Fsonicsmith you bring up some great points and thank you. I had no idea how long it takes to build from start to finish a Ref 6 however, as pointed out above I doubt it sounds five times better. Congrats if you can afford ARC these days but I sure can't. They made damn sure of it lol. Their business model totally changed and it's covered extensively in a not so long ago thread.
Considering switching from Audio Research to PrimaLuna, troube with VS115 amp
Hello everyone, I have question that I hope some of you either can answer or have an opinion on. Ever since I was 17, I have always wanted to own Audio Research equipment. I’m 56 now, and finally was able to fulfill my life long dream. My first acquisition was an ARC LS15 pre-amp bought here used in mint condition. I paired it with a Vincent 331MK hybrid amp also bought here used in mint condition. The resulting sound was impressive. After that, I started looking for an ARC amp I could afford. The resulting search found me an ARC VS115 amp also here in used, awesome condition. This is where my problems and my doubts started. Upon hooking up the amp to my system, a tube in the left channel arced and blew a resistor. I had to take the amp to an ARC dealer and he installed a new resistor and suggested I buy all new tubes from ARC for the amp. I did and when I got back home, I again hooked up the amp and immediately upon turning the amp on, I started to hear thumping sounds coming from my left speaker, then, two left channel output tubes started to glow a very bright orange, and then white smoke started to rise from one of the tube sockets. I immediately turned the amp off. I called the dealer and he suggested I mail the unit back to ARC. I did and I am now waiting to see what they say.
During this time, I started to search out other brands and came across one called PrimaLuna. I have watched their videos and seen them compared to ARC equipment. Their build quality seems to be superior to ARC and the reviews are over the top. I am looking at their Dialogue Premium HP amp and their Dialogue Premium pre-amp. For what they cost, considering how they are built and supposedly sound compared to units costing 3 to 4 times their price, they almost seem too good to be true. Anyway, my bubble has been burst, and in simple terms, I am considering jumping ship and going with another company instead of ARC, despite all those years of drooling and waiting.
My main question is this, is there anyone out there that either owns PrimaLuna or has had experience with the equipment and can give me their opinion on owning and using it. Then, my second question is how does PrimaLuna really compare to other high end equipment such as ARC. Kevin Deal in his videos on PrimaLuna makes a very compelling case for the equipment. In one video, he compares an ARC LS17SE to the PrimaLuna pre-amp.
My last question is in regards to my ARC VS115 amp problems. Anyone have an opinion on what is going on with my amp or a VS115 in general. For those of you who want to know what else is in my system, I am using KEF 104ab speakers, a Cambridge Azur 752BD Blu-ray player as my CD player, Morrow Audio Cables and I am considering getting the Sony HAP-Z1ES music player for my digital files.
I greatly appreciate all who take the time to comment and give their opinions. I will be glad to answer any questions you may ask or provide additional. Thanks for your help. Steve.
242 responses Add your response
I'm no audio expert but what really counts is how the music sounds to an individual and/ or the synergy between equipment. In the 40 plus years I've owned various SS integrated amps and separates including Pass, Classe, Modwright and Hegel. Each had its own unique sound qualities. Most sounded smooth and a black background which can be attributed to low distortion. A few years ago my curiosity bit me so I purchased the Primaluna Dialogue Premium Int from our friend Kevin. Wow I couldn't believe what I was missing all these years. The sound filled my room without cranking up the volume and the midrange was glorious compared to SS. What really counts it how it sounds and makes me feel and not the specs! I could have easily purchased more expensive tube equipment as I did with the SS equipment but I was quite satisfied with the overall sound. What I appreciate mostly about PL is the various tubes that can be used, the auto bias and construction. Kevin helped me tweak the sound of the amp by recommending Cifte NOS 12AU7 and the GL KT77 tubes. I couldn't more happier with my set-up. |
