Comparison of sonic qualities of some tonearms

Same can be said of the DV -505… including just ploping it down on the plinth… yikes… $3k for an armboard is insane…. i balked at the $600 Brinkman wants and fabricated a short stack of Panzerwood, i’ve done same for the duplicates for the bespoke aluminum on the Italian plinth for the Demon….

carry on…

I am very happy that I purchased the Viv Float, but it is not cheap at US prices, or at least it depends upon how you define "cheap". I did get a better deal by purchasing it in Japan, in part because of a very favorable exchange rate, and thanks to the help of my son who speaks Japanese fluently. There were no Viv Float tonearms for sale in the various emporia I visited; they were all sold out and no one expected any inventory until about a month after we were to return home. (I am guessing they make them in batches.) So we contacted the company itself by phone. Dan talked to the owner, who speaks zero English but seemed like a cool guy, and we made a deal.

I really don’t like to mention it on this forum, because that only elicits dogmatic negative responses (or agreement from the few who have heard the tonearm). Anyway, so far I have auditioned 3 different cartridges on it. In each case, I believe the Viv brings out favorable qualities that I did not hear when those same cartridges were mounted on other "good" tonearms. Those qualities are a very relaxed, fluid sound (which feels like lower distortion, compared to conventional pivoted overhung tonearms) and a notable capacity to separate instruments in complex musical passages. Or at times the Viv can just sound good. Most importantly, it never sounds excessively distorted, as orthodoxy would predict it should. But I realize this is all controversial.

I might add that my best results with the Viv are using either a Yamamoto or Oyaide carbon fiber headshell, over the OEM metal headshell but the sample size is too small to justify an unqualified conclusion.  And I own the 9-inch aluminum version, which I failed to mention above. So, CF headshell on alu Viv.

@tomic601 Panzerwood? That stuff is ugly as h-ll. Send me a template and I will make you a handsome one out of Rosewood or Ebony. Both are extremely dense having a specific gravity almost as high as water. I laminate it with 1/16" thick aluminum plate. You can drill and tap holes for screws.  

@lewm Did you forget that I am a dog. I have respect for the fact that you were brave enough to try it. I tried the Transcriptor's Vestigial Arm. Looking back on it, that was more stupid than brave. 

@rauliruegas I would like to emphasize your point on having a reference. 

When tuning a HiFi system you have to have some idea of where you are going. You have to have a reference. You have to know what is possible with the very best systems, which is why listening to serious high end systems is so important even if you can not spend that kind of money. Never say you can't get that kind of sound out of a less expensive system. People would be surprised how close they can get with careful equipment choice, attention to detail and good room management. 

I briefly owned a Transcriptors Reference TT with Vestigial tonearm. I think it was the tonearm that motivated me to sell it, but our ideas, and my own knowledge, of tonearm characteristics was quite limited back then (1980s). 

@lewm I am very pleased to witness your statement, That you are very pleased with your Viv investigation and that there is a indelible recollection of a Blissful Memory of a particular permutation for it's use.

I know this experience, which I will suggest is one that is quite discernable and a betterment over previous commonly encountered experiences.

As for my best experience with my Tonearm of choice, it is when a group of  Like Minded friends were visitors and among the banter and spread of food, they were just so influenced by the presentation and ended up re-evaluation their own vinyl sources.

@mijostyn As for P'holz, I have encountered it veneered with beautiful Cocobolo and Pippy Maple, as well as Polished Metal.

I take both life and my P'holz neat  

On the Tonearm subject, the Supatrac Blackbird, has had it's own path of crtitics to get to the point where it now has the endorsement of Mark Dohmann and is a offering from Dohmann Turntables. 

Additionally, Micheal Fremer has also recently put it through the Wringer, and the impression made is well worth reading. 

I know of this TA and the good impression it generates. 

@mijostyn from one dog to another, your offer accepted… i’ve got the “ neat “ Panzerholtz covered thinking “ pretty is as pretty does “…. but one look at the applewood veneer on my Denon should reveal…my wood.. for Wood tendencies….

@lewm I applaud your import ! Appreciate another + input on that arm… which seems the case for people who have actually HEARD it….

@pindac it seems you are living the good audiophile / music lover community life ! i try to build same !
 

Agree w Mijo - get out and HEAR other systems but also have a reference….

Dear @drbond  : " it is an expensive hobby ".

