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Considering switching from Audio Research to PrimaLuna, troube with VS115 amp
Hello everyone, I have question that I hope some of you either can answer or have an opinion on. Ever since I was 17, I have always wanted to own Audio Research equipment. I’m 56 now, and finally was able to fulfill my life long dream. My first acquisition was an ARC LS15 pre-amp bought here used in mint condition. I paired it with a Vincent 331MK hybrid amp also bought here used in mint condition. The resulting sound was impressive. After that, I started looking for an ARC amp I could afford. The resulting search found me an ARC VS115 amp also here in used, awesome condition. This is where my problems and my doubts started. Upon hooking up the amp to my system, a tube in the left channel arced and blew a resistor. I had to take the amp to an ARC dealer and he installed a new resistor and suggested I buy all new tubes from ARC for the amp. I did and when I got back home, I again hooked up the amp and immediately upon turning the amp on, I started to hear thumping sounds coming from my left speaker, then, two left channel output tubes started to glow a very bright orange, and then white smoke started to rise from one of the tube sockets. I immediately turned the amp off. I called the dealer and he suggested I mail the unit back to ARC. I did and I am now waiting to see what they say.
During this time, I started to search out other brands and came across one called PrimaLuna. I have watched their videos and seen them compared to ARC equipment. Their build quality seems to be superior to ARC and the reviews are over the top. I am looking at their Dialogue Premium HP amp and their Dialogue Premium pre-amp. For what they cost, considering how they are built and supposedly sound compared to units costing 3 to 4 times their price, they almost seem too good to be true. Anyway, my bubble has been burst, and in simple terms, I am considering jumping ship and going with another company instead of ARC, despite all those years of drooling and waiting.
My main question is this, is there anyone out there that either owns PrimaLuna or has had experience with the equipment and can give me their opinion on owning and using it. Then, my second question is how does PrimaLuna really compare to other high end equipment such as ARC. Kevin Deal in his videos on PrimaLuna makes a very compelling case for the equipment. In one video, he compares an ARC LS17SE to the PrimaLuna pre-amp.
My last question is in regards to my ARC VS115 amp problems. Anyone have an opinion on what is going on with my amp or a VS115 in general. For those of you who want to know what else is in my system, I am using KEF 104ab speakers, a Cambridge Azur 752BD Blu-ray player as my CD player, Morrow Audio Cables and I am considering getting the Sony HAP-Z1ES music player for my digital files.
I greatly appreciate all who take the time to comment and give their opinions. I will be glad to answer any questions you may ask or provide additional. Thanks for your help. Steve.
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jbhiller, if you are referring to me I have already given a couple of updates already. Check back in the thread. Summary, I finally got the amp back and hooked up over the last weekend. So far, it has worked flawlessly and sounds really good. Hoping no more tubes arc and cause resistors to break. Like many on this thread, waiting to see how the A/B comparison goes this Saturday at UpScaleAudio. Wish I could be there but the cost to travel there is too much. Hopefully, they will shoot some video and place on YouTube for us all. In the meantime, I will keep listening to my new setup and let you know how things go. Been considering getting a PL preamp to audition in my home to compare. I wonder how a PL preamp would go with an ARC VS115 amp? |
upscaleaudio ... play a track on amp A, move the source and speaker to amp B, and listen. Simple. Same cut. Same volume. Don't even turn off the amps. Instant.If you're seeking to conduct a valid test of this type - which isn't my preferred way of evaluating components, btw - then it has to be done double-blind. Otherwise, your bias that "the difference will be quite noticeable" can influence the results of the test. |
"I wonder how a PL preamp would go with an ARC VS115 amp?" Pretty much any preamp or amp is universally compatible with other brands. Having said that, I am a big proponent for components synergy. When I was building my system, I tried couple of pre's with VT-80 amp and nothing came close to LS28. This combo allowed me to hear better imaging and bigger / wider soundstage. If possible, I would suggest you find a way to hear both PL and ARC pre in your system and decide for yourself. Should you choose to go with ARC pre, you can pretty much cherry pick LS17SE, LS27 or LS28 off Audiogon. |