I have not heard an ARC Ref 6. I am sure that it sounds great. But...way out of my price league. I do know for sure though...that at five times the cost of the PL...I would bet dollars to donuts it certainly does not sound "five times better" than the PL. You sound like a good guy aolmrd1241. Like that silly commercial on TV where the lady is talking to her clone on the phone, "I like you". Without a doubt there is not a 5x difference in SQ. You know that on multiple levels. I was strongly considering the PL Dialogue Premium with a pair of the Dialogue Premiums set up as monoblocks. I even talked to Kevin Deal about them-naturally he did all the talking :-) (funny if you know KD). I would love to have auditioned them in my room. I was impressed when JA was reviewing a set of high end speakers (the new lower priced Magico?) and couldn't get the bass to sound right til he tried swapping the $3400 PL integrated into the system in place of far more expensive gear. The one remaining brick and mortar shop in my area is both an AR and PL dealer and the main guy at that shop owns AR gear (and happens to be an expert on VPI too). They stock neither as it seems home theater gear keeps the lights on. Even he has not heard the amps but has sold and listened to the pre. I will stop there. I fully understand those who question the prices of AR gear-I harbor a little of that thought too. They even do their very best to prevent any AD from offering any discount! And on top of all that, I think most would agree that they have released a flop or three in their 47 year history. Read Charles Hansen's comments about his latest amplification-he admits that until recently he failed to understand just why great tubed gear is magical and failed to prioritize that sound in his solid state gear. The magic of AR's top gear is that it has that magic without going overboard. That quality is very rare. |
I think unfortunately some of the hate for Primaluna comes because of the egomaniac rude spokesman. As far as the Harmonic Distortion with the Primaluna pre amp / amps if you can detect it and bothers you it, then simply turn on Triode Mode and its gone. If Primaluna paid for the reviews they get, then why did they allow the negative part about the harmonic distortion to be revealed??? Both Primaluna products and Audio Research are excellent but one is affordable and one is not. |
I confess to not having heard the Dialogue Premium. Watch Fremer’s videos of the ARC factory tour on youtube. It takes a week to hand-build a Ref 6 at AR’s Minnesota factory. Every transistor is stuffed and soldered by hand, all assembly in every other aspect is by hand, parts are not only proprietary but are not shared from one model to the next, and after each piece gets measured, it does not leave the factory until Warren Gehl listens to it. Do you think that’s the way of things with PL? Cheap labor saves a lot of money but there are far larger differences that account for the price differential. Point to point is very nice, It does not make one piece of gear better than another ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well that’s not true. They make a point that the output transformers are the same on the Ref 75 and VSI75. Output transformers are the single most important part of any tube amp. Nothing wrong with sharing parts. I’m sure they share many. It’s just engineering and parts guys. There is no magic to ANY of this. I saw that MIT box they are offering reviewed in the new TAS for $80,000 and they say it takes 200 hours to built. I’m sure it works. But your employees solder very slow. There is so much puffery in this business now it’s really making me shake my head. There are more nuclear submarine scientists with top secret clearance in high end audio than you can shake a stick at. All of them do things that require engineering so advanced they can’t share it with anybody. Including you. Just trust me and give me your money. After doing this for a living for over 40 years, I’ve gotten a little grumpy with old age I guess. As to the build quality of PrimaLuna, it far exceeds any brand mentioned thus far. It’s simply a fact if you look at the parts and how they are built. And reviewers agree. I think that one of the most experienced tube audio reviewers writing today is Stereophile’s Art Dudley. He likes expensive stuff, but when he reviewed a PrimaLuna he said: "I’ve never seen a better-built amp: ...Someone made this as if it mattered." The new line is so far more advanced than what he reviewed. As to how it’s built, the assembly is done in a factory that is a division of an Aerospace manufacturer. Every part going in is PrimaLuna’s alone, and tightly controlled by the Netherlands, with more parts in the signal path from Japan and Europe than any brand I know of. Swiss made silver-plated OFC wiring, Alps Blue Velvet volume control, Takman audiophile grade resistors, and Fujistu relays and Nichicon caps all from Japan. Mundorf Mcap Evo Silver Gold capacitors from Germany. Every completed product goes into a robotic arm where it is rotated into six positions and measured while playing test tones. Regardless ...all these products sound great. That’s not a tall order. What I would like is to invite some Audiogoners over to listen and they can post their own honest opinion. Is anyone of you here in Southern California? |