Well it could be as expensive as is the knowledge level of us audiophiles. You made it expensive when choosed your TT with out took in count the additional arm boards price.

As you move up in the learning ladder as lesss expensive could be the hobby.

I think that still own the Atlas and the Koetsu and please let me ask wat's wrong or what dislike you with the 2 tonearms you mated it? 

You already have in mind the SAT and SAFIR that considered the first and second " best ":

" if we discuss the technical components of tonearms, does the supposed sonic success of the Kuzma Safir, with an effective mass of 60g, which is possibly only second to the SAT in sonic performance, demonstrate how little is known about how the tonearm actually works in reality? "

SAT is a good design and its main characteristic is its excellent quality levels in manufacture but it's not a tonearm that has any " news/discoveries " to the audiophile  tonearm experiences. The real seller of the SAT 9" was its review in Stereophile even at that very high  price.

The SAFIR success could be to audiophile " ignorance "  on what that dinamyc high mass does to any cartridge suspension and tracking.

Both tonearm were/are the new kids in the block.

Here you can read some objectiv measures on the Helix ( not to good ) and one of your tonearms:

HiFi-News-H2-Dohmann-Review.pdf (dohmannaudio.com)

Btw, normally the top cartridges are designer/manufacture voiced through normal pivot tonearms not underhung ones.

You ask for the VIV that taking in count my last statement seems to me does not to much sense to ask for.

If you can share the why's on your tonearms/cartrisges and this thread will put ligth rigth in the thread and maybe could you have better advise of what you are looking for.

R.

Back on the Threads Title.

For myself I can't say a TA ,has a sonic quality that is better or worse than any ,other.

I am without any doubt there are designs much better through design choices and materials selection that come with inherent capabilities, that will be discernible and ,potentially quite noticeable in, how the Cartridge can function. 

As the Cart;' is Transferring the energies ,produced from ,having groove modulation ,pass by it. The Cart's function and dependency on the TA is looking like the device in conjunction with  the TA, that is responsible for the sonic quality.

The only other attachment to Sonic Quality from a TA is the Signal Path designed for it, ,how many connections from Cart' Pins to Phnonostage and the Wire Type.

I don't see the TA's Structure or Materials being solely the Sonic Influence, but   more the means to manage energies of which some might be possibly an audible and detectable colouration ??  

Dear @fsonicsmith  : " That is my opinion and you are welcome to yours. "

Thank's, to each his own.

R.

Dear @rauliruegas

To address your points:

I presently have at least 5 MC cartridges. I enjoy each of them, and each has its own strengths and weaknesses, and I do have a favorite, but that’s for another thread.

The SAT and Safir seem to have the best reviews overall, but not many have heard them enough to validly compare to more common tonearms.

I have the Helix One, which I would think would sound very similar to the Helix Two, but those who have A-B’d both say that the Helix One sounds much better. . .how much better, and in what ways? I don’t know. . .but again, that discussion can be reserved for another thread.

I was simply asking about the Viv tonearm because a couple commented about their ownership, so it would be interesting to hear two different perspectives on the tonearm, with respect to timbre of various instruments, sound stage, evenness of sound, etc. . .

I’m content with my system, but I started this thread in the interest of hearing other peoples’ experiences with their different tonearms.

.Thanks. 

@pindac The Blackbird is a brilliant design. I think calling it a sideways unipivot is somewhat derogatory. It is a braced pendulum bearing pivoting on a horizontal thrust bearing. The mechanism is not obvious looking at the arm and it is hard to explain in words. I am not fond of the string finger lift. I prefer the old fashioned kind. Otherwise I see no reason why it should not be a grand performer. It is ugly as h-ll, but that would not stop me. 

@drbond I have a reasonable amount of experience with the Saphir and none with the SAT. Neither tonearm interests me in the least. I do not think either arm offers anything over arms that cost significantly less and are even better designs. Yes, a lot of people are impressed with these arms and I would say they are being swayed by expectation bias.  I'm still waiting for Dohmann to put a vacuum plater on the Helix, but had I one I would put either a Reed 5T, a Schroder LT or both on it. They offer the benefit of extremely low tracking error and no skating with similar effective mass in both directions. This is more than enough to separate them from the pack including both the SAT and Kuzma arms. 

@mijostyn

While at recognize that the linear tracking tonearms would theoretically offer a better soundstage, experience can occasionally defy theory…which is why I won’t dismiss others’ experiences, even though it may defy logic and theory, especially when the theory isn’t proven law.

