For me to enjoy the experience of listening to my system the most, the music has to sound good. And I agree that when the system is playing while I am doing other things, I don't pay close attention to either the music or the sound. But that doesn't necessarily make me doubt my system.
Concentration
I believe to get the best experience with your stereo you have to give your full attention to the music (not the sound.) Reading, doing chores, or writing something (like I’m doing right now) really lessens your enjoyment and can potentially cause you to doubt the quality of your system.
What do you think?
56 responses Add your response
For me, the question is, am I actually trying to "get the best experience with your stereo". That is not always the case as often, it is on as background music to take my mind off other mundane tasks I'm performing at the time. But I agree with you that attempting to get the best musical experience, it requires my full attention. Or maybe more to the point, it requires me NOT to be focusing on other things at the same time. We can't serve two masters at once. 🤣 |
My Experiencing an Audio System being used and the forming of Vocal and Instrumental Sound from the recording, which is what I refer to as the End Sound. Is always the most enjoyable when I am experiencing the systems End Sound in the same way I would expect to be hearing Vocal and Instrumental Sound being created at a Live Event, which is to be in the Company of others and it is a Part of a Social get together. My interest in recorded music is an extension of my interest in Live Music. It is my interest in Live Music that set me on the path to express an interest in recorded music and audio systems. I rarely listen to the dedicated audio system alone, and when done it is more typically in the Months with Longer Nights. This is usually a listening activity to assess an audio device for how it has a synergy within the Audio System. My Spouse is quite content to be with me for a proportion of these periods, the Valves do add a few degrees to the Ambient, so are quite homely in that respect. New Albums Purchased are usually debuted with my Spouse if she expresses an interest, or when guests are at my home or I am a guest at another's home. |
Hi Richard , Greetings from California. I’m hoping you have a great 4th of July and your health is holding up. For me I listen on different levels depending on the circumstances. Two weeks ago my wife and I attended Collective Soul live and we had front row seats. I sat in my chair and would intermittently close my eyes to focus with my ears on the music. My wife left her seat and was dancing up against the 4’ high stage. At home I find my material is now more dictated by sound quality than context. In other words better sounding material is rotated in more based on sound quality. This is unfortunate at times because I’ve stopped listening to bands I like , for example “ The Moody Blues “. When I’m in the mood to be fully immersed in my music I sit dead center , upright , lights dim and play in the 79-90 db range. My current rig WAS low power tube and had that magical sweet spot and not much else. I am in the process of putting together a large system with 180 wpc tubes and big tower speakers. I’m now listening to music at higher volume and more often off axis. I now play music in the 95-100 db range while doing dishes or cleaning the house. I also have a headphone rig in my bedroom with Audeze planer headphones. Anyway that’s my two cents and wishing you the best, Mike B. |
Another great question. I find listening to music very rewarding in three ways. The most profound first. 1. Lights off, eyes closed. Opening my mind as in mindfulness meditation. Not focusing on the music... letting it in and emotionally connect. In a mental state somewhat like emptiness. For those not familiar with Mindfulness. I highly recommend the WakingUp.com web site. Sam Harris’s (Phd in neuroscience) site has a two week free intro... fifteen minutes a day for two weeks. No religion... but training on how to stop the constant stream of thoughts and let experience in. Incredibly worthwhile, even if you do not pursue beyond this. Let the music in and experience it. If anyone doesn't know what I am talking about... I highly recommend trying this. For an incredibly small investment of time you can change your perception in a very positive way. 2. More what I think you mean. Lights off, eyes closed and let your minds eye focus on the music... mover around in it. Experience it. 3. While doing something. I paint and use my headphones every day. The music satisfies some real strong subconscious need allowing my to concentrate on painting. Working I used to use it to help my solve complex problems... it really facilitates it for me. I both enjoy the music... while not at all listening to it, and focusing my analytical side on something else. Great way of doing stuff. |
Depends on what you’re listening to. It’s most likely easier to concentrate on music when listening to classical, especially symphony. If you’re listening to acoustic jazz it’s easy to involuntarily shift attention to evaluating tone and how each instrument sounds. Listening to Leonard Cohen you want to focus more on lyrics with music being close second in importance. So it’s not a question that can be easily and the answered in my opinion. Too many variables. Happy 4th to you and everyone on this forum!!! |
Totally agree with you. I’ve definitely had moments where I was multitasking and thought something sounded off, only to sit down later, really listen, and realize everything was fine. Giving the music your full attention makes a huge difference. it’s like you hear things you’d completely miss otherwise. It’s easy to blame the gear when you’re not really engaged, but most of the time it’s just your brain being elsewhere. |
This is second thread I've seen in recent days concerning listening modes. I find it incredible that audiophiles claim they don't listen to sound and furthermore find it an inferior listening mode. Tonight was my first listening session with newly purchased Audio Note Quest 300B monoblocks, I was most certainly listening to the sound and I had a most enjoyable listening session. I now have three SET amps to choose from, each with unique sound qualities that are totally engrossing. I continue to find it amazing that audiophiles purposely ignore the sound of their audio systems, seems like it totally defeat the whole purpose of this endeavor.