Thanks for the nice compliment fsonicsmith. More civility in these forums can go a long way towards the end goal of...great music in our homes. Kevin...Don’t forget about Dick Olsher!!! One of the finest audio reviewers I have ever had the pleasure of reading in my entire audiophile life. He gets it... From his review of the Dialogue Premium preamp...Enjoy! "The Dialogue Premium line preamp strikes me as one of the best things PrimaLuna has ever done. In particular, purity of expression and tonal realism are two of its strongest sonic assets. The incremental improvements to the Dialogue Three have borne fruit. The Premium version is now able to swim with and compete effectively against high-end’s cost-no-object heavyweights. And that, my fellow audiophiles, is a rarity. If you’re looking for a basic line preamp that is sanely priced and offers genuine tube magic, this is it! An enthusiastic two thumbs up recommendation!" www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1014/PrimaLuna_Dialogue_Premium_Preamplifier.htm |
I'm biased (pun) as hell. After strongly considering the PL Dialogue and AR LS28 I decided to go whole hog with the Ref 6 which I paid for but don't even have yet! Next week. I hope to get an ARC Ref 150SE too. I can't afford either but my sons are grown and through college and my view is that it's all gravy after that. At 58 I decided life is short. I've done a lot of relatively worthless research (pun again) but there is no substitute for listening in one's own room with own associated gear. This entire dialogue (arghh) has gone a bit sideways. It was never about comparing ARC's best with PL and I think I'm to blame for that. OP, I own a VS110 and it's built like a tank but yes, resistors fail on purpose with tube arc (double arghh) and you need to find a local technician to replace the resistor. Normally this is so routine that even enthusiasts good with a soldering iron and who have seen it done once can do it. Granted, your ultimate problem warrants a trip to Minnesota and it's a shame you lost so much on tubes. If by any chance you decide to keep the VS115 you want to replace the driver tubes with Russian Military grade 6H30's and the output tubes with Sovtek 6550's from Kevin. The output tubes at $40 each are a bargain! I tried much more expensive output tubes in my VS110 and it was Kevin who suggested the less expensive Sovteks and my SQ and reliability went up. Kevin does know his stuff. So back to ARC Ref stuff-we enthusiasts buy based on perceived quality and looks. It becomes a belief system. What can I say, in ARC I trust. Oh, one last thing Kevin, should you happen to see this; twice now you've mentioned this six-position testing regimen. What in the hell does that have to do with anything? Do gravitational forces effect electrons flowing through a piece of kit? Now you sound like one of those self-proclaimed space/aerocraft engineers! These are NOT chronometers! (I am a watch guy too). Oh, I lied. One more thing-by state of the art standards, Alps Blue Velvet volume controls are universally viewed as mediocre/undesirable. With any pre-amp, the volume control is absolutely critical. |
Dick Olsher and Art Dudley, my two favorite contemporary reviewers. Speaking of U.S.A. designers and builders of "affordable" electronics, beside the great Mike Sanders of Quicksilver, let’s not forget Ralph Karsten of Atma-Sphere and Roger Modjeski of Music Reference, both tube masters. Great designs and products, great guys, great companies. And in the loudspeaker field, if you don’t have the scratch for (or don’t care for the sound of) the upper-end Wilson Audio or Vandersteen speakers, there are the offerings from both Jim Winey at Magnepan and Bruce Thigpen at Eminent Technology, whose dipole panel speakers punch way, way above their price points. |
Rogue Audio M 180 monos are really good! Made in USA too! Just ask them if they will modify them to use the EL 34 & KT 77 tubes that sound so much sweater and refined ... Even the Stereo 100 is a great amp, but once again insist on EL 34 version if you decide to give it a shot .The Rogue Audio in general is a great brand in my experience.... Both of those have sounded better than Prima Luna in my short demo few years back in that particular set up with Bowers Wilkins 803s .... |
Kot which PL did you compare the Rogue to? The Dialogue Premium is a different animal than the earlier PL models. Not sure if this is a fair comparison but I had a Rogue Tempest II which is a nice integrated amp. I tube rolled quite a bit. Talked to Mark at Rogue who suggested a quad of EH KT90. I thought they sounded nice and then the tube rolling adventure began. The 6SN7 had the most effect so I rolled in numerous pairs before finally settling on some Hytron 5817 I think they were? Speaking from the cuff so probably wrong haha however, I was ready for a change. This is when I splurged for the PL Dialogue Premium and there was no comparison. The Rogue is nice but its not in the same league. I am not bashing Rogue at all trust me but the PL is a much better integrated and also even best some pretty good separates I have owned over the years. I will agree the EL 34 and KT77 are awesome tubes. |
