Convincing your local dealer to let you try speakers at home

so sorry, that was '.....marginally felt advantages....' ; )

@kevn thanks for explaining your position; it's very thoughtful and I need to reflect a bit on it. My first thought, which I'll offer tentatively, is that it makes sense insofar as the fine car is already put together, where an audio system is not -- you're right about that! At the same time, the elements of what make the car a good one would require learning and there would need to be learning, too, to know how that car fits my terrain, my driving style and expectations, my expectations of driving experience. Same with golf clubs, though there the parallel with audio is an easier fit insofar as the set of clubs need to be put together -- for my body, skill level, etc.

So, I guess, on first pass, the circumstances between audio and those other product purchases (need to make an educated and "right fit" decision) seem similar enough to argue that if one pays a fee for audio, one should pay a fee for the others. In my own view, no fee should be paid because it's just part of the sales job and whatever the costs are can be amortized into the purchase price.

Take care, and thanks for your nice reply.

Not being a hi fi dealer but a wholesaler to them, I can tell you that every single time I loan pair of speakers to anyone, no matter how skilled, the speakers come back with some form of damage.  Especially if they are shipped.   Enough damage that I can no longer sell them as new and must discount them by 10% to account for damage.  The cost is real for the dealer and he cannot pass this cost on.  

No one blames the user, we all know this happens, but nonetheless you can't loan all your new speakers out for trial as your entire inventory is damaged. Some dealers do this by having a dedicated loaner inventory.  Or are good about having enough sales that they can sell off the "B Stock" as they go, and keep shipping new stock.  But it's worth considering that demoing a 50,000 pair of speakers in your room will cost someone 5,000.   This is why not everyone does it.  

Brad

@kevn 

+1 Also a great approach… offer to pay. This way no one looses. 
 

The automotive analogy does not work. This is a high volume / value business and driving from the lot and returning. My Toyota dealers sells several cars a day… so ~ $200K or more a day. Completely different business and set of circumstances.

"demoing a 50,000 pair of speakers"

that is a different ball game than the speakers most people plan to buy: the 500 to 5000 ones. I don't think in this thread most people ever alluded to 50K speakers

Also, I never damaged anything that I sent back. Not a scratch. It's not hard. I am the clumsiest person I know. 

@hilde45  - you're so welcome, hilde ; ) - with deeper consideration, I hope you too come to see how different the test drive of a performance car, or any other fully developed system for an experience is, to that of a single hifi component : ) I must also tell you, about a week and a bit ago, I made an offer of usd250 to audition a wolf von langa son (usd16000 msrp thereabouts) in my listening space, to learn if what I had read about it as a smallish field coil speaker was accurate, not necessarily for an actual purchase, but to just learn everything I could about it. And realised after that not only was almost everything reviewed on it spot on, it also had greater and more accurate depth of soundfield than my current single driver full range speaker - the realism on these field coil speakers, and its dynamism, is unbelievable. I ended up trading/buying something I had auditioned on a hunch to better understand the strengths of my current speaker, in comparison -  and instead discovered the greater strengths of something else : ) - paid auditions reap unexpected benefits aside from learning : )

I try to avoid the odd confrontational stance buyers generally have with dealers - I do not begrudge them any profit they attempt to maximise, and in doing so, attempt to subvert the paradigm, in making friendships of trust rather than relationships of business. In trust, a speaker or preamplifier can be left a week for a true audition. It is a trust that can be bought, but only through that first offer of sincerity, an offer that acknowledges the huge effort any audition requires. It is a trust that can only begin by putting one's money where one's mouth is, I suppose. The lovely byproduct of this has been huge savings off the msrp in the end, and in most cases.

@ghdprentice you know, theres this crazy thing how little we understand, as a global culture, about what we truly value. I have asked a question of the many people I've met (fewer of whom are audiophiles than anything else), of what they would sacrifice first; personal mobility in the form of a private car to drive, or the privilege of listening to music. The answer is inevitably the car. Almost everyone I've ever spoken to would rather drop their daily driver (never mind a performance car) in adoption of public transport, than sacrifice the ability for listening to music.