Well, I just tried to post a long and thoughtful response, including experimental data plots, but it was blocked. No good deed as they say.

Suffice it to say, you are right to ask a very good question. Don’t fall for the bland assertions made by those who cannot conceive of a universe in which their intuitions and tastes are not laws of nature. Sapphire can sound good - I’ve made one. But I can make a better one from natural fibre composites. Panzerholz too is very good - just as good as it measures - see my virtual system - no, better not, it’s ugly as h-ll.

Ebony, by the way, measures so badly that it should never be considered. IMO.

Is that not the irony, Talk Measurements to death and disregard all data at the expense of aesthetic. 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but some beauty is the outward expression and not the coating that is seen. 

P'holz has oodles of outward expression 😍

@terry9 

Interesting statements about natural fibers and tonearm composition.  Do you have listening experience comparing various natural fibers (by which I assume you mean wood?) with carbon fiber or magnesium or other element on a similar base?  Any take home differences in your comparisons?  

No its not impossible if you compare using the same cartridge on 2 different arms

Why do so many cartridge manufacturers and after market modders (e.g. Zu) offer different cartridge shells? If certain pundits in this thread were correct that a tonearm can only be neutral or degrade the sound than what is happening when the wood, choice of stone (Koetsu, Etsuri), composite, or alloy cartridge shell is applied to a given motor? The answer is rather obvious; the manufacturer understands that for any given motor assembly a shell choice can compliment and not detract.

Nothing is more imperfect than audio reproduction via vinyl records! It is laughingly crude. Think of The Flintstones and Barney putting the bird’s head and beak down to a record rotating on a round rock. A mere harmless cartoon and yet ironically not far from the truth.

The fact that there is so much beauty, love, and enjoyment to be had from playback of vinyl records is testament that the process is part science and a very healthy part art.

@drbond Theory?? No tracking angle error and very little if any skating force? Those are huge benefits, not that you can ignore other aspects of tonearm design. Schroder and Reed arms are otherwise well designed and built with only very minor quibbles. I have no doubt both will handily outperform any offset pivoted arm including the SAT and Saphir. I would and will bet my own money on that. IMHO the only reasons that the SAT and Saphir sound so good is the looks and the price. The Mark Levinson Rules of Audio Performance. In order to sound good a unit has to look sharp and cost a fortune. 

@pindac Panzerholtz attractive? Fancy plywood? There is so much beauty in nature and natural wood that is every bit as functional as panzer holtz. The only problem is these woods like Ebony, Cocobolo, Lignam Vitae and other rosewoods are expensive a h-ll. If you want constrained layer construction it is child's play to throw an aluminum layer in there. Panzerholtz, yuk! 

@mijostyn No, the problem is that some, like ebony, have huge peaks and valleys in frequency response. Koetsu uses rosewood, Grado uses Cocobolo, and can make cartridges that sound exquisite - but there are better choices for tonearms.

You say, "There is so much beauty in nature and natural wood that is every bit as functional as panzer holtz." So you say - proof? Evidence? You know -= anything other than assertion?

Oil - yuk! its just rotten remains of plants. And Rembrandt used OIL paint! Yuk Yuk Yuk.

Reed, the tonearm manufacturer, did extentensive testing on metals and exotic woods. They took down many of their test measurements, but some remain available. I tried to link to that part of their site, but was unsuccessful. You might try their site and see.

I’ve used all aluminum and all Panzerholz in a commercial LT, and in my own air bearing LT have compared sapphire, Panzerholz, cocobolo, katalox, and pampas grass for various parts of the wand. Supporting cast includes silk, aluminum, brass, stainless, epoxy. The best is pampas grass / cocobolo / katalox composite, but all Panzerholz is not far behind. I use cocobolo only for the cartridge mount, because I use that wand for a cartridge which is made of cocobolo.

I’m too impatient (and too poor) to do exhaustive comparisons of each part, so theory dictates what gets made into prototypes. Every material has its own characteristics and may be suitable for a different use. I discriminate against none.

@mijostyn 

Yes, I would agree, that, all else being equal, a LT tonearm should best a pivoted tonearm; however, there are all sorts of other variables in the equation, such as materials, bearings, etc.  
Thanks. 

Dear @drbond : The issue is not really if the LT beats a pivoted one because that is only theory.

