Comparison of sonic qualities of some tonearms

@tomic601  : " I also am glad products like Safir exist "

 

Why are you glad when the cartridge overall suspension/cantilever looks a inertia moment of at least 70grs? what is your foundation reasons to be glad.

 

R.

Dear @lewm @mijostyn : Azimuth is always important as the other carrtridge set up parameters ( my tonearms comes with the AZ facility. ) but even in niormal LT tonearm and even that the stylus is in rigth position relative to a centered cantilever it's not easy to " predict " LP by LP under dynamical listen sessions if the stylus tip always is rigth on in AZ at each groove. I think never can happens.

 

For the OP and if he decided to return to post he needs too share the VTA and VTF used in each one cartridge ( 5 ) due that some of us could have the same models.

 

R.

Dear @lewm ​@mijostyn : Yes, several of us are talking of almost the same but the OP who posted:

 

" on the Helix, and the differences are dramatic, so I would imagine that for just about all tonearms..."

that comment it’s not even anecdotic, To be that way he needs to share first which of those 2 tonearms was the winner, which cartridges used for his comparisons, which LPs tracks were used for the test, at what SPLs he listened with all cartridges and which differences were the ones that he listened in each of those LPs tracks he used and the kind of alignment he used in the non LT tonearm.

 

The OP is asking for " something " that not even him did it not showed/shared here.

@drbond what’s up down there down your comparisons?

 

I think he needs to be serious about.

 

R.

@drbond  : That's your usual response that it's not constructive  I already told you why in my opinion you are wrong in this specific tonearm subject.

 

However in your thread you don't post yet why the other gentlemans I named are wrong and where are your foundation to think they are and that you are rigth or at least that in this forum no one knows about because this is what you posted 4 times with no facts that could prove it.

I said you are wrong and is only an opinion and I was not proven nothing: only said with foundation in all the other gentlemans posts and in what you posted.

R.

@drbond : " very few on this forum have actually compared tonearms, which rationally only leaves dealers, who, of course, are biased to one degree or another; but some biased information is better than no information at all. "

 

Four time that confirm what I write in my last post. You need to learn to understand in true the tonearm subject that you still just do not " discern " even that you think you did it and you think you did it in a " record time " using only two tonearms and 2-5 cartridges in the same TT. Well I know that you are not a genius but is fine with me.

 

" and the differences are dramatic, so I would imagine that for just about all tonearms…I’ll try a third in the near future…"

Wrong conclusion even that you now has a " fan " that suddenly posted and that’s way over wrong that you are. To each his own.

Even that you need to make a test with to same tonearms and with 2 different cartridges where you listen one of those cartridges that you mount in one of those same tonearms and in second step after your listen sesession you take that cartridge and then you mount in the other similar tonearm and listen it and through this comparison come here ( after doing that with those 2 different cartridges ) and share what you found out. I don’t care if you don’t do that it’s your decision.

In the other side, maybe you need to have a little more clear the intrinsical relationship between a cartridge and the tonearms where it is mounted.

A cartridge per sé and during play develops its own kind of " distortions " and the tonearm during play develops too its own self of distortions that with an specific cartridge can be a mate in heaven and in other tonearm not at the same level ( everything the same ) but this does not means that the " heaven mate " is better tonearm than the other second tonearm: what that means is only that the first tonearm mates better with that specific cartridge. Of course that if the differences are " nigth and day " with 5 cartridges in the row then that tonearm or is totally inferior or it’s out of its design specs.

The other issue in that " everything the same " other that the cartridge/tonearm " perfect " set up is that both tonearms have the same internal wire and input/output connectors.

 

I’m not " offended " in anyway with your 4 times post and your " fan " because I know with all respect to you that gentlemans as @terry9 @lewm @mijostyn @chowkwan ​@viridian ​@wrm57 ​@whart and others ( to many to mention all ) are way better and with higher knoledge levels in this specific tonearm subject that you and I know too that the ignorance level of all those gentlemans is way lower that your high ignorance levels in this specific regards and you make things " complicated " because you don’t let that any one help you in anyway about.

 

Btw, I have 2 similar self design/build pivoted tonearms are identical in every characteristic but the internal bearing type where one is an ABEC 9 gimball and the other jewl and both performs with excellent quality levels. Exist differences that can you detect where you could say this is better than the other? maybe you can maybe not.

 

R.