I think that I maybe thought the test shootout would be last Saturday. Sorry. I want to make points in my very limited humble opinion: 1. To the OP, as someone else seemed to say above, I wouldn't fret this too much. You bought a quality piece of equipment. I wonder if the differences between the ARC and Primaluna will be marginal. We cannot forget to enjoy the music. I'd ask myself, can I live with what I bought? And the good news is you can always buy a Primaluna and sell the ARC--or keep the ARC. I bet it's amazing. 2. On Kevin Deal being a used car salesman. I own a Primaluna HP Integrated. And, I have had some a need for customer service for two issues. Kevin Deal was simply amazing. He called me on nights and weekends. He followed up immediately each time. His staff gave him my detailed messages. He understood the messages BEFORE we talked. He told me, "Dude, I will not leave you hanging here." Yes, that language is casual and so Southern California--I'm in Chicago. But it was cool because his casual language meant something more than formal language from other dealers--he stood by his product and was awesome in the process. I bought an open box item. When I had an issue with the remote and mute function on the amp, Kevin worked through it. When we couldn't get it easily resolved, Kevin shipped me a brand new unit by Fedex 2 day from Cali to Chicago. He told me not to ship back the original product until I had the replacement up and running. He said you don't want to be without a stereo during this process. I was so happy and blown away (because of the service and how great the amp sounded) I offered to pay full price for the new unit, as Kevin had only really offered to sell me an open box one at a discount. Kevin's response to my offer--"Just enjoy the amp man." I don't think Kevin would be as successful as he is if he were a used car salesman. Kevin needs me to keep coming back to him. Have we all seen his facility and stock? He can't keep that facility up by selling snake oil or BS. Customers are fickle and discriminating. If Kevin sold me a tube and told me it was better than another tube--yet it was salesy garbage/puffery--he would either need to fool me with bias and BS or I can independently find him to be wrong. I don't want to come off like Kevin is the second coming of our savior. I just want to say that he is a class act businessman. I buy from him because of his service and fair dealing. By the way...I do own a Primaluna HP integrated, Manley Chinook, a host of tubes and DH Labs cables, which I bought from Upscale. I am not related to Kevin in any way and have never met the man in person. |
Here's the deal..no pun intended. This Saturday at 11. I told Bob Levi 10 so need to make sure that works or him. The VSI75 is broken in and near new so the tubes are fresh. It's the latest version with KT150's. I'm most happy to put the tubes on an Amplitrex if anybody asks so there is no question about validity. The PrimaLuna is a demo $3399 Dialogue Premium with stock EL34's. I could use an HP but the Dialogue will be fine. Level matched. Double blind too if you can figure a way to do that. I want the change from amp to amp to be instantaneous as the mind is not as sharp as people think. Its open to whoever wants to come. Please email me at kevin@upscaleaudio.com with a name and cell number just in case of an emergency. The spirit of of this is having fun. I am a fan of all tube gear including ARC and they are a fine company. Particularly the old stuff. I have a collection of tube gear throughout the years including the well regarded D150 and SP10 mkII and SP11mkII. I rebuilt the SP10 which was interesting. When I retire I plan to do nothing but dick around with all the stuff that's accumulated. |
Tablejockey, musicpod and fsonicsmith? "I had a customer contact me through e-mail named Mark N. Is that one of you?" Hello Kevin, Mark here. Look forward to 11:00 Saturday. Wouldn't using KT150's in the PL even things out? Ive never used the KT150, but read some users describe its performance as EL34 midrange with low end of the KT88? If so, then the PL may lack the last bit of oomph? Perhaps this wouldn't matter depending on music used? Classical-no Rock-yes Jazz-maybe |
I'll answer a few folks here: Tablejocky - No ..we will use EL34's. That's stock. Remember that line? "We don't need no stinking KT150's" We'll play some Stevie Ray and a couple other really well-recorded dynamic pieces. jbhiller - Thank-you for the kind words. The amp was not broken per se. It was the cable for the volume control came loose in shipping. We got the amp back and simply plugged it in. I replaced the amp because when people get new gear....it's a rush. And far be it for me to be a buzz-kill to that 'rush" as we say in California. Thank-you for your parience. skyhawk51 - Yes you can use the PrimaLuna DiaLogue Premium preamp with virtually any amp made. It has a low 256 ohm output impedance. If you go read my videos on preamps, you'll notice you can make a decent tube preamp for $1500 retail and make money. It's not tough. Your preamp is a sum of parts. Two 6922's per channel, and decent performance no doubt. Going up will reap some benefits, but not as large as going up in amps. The DiaLogue Premium preamp will go head to head with $25k preamps, partially due to every bit of the circuit path is done right, meaning: Dual mono, tube rectification, point to point wiring, big toroid transformers, and details like AC Offset Killer, Takman resistors, Mundorf Mcap Evo SilverGold caps, ect. It's 53lbs. But the other part of that is diminishing returns in preamps. Have fun with what you have and upgrade the 6922's to something that fine-tunes the color to your liking. It can be done cheap. I know that preamp, and you can use Tungsram PCC88's in it and get a nice bump for cheap. |