We innately and generally value music and its listening far more than our private cars, but take its accessibility and our amazing ability to listen for granted, it seems.

I will pay so much more for anything that I value this much; for this crazy stupidly beautiful electromagnetic world of boxes, wires, plugs, resonant air and auditions, to learn about something I could never exchange for almost anything, not for the vehicular convenience of grocery shopping, nor the sheer pleasure of driving and drifting the greatest performance cars in the world. ; )

In friendship, kevin.

I think another solution to the auditioning issue is to load up a large truck with facsimiles of your listening space furnishings and hifi gear and bring all of it into an audio shop, arrange the furniture (and portable walls with windows if needed) in the shop with your gear and plug in the speakers. Also you can take a large motor home with your stuff arranged inside, park at an audio store, and convince the place to let you take things out to the parking lot. Problem solved.

@wolf_garcia That is another solution. Clearly, the possibilities are endless.

@wolf_garcia I think you missed the last step: buy the hifi store, preferably next to a furniture store and you can then arrange it any way you want. When you want to take something home, you would just remind yourself: "this is my home" 

@grislybutter You guys are being awfully mean to me, but let me be the first to admit I probably deserve it. ;-) 

@hilde45 I meant no harm or disrespect to you. Your question and dilemma is fun and valid and helpful to a lot of us. I was just silly and made fun of @wolf_garcia 

@hilde45 I have 2 local dealers that I work with. Now I did not always have sales history with these folks, so when I was in the market I explained I wanted to demo the equipment in my listening space. I let them process a deposit and come to my home and set the speakers up,also did this with amps, etc.

After spending some cash with these guys the are open to demos in my home. I also have a dealer in Nashville that sends me gear to demo. I pay shipping and insurance. 85% of the time I end up buying from Constantine. 
 

Hope this helps and please excuse any typos.  Bottom line just ask.

@jerryg123 Sure does help. Thank you!

@grislybutter No worries -- we're good. I'm in a light hearted holiday mood and that's how I'm taking these comments! Peace and good humor to all of us! This is fun!

“This is fun!”
@hilde45

Except it isn’t! IME, due to their sheer size, speakers presents the biggest challenge. I regularly go to audio shows for first hand feel on what’s new and which gear worth auditioning in my home. I know, I know, the rooms are not perfect and so on, but there isn’t another venue I know of where one get to see, admire and enjoy the wide selection of gear.

What say you, will I see you at AXPONA in 2023?

@hilde45 seeing the picture of the dealer and your listening space, you want a home demo!

That is an awful space at that dealer.

right try borrowing that 993 Turbo for track day weekend….. and yes… The Devore is also art…

my X-50 did require a signed purchase agreement before a test drive…..

@kevn u seem like a lucid dude - welcome :-)

@kevn 

Definitely the right way to approach dealers.

I do most of my grocery shopping on my bicycle. Sometimes I don’t drive for two weeks or more. Cars are not important for me either.

This is what I'm bringing to my dealer soon....

@kevn 

Great post! I couldn’t agree with you more on the importance of auditioning gear (even at a cost of nominal fee). Like you, I recently auditioned WVL SON, my first experience with a field coil speakers. The experience was other worldly, the realism and room filling sound from relatively tiny speakers. I kept looking for subwoofers in the room :-) I liked the fact that SON comes with constant current field coil power supply with adjustable settings for further fine tuning. A true high end sound at a bargain price of $18K.

@lalitk Sure, see you at Axpona! (Actually, I've never been to an audio show. The RMAF was cancelled just as I was getting into the hobby seriously.)

@jerryg123 There's a local guy in Denver who invited me to hear his Devores in a 12x15 room (with tube amps) so that will be a much better auditioning environment.

@hilde45 that is awesome. Bring a bottle of wine, very kind of him.

Better than that old furniture store...

@rsf507 

OK, that is really cool. If I was into cars and wealthy that is right up my alley. The perfect transportation to transport my transportation around. 