Interesting thread, I will only add that when you retire you get a different perspective on pricing. Fortunately I did well to get my system where it is while I worked. I cannot see myself shelling out big money like before. But I've only been retired 15 months so the possibility of relapsing is still very real. YIKES! |
pops, I agree on all this pricing stuff. This back surgery may force me into retirement even though I do not want to. Like my job, coworkers and the company. Maybe just seasonal; which would be OK. I did finally get to sit in the sweet spot this weekend; after (7-8) months of not being able to. Yes, you missed that Forte' 50w CL A. Still love my 75w CL A monos. Rarely see them; the preamps are worth grabbing too. They were a ridiculous bargain. Sounds like "prof" is having a good time with his Thiel 2.7s.. I would like one (1) more Great TT and maybe a pair of Rockports. "It's not over, till the Fat Lady sings" Best Wishes Norb |
While I would never claim that line stage preamps are
interchangeable, I agree with Kevin Deal where he indicates that most of the
top preamps sound pretty good. Roger
Modjeski, when addressing my audiophile society, noted that high quality line stage
preamps are something that manufacturers should have under control, the
principles being well understood. One of the posters above asserted repeatedly that the top of the line PrimaLuna preamp generates considerable second harmonic distortion. I have not seen any measurements to back this up. If anyone has a reference, please post it. Stereophile very recently reviewed the ProLogue Premium preamp, measuring primarily second harmonic distortion ranging from 0.1% to 0.31% depending on output level. This preamp has a list price of $2,199 and is not the top of the line model. I own the Dialog Premium Preamp, the current top of the line, which I bought used from a private party. I use it single-ended into a Pass Labs XA30.8 power amp. This combination works great and sounds fantastic. The preamp is dead quiet, with no hum or noise, and the stock tubes are very neutral. Is the DPP state of the art? I’m honestly not sure if that is my objective. But from my perspective this preamp is flawless and I do not plan to replace it for a long time. I did try vintage Philips rectifier tubes, but didn't continue with them because in my system the resulting sound has a bit too much of the warmth traditionally associated with tubes. Some people love this type of sound but it ultimately comes down to preference. |
@samzx12 I dont really recall which PL, model but it was awhile ago, yes , so could be that PL really has improved their designs :) ...Rogue Audio integrates need modifying to sound their best ... their top of line black monoblocks at 15 grand (i think) are fantastic as well, easily competing with anyone’s top amps at any price, BUT once again only when modded to use EL 34 & KT 77 , IMHO of course :) |
Roger Modjeski, when addressing my audiophile society, noted that high quality line stage preamps are something that manufacturers should have under control, the principles being well understood.Not that I have Mr. Modjeski's credentials (de nada, I'm a lawyer who can't replace a house electrical box switch), but I agree with him.That said, there's a huge difference between a "high quality" preamp and one that delivers that elusive magical quality that many of us lust for. Charles Hansen gave Sasha Matson of S'Phile an interview published in the July 2016 issue and he describes what I am referring to best (sorry for the long quote but anything shorter fails to convey the point);
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Dennid Had writes about his recent single ended amp designs (especially on his Ebay listings…the only actual marketing of his amps other than headphone stuff) here and there but doesn't publish specs, offer a warranty, or guaranty anything…adorable. Also, not sure if his stuff sounds "5 times better" than anything else (with appropriate speakers), but based on what I've experienced it might. |