 

 

Dear @drbond  " That's all we need, but apparently almost no one (except probably dealers) does this to any degree to offer real insightful comparison of various tonearms.  "

That is at least the third time you posted the same where obviously you could trust more on dealers about that audiophiles that not only in this thread but in Agon know a lot more and deep aBOUT AUDIO SUBJECTS THAT ANY AUDIO DEALER  OUT THERE THAT AS REVIEWERS ARE BIASED THROUGH MANUFACTURERS.

Sorry for the majors, my finger.

 

As you said and showed through your thread you are and still are a newcomer to analog and even wirth all what other gentlemans already posted here you still do not understand why what you ask for it's not possible that you get in any forum or with any dealer and as @lewm  pointed out you can't do it in your system in 2 days.

 

I already posted to you ( I think you dislike it even that was trying to help you. ) that you need to learn for your self and that you need not only months to do it but maybe years and have to learn listen it too other systems than yours and you have to have a very clear REFERENCE to make any comparison along your targets MUSIC/sound priorities. Nothing came/comes at random and what you are looking for you can't buy it but money can accelerates the whole proccess.

 

R.

 

 

Dear @chowkwan  : " sweeping generalizations like stay away from wooden or tangential arms. "

Well I have a lot of fgirsthand experiences with " wooden ": I owned the Koetsu Rosewood, Rosewood Signature, Rosewood Signature Platinum, Goldbug Brier, Benz Micro Ruby/Ruby 2/Ruby 3/ Cardas Heart/ LP/LPS and tonearms as the Reed/Grace/ and several headshells even  I listened many times the Teres Cocobolo that I see you not own but other kind of TTs.

About LT tonearms I owned the ET2, Denessen, Southern and listenes to other ones and even with all what @whart pointed out the mid and low bass range ( everything the same ) in the pívoted tonearms is better. Yes, LT tonearms has its own advantages. I sold my LT tonearms when I learned that MUSIC belongs ( not to the mid-range ) to the bass range and is better this FR as better not only the mid range frequency but your room/system quality performance levels.

I already said wooden/LT never again but this is me and to each his own.

 

Btw, I really like your ET panels and that JBL oldie I listened several times in those years and it was an unforgetable experience as the Altec of those times too.

 

R.

Dear @thr1961  : As you said a bnew audio item in our system changes the " picture ", we are prepared and expected that that can happens.

You own a very nice system and the problem with the Safir it's not if you like it or not ( as we said we are prepared for that . We are prepared for the new kind of " distortions/colorations " that we can't avoid. ) the real issue is those dynamic mass 60grs. under play for the cartridge it self and for the cartridge tracking due that the Safir in reality is an unipivoted design and no matters what from there comes unstability/chatering and the like that develops what we like on it but that tonearm sooner or latter will damages your Blue Lace with that " insane " EM and if you are prepared for that then go a head. At the end you already paid for it and is what you like.

 

I read about the Safir in other audio forums and read magasine reviews and only in this Agon forum we put the finger where it " painful ".

 

R.

@mijostyn : " Those are huge benefits, not that you can ignore other aspects of tonearm design. "

In the example measurements of the SAT tonearm its maximum tracking erro is a " huge " 1.42° but only at one surface place, normally the tracking error is around 0.5° to -0.5°

What I said is that pivoted LT has no " huge " differences or beats the normal pivoted tonearms and both normally beats any LT tonearm in the bass range performance more or less in the same bass range where digital always is superior to the LP experience/alternative..

R.

 

 

Dear @drbond : The issue is not really if the LT beats a pivoted one because that is only theory.

 

The @mijostyn " huge " differences are only in the " mind " does not exist in true. . This is only an example with the SAT 12" Löfgren B alignment where the average RMS distortion is 0.32% that no one can be aware off it but additional and through the LP grooved surfaCE THE TRACKING LEVEL DISTORTION AT EACH CONSECUTIVE GROOVE CHANGES ONLY 0.009%. Mijos, you, me or any one else can't detect it.

 

So, what are we really talking about? only theory and good intentions.

 

R.

Dear @fsonicsmith  : " That is my opinion and you are welcome to yours. "

Thank's, to each his own.

 

R.

Dear @drbond  : " it is an expensive hobby ".

Well it could be as expensive as is the knowledge level of us audiophiles. You made it expensive when choosed your TT with out took in count the additional arm boards price.

As you move up in the learning ladder as lesss expensive could be the hobby.

I think that still own the Atlas and the Koetsu and please let me ask wat's wrong or what dislike you with the 2 tonearms you mated it? 