My dealer has let me demo speakers, turntables , subs, DACS.  They even let me demo a pair of Focal and Sonus Faber at the same time.  But I dont ever do it unless I am committed to buy from them and they know that.  I would never demo and then buy used.  I have demoed and not purchased but its rare (just wasn't compelled enough to upgrade) .   I did ask a dealer in Denver to demo an amp a few years back But he knew me from a previous shop and he also wanted to drop the amp off because he too had suffered damage loaning stuff out. 

In addition to the damage issue, the loss of a demo model while a speaker is being used in a home trial, the main problem is that most customers cannot take a speaker home for  quick trial that is fair--it takes a lot of experience, experimentation, room treatment, etc., to make a speaker work right, so how can one do a meaningful in-home test over a day or two? 

One of my local dealers offers to do the setup at the customer's home.  I don't think there is a fee involved, at least for regular customers, unless the circumstances are extraordinary (he has travelled long distances and stayed over night to do some setups).  Even a quick setup of the speakers typically involves at least three hours of moving the speakers around and listening.  I know stuff that does not work out gets returned to the dealer, but, I don't know what is the financial arrangement.  This dealer does a lot of horse trading to make things work out for his customers--he takes trade-ins, including non-audio items that are truly weird--cars, big game rifles, vintage chess sets, watches, etc.

@hilde45 

My greatest concern with a home demo is perception.  You obviously really like these speakers and I submit that they would have to sound pretty bad in your space for you to return them.  As many have stated above, pick up late Saturday and return early Tuesday is not enough time to make a fair (to you) judgement. I would hope that the audition be at least a week. 

Lest we forget that old beast confirmation bias!

Warm Regards,

barts

@barts You make a good point.

Seen from a bit of a distance, it's a weird issue. TMR, Crutchfield, Audio Advisor, Upscale, and many others allow between 14 to 60 days to audition speakers. They all have the same problems a local dealer would -- concerns about damage, etc. They all can get a guarantee in writing with a credit card. And they do give a fair amount of time to audition. But you're right -- borrowing a speaker for 3 days? Hard to know how helpful that is. And these are $13k speakers. They really deserve a proper trial. 

Just to be clear -- I know what my options are. Talk to them. Ask them. Express my commitment to buying from them. Etc. It's the nature of these threads to solve the OP's problem over and over again. That's why I asked for people's stories about their own trials.  I do appreciate all the advice, that said.

Just relating my own experience:

For the most part I have tended to buy speakers second hand to try out, sell them if I don’t like them or tire of them.

However I have had a few in home auditions. One, long ago were Von Schweikert VR 4 Gen 2 speakers, which I ended up buying. The most recent in home audition was actually several years ago: My local Joseph Audio dealer let me do an in home audition of the Perspectives, which had impressed me in the store. I wanted to see if I was willing to pay the very high price for the Perspectives to replace my Thiel 3.7 speakers. If I liked the Perspectives more, I’d sell the Thiels to help buy the Perspectives. The dealer brought them to my home and helped set them up. I remember putting some payment on my credit card as deposit.

In the end I decided that while I loved the Perspectives, they didn’t convince me to get rid of my Thiel 3.7s. I thanked the dealer and told him that, while I had decided to keep my Thiels I also fell for the Perspectives enough that I wanted to buy them as well! Except, now I would have to save up for them. But I would come back to his store for the Perspectives when I could. Well...it look a long time to save for the Perspectives, through some financial ups and downs...years actually. But I finally saved up enough. During that time I passed up better prices on used Perspectives on Agon and other sites. Passed up buying at other dealers.

My dealer had earned my business by allowing me that home audition. So I was happy when I could finally purchase the Perspectives from his shop (he let me have a demo model for a decent price).

So, in the end, both of us were happy.

Also: as I detailed in my long Devore thread, I was also very interested in the Devore O/96 speakers, hearing them at a dealer a few times.  That's a speaker that, if buying new, I'd definitely want to hear in my home as they can be finicky and my room isn't very big.  The dealer offered in home auditions, but I felt I wasn't ready to commit to buying them given the Josephs were on my radar (and I wasn't selling my Thiels).  So I never did that home audition.