Oh, one last thing Kevin, should you happen to see this; twice now you’ve mentioned this six-position testing regimen. What in the hell does that have to do with anything? Do gravitational forces effect electrons flowing through a piece of kit? Now you sound like one of those self-proclaimed space/aerocraft engineers! These are NOT chronometers! (I am a watch guy too). Oh, I lied. One more thing-by state of the art standards, Alps Blue Velvet volume controls are universally viewed as mediocre/undesirable. With any pre-amp, the volume control is absolutely critical. Factories charged with making electronics, especially for aerospace and defense industries, not only rotate them to make sure every solder joint is perfect but will also put them into "shaker" machines to make sure they stand up to vibration. In fact shaker machines back in the old days used 6550 and KT88 power tubes!! As to the Alps Blue Velvet, it’s an EXCELLENT part. Period. I suggest you look at how they measure, and read the comments of Stereophile Editor In Chief John Atkinson when he benches PrimaLuna products that use them. In his last review of the HP integrated he said: "Balance remained within .25dB and the frequency response didn’t change. The DiaLogue Premium obviously uses a high-quality part for its volume control" Have you learned about the volume control of the new preamp you are buying? I’m sure it’s fine and should be a step up from what they use in the VSI75, which is the Analog Devices AD5293 http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Analog-Devices/AD5293BRUZ-50-RL7/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuD%2f7PTYBwKqdeb0... Of course the best volume control is a stepped attenuator. Got that. But then you have steps and no remote (unless you go with one of the new super tweaky ones). The message is this: The Blue Velvet measures well and lasts, and it’s not a chip. Using the AD5293 would be less expensive. But PrimaLuna wanted the best sound and I think what they have supplied is pretty damn nice...especially in a preamp weighing 37.5lbs that is dual-mono, tube rectified, with point to point wiring. For $2199. I too collect watches. Hard core. And I think that many people dream of owning a Rolex. Rolex makes a good, serviceable watch. And the company has done an excellent job of marketing "the dream" and most important...controlling the ability of their dealers to make a profit through careful handling of distribution. But if you open a Rolex, and talk to a real horologist that knows watch movements, you will see that Rolex is machine and mass produced more than most brands. To an incredibly high standard. But a serious watch collector would never compare them to a Patek, Lange, Jaeger, and the other brands where the movements are finished as works of living art. Having said that I’m wearing a Rolex Submariner right now! I love it. But I don’t kid myself about what’s inside. I know I’m paying for the prestige. Audio is often times like watches. The price is determined not by the engineering and build costs, but by how much they think they can charge and not have them sit unsold on a shelf. It’s completely arbitrary. That’s why I keep harping on using Google Images to look inside any given product so people can see for themselves and count up the parts. Anybody can do it. None of these parts cost that much, except transformers. |
Kevin; You're a good guy too! I could not agree more about Rolexes and anyone who even casually reads the watch boards knows that what you say is true. Do you know about the NOMOS Tangomat? German made rather than Swiss, but movement is made in-house with incredible precision and decoration. A fraction of the price too, compared to any of the names you list.If you like the look, MyChrono is the place to buy-steep discount! So now on to the discussion at hand. I will pass on the rotational thing. I could take a cheap jab that it shakes out extra resistors that the robot threw in during assembly. You refer to dual mono as did Herb Reichert-I do NOT believe any of the PL products are TRUE dual mono BALANCED designs. Consumers are mislead as to the distinction.As to the volume pot, measurements don't tell the whole story. once again. There is no measurement for how a volume control SOUNDS. I agree with you that chip-controls are shite. The VSI75 you keep referring to is an unfortunate "lifestyle" piece from ARC with obvious compromises. I have complete faith the volume pot in the Ref 6 is light years better sounding than the ubiquitous Alps Blue Velvet. My el cheapo Little Dot headphone amp has that exact same volume pot! And contrary to popular belief-including my own until being educated on the subject), most experts agree that ladder or resistor-stepped attenuators, while damned good, do not sound the best. You won't find them in the top ten widely admired present-day preamps. Charles Hensen has much to say on that subject too. |