I can understand how taking an analytical approach may lead to dissatisfaction , but can't that perspective also lead to an appreciation or admiration of sound quality. How can a qualitative appreciation of sound be an inferior mode of listening when it brings you closer to the musicians and the music they're bringing to us. I can't help but notice how the musicians appear to be in my listening room, minus a high.y resolving, transparent system I'd not have this experience, the sound of my system never loses it's salience for my senses. |
@unclewilbur very recently I stated in a Thread " and have developed a amusing to myself way of writing whilst being participant. " That is not to change, being forum active for myself, should have a little " joie de vivre " Now You Know the Pindac Fundamental is to be informative with a light heart you are welcome to not stop, but scroll past my Post if encountered |
@sns stated " Tonight was my first listening session with newly purchased Audio Note Quest 300B monoblocks, I was most certainly listening to the sound and I had a most enjoyable listening session. " I very recently introduced SET 300b Power Amplification into my own system, due to the 5W Per Channel Output, they have been used with a New to thee System Speakers and as a design quite new to me, being Transmission Line Dual Concentric with a 96dB and 106dB from the Two Drivers. A Delay was incurred to use 300b's as the Amp was using Takatsuki, which I declined to purchase. I was to source different Output Valves. The Speakers were used with the Resident PP 845 Monoblocks, and within a few moments the End Sound formed from these Speakers was compelling, a few additional sessions with my Wife present , led to us both agreeing the Speakers were something quite special in the way the End Sound was formed in the listening Space. The Speakers are agreed between ourselves to become my Wife's speakers on her yet to be put in place SS System, which will be with an Analogue Source / Streaming System > Neurochrome Power Amp. The 300b, was eventually adorned with very high quality Input Valves and not so high quality output Valves being Billington Gold 300b's of a 90's Vintage, with a measured reading showing a loss of optimised had occurred. These were bought for silly money as an infill until better Valves were purchased which are JJ 300b's and now in my possession. The Amp' with Billington's in use has been a extremely good experience in conjunction with the New TLDC Speakers, both myself and Wife were Jaw on the Floor, which was not expected, the End Sound being formed in the listening space was mesmerising. The couple of Visitors now having heard the 300b as a set up above are seriously impressed, their brought along 'trip a system up tracks', were not tripping up this set up. The Visitors comments made about the attractiveness of the End Sound Produced are no different to my own and Wife's description of the impression that has been made. When it comes to investing substantial sums (relating to my budget) over a long period of time in Audio Equipment. For myself, which has been a lengthy period of time as a learning curve, to get to where my thoughts on being participant are now. Leaves me with the notion a large part of my drive is for experiencing the Shaping and Structures of Vocals and Instrumentation created in the End Sound being produced. It is these experiences encountered that is the compelling force that makes me return and return. Where being investigative, extending on experiences had and furthering learning are of equal interest, as this exposes an individual to other End Sounds that are able to be produced, of which a proportion are must haves, even if not one produced in the owned system, being in a position to revisit and have a extension of an experience is a thing to be Grateful for. |
Often I’ll read or (horrors) browse while plopped down for a session. Occasionally a fee puffs of sativa may have occurred too. Often there’s a point where the music is so enjoyable that other activities stop and perhaps eyes get closed. I don’t drift off into slumber but morph into a stimulating but calm state. YMMV Lasy night Pharoah Sanders quartet Live in Hamburh “It’s easy to remember” got played twice in a row. Joy! |
I've never listened to my reference audio systems casually, number one it's not possible as I've always been drawn in by the quality of the sound. Another concern is finite life of tubes, some of these tubes are pretty expensive and rare, why would I use up this finite life to serve as background noise for other activities. |
