than the VR....including Huff. Guarantee he didnt do any Tube Swapping either to enhance the performance even more. Should have my Blue Nenuphar Mini’s by the end of the month.
Hi @stephendunn, I always appreciate your listening impressions and comments on this forum. I tend to fall in line with riaa_award and his comments regarding Steve Huff. He seems like a nice guy but his reviews of audio products do tend to fit the pattern articulated by riaa_award. In audio much is possible but I’d be surprised if the Pass integrated amplifier out performed the Vinnie Rossi hybrid amplifier driving the Nenuphars. Charles
Thanks Charles, I too enjoy your input, which reflects a lot more accumulated knowledge than I have about our hobby (I almost said sport, moving/auditioning a lot of equipment can give it that edge).
And yes, riaa_award, I think you're spot on regarding Huff (he did sell the VR to help finance a move) and every other month comes a once in a lifetime component. However, I'm a sucker for his enthusiasm and no doubt heart-felt certainty he's just stumbled on sliced bread. I read too many reviews where I'm at a loss whether the item reviewed even elicited an emotional response (the purpose of music think some). If I'm left wondering, probably not.
First of all as someone else has mentioned, I find this thread very helpful, civilized and amazed that people are so respectful to each other’s opinion/suggestions. Kudos to everyone on this thread!
My current speakers are Coincident Super Victory IIIs and I am strongly considering the Nenuphars. Nothing wrong with my current speakers but I am looking for wider soundstage and increased depth and details in low level listening.
My room dimensions are Height - 7’10 Width - 15’7 Length - 18 feet
I have some treatments in the room. My preamp is EAR Yoshino 868PL and power amp is Simaudio Moon.
I heard the speakers briefly at my dealer but going to audition more seriously soon. My guess is that if I do fall in love and decide to get it, I would have to change my power amp.
I am new to tubes and having a tube pre is more than enough for me. Do I have to get a tube amp for the Nenuphars? Apart from the Bakoon and SIT-3 mentioned here, are there other SS amps that I should consider? Given my room dimensions, will the Nenuphars work?
@sim_audio_nerd Wonderful to hear the thread has been helpful!!!
Yes, regarding: "Given my room dimensions, will the Nenuphars work?"
No, regarding: "Do I have to get a tube amp for the Nenuphars?" However, [in my personal opinion] tube amplification is the way to go with respect the Nenuphars.
There are trade-offs with either approach. Matching YOUR needs and preferences should take priority.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