I could not agree more about Rolexes and anyone who even casually reads the watch boards knows that what you say is true. Do you know about the NOMOS Tangomat? German made rather than Swiss, but movement is made in-house with incredible precision and decoration. I just got out of watch re-hab. Had to spend 30 days there, then to a half-way house where we had to wear only quartz watches for six months. So NOMOS is not a watch I'm familiar with. But they look beautiful! I wear chronographs for the most part. If you like German watches I bought a Grieb and Benzinger re-housed Patek when they were first starting out and they were "cheap". Now they are crazy high, but in Platinum cases, etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1KjirKprNk |
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Btw, Uncle Kev, being a man of average bordering on above average intelligence, I get your Rolex analogy, but don't agree it's true most of the time, particularly with the reputable brands. Look inside the Oyster case of an ARC Ref 6 and tell me that you're not impressed. And sometimes the inside looks plain and mostly empty and yet many hours were spent assembling, testing, and getting incredible sound, like Belles or the Pass Aleph series. I think there's a lot of truth in your clever refreshing advertising and a little pure marketing mixed in. |
I try to stick with the facts. That way it can’t be called marketing, which is what I loathe most in my industry. The most reputable brands are at times the worst abusers, because nobody questions them. Look at speakers. It was 15 years ago that a $100,000 speaker was almost crazy. Now it’s ho-hum. One "reputable" brand offering up a $675,000 speaker. For a speaker???? Oh...but it’s "Limited" to 75 pairs. Jeepers thanks for that. A Pagani Zonda S Super Car was limited 15 units, but sold for $500,000. What costs more to engineer and build: A pair of speakers or a hand-made super-car....with a nice stereo in it, and a pair of custom-made driving shoes made by The Pope’s cobbler??? I take preamps apart all the time. I simply follow the signal path to see what they do. There are no new designs in preamps. Nothing has changed for decades. And there is a lot of BS. For example when I hear a manufacturer say "mimimalist design" , that actually means fewer parts. Fewer parts should mean a lower price. Right? Nope. Dennis Had from Cary felt the best preamp he designed had two gain tubes and a 6CA4 rectifier tube. And was $1500. I benched it here and indeed it was the best testing preamp in a shootout we did. I also see things that are flat out wrong, from reputable companies that SHOULD know better. The idea of a line stage preamp having 23, 27 or even 30dB of gain is silly. Yet it happens. When you use a preamp, you are usually DROPPING gain by at least 6dB in normal use. Then people wonder why they have noise and microphony problems. FYI your ARC isn’t one of them. They know what they’re doing. And no doubt it’s a great preamp. One more comment: Take a preamp that was considered top drawer in 1984, and put the price of that preamp into an inflation calculator. A flagship two chassis preamp with phono stage included was $3700. Inflation adjusted that would be $8886 today. Two chassis. Phono stage included. It's worth pondering. |
"But PrimaLuna wanted the best sound and I think what they have supplied is pretty damn nice " Of course! Why do you think I'm answering? I don't own the company. Let's make that clear. But I'm ecstatic to be involved because I love tube gear so much and if I can help somebody make that leap...even if it's not with my company...I'm happy! People need to try a tube amp once in their life. |
Look inside the Oyster case of an ARC Ref 6 and tell me that you're not impressed. By the way...congrats on a bad-ass preamp. I would also guess you will get the matching amp at some point and it will look and sound beautiful. Every time I get something a little nicer I'm always happy years later. That's for sure!! |
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I have owned and used a PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium power amp for about a year and a half now. I can't comment on ARC stuff, but the PrimaLuna replaced several vintage Luxman MB3045 monoblocks (designed by Tim de Paravicini), one pair converted to KT-88s, and one pair still using the NLA sweep tubes. I also had a pair of A3000 100V domestic-market equivalents, which I ran on a Variac. All of the Luxmans sounded absolutely glorious - when they were working. I threw so much good money after bad with those amps, and in the end, was thoroughly disgusted by their lack of reliability even when repaired by a competent tech who knew of their quirks. I almost gave up on tubes, but while debating with myself I saw Art Dudley's review of the Dialogue Premium power amp, in which he explained the various features, including automatic biasing, failed tube protection, switchable ultralinear/triode, long tube life, etc. It sounded like exactly the kind of robustness that would make my Luxman experiences a distant memory. At the conclusion, he wrote: "I tried to find fault with the PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium. I