Quick thoughts: I’m with @sns and believe that sound/music are not separable. As Brian Eno discovered -- and most others here are mentioning -- the notion that the "best" experience aligns with one kind of attention is a bit hard to accept. It’s like asking, "What the *best* kind of conversation -- a heart to heart about deep topics or a fun, shooting the bull conversation with banter, humor, etc.?" It’s another false choice. If you’re asking, "Is it a better experience to not be distracted when you’re trying to concentrate?" then the answer is "Obviously, yes." But that’s too easy a question, isn’t it? Possibly of interest: https://news.emory.edu/stories/2019/01/er_eno_book/campus.html "Lysaker is led to consider the different kinds of listening that “Music for Airports” requires. Even casual music fans would be familiar with background listening, the sonic accompaniment to other activities, and with performance listening, the focus required at a concert. Lysaker argues Eno’s willingness to use catchy musical phrases in the absence of clear rhythmic structures keeps “Music for Airports” from existing only in the background, while the lack of narrative development keeps it from serving as a showpiece. That leaves avant-garde listening, for sounds outside of traditional configurations of melodies and scales — for sounds such as reverb — and reverie listening, in which the music initiates open-ended reflection. Eno’s album provokes each kind of listening. Although no one can listen in all four ways at once, Eno’s deliberate engagement with each of the four creates that hazy and calm new space. But it also demands more than what German philosopher Theodor Adorno calls regressive listening, what we now think of as those who believe they are fully engaging with music only because it confers some kind of prestige. “The way we often theorize listening sounds passive,” Lysaker says. “I think Eno is showing that listening is active.” |
Your analogy is interesting but I don’t think it really works. We’re talking about a much more complex situation regarding SQ and music. While it is true we listen to music and sound at the same time, It’s the priority that we give to each that’s the issue. Audiophiles tend to separate the two because of the nature of the hobby. The population at large doesn’t really care about the fine points of sound, so for them the problem seldom exists.its this separation that causes the problem in us. I believe that it’s difficult for us to ignore the sound component as a separate entity. |
I disagree. If I listened to my system only when I can give it full, undivided attention I would be listening 20 or 30 minutes a day, as opposed to 5 or 6 or 7 hours. So, far from lessening my enjoyment, ancillary activities greatly multiply it. |
One other factor is relevant here. In one way we’re talking about apples and oranges. As I’ve said, those who listen to classical music generally have to concentrate a little more on to what is going on in the music. I believe that rock, pop and the like is detected more viscerally and instinctively than classical. |
Literally laughing aloud. You are killing me, @unclewilbur ! |
Obviously we're listening to the sound and music simultaneously, the two are inseparable. Which is most salient at any moment in time is the question. I can't recall a single listening session over many decades of listening to high end systems when sound quality or qualities didn't rise to primacy at certain times. This mostly due to the high variability in recording quality, how one could ignore the often extreme differences in sound quality between recordings seems unfathomable. The only time I can ignore this is when listening on midfi systems like I have at work or in cars, these systems homogenize recordings to a large extent
. I'm also very content listening to mediocre recordings, being attentive to the sound doesn't have to be a necessarily judgmental exercise. Beyond this, paying attention to sound quality can quickly morph into the music and/or performance of that music rising to primacy, I don't listen in only one unchanging mode. |
@rvpiano Thanks for the reply to my comment. Your word "priority" is one I associate with making a judgment after doing an analysis. I think of "making a judgment" as a different activity than "listening to music & sound" for enjoyment purposes. I’m sorry my analogy of "flavor" and "texture" doesn’t work for you. For me, musical content and sonic texture are entangled in that way. (Consider why people love YoYo Ma; it's not just his way of playing music, but his touch and tone; those seem like sonic elements to me.) Only if I am analyzing for some other purpose (adjusting the system) are they pulled apart to determine "priority." If one of them does become more salient, it is in the kind of experience sns describes, with one becoming more prominent than the other but neither disappearing or becoming irrelevant. In many of your posts, I notice you return to a struggle you have to keep your analytical side in check. That’s a valuable initiative, but I don’t think it reveals a reality about listening for everyone. |
Sure if you’re riding a unicycle juggling hatchets you’re not going to be concentrating on the music but under the different strokes for different folks (maybe not the best analogy or maybe the very best) analogy it’s possible absorption for many can happen at vastly different thresholds.