 

You already have in mind the SAT and SAFIR that considered the first and second " best ":

 

" if we discuss the technical components of tonearms, does the supposed sonic success of the Kuzma Safir, with an effective mass of 60g, which is possibly only second to the SAT in sonic performance, demonstrate how little is known about how the tonearm actually works in reality? "

 

SAT is a good design and its main characteristic is its excellent quality levels in manufacture but it's not a tonearm that has any " news/discoveries " to the audiophile  tonearm experiences. The real seller of the SAT 9" was its review in Stereophile even at that very high  price.

The SAFIR success could be to audiophile " ignorance "  on what that dinamyc high mass does to any cartridge suspension and tracking.

Both tonearm were/are the new kids in the block.

 

Here you can read some objectiv measures on the Helix ( not to good ) and one of your tonearms:

HiFi-News-H2-Dohmann-Review.pdf (dohmannaudio.com)

 

Btw, normally the top cartridges are designer/manufacture voiced through normal pivot tonearms not underhung ones.

You ask for the VIV that taking in count my last statement seems to me does not to much sense to ask for.

If you can share the why's on your tonearms/cartrisges and this thread will put ligth rigth in the thread and maybe could you have better advise of what you are looking for.

 

R.

@mijostyn  : " A tonearm can not improve sound quality. it can only degrade it.   " 

 

I already posted something similar not only with tonearms but with other audio items and obviously that I'm in agree totally with you.Well the best that can do a perfect tonearm ( that does not exist. ) is not degrades the cartridge signal. All tonearms make a signal degradation no matters what.

So my take is to look for the tonearm that could makes the lower signal degradation. Degradation takes the form of added to the signal: colorations, distortions, noises, etc, etc.

That's why we need a real REFERENCE when we make comparisons, any kind of comparisons.

 

R.

 

R.

Dear @drbond  : The best anecdotal is the one you have and due that you ask for the VIV that's an inexpensive tonearm why don't pull the triguer to buy it and then compare against your Reed/Schroeder and latter on return to your thread to share your first hand experiences with.

Just an " idea " due that you ask I think 2-3 times about the VIV. Buy it ! ! ¡ ¡ ¡ 

 

R

Dear @whart  : " where I come out is that most people rely on anecdotals (or reviews?) based on cartridge and arm since as was pointed out early on, it’s pretty hard to evaluate different tone arms in isolation. "

 

The real problem ( other that each one of us own different rtoom/systems and different MUSIC/sounds priorities. ) is that the majority of audiophiles have very low objective knowledge levels on several analog audio world items. Then almost always we read through the post something like this: " well I like it " that's full of subjectivity statement where no one can argue about.

In other threads I mentioned that an audiophile should or must has an equilibrium between subjectivity and objectivity to achieve his main targets if any   ? ? ? Sometimes I ask me if this or that gentleman has those targets.

In the other side I agree with you that we can't evaluate different tonearms in isolation. In this case what we must do is tolearn or if already learned make an evaluation of all tonearm design/builded characteristics even before listen to it.

To make comparison between analog items we must have a REFERENCE against what we are comparing. Well, only my opinion.

R.

Dear @billstevenson  : You are rigth about magnesium that's a really good self damping material and exist a lot of evidence about.

I remember that several several years now I bougth the Pioneer PL-630 TT with integrated tonearm and the distributor man insist 2-3 times that the tonearm was made for magnesium ( in those years I don't care about because my very high ignorance lesvels. ) and latter on I learned from Audio Technica that all its after market headshells were builded with magnesium and latter on my Lustre GST-801 tonearm came with its original magnesium headshell and it's not at random that SME V is made all by magnesium.

 

R.

@billstevenson  : my advise this time to rewire not only your tonearms but any tonearm is using the silver Audio Note UK dedicated for tonearm rewiring or you can pay way more using the Audio Note Kondo ( Japan ).

Those are the best for the tonearm rewiring but if you have some " inferior " resolution link item in your system you will know because that cable does not permit to hide nothing at all.

 

R.

@mijostyn  : I'm sorry but you are wrong when posted:

 

" because of it's very low compliance.  " NO, it's not. It's around 14cu-15cu.

 

and you are wrong but I respect that you do nt cares about when psted:

 

" I can't imagine rewiring an arm would bother you that much "

it's crucial and way important to have the best internal wire in tonearm an that the re-wiring be made by professional people.

 

R.

@whart : " But I think there is a level of masochism here that used to appeal to me. "

That’s what mentioned inmy last post but I said it in different way and NO it’s not masochism.

 

Masochism is different, is " something " that we know is wrong and even that we do it. Example the Kuzma quad unipivot 14" that goes against the cartridge needs in more ways that shorter tonearms.