@ghdprentice - I too have a bike with a huge wald basket I grocery shop with weekly : ) - And I love track driving and cars too! Just not as much as cycling and listening to music, as I suspect is the same for almost all of us : )

@tomic601 - thanks so much for your kind words 😉

@lalitk - but I did find that the von langa, like almost every other speaker I’ve heard, loses out to the nenuphar over solo piano, nothing comes close to those nens on solo piano 😔 - have you had experience with any other smallish field coil driven speakers that excel with that? 

I've never encountered a dealer that would let me audition stuff at home, but I've been set with my gear for decades now, maybe things have changed.

Decades? Yup. That makes sense

How about this: Tell the dealer your will pay him to come to your home and look at your set up your other components and cables and placement and music you listen to and at what volume. Ask him to recommend a speaker for you. 

@sounds_real_audio 

Your comment reminds me of Truman Capote's comment about the work of Jack Kerouac: “That's not writing, that's typing.”

@hilde45 then buying the audio store and living in it is what? Copy-Paste? :) 

Home demos are such a conundrum.  The speaker/room influence interaction is so dramatic that no two rooms sound the same so the speakers will sound different in each of those rooms.  I like @sounds_real_audio  idea of a dealer visit.  It is true a way to listen at home is an important feature of purchasing hi end home gear.  It's easy with everything but speakers and turntables that require set up and space.  In our pro business, when we do a demo for a studio, we go set it up for the customer- the dealer doesn't do the demo.  The results for everyone is much better this way,   IF we did that in hi fi would possible buyers be more comfortable if the company itself set up the demo or the dealer?

Brad      

@sounds_real_audio - I've often thought of doing that, as long as the initial consultation payment was credited towards the purchase price, if I made a purchase. I would also insist that they do any delivery, setup and pickup so they'll know what shape the speakers are in. 

@lonemountain curious if companies did home demos then why need a dealer network? Are you suggesting a company that is located in CA ship a speaker to someone in FL then fly out to do the setup? I would imagine this type of scenario would raise the price of the component by hundreds if not thousands of dollars

Our side gig, selling from his home, guy doesn't wait to be asked for home auditions, he volunteers them. "Hey Chris, are you busy this Saturday? I've got a beautiful pair of Magico S5 Mk II's that I'd like to bring over and set up. I can leave them for a few days. I'll bring a bunch of different cables to play with too." He delivers and sets up everything he sells unless you really insist on doing it.  Allows returns for full refunds as well. 

I didn't take him up on the offer-waiting for him to get his hands on another pair of S7's. Maybe then. Fun shoot-out between those and my Vandersteen 7s.

Home demos are such a conundrum.

Not for many companies. I guess the issue is that some audio companies are so small or cautious that they can’t take the risk. But The Music Room, Audio Advisor, Crutchfield. Fritz speakers, Salk Speakers, Ohm speakers, Joseph Audio, Magneplanar, Upscale Audio, and many others do it. In some cases, you pay the shipping fee if you return them. All require an outright purchase up front; that protect the seller.

@kevn

Your analogy of a person putting together a car… like choose an engine, a transmission, body and assemble them to be a great car. Excellent. There are so many variables, like weight distribution… it would be really hard for a hobbiest to put together in an optimal configuration. Choose the very best engine, best transmission, and best body… I bet a disaster.

Also interesting that after over fifty years of pursuing high end sound (constantly restricted on funds), and having heterogeneous components, that I find myself with an all Audio Research system… sounding better than anything I have heard before… to my ear.

@ghdprentice 

sounding better than anything I have heard before… to my ear.

May I ask why you appended "to my ear" as a qualifier to your last remark? I ask this out of respect for your experience in the hobby. It would seem that adding that qualifier is done to prevent the interpretation that you are asserting your gear sounds better objectively. But since the only way to judge it would be with your own ears, it seems odd to add that remark. Is there another reason? Do others you play your system for not hear the improvements you hear? Is there something idiosyncratic about how you hear your system as compared to how others hear it?