To UpScaleAudio, Kevin, you read my mind. I was thinking about getting new tubes for the preamp. Since I have new tubes in the amp, I thought I would start fresh with the preamp as well. I don't know how long those preamp tubes have been in there and I wondered what you might recommend. I'll call you tomorrow about it. One other thing, how does the reference series ARC compare to how PL are built? Do they start to use better volume and selector controls? Tube rectification and other improvements similar to PL? If not, then how do they achieve better sound at that level compared to their intro pieces? |
Going up will reap some benefits, but not as large as going up in amps.This is the fun debate. Kevin is not the only one with tons of experience/knowledge who believes this and just as many with equal experience and knowledge say the opposite. I don't like repeating myself. There are many more superlative amps than preamps in this world. That about sums it up. Let me ask this; if Kevin's claims about the PL preamp were true, why does the listening comparison set for this Saturday have nothing to do with his preamp vs. an Ayre, C-J, Coincident, VTL, or ARC benchmark level preamp? Why is it an integrated vs. an integrated? Taking a different approach, my AMR DP777 has many fans who believe it to be one of the best available DAC's and AMR's very talented chief designer/engineer claims it offers a top level built-in preamp. It's fine, but boring. My Manley Steelhead again features claims that it can be used as a top level preamp. It's fine but not great. 99.8% of dedicated preamps/linestages are competent but damn the rest of the system down-chain to being merely competent. Kevin is just plain wrong-amps are at their heart the simplest of electronics- not preamps. Amps do nothing more than regulate the energy coming out of your wall. |
With due respect, feels like you're going to all this trouble to invite people in to double blind, then kind of invalidating a major part by not using KT-150s or EL34s in both (or better, do two tests...one with each). Wouldn't you agree that alone those tube sets sound a fair bit different in the exact same amp? I can at least speak from experience in the PL lines... |
parsons With due respect, feels like you're going to all this trouble to invite people in to double blind, then kind of invalidating a major part ...Actually he's made it clear that the event won't be double-blind. He wrote: ... play a track on amp A, move the source and speaker to amp B, and listen. Simple. Same cut. Same volume. Don't even turn off the amps. Instant. |
"Level matched. Double blind too if you can figure a way to do that. I want the change from amp to amp to be instantaneous as the mind is not as sharp as people think." I agree, our minds aren't so sharp when it comes to sonic memory. If you or someone else figures a way to incorporate the double blind-double thanks! Any chance that amazing Avenger setup making an appearance? Hearing the PL with A1 gear/cables is always a treat. |
OK, double blind aside. Those tube sets sound a ton different on their own, wouldn't most (all?) agree who have heard the difference? I realize this is for fun, and I both respect that and am excited to see (read, I suppose) the results. However, I simply suggest it's an even more interesting exercise to see how two manufacturers execute against the same output tube. ARC made the decision to ship with KT150s for a reason, I presume, and I can attest that the PL didn't get worse with KT150s in the two I own (to my ears). I suspect that there is a "it's not going to matter" in here somewhere, but I still think that assumption is unfortunate. My uneducated self predicts one pre-listen stat alone...36.4 lbs. vs. 63.8 lbs...will predict the "winner" between these two specific units regardless, all other parts comparisons aside. |
Primaluna gear was originally based on a Cayin TA-30 amp (which I had years ago) with the addition of Primaluna's adaptive auto-bias circuit (which is brilliant, by the way). Sound-wise, the Cayin was designed to bring back the glory days of tubes and channelled a vintage design, can't recall which brand. The transformers that they had on the original amp were quite good and the sound quality was not as vintage as the design brief seemed to say - the treble was pretty well extended compared to the old stuff. They also ran the output tubes conservatively, not trying to squeeze too much power from them. However, these were intended to be budget amps for middle of the road systems and their lowish power output (except the 70 watt monos) means you need fairly efficient speakers if you like "slam" and dynamics and decent control of bass. So, Primaluna will work for you if your speakers are quite efficient and you will get best results if the speakers have a fairly benign impedance curve with frequency. Oh, and the build quality of these amps is exceptional - I believe the factory in China used to