“Words that write the book I like Hi kye yay, yippie yi kye yay |
@wsrrsw nice pull on Tom Tom Club.
Also, I really had to train myself to stop listening to my system. To stop see if there's any deficiencies or something's off or if the balance is off or if maybe this tube is hissing or whatever. For a while that just wrecked listening for me. I was concentrating so much on the system that I forgot about the music much of the time |
@rvpiano lets say you’re in a Carnegie Hall or in a Lincoln Center. You’re listening to your favorite symphony. What do you concentrate on? How do you perceive and comprehend music? What do you listen to - sounds, music, performance or all of it at once? |
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I assume you mean this:
It’s a hard question. Classical compositions appeal at multiple levels -- they have to, because composers at that time were, in large part, composing music for the public. They had to make a visceral connection. That’s why even the non-classical listener knows the tunes to many compositions. If you’re talking about contemporary classical (e.g., say, Morton Feldman) there is often a lot of texture and experiments with sound textures in their work; one might even argue that this type of classical is even more reliant on listen to the sound aspect as much as the music -- or even pushing the listener *not* to radically separate them. I don’t think the types of music are as revealing as trying to typify different kinds of listening. This is what I mentioned below (regarding background listening, performance listening, reverie listening, and regressive listening). Let's think about each type of listening for a moment. I guess that the type of listening you're thinking about for classical is some kind of combination of "performance" and "reverie" listening. Background Listening: Sound serves as an accompaniment to other activities. Think of music playing in a coffee shop, while you're working, etc. But even background listening subtly shapes our experience and mood. * Performance Listening: This involves a focused and intentional engagement with a musical performance, e.g., at a concert, with the music as central. The listener is actively trying to follow the structure, melodies, harmonies, and overall development of the piece, often with an awareness of the musicians' skill and interpretation. * Reverie Listening: Music such as ambient music encourages a state of "reverie listening," a more open-ended and reflective engagement. The music spurs internal thought, imagination, and contemplation. One isn't necessarily dissecting the music analytically, but allowing it to initiate a flow of associations, memories, or reflections. Music creates a space for introspection without demanding rigid, focused attention. Regressive Listening: This describes listening that is not truly engaging with the music itself but rather with its social function or the prestige it confers. It's driven by external factors— to be seen as cultured, fit in with a certain group, etc. It's a pseudo-engagement where the listener is concerned about what the music does for them socially, rather than its intrinsic artistic qualities. What @sns has been saying -- and which Lysaker says in his book -- is that "sound" vs. "musical content" doesn't admit of a clean divide. In other words, they are not mutually exclusive. One can (and often does) shift between attending to acoustic details and semantic content. Lysaker offers the concept of "prismatic listening," which suggests a way of engaging that continually shifts attention between both the "sound" and the "music" (or broader conceptual meanings). This way of listening recognizes that no single approach can fully grasp a work -- there is an interplay between raw sonic experience and the ways we construct meaning from it. |
Classical composers - the vast majority of them, anyway - made music at the pleasure of European monarchies, courts and assorted hangers-on. The public was not concerned. This built-in perception of elitism endures. While most folks may know the first 20 seconds of Beethoven’s Fifth because it is incontournable, classical is perhaps the only music genre that periodically faces calls to be either removed from the curricula of public universities or to have public subsidy of its study and performance curtailed or ended.