The @mijostyn " huge " differences are only in the " mind " does not exist in true. . This is only an example with the SAT 12" Löfgren B alignment where the average RMS distortion is 0.32% that no one can be aware off it but additional and through the LP grooved surfaCE THE TRACKING LEVEL DISTORTION AT EACH CONSECUTIVE GROOVE CHANGES ONLY 0.009%. Mijos, you, me or any one else can't detect it.

So, what are we really talking about? only theory and good intentions.

R.

@rauliruegas  True. And generous too. 

@rauliruegas  Who said anything about a huge difference? I seem the recall specifying at the beginning of this thread that the sonic difference between these arm is extremely minor. I said, "It is not how it sounds it is how it works." I'm sure you would agree that some arms work better than others. IMHO it is not improved tracking error that is the major benefit it is the fact that these arms are not offset, no skating. You can never stop skating with an offset arm you can only minimize it and there is a lot of disagreement in how that should be done. Perhaps this is why people like their Viv arms.  Then again, the best arm made it the one I own at any give moment. Everything I stated before is not theory, It is all common physics and geometry. 

@drbond  Absolutely, All that matters. I can buy the very best bearing for $10.00. The very best carbon fiber bicycle frame costs $6000. The wheels with ceramic bearings cost $2500. The Helix, and you know how much I respect that table, might have $8000 worth of materials. The prices of luxury audio are falsely elevated because there are people who will pay for it. It is how these little companies stay alive, maybe. There is always equipment mid pack that will perform sonically just as well if not even better. The JC 1 amplifiers were a great example. When they came out a lot of jaws dropped three feet.

Well, @lewm is partly right.  I haven't heard a real tonearm comparison in thirty-five-plus years.  Back then there were dealers, mainly Linn who might have as many as three LP12s with three different arms and a Supex 900 Super on all of them.  But those days are long gone.  You have to travel to different cities just to listen to tonearms on your list let alone set up in any way that you can make an honest judgment call.  And as far as shows go, well, you might be able to look at them.

One thing I learned-a good tone arm has to have sufficient mass. You can put the best cart on an arm with insufficient mass and it will sound like an old ceramic cartridge. There are many good designs out there. I installed a Koetsu Urushi Black on a 1974 Pioneer direct drive. After making modifications to the tone arm, it sounded like a $20,000 set up

I don’t think you got my point. My point was you really cannot listen to a tone arm in isolation, because you are always listening to the combination of a cartridge and the tone arm with a dollop of turntable effect thrown in for good measure. Therefore I think one has to judge a tone arm in one’s own listening environment with a variety of cartridges before drawing any conclusion about the tone arm itself. Of course, this is assuming the tone arm is of a basic decent quality to begin with.

@lewm 

While, theoretically, you are correct about comparing tonearms (or anything, for that matter, as no one is even the same moment to moment); realistically, assuming that you have a cartridge that doesn't resonate poorly with the tonearm, keeping the turntable, cartridge , and LP the same, and changing out tonearms to compare differences in sound quality, would be a very good comparison.  That's all we need, but apparently almost no one (except probably dealers) does this to any degree to offer real insightful comparison of various tonearms. 

Never say never.

Wooden arm delivers astonishing detail retrieval. 

Umami Red cartridge in a Reed 3P 10.5 inch Macassar Ebony arm and yes the cable comes out the side. Grand Prix Monaco 2.0 direct drive turntable with battery power supply. Nagra HD Phono stage. 

Tangential arm sounding great with a more forward sound than the wooden arm.

Benz Gullwing cartridge in an Eminent Technology II tangential air bearing arm in an Oracle 7 turntable. Moore Frankland Super Lumi phono stage.

Don't let anyone put you off with sweeping generalizations like stay away from wooden or tangential arms. Keep exploring and find the solution that works for you. 

The website for Origin Live Turntables says there are more than eight hundred turntable companies. That's a lot to plow through before you can make sweeping generalizations. When experiment contradicts theory, theory must give way no matter how learned the theorist.

* listened to a variety of music. e.g. Brahms German Requiem conducted by Klemperer, Allman Brothers Live at Fillmore East, LA Four Executive Suite. And lots of others. On both setups you can clearly hear the difference in recording technique going from one album to the next. Both turntable setups were highly enjoyable and emotionally moving.

drbond, There is really no difference between the experiment you propose and my recommended approach, except a different variable is being manipulated, and by the way, you have to have a control for any experiment, which in my case would be other tonearms with which you are familiar, and it must be in your own home system, not at any dealer's.  This is not something you can do in a day or two.  For good measure, you should plan to go back and forth between the tonearm under evaluation and the one or two tonearms you are using for controls.  No one is going to do any of this, which is why opinions on tonearms published here are usually to be taken with a bag of salt.