produce military products. The AR's are supposedly higher in absolute resolution and have the power to drive less efficient speakers to realistic levels. However, they run the tubes very hard and a lot of modern tubes are just not up to the task. I believe AR actually has to buy stock and do their own testing to figure out which ones will work without arcing over (CJ have to do that same thing) :) I have often wondered what it would take to reduce the operating point to a safe place for modern tubes as well as how much output power would be sacrificed... I expect the AR amps have a lower output impedance, thus handling speakers with more complex impedance curves. Additionally, the AR amps are a modern design rather than a copy of an old one with a few improvements made for reliability. Don't shoot me, I am just musing :) We are talking about vastly different price points between AR and Primaluna, although age tends to balance the difference somewhat. I have tried the Jolida (another decent Chinese brand) JD1000BRC amp and it runs the tubes fairly conservatively, but it just isn't an audiophile amp as it rolls off too quickly at the top and struggles to produce mid-bass in speakers that are almost purely resistive. Given the right speaker match, it could be an option though, and it is reasonably well made and easy to service and has a warm and friendly sound. Rogue Audio amps are probably closer to the AR sound and they are a bit more reliable, from what I hear. They do also run the output tubes pretty hard. I have not heard them, but I hear that the Bob Latino Dynaco based (VTA) 125 watt monos are very good and reliable amps indeed and they are quite nicely priced. http://www.tubes4hifi.com/bob.htm#M125 Many other tube amps from small manufacturers are just downright horrible copies of classic amps with cheap and nasty output transformers; in some cases they include design errors and in others are downright dangerous. I have repaired many and added safety grounds, etc... |
One more thing from an old tube head: What is your mains voltage? Have you measured it? I have found it varies quite widely - in my area it goes as high as 127 volts at times. So I use a simple mains voltage regulator in front of my tube gear - APC makes a couple - the Line-R series is what I have. The cool thing with it is you can switch it to provide a lower voltage all the time and this will run your amp a little cooler in absolute terms. Yes, it will slightly shift operating points, etc, blah blah - BUT it may be the reliability fix that you need. And it is cheap. |
Please feel free to ignore this question if it's hijacking the thread too much. Given folks are commenting on the quality of tube amps out there... I'm super curious to know if you folks have any intel/opinions on Icon Audio tube amplifiers? They are a British company and their products are available at Music Direct. They look to be of quality but I haven't stumbled on users or reviews of them. |
jbhiller - Icon has been selling rebranded Chinese amps for a long time, not sure if that has changed. I tried one when I was living in the UK and it was reliable, but let down by very cheap output transformers giving it a lightweight sound. It was about 11 years ago, so things may have changed since then. It was a 40 x 40 watt push pull EL34 design based loosely on a Dynaco. If I recall correctly it used cathode bias, making the power output spec a little ambitious. It got solidly spanked by a very cheap Yarland push pull EL84 amp (the same amp that Sophia sells as the Baby - although they may use slightly better parts). |
Kevin is just plain wrong-amps are at their heart the simplest of electronics- not preamps. Amps do nothing more than regulate the energy coming out of your wall. The opposite is true. Read everything I've said and I can tell you that you can make a DECENT tube preamp for $1500 that sounds damn good. Cary made one called the AE-3DJH and it benched better than most. Tube preamps are SIMPLE and that's why manufacturers are over-charging customers with big empty boxes. Now you get to the details. What kind of regulation, rectifying the AC, hybrid or not, dual mono. But I'll be the first to admit big diminishing returns and that's exactly why doing a level matched A/B will be less telling. Tube amps are completely different, and it's harder to cheat. The differences are much greater between the good and bad. And they can be bucks up and bad. Amps don't "regulate power from the wall." Output transformers are the key, and they are half art, half science. And expensive....which is why companies looking to maximize profit use cheap (and small) power AND output transformers. They are the single largest cost. As to the A/B test, if you want double blind I can try to hide the wires. I would expect the more expensive amp to benefit from NOT being double blind, as people will be impressed. As to which tubes, the idea is to compare stock with stock. I'm not going to upgrade the tubes on the PrimaLuna. It negates what this is about. Would the PrimaLuna benefit from dropping in $400 worth of KT150's? I suppose. But what good does that do? It muddies the water. |