failed. In particular, I tried to detect some mechanical or otherwise non-natural, non-organic quality to its sound, given the preponderance of switches and silicon inside its good-looking casework. I failed at that, too. I've had the pleasure of reviewing some remarkable amplifiers in the past few years. In many respects, the DiaLogue Premium, though far from the most expensive, is among the four or five most enjoyable." Since I trust Art's ears and value his opinion, I ordered mine in late October of 2015, and am delighted with it, both sonically, and with its reliability, flexibility, and ease of use. The Dialogue Premium provides 48 combinations of sound to try if desired: four tube types - EL-34, KT-88, KT-120, KT-150 two tube-type settings - EL, KT ("wrong" won't hurt) three taps - 4, 8, 16 ohms two modes - ultralinear or triode You can even run a mix of different power tubes without hurting anything. Talk about robust! It has already lasted at least six times longer than I could keep any of the Luxman pairs going between failures. I run mine with KT-120s, in triode, on the 16 ohm tap, powering my original Quad ESLs. They sound every bit as delicious as the Luxmans did. I am one super-satisfied customer, and would recommend the PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium power amp to anyone, without any reservations. |
By the way...congrats on a bad-ass preamp. I would also guess you will get the matching amp at some point and it will look and sound beautiful. Every time I get something a little nicer I'm always happy years later. That's for sure!!Thanks-very gracious of you. I'm replacing some pretty old tubed separates with the Ref 6 and a Ref 150se, both new. I can swing it (just barely) and I'm stoked as can be. I've lusted for ARC Ref level gear for quite a few years now. I was looking hard at the PL Dialogue Premium HP's to use as monoblocks but the input impedance was not a perfect match and I want to run balanced. Of the two, I am more excited over the Ref 6, I believe that other than choice of cartridge which we swap in and out more regularly, the preamp is the most critical component. |
"...I don't own the company. Let's make that clear. But I'm ecstatic to be involved because I love tube gear so much and if I can help somebody make that leap...even if it's not with my company...I'm happy! " Guess I miss read the Absolute Sound's Illustrated History of High End Audio article, when it speaks about Prima Luna it seems to imply otherwise including "In the end Deal agreed to form Prima Luna..." |
Hey everyone, its me again, Steve who started this thread. Wow! Never thought I would start such a long and spirited dialogue. Wanted to say thanks to everyone who has responded and given their two cents worth. It has been a real joy to read all your comments and feedback. I thought I would give you guys an update. I received my amp back from ARC yesterday, July 6th. I will be unboxing the thing and hooking it up and testing it over the weekend. Really looking forward to hearing how it all sounds. This will be the first time listening of an ARC system in my home. I will let you guys know what I think of it next week. As to the repairs, they replaced the V5 and V7 tubes with new ones, covered under their warranty, replaced the 4 tube, had a broken key, installed new resistors, and replaced the power switch. They charged me for a new outer shipping box, plus labor and parts. The price was $481 plus shipping charges to send back to me. I hope it stays fixed and is reliable from this point forward. If it breaks again soon, I am bailing on it and probably buy PrimaLuna. I am really hoping that the sound challenge posted earlier in this thread comes to pass. I would love to know how PL stood up to ARC in a controlled listening test, especially against ARC reference equipment. Based on everything I have now read and considered, I do believe PL would give ARC a run for their money. It makes perfect sense. Because PL can save so much money on labor costs and other overhead that they can build superior sounding equipment at a fraction of what an USA based company can. |
As a ARC owner, I can say unequivocally that their new 'Foundation' series offers great performance and are quite affordable in direct comparison with their Reference line up. If you like the house sound of ARC, you won't be disappointed with any components in Foundation series. I end up getting the LS28/VT-80/DAC9 for my rig and couldn't be any happier. I have been in this hobby for 20 plus years and I agree with most of you that the cost of high end gear is gone way up. Enjoy! |
In response to lalitk, I was also considering the VT-80 amp. I have the LS15 pre-amp. Was wondering about that amp. Only one review about it on the internet that I know of right now. Figured it sounded good but was wondering how it compared to older ARC equipment that was built before the company was bought and restructured. And was wondering how it is built at its' price point compared to PL amps. |