I'm interested in why there is seems to be a reflex defensiveness in this hobby about how things sound. But you might have been saying something else.

@rsf507

 curious if companies did home demos then why need a dealer network? Are you suggesting a company that is located in CA ship a speaker to someone in FL then fly out to do the setup? I would imagine this type of scenario would raise the price of the component by hundreds if not thousands of dollars

No of course I’m not suggesting such an extreme example. I’m only stating the fact that if you want to do a demo well, you have to be there. Room and placement are a huge part of the sound. Without that, people often end up buying a speaker that is the opposite of a room (room is bass light, so "demo winning" speaker is bass heavy; room is highly reflective with a lot of glass, the best demo speaker is dark with less top end ). This is the value of a local dealer, they can come to you. Or you can experiment with their facility and determine how the speakers you currently own sound in their demo spaces, then compare to other speakers.

@hilde45

Yes many companies do send loaners, including several of the dealers that sell ATC for us. All the folks you mention have significant sales and are later businesses. If you are smaller, independent, or your main focus is more expensive high end speakers (over 5K), it could be quite different. Typically these sellers do a home demo locally by doing it themselves.

How about this: Would a customer fly out to a demo room that is set up properly? This is not as difficult, RT airfare could be reasonable and controlled by the customer. If the customer buys the speaker you refund his airfare.

Brad

@hilde45

To my ear, was a requirement. The number of times I have been in audio sessions with other folks… let’s say, midrange Magico (so what is that… $70K), driven by $50K amp… and I wanted run out of the room screaming with my hands clasped over my ears. They are lapping it up like it is the best thing since great cognac. The number of audiophiles that are dedicated to scraping the last layer of detail off of the media… without concern for natural sound and musicality is quite surprising to me. Some folks continually chase a sound that seems cleaner with more slam without concern that it sounds real… some folks just like switching equipment. Then there are the Mac folks that want the midrange and bass to push them back in their seats, details and balance not that important. None of this is wrong… it’s a passionate pursuit.

Few people have heard my system, and those that have (5?) all love it. My dealer is actually at the top of the list. He occasionally brings over high end equipment to hear on my system since he and I appreciate the same aesthetic. Just for fun, we brought over one of his employee, to get his take. He turned it up twice as loud as I had ever had it… sounded great… but too loud. Anyway, he thought it sounded OK. Exactly, what I thought he would say… a young’ in. Still into detail and slam. He hasn’t yet realized that rhythm and pace… and musicality is the core essence of a great system.

@ghdprentice Thank you for elaborating. It does seem, from your second paragraph, that what you hear as good is also enjoyed by those who hear your system. You have taste, and others can appreciate your version of taste. Be well.

@ghdprentice, knowing the speakers and the ARC upstream I have no doubt it sounds fabulous, and most importantly, musical.

In the early 90s a few dealers came to my home even. I borrowed equipment (with security) to audition for ten years and slowly settled down. Now a dealer I've known 30 years can't let me hear a used Jeff Rowland amp without buying it with no chance to return it if not a match. For me, it's hopeless now to upgrade. I'm happy enough now to not gamble on unheard gear.

As for speakers I have 'known' my listening rooms well enough to not make a mistake with something that would not work. Correct speaker-to-room sizing and a good strong knowledge (and enjoyment) of the sound of the speaker brand in advance help. After that, it's positioning, treatments, DSP, etc. when applicable.

i have a couple local dealers near me that only require a look at my id and writing down my cc# without running it. it's always open box and i'm allowed the speakers/component around a week, but now that I've done a bit of shopping here and usam I pre negotiate the price, often for a floor demo b4 demoing. Components aren't too hard for me to tell apart(or not) , but speakers can take me several months for me to hear their tell and once hears can never be unheard. So, I buy used speakers I think I'm interested in and demo them as long as I need at home. Current residents Kef Blade, some headliners preceded  them tho'. 

I find the current hifi shops, at least around Chicago are mature and when I describe what I have and where I'm trying to get they are upfront with me by either showing me what they recommend or flat out, but gently suggesting I get out of my own head and start listening to some new music.