From a dealer's perspective, I get your point. If you believe the majority of folks would prefer the PL as stock over the ARC as stock, stock is how you are going to sell the PL to them, so it benefits your case for PL if they do prefer the PL "stock" sound (which is obviously your prediction, or I doubt you'd be going through the hassle). Then you don't have to add "...if you put KT150s in..." when you tell the story later on. Makes sense. |
Kevin you keep bringing up the Cary AE-3DJH. Since when was it ever a standard-bearer? Never. It was never more than a very nice preamp FOR THE PRICE. http://www.stereomojo.com/AES%20Super%20Amp%20and%20AE-3%20preamplifier%20review/AESSuperAmpMk2andAE... Amplifiers are falsely believed to be capable of storing and unleashing massive amounts of power if built like tanks when in fact they can only control (regulate) the power available from the wall. Amplifiers should be thought of as faucets and not as water towers. Preamps have the task of handling low level signal without degrading it. This is much more difficult to implement at a superb level than the task at hand for an amp-regulating AC to DC. As someone else has pointed out, PL has taken traditional but dated basic circuit designs, added some user-friendly features, built them to tank-like standards, and at great prices. All fantastic stuff, but please don't tell me or anyone that any single PL pieces bests any $25,000 piece. Maybe they are better than a very few ridiculously overpriced mediocre pieces of gear but those pieces are doomed to fail in the marketplace. Why take a good thing and depart from the real to the absurd? |
"Oh, and the build quality of these amps is exceptional - I believe the factory in China used to produce military products." Raindance: As I pointed out in an earlier post, that "factory" is owned by the Chinese government, who is, indeed, very active in producing "milatary products". Cayin is a company owned by the Chinese government. When you buy a Cayin, you are paying the Chinese government for the product. It would be nice to imagine that they are made by young Chinese audiophiles who are into tubes but this is not the case. Primaluna is made in factories owned by the Chinese government so the PRC is more of a partner in the enterprise but not the owner. For many, the issue is entirely price, sound quality and reliability so the "how" is more important than the "who". For me, there is a certain "ick" factor that is hard to ignore, especially in the last week. |
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Sometimes people step into a listening session with preconceived notions. A certain project is definitely better than another, etc. Which impacts their "subjective" listening perception. In this case, this is a simple listening session of two products that are gain matched to hear sonic differences if any. I don't believe that in this case double blind testing is really necessary. Just play the music and move tell us what you thought. I also feel that both projects should be demonstrated as they came from the factory. With the tubes that the manufacturer supplied. Tube rolling may be fun (and expensive), but is not how this should be evaluated. In my opinion. I live in the LA area, but can't make the demo on Saturday. It would definitely be fun. Don't play with cables. Just play one device, turn it off, connect the cables to the other device, turn it on and you are good to go. I have a problem disconnecting cables from "amps" while they are on. I have seen several time "careful" dealers do that and short the outputs, damaging the amp. It was unintentional, but it happened. Best to be safe. Looking forward to reading the results. enjoy |
In the old days, I bought into the Audio Research legend with an early transistor amp (D-100 maybe?) but it was lousy sounding and had to go back to the factory a few times for repairs until I finally sold it. The sound is probably as the post I read in the beginning of these posts reflect.... re: the overtone series, however, today - even yesterday...transistors can be as musical as tubes. (Ayre et al) |
Kevin you keep bringing up the Cary AE-3DJH. Since when was it ever a standard-bearer? That review was the wrong preamp. The AE-3MKII was OK, but not nearly as good as the AE-3 DJH, which stood for Dennis J Had because he felt it was his best design. And at $1500. I never said it was a standard bearer. It’s an example of how simple it is to make a decent tube preamp cheap. Some would put it in a big empty box with a nice faceplate and charge $5k for it. This comment about an amp “regulating AC to DC” is like…I don’t agree, respectfully. Tube amps also handle small signals. But that’s when it gets complex. Because of the power needs of the tubes, you need a massive power transformer unlike a preamp, then you need good regulation, which is easier on a preamp, then the driver section to drive the grids of the power tubes, then the biggest key: Output transformers. Expensive, and you need two of them. No matter what else you do, if you don’t have great output transformers, it all means nothing. Preamps don’t use them except for a small number of transformer coupled preamps like BAT’s top models. PL has taken traditional but dated basic circuit designs, added some user-friendly features, built them to tank-like standards, and at great prices