@terry9 I don't share the extent of materials and designs put together for testing as you have, but do have an experience of different materials, designs and interfaces to have drawn on my own thoughts, that enables myself  create a reasonable description, being one I will refrain from being cocky, and suggest it is not conclusive.  

It is no secret, that the quality of the end produced sonic that are very much recommended by those with experiences of attempts to optimise the final presentation are dependent on much more than the Tonearm alone.

The Platter Spindle Function, Tonearm Function/Set Up, Tonearm Geometry, Cart Geometry, Cart' Design/Function and Signal Path, all contribute to certain degrees of influence on the end produced sonic, especially in how the term Quality will be assessed.

With the above list in mind, it strongly suggests each experience will be met with variances in how an impression is made and how one is influenced from the experience had, as not oine individual will be commenting on a ubiquitous set up. 

Bypassing the above list and focusing on Materials used for a Tonearms Assembly.

From your experiences do you have a assessment, and possibly one that aligns with my own that strongly suggests.

The parts that are rigidly fastened when in use have an impact on the end sonic in a way that improves the quality of sound, i.e, enables more Attack, Detail, Dynamics and Envelope to be resolved, or impacts in a similar discernible perception impacts on the tonality and timbre of the produced sound of which a certain material may be able to create a tonal range and timbre that is more aligned to ones own preferences.

My most recent experience with an indelible outcome, has been on the Tonearm where I was very encouraging for the use P'holz as a headshell.

The previous headshells produced in Plastics, Thermoplastic, Aluminium and Magnesium were Superseded by the use of P'hpolz.

It was this experience that encouraged me to pursue a P'hpolz Headshell @ approx' 9 grams, be produced for the modified uber rigid SME Bayonet connector I have access to.

I am hoping to have an experience very soon in March of comparing the headshell types Magnesium @ 9gram, AT Technihard and P'hpolz @ approx' 9 grams.  

I am also to give my friend who will be present and also produces' the Tonearm in use for the demo's, the  go-ahead to have the AT Technihard reduced to approx' 9g if the material presents in a way that impresses. 

Just being a (semi-) wise-*ss, but I still find anyone naming their product 'Vestigial'...

Vestigial (organ) is a degenerate organ or structure or physical attribute that has little to no function in the species but possessed an essential function in the preceding evolutionary form of the species. It is the retention of genetically-encoded structure accompanied by loss of function in the species.

...is either an inside joke or a pointed commentary....😏

Now, I've still own LPs'....and 3 + TTs', so I'm committed in my own fashion. ;)

...but they're all tangential arms in various ways.

Half tempted to take a joust at making a 'nuevo-Rabco' that won't drive people crazy,...and is silent, and works without an air compressor....and won't make your CCard wilt...

...but I diy Walsh speakers that work.

Somebodys' got to push an envelope that has no return address....*L* ;)

Others have already pointed this out and I may as well pile on:

The sound of the tonearm is highly conditioned on matching, to the cartridge and imho also to the table.

It’s trial and error. Better for many people to buy them from a dealer who has done the trialing and erroring for you and is selling them as a package, but best to take the time to do it yourself, you will learn more.

I have been using a Sumiko MMT with a VPI HW MK IV and two Koetsus, an Onyx and a Rosewood Signature, for several decades.

See

theaudioatticvinylsundays.com/about

for details of the rest of the system.

@mijostyn : " Those are huge benefits, not that you can ignore other aspects of tonearm design. "

In the example measurements of the SAT tonearm its maximum tracking erro is a " huge " 1.42° but only at one surface place, normally the tracking error is around 0.5° to -0.5°

What I said is that pivoted LT has no " huge " differences or beats the normal pivoted tonearms and both normally beats any LT tonearm in the bass range performance more or less in the same bass range where digital always is superior to the LP experience/alternative..

R.

asvjerry, That may be why the Vestigial tonearm, supplied by Transcriptors with their still futuristic turntables, lies in the dustbin of audio history.  The other reason is it was a terrible design.

Pindac, I was surprised not to see carbon fiber on your list of headshell materials to be evaluated.  In the right context (with medium to high compliance cartridges), I have had favorable experiences. Also, Ortofon and Yamamoto both make creditable wooden headshells that are not P'holz.