For me the only " nice " thing in a long EL tonearms it’s how it looks in the TT and I owned the longe tonearms as SAEC’s or FR and a little less longer like the AC or MS MAX. At the end I learned that " ideal " EM in pivot tonearm could be in the 10"/9" EL. where the tonearm bearing react faster to the cartridge tracking sudden groove modulatuions movements that in longer tonearms and not only this critical issue but the dynamic mass in the longer tonearms affects more the cartridge suspension than in a shorter EL tonearms an additional longer tonearms has more surfaces to develop any kind of resonances/distortions than a shorter tonearms but the look is what like the long tonearm owners no matter what. The shorter tonearms are way rigid than the longer ones.

 

SAT 9" vs 12" paper (swedishat.com)

I think that albert as alan know all those but even that they like it.

 

Btw and by coincidence Albert bougth it my Audiocraft AC4400 ( the long oneunipivot/dual ) with all its " choices ": counterweigths, different arm wands, etx and the Micro Seiki MAX 282 with all its arm wands (4 ) and everything and not for me but by the person who bougth from me. That MAX Gyroscopic bearing design is a beauty.

 

Alan prefers the VIV distortions to the other tonearms he owns. In this regards I’m dogmatic as @mijostyn : I can’t buy a tonearm where I know for sure that has higher measured distortions levels as the VIV that other normal pivot good designs. " is a sense ", truly scientific. Look, I'm not talking about the VIv using your experiences just to " hit " you NO I said that you today are and  now that you will be a trusty listener for me.

 

R.

Dear @mijostyn ​@lewm  : Always exist trade-offs/compromises even with pivoted straigth headshells.

Simplicity in pivot headshell overhang/offset is an " advantage " over LT pivoted designs or just LT because in any LT exist more resonances/distortion/vibrations tonearm sources and again trade-offs is the name of the game.

It's clear for me from my own tonearm/cartridge set up mistakes and from each VIV owner but especially what reported lewm that's a way trusty listener for me that those AS,offset angle and the like " compromises " are not extremely high in its developed level of distortions because we just are not aware of it due that our ears is a bad tool about THD/IMD kind of distortions. Even 10% of THD some times we are happy with, we are accustomed to live with higher distortions because we like it and are not so " agressive "  to detect it as a bad coloration.

I prefer simplicity in the tonearm design. The top vintage designs on almost all  units are " simple " and almost all have a very high quality excecution levels during manufacture and with almost " simple " build blend materials

 Btw, lewm the magn etic S is not something new, it's the way was designed the GST-801 where the VTF setting is a magnetic balanced too: great tonearm design even if not go exactly as mijos tonearm dogma.

R.

Dear @drbond: I forgot that I owned the Koetsu tonearm ( really good tonearm. ), the Lustre GST-801 that along the Micro Seiki ( I owned. ) MAX maybe are near the best ever and owned too Ikeda tonearms.

I owned too LT: Denessen, Southern and ET and experienced the ones in the Rockport, Goldmund and Walker top turntables.

Nothing like first hand experiences . Btw, in my virtual Agon system you can see at least 12-14 different tonearms mounted in 3 TTs ( 10 at the same time ) each one with top cartridges.

 

R.

Dear @billstevenson  : Sorry for your disappoint that time and what I gave you was not the silver Audio Note but the silver Zavfino ( I think   ? ? ? ) that I experienced too and that it does not likes everyone ( I like it over any cooper wires that I tested over time. ):

 

4Litz3Ag Pure Silver Tonearm Rewire - ZavfinoUSA

 

R.

 

@viridian  That 10cu was measured as all japanese cartridges at 100hz so at 10hz means over 15cu. Btw, I owned that Onyx and the Black and Rosewood too.

I think that my first MC was the Denon 103 with 5cu that means over 8cu and my tonearm in those times was a Pioneer in the PL 630 that was away to be a high mass tonearm.

 

Anyway, was and is part of what you and me learned and it's ok. No problem.

 

R.

@drbond  : No, with all respect to you in any audio subject no one has completee knowledge because it's imposible to have  that when each day we ( at least me. ) in many ways are learning 

I know what I posted and maybe something to add in this tonearm subject is that in audio but specially in analog we are " full " of trade-offs where each one of us room/system quality performance levels depends mainly which trade-offs we already choosed.

R.

Dear @whart  : Kuzma 14" 4Point that is an unipivot especial design obviously that what showed  was: "  the differences in cartridges ". I listened to both MSL instead AT and the Blue Lace and are really different performers. I can see that you like the stone Koetsu's , good. Only an appreciation: midrange depends of bass management and its bass harmonics development.