This is true, but it’s about SOUND not just being user-friendly. Adaptive AutoBias is ADAPTIVE. There have been auto bias circuits before. Even from Golden Tube Audio. AAB is about sound quality when tubes have many hours on them, or when they are pushed to their limit and experience pinch-off. It also allows the amp to run in Triode or Ultra-linear at the push of a button on the remote. And it’s how you can flip a switch to fine-tune performance between smaller dissipation tubes like EL34/KT66 and larger dissipation tubes like KT88/KT120/KT150. And finally, it protects the amp instantly in the event of a tube short, which would have helped the guy that started this thread, and would have told him which tube was the culprit and eliminate drama. It was engineered by the Chief Designer for Goldmund in Switzerland, who was credited with penning some of their most iconic products. A REAL engineer. Who also designed the output transformers and created other PrimaLuna designs you won’t find elsewhere like the AC Offset Killer to help make the power transformer dead quiet, the circuit on each input that provides a solid input impedance to source components, a proprietary cross coupled feedback on the power amps to add control without the negative feedback nasties, power transformer and output transformer protection in case of customer mistakes, and also created the Tjoebclock vacuum tube to address jitter in PrimaLuna CD players and the upcoming DAC. All performance. All exclusive to PrimaLuna. As to “dated basic circuit designs”, there are no new designs. In preamps or amps. Most every push-pull amp uses a twist of Ultra-linear (ARC has their version) or Pentode (Mac and Quad have their versions). Ultra-linear was invented in 1938 and made famous in the 50’s. Not a lot has changed. There is a booklet written about this by Scott Frankland for Sonic Frontiers many years ago that is FABULOUS. Download it here http://ken-gilbert.com/images/pdf/taste_of_tubes.pdf |
It was a fun time. We had six people in attendance. I had the $8500 VSI75 set up, a DiaLogue Premium integrated ($3399) with KT150 tubes (add about $400) and an HP integrated ($4399). All of them had been on for days, all had tubes that test new. All of them sounded fabulous. At first we listened unblinded, and I think everybody liked all of them, but no real conclusions were made. I had a feeling people were being effected by what they THOUGHT should sound best. So I decided to make it a blind comparison by blocking the amps from view with cardboard and when I switched from one amp to another I asked that people look away so they could not "figure it out". I played the DiaLogue w/KT150’s first, the HP second, then the VSI75, and asked them to pick their favorite. The votes were as follows: DiaLogue Premium w/KT150’s 4 votes HP with stock EL34’s 2 votes VSI75 0 votes But don’t read too much into that. This is not to say it’s night and day between any of them. The VSI75 is fabulous...especially if you leave it on a lot and it’s hot. I use an HP at home with KT150's and it's amazing. But it's not night and day from a stock one with EL34's. It's a small nudge. I would be ecstatic with any of them, and would prefer them to a stack of reference solid state separates. I want to thank all those that attended including Bob Levi from the LA Orange County Audiophile society. |
Thanks to Kevin for hosting an enlightening demo. Well done. I chose the PL w/KT150's as the most pleasant of the 3. All shared more similarities than differences, and I could be satisfied with owning one of them. Oh, I do(PL HP)The PL did have more weight in the low end. The mids and highs were more difficult to discern with my tinnitus, but I will say it simply was more convincing(most realistic) I'm distraught by the difference the $14K Focal Sopra displayed over my $3k speakers! I know...silly. Kevin, can I demo those Sopra's for a couple months? We listened to SRV's "Tin Pan Alley" at a nice level(not ridiculous loud) and all 3 amps were great. This wasn't a "what's best" test. Kevin also gave us an under the hood comparison on build quality. The PL looks just as good as higher priced gear. My thought BEFORE the demo was the VSI75 wasn't going to present something the PL didn't have. Confirmed. The demo has made me think twice about trying the KT150 in my amp. I use 6L6G's which I have preferred over the EL34 or KT88. Hello pokey77-I was the stand up guy. Which other listener are you? |