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@devinplombier jazz was prohibited in the Soviet Union during Stalin’s regime. It was considered decadent bourgeois, western propaganda and a threat to communist/socialist ideology. People were arrested for distributing jazz recordings. If they found someone performing jazz in an underground club there would be severe consequences. |
Classical music is as visceral as Jazz but in his own ways... Musical time is not metronomical time nor acoustical time and in classical as in Jazz, the interpretation of what is written by the musicians or their improvisation together, together with or without a director, must create a time dimension of its own where our soul/body meet. Music experience of any cultures is rooted in "timbre" experience and is universal. Our body participation as players or as listeners to the vibrating sound source resonate as a new timing and time dimensions... Rythms are the root and timbre is the tree whose branchs are many new time dimensions. Concentration is born in our body real or virtual response gestures to the music perceived and/or created. |
I was talking about the general disconnect in democratic society between classical music and non-listeners, likely due to the perception of that genre’s elite origins. Music bans by totalitarian regimes are a whole different ball of wax. The Taliban bans all music, musicians, and instruments. Compare to Stalin’s laissez-faire :)
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“classical is perhaps the only music genre that periodically faces calls to be either removed from the curricula of public universities or to have public subsidy of its study and performance curtailed or ended” I don’t know where you get your information, but as someone who is in the business I can tell you that it’s far from the truth. |
Well yeah those who have a playlist that contains Cardi B’s WAP have a general disconnect. But not all is lost. I still don’t know why you made that statement originally and what your source for information was and I’m not questioning it. I learned to just use these types of posts for their sole purpose - entertainment |
The idea of the prismatic mode of listening so apt, I listen in all modes @hilde45 mentioned.
What has become most salient to me over decades of building systems and optimizing and improving them is a growing preference for more complex music played with acoustic instruments. As one's system improves much easier to follow complex and densely recorded lines, you get to finally hear much of the low level info that you may have missed in the past. And acoustic instruments have a 'natural' timbre which allows one comparison to a 'live' instrument. And so it seems the quality or qualities of our systems may impact our choices of music we choose to listen to. I continue to listen to many other genres and more simplistic, less complex music in which sound doesn't play as big a role, perhaps nostalgia, other emotions come into play. And all this can be seamless for me, with streaming I can play exclusively within a genre or randomly play from all genres, this all a single cut from an album. With random play I can go from lets say a classical cut to a honky tonk cut, listening modes may change quite drastically from cut to cut. I just let it be and let the music take me in whatever direction the robot chooses, amazing experience to let someone or something take over the CHORE of choosing which music to listen to. I'm just along for the ride!
Am I the only one that does this? The title of this thread mentions concentration, for me the above mode of listening requires the LEAST concentration. Back in the bad old days I remember having to look through multi thousand cd, vinyl collections, later on streaming library in order to find exactly what I thought I might want to listen to. I might spend 15 minutes deciding on some album, cd to play, that was not seamless listening for me, far too much concentration. |
@rvpiano I think this "concentration" is a good part of the reason why many say that vinyl sounds better than digital. I'm included in that lot, but my analog system is much superior and should sound better. But vinyl, by its very nature, causes us to pay more attention since music must be dealt with every 20 minutes. IOW it makes us pay attention much closer than digital. Just a thought.
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Music has nothing to do with sound quality...( But yes sound quality matter for me as for you) As any musician know...
Jazz or Persian music or classisal or Indian music are all different experience asking something from us: our attention... We concentrate on something we already knew by our attention focus habit... We dont concentrate on the "unknown" from which our attention focus deviate ( it is not my taste or my habit)... The quality of our attention determine the quality of our concentration in a feed back loop... To increase our attention we must expose ourselves to different music from different cultures... Then our concentration will increase... There is no concentration when we listen always the same genre only a body robotic response...
«Taste is a mistress not a teacher»--Groucho Marx
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@audphile1 yeah, but we know you know all the words to "WAP", and that you can never stir a pot of macaroni the same way ever again. |