@rauliruegas 

Yes, the standard pivoted tonearm has a 1-1.5 degree tracking error.  The linear tracking tonearm that I have mounted (Reed 5A) has a 3-4 minute tracking error (which is 1/15-1/20 of a degree);  I don't know if it is this lower tracking error is responsible for the difference that I hear, but it seems reasonable that it could account for the improved soundstage that I hear when playing the LT tonearm.  

Did anyone ask @drbond what the goal is with another arm? Improvement over the Reed (which looks very nice)? A second arm for mono or a cartridge that likes to see higher mass?

If you want an amusing read, go find j.g. holt's original review of the Transcriptor's arm- it is a hoot to read and the back and forth with the manufacturer in the follow up comments to the review are equally funny.

I have no overarching view on the merits of various tonearms- since I'm not looking at specs, and have to hear them in situ. 

@mijostyn 's comment about the lack of bass from a conventional linear tracker is fair, but somehow, changing the cartridge-- Koetsu stone, adding subwoofers and readjusting the entire system to a new room gives me dimensional, very filled in bass that sounds natural on the lower registers with acoustic instruments- piano, double bass, etc. So, even that "truth" about the lack of bass in the conventional style linear tracker can be shaded by context and may be system-dependent in my experience. 

I am going to offer a slightly different perspective here as there have been several mentions of the Safir in this thread. I own a Safir and combine it with a Koetsu Blue Lace, a Koetsu SUT and a CS Port turntable. I have progressed through five different analog combinations over the past 5 or 6 years, ultimately arriving at my current setup. I had previously run an Audio Oragami arm on a Palmer turntable and so the change created by the Safir was truly material. 

I understand the potential for multiple types of bias in evaluating the impact of a new component and unfortunately the audiophile game doesn't lend itself to blind studies and controlled A/B testing (cartridge buying, for example, is often a leap of faith as what dealer will "lend" you a cartridge to try?) We can read reviews and look at the measurements and test data, but in the end it comes down to the actual sound. I recently read a review of some new Dan D'Agostino equipment and Dan was quoted as follows:

"In the end, I'm only interested in how good a component sounds. I'm never going to make something that sounds impolite, buzzes, hums, or only works with a certain speaker. But I do not care about the measurements when I look at my Audio Precision or HP stuff. When it shows me a reasonable output and indicates that it's doing a good job, that's all I care about."

For me, the Safir brought a new level of presence to the music I love (Bill Evans, Art Pepper, Steely Dan, James Taylor, etc) and I heard detail previously lost. And more importantly to me, there was nothing "tiring" in the reproduction and so I can listen for hours and enjoy. And when I then moved to the CS Port and added the new Koetsu pieces, I again heard and experienced a similar improvement. 

I will leave it to others to debate that on paper (or in specs) there are "better" choices, because in the end it really should come down to how the music sounds. 

@thr1961

Thanks for sharing your experience with your tonearms.

@whart

The purpose of this thread isn’t necessarily to improve my system. Given my limited experience, I found it rather odd that no one really commented on tonearms, as I’ve found that they can make a sizeable difference in music reproduction. I really just wanted to hear about others’ experiences with their tonearms, but it seems like very few have taken the time to investigate and experience on their own.

Dear @thr1961  : As you said a bnew audio item in our system changes the " picture ", we are prepared and expected that that can happens.

You own a very nice system and the problem with the Safir it's not if you like it or not ( as we said we are prepared for that . We are prepared for the new kind of " distortions/colorations " that we can't avoid. ) the real issue is those dynamic mass 60grs. under play for the cartridge it self and for the cartridge tracking due that the Safir in reality is an unipivoted design and no matters what from there comes unstability/chatering and the like that develops what we like on it but that tonearm sooner or latter will damages your Blue Lace with that " insane " EM and if you are prepared for that then go a head. At the end you already paid for it and is what you like.

I read about the Safir in other audio forums and read magasine reviews and only in this Agon forum we put the finger where it " painful ".

R.

Dear @chowkwan  : " sweeping generalizations like stay away from wooden or tangential arms. "

Well I have a lot of fgirsthand experiences with " wooden ": I owned the Koetsu Rosewood, Rosewood Signature, Rosewood Signature Platinum, Goldbug Brier, Benz Micro Ruby/Ruby 2/Ruby 3/ Cardas Heart/ LP/LPS and tonearms as the Reed/Grace/ and several headshells even  I listened many times the Teres Cocobolo that I see you not own but other kind of TTs.