Not wanting to restate Kevin’s comments, I’ll just try to add to them; I’m certainly not as succinct as he is as you can see by the length of this post. Before getting started with the listening, Kevin reminded us the purpose behind this shoot-out was simply to compare the three pieces of equipment and to do it in the spirit of fun and openness. And that’s just what happened. Kevin was a truly great host and he had nothing but good to say about ARC gear during the entire get together. He never tried to persuade us or nudge us in any direction. As you can or may have read earlier in the thread, he even mentioned how good the ARC integrated sounded after being left on for a number of hours. To start, Kevin used his IPhone to volume-match the three integrateds. I believe everyone thought this was a very important step to put all amps on an even playing field; secondly the same speaker wire and interconnects were used for all demo purposes keeping that game-field level. Kevin then proceeded to play the same Stevie Ray Vaughn track “unblinded” (Kevin’s term for us seeing the cable swap) through each of the integrated amps. After that first round, Kevin reminded us that someone in this thread asked that it be performed double blind. So he obliged and got out his official “double blind ” (and thickness!) Cardboard boxes and put them in up as walls in front of the amps for the next round. Everyone was asked to turn their heads away during the cable swap to each amp. Once Kevin played the same SRV track through each of the three integrateds, he asked for us to vote. Pretty simple – no smoke-n-mirrors or fast switches here. I was genuinely surprised at the tallying of the votes; more voted for the less expensive Prima Luna integrated by a margin of two to one. Before I share my pick, I can tell you straight up, at least for me, that all three sounded more alike than dissimilar; better/worse, etc. For myself, I felt that both the VSi75 and the DiaLogue Premium HP sounded pretty similar. At times I felt that one was slightly better than the other. But really, there was no clear winner for myself, still I had to pick a winner. I had no horse in this race, I just voted based on sound. I did feel that the lower-priced DiaLogue Premium was not quite as good as the other two, but there was no huge chasm either, it was really quite small. So, in the end I picked the DiaLogue Premium HP in the blind test. It was hard to pick a winner, but then after Kevin disclosed the playing order, and taking into consideration the struggle I had to pick a personal winner, I also felt that the ARC integrated was very good as well. What got my vote was the DiaLogue Premium HP seemed to have a bit more air at times and the bass was a bit more controlled at times as well. But there was not a giant or even substantial difference between the top two. I know I could live with either integrated very happily. And yes, the HP wasn’t all that much better than its little brother the DiaLogue Premium, but at the price increment between the two, you’d second guess yourself every time you settled in to listen having purchased the lower-priced integrated; the price difference is worth it in my opinion.And if all this were not enough, Kevin then took us back to his bench and took the covers off, so to speak, on both the HP and the VSi75 and explained what was going on inside. It was very interesting indeed. You could see the quality in both pieces and readily see the design philosophies of each company. Finally, as a disclosure, I have no affiliation with Kevin or Upscale Audio, I’ve never been to his retail establishment, nor do I own any of the equipment listened to today or have any equipment made by those respective companies. I simply attended because I wanted to hear for myself the REAL difference between this gear; I was truly surprised at how little that turned out to be. –Kevin, I just want to say thank you. You’ve really shown how interested you are in good sound, so much so you took a part of your Saturday (and spent hours before in the week setting up) to share that all with us. I really appreciate that and I’m sure the other participants do to. Tablejockey, your comments are appreciated and nice to have met you. |
It was a learning experience for me too, mainly because I found that it needed to be done blinded as it's one less thing to think about during listening. The HP is better than the DiaLogue Premium, that's for sure. The amps are exactly the same internally except the HP has a larger power transformer, a second Adaptive AutoBias board, four more power tubes, and the headphone capability. Doing this test I learned that customers do like KT150's since the $3399 DiaLogue equipped with them got the most votes. While that's an expensive upgrade it's a LONG TERM upgrade. The plate voltage and biasing is so easy in PrimaLuna's they go forever. I have KT120's with over 5,000 hours on them that test at 90% of new. My KT150's at home get used a LOT and after two years they test at 90%. But the uptick is small, and I LOVE EL34's! As to comparing a DiaLogue Premium pre and HP amp to an ARC...I only have an LS26 and LS27 trade in here. I have a VT100 MKIII that needs repair but it's not even close to being current. If anybody has an amp they want to drag over they are welcome to. I did not want this to be "us vs them" and I don't want people pissed at me. I'm leaving for France this week and will be gone until August 14th. I'm touring the Focal factory and that's supposed to be AMAZING. Then I meet with the people from PrimaLuna for a couple weeks. I hope you guys downloaded that Taste of Tubes thing I linked to. |
I find the results, based on my own experiences in this hobby, not too surprising in the least. What I have personally observed over my years comparing different components is not how they might differ in a "love me or leave me" comparison but over a sustained period of familiarity. Not withstanding this it is really nice to know there are great lower priced alternatives to esteemed and proven higher priced American made for the budget minded consumer. Good job and well done to all the participants. |