I would love to know how PL stood up to ARC in a controlled listening test, especially against ARC reference equipmentI can’t believe nobody on this thread lives in So Cal???? You can’t "demo" an amp at a store. Or a preamp. There is only one way to really make a comparison and that is level-matched, and hot, playing the exact same music. That’s how we do it. The aural memory isn’t good enough. I have really good ears and tons of experience. I can’t do it, and people that think doing it any other way are fooling themselves. I would love to do a test like that for you. It’s eye-opening and fun. |
You can’t "demo" an amp at a store. Or a preamp. There is only one way to really make a comparison and that is level-matched, and hot, playing the exact same music. That’s how we do it. The aural memory isn’t good enough. I have really good ears and tons of experience. I can’t do it, and people that think doing it any other way are fooling themselves. I respectfully disagree. Just not practical or even meaningful. You have to intently listen for three-four weeks to one and then to the other and rely on your gut as to which made you happier. Two months with one and then the other and then switching back and then vice-versa is even better. As to the ARC house-sound, most including me would describe it as big, in-your-face, not overly tube-y but wonderful midrange, a bit forgiving or shelved down in the high treble, and except for the very top shelf stuff, a bit soft on leading transcients in the low bass. Very detailed in a non-fatiguing fashion living up to the "High Definition" moniker. |
lalitk I've heard the LS28/VT80 combo with Wilson Audio Sabrina's at LAAS. Very very nice; I dream about that combo a bit too obsessively. The source was the ARC Ref CD9 and a TT. Both sounded wonderful. The "High Definition" moniker is very accurate for sure. And the system was non-fatiguing as noted above; you could hear very deeply into the music and I really found that quite compelling & emotional. |
Wow! I see this discussion is STILL going on. Watches? I get the "hobbyist" and "status" thing. I ride a bicycle that cost as much as a used car. At the risk of sounding like a PL fanboy, I believe there's possibly an anti "made in China" bias thing in this thread. Sonics is what it boils down to, and its subjective. Kevin, PM me if you do organize that showdown. I'm local and certainly would like to hear what separates the 2, sonically. I believe one WILL produce more convincing music, but how wide is the gap? And for HOW MUCH$$?? |
I hear you-one Sasha White built custom Speedvagen with Campy Record and Enve wheels and one Rob English custom built with Campy Record and Enve wheels. Could have gone Super Record but I had to show some restraint. Both weigh right around 15 lbs. Arrange the comparison and I will do my best to show up. |
upscaleaudio You can’t "demo" an amp at a store. Or a preamp. There is only one way to really make a comparison and that is level-matched, and hot, playing the exact same music.That's just silly. Many dealers have good listening rooms and an audiophile can certainly make an initial evaluation there. Sometimes it's easy to ascertain that an amp is too bright, or lacks bass, or is just in some way not to the liking of the listener. I also agree with @fsonicsmith that long-term listening is much better than level-matched A/B comparisons for judging components. To be sure, level-matched A/B testing has its place - especially for manufacturers - but for the typical audiophile, not so much. |
Yes there is probably some bias of "made in China" I freely admit my bias if for no other reason other than the fact of supporting USA and Canadian businesses when possible. As bpd24 pointed out, there are other USA manufacturers' that offer cutting edge tube designs at less than Tiffany prices, I currently own one mentioned a few times in this thread and couldn't be happier. I'm certain the Prima Luna is as well and offer a fine product solidly made.ARC products are well engineered and excellent designs. I have owned several over the years and always enjoyed. Yes they're expensive but what about some others? Check out the Swiss made gear without naming names. A sign of the times when audio becomes jewelry. That's OK too but it has little to do with music playback. I don't consider ARC in that category of component which ALSO has been inferred by some. |
+1, @tubegroover ~ I agree with your feedback on ARC gear. @pokey77 - Glad to hear you that your were able to audition and enjoyed the excellent combo of LS28/VT-80. I have recently upgraded my system with Nordost grounding unit (QKORE6) and improvements were far from subtle. I won't go into any more details here, better save it for another thread :-) |