@viridian  Do you know which the Koetsu compliance levels? A medium EM tonearm range is around: 10grs-20gr. I owned vintage and today Koetsu that I do not need it a high EM tonearm because I always was in the 7hz-8hz to 10hz-12hz

resonance FR, that is the range that I like to run my cartridges in that issue.

R.

Dear @drbond : Even today there are only a few audiophiles with knowledge level on the " fine/critical points " in tonearms design, few know what to look for and that’s why not only in this forum but in other audio forums the tonearm comparisons or threads about tonearms are so low. Tonearm threads came/comes when appears a " new kid in the street " as happened with the SAT or in its times the Graham or the Schroder and the like.

I learned through the years and through first hand experiences some critical subjects of those tonearm fine points " I mentioned.

My first tonearms were unipivots in the 70’s by Grace, Audiocraft, Exel, AT, Stax the Moerch copycat by Highphonic and the Moerch too and even the Graham, Magnepan, Mayware.

After all those years I learned about the " brutal " unstability of unipivots that goes totally against the cartridge tracking those " Everest " recording grooves.

So I changed to gimbal Grace tonearms, Audio Technica, Denon, Technics, Satin, Fidelity Research,Dynavector, Mission The Mechanic, the Breuer copycat manufactured by Jelco: Sumiko The Arm, EMT, Ortofon, SME, the doiuble knife bearing SAEC’s, Victor, Sony.

Btw, owning over 150 MC/MM/MI top vintage and toiday top cartridges.

From those first hand experiences came/comes my own design but more important to have very clear where in the " hell " is or are the " secrets " where in reality there are no secrets at all.

I agree with @mijostyn and disagree with you in those statements:

 

" The difference in sound quality is so slight ..."

 

and yours:

 

" I would say that a tonearm is capable of making as significant a difference as a pre-amplifier, or phono stage can make. "

 

I think that you need to re-read my first post here where I refered to :

 

" the overall tonearm damping specially at the headshell where the issue is to " stop " the return/feedback resonances/vibrations that the cantilever will takes as fake modulations that the transducer works with. "

 

@viridian has a very good point about when posted:

 

" you cannot compare arms by setting them up with the same cartridges, because different cartridges put different amounts of energy back into the tonearm, at different frequencies, ..."

 

Now, if the tonearm design is a well damped one that tonearm ( everything the same ) differences against other well damped tonearms will be as mijos posted and if your first hand experiences did/does not showed/shows that it means that one of those 2 tonearms are already off or out to be a well damped design.

 

Your statement confirms our audiophile low knowledge level on tonearms other that the usual " I like it ":

 

" because very few even discuss tonearms in these threads. "

 

I think that in this tonearm topic all of us, inluding me, need to learn deeper to undestand the overall tonearm subject you brougth in this thread and in the OP you confirm it:

 

" new to the world of vinyl, listening seriously for probably only 2 years "

 

I learned in audio that does not exist money that can buy ( no matters what ) high knowledge levels in any audio subject: We have to experienced

 

Tonearm is a " slave " of the cartridge and any today design must be designed to fulfill the cartridge needs , not of any particular cartridge but any cartridge. There are several vintage tonearms that makes that as the Technics EPA-100 MK2 .

 

R.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear @drbond  : I owned/own and tested in my system with same cartridges around 25-30 diferent tonearms ( vintage/today ones but the SAT that I listened in other top systems I know ).

The @mijostyn  are theoretical desirable tonearm characteristics and that some tonearms do not mimic those " ideal " characteristics does not means are bad tonearms.

Today and top vintage tonearms all came/comes with first rate not loose bearings ( ABEC 9, at least or jewel type. Both with very low friction and all with unmovable rigidity. ) ).

Normally a medium EM tonearm runs excellent and can be mated with almost any MC/MM/MI cartridge but for my fist hand experiences the 2 main characteristics for the better in a tonearm are the internal quality wiring that must be made with silver wire and second the overall tonearm damping specially at the headshell where the ssue is to " stop " the return/feedback resonances/vibrations that the cantilever will takes as fake modulations that the transducer works with.

My two tonearms in use are self/build designs for me and a close friend and yes those main characteristics are well covered.

Today, tonearms are like the cartridge: does not exist bad tonearms except by unipivots and perhaps tonearms that use wood build material that we must avoid.

Other characteristics out of the tonearm it self is that when be mounted in the TT must be totally isolated from.

 

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.