About LT tonearms I owned the ET2, Denessen, Southern and listenes to other ones and even with all what @whart pointed out the mid and low bass range ( everything the same ) in the pívoted tonearms is better. Yes, LT tonearms has its own advantages. I sold my LT tonearms when I learned that MUSIC belongs ( not to the mid-range ) to the bass range and is better this FR as better not only the mid range frequency but your room/system quality performance levels.

I already said wooden/LT never again but this is me and to each his own.

Btw, I really like your ET panels and that JBL oldie I listened several times in those years and it was an unforgetable experience as the Altec of those times too.

R.

Dear @drbond  " That's all we need, but apparently almost no one (except probably dealers) does this to any degree to offer real insightful comparison of various tonearms.  "

That is at least the third time you posted the same where obviously you could trust more on dealers about that audiophiles that not only in this thread but in Agon know a lot more and deep aBOUT AUDIO SUBJECTS THAT ANY AUDIO DEALER  OUT THERE THAT AS REVIEWERS ARE BIASED THROUGH MANUFACTURERS.

Sorry for the majors, my finger.

As you said and showed through your thread you are and still are a newcomer to analog and even wirth all what other gentlemans already posted here you still do not understand why what you ask for it's not possible that you get in any forum or with any dealer and as @lewm  pointed out you can't do it in your system in 2 days.

I already posted to you ( I think you dislike it even that was trying to help you. ) that you need to learn for your self and that you need not only months to do it but maybe years and have to learn listen it too other systems than yours and you have to have a very clear REFERENCE to make any comparison along your targets MUSIC/sound priorities. Nothing came/comes at random and what you are looking for you can't buy it but money can accelerates the whole proccess.

R.

@rauliruegas

So far, very few Audiogon members have expressed an ability to compare tonearms, which leads me to my conclusion: very few on this forum have actually compared tonearms, which rationally only leaves dealers, who, of course, are biased to one degree or another; but some biased information is better than no information at all.

Vertical Tracking Angle (VTA) and Stylus Raking Angle (STR) are the two most important factors in getting optimal tonearm / cartridge performance. There are many available resources to gain an understanding of the methods and tools needed to achieve this level of optimization.

As said earlier, any Tonearm comparison is limited if the experience had is one that is using different mounting for TT, Different TT, Different Cart’s and Electronic Signal Path.

The only honest thing that can be deduced is by the individua; present, and this will be limited to such a decision to the likes, of whether the Tonearm has impressed enough to have it as a contender to be used on the home system.

This as a practice is not comparing Tonearms in any way, shape or form, it is merely expanding ones experiences only.

Most of my Tonearm Comparisons over the past few years, have been same TT support, same TT > Plinth > same TA Mount > same Cart.

In many comparisons it has been modified TA Model vs earlier guise, and prior to this, it has been on a few occasions the TA in comparison to other TA’s.

An Upcoming session has a TT produced to enable multi arms between 9" and 12" with the same Cart’ mounted, and one of the TA Models which is a new design will have options on different Signal Wires to be used as well.

There is a hope to have approx’ 5 Branded TA’s used in comparison to the New Design TA.

It is during this session or one of these sessions depending how it unfolds that the underhung geometry will be used for the New Design TA, this in itself has an attraction to myself, underhung discussions has got intrigued.

@lewm I have a familiarity with a CF Headshell from many years past, which was experienced in a few different set ups and did not wed to the tonal influence, I personally don’t know anybody who uses one at present.

The very light CF Headshell, I made known recently, that one got my attention, so who knows, If I find one at a reduced price, maybe CF will get a revisit.

@drbond +1 "So far, very few Audiogon members have expressed an ability to compare tonearms, which leads me to my conclusion: very few on this forum have actually compared tonearms, which rationally only leaves dealers, who, of course,” your observation is correct! (same applies to every other topic here as well) 

I'm sorry, Dr. Bond, but I seem to have missed the point. I sidetracked myself into a discussion about materials.

I think that we can all agree that a cartridge can only sound its best when it is held rigidly at the correct angles: tangential, VTA, and azimuth.

That means adjustment. The finer the adjustments, and the better they are maintained, the better the sound. So adjustability should be considered as well as rigidity and damping. IMO