One more thing I have to say about color and perception of good sound. You can make as big an impact on the sound of your system with small signal tubes rather than power tubes, at lower cost, and in a more predictable way. In integrated amps or power amps it's the two input tubes. In preamps do the gain tubes first as the cathode followers (if so equipped) have an effect, but not as much. NOS (new old stock) 12AX7's are getting hard to find. 12AU7's are very plentiful. 6922's are still around, but starting to get more difficult. And if you make a mistake....put 'em in a drawer for later. Your system may change. At some point you will be happy you have them!! |
It's been fun reading. I am not surprised at the impressions and that is meant only as a complement to PL. While I have difficulty swallowing Herb Reichert's standard deviations away from objectivity, there can be no doubt the PL gear is solid based upon the favorable comments in S'Phile. I believe that Kevin Deal and I have talked past one another on the issue of preamps but such is neither here nor there. Generally speaking, modern ARC gear tends to be fairly "in the middle" between classic tube and ss sound and I understand PL to be a bit more on the tube side of the spectrum. Prolonged time with the gear (months, not minutes) would likely bear that out. It is always possible that the Focals impedance curve lessened the difference. The critical interplay between speaker characteristics and tube amps has been explained by Ralph Karsten of Atma Sphere here; http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/Paradigms_in_Amplifier_Design.php Don't get me wrong-the friendly comparison seems fine. For perfectly selfish reasons, I would love to read about a similar comparison between ARC's top gear-let's say the Ref 6 and Ref 150se vs the top PL separates. That would tell us whether PL can claim to be giant-killers-even if they simply pull even-or are instead simply great value. One related issue which brings us back to the OP, I think, has been glossed over-ARC gear has typically used resistors as the "fuse" for malfunctioning tubes but is it because ARC is just lazy/non-caring/behind-the-times or do other options ultimately degrade the signal/sound? Read any reference you wish on tube amp design-this one is good; http://ken-gilbert.com/images/pdf/taste_of_tubes.pdf and you will see that there is nothing new under the tube amp sun. So why is it that at the very same time, PL makes it sound as though it's auto-biasing and protection circuits are revolutionary? Even evolutionary? |
@tablejockey I used the word “unblinded” as in we could see Kevin’s making the cable swap as opposed to the blind switch where we were "blinded". @jbhiller "It seems like the takeaway is the Primaluna product is a solid bet with tons of value" I'd agree with that statement. @upscaleaudio I've heard the KT150s in a few amps and always liked the way whatever amp was playing them sounded. I actually preferred the KT150s in the ARC VSi75 and felt the overall sound was very close to the EL34-tubed HP. As jbhiller noted above, there is tons of value in the Primaluna gear and when you have two pieces of gear that essentially perform the same, price should win the day. Kevin, I also appreciate your transparency in talking about how the smaller driver tubes can make a large and significant affect on sound quality. That lets others experiment in a way that is easier on their audio finances. Also, experimenting with tubes in Primaluna product is much easier since they have an autobias circuit; this adds to the "tons of value" in PL. -Not everyone wants to be biasing tubes. |
Hello Kevin, Thx for hosting the party and I really enjoyed it. Glad to meet with other folks with the same interests. Bob, it was a pleasure to meet you as well. Let's do that again with other gears in the future, I am sure it will be fun! I am also impressed with the HP integrated amp. Let's talk some more when you get back from Europe. Allan |
@fsonicsmith Quoting you "Generally speaking, modern ARC gear tends to be fairly "in the middle" between classic tube and ss sound and I understand PL to be a bit more on the tube side of the spectrum." If you'll read my comments above, I thought the EL34-tubed DiaLogue Premium HP sounded very similar to the ARC VSi75 with KT150s. The listening didn't really bear out your assumption. But I do agree that listening over a much longer period of time would show more of the minute differences in these fine integrated amps. Please see Kevin's post several days back on 07-14-2017 2:06pm, where he has provided a link to the Taste of Tubes document you mention. He also mentioned later on that he hoped the readers of this thread had downloaded that document. Indeed a comparison between top ARC and PL gear would be fun. Kevin never claimed his gear were giant killers and but in fact he did say "I would be ecstatic with any of them, and would prefer them to a stack of reference solid state separates." |
