I’m relatively new to the world of vinyl, listening seriously for probably only 2 years. Of course, many big picture items (e.g. turntable, phono stage, cartridges) are discussed extensively on this forum, but I haven’t seen much discussion comparing different tonearms. I would be interested to hear about different people’s experiences with different tonearms, mentioning the audible advantages and disadvantages of each tonearm, realizing that there is no perfect sound, although from what I read about others’ experiences, SAT tonearms may come closest, albeit at a very high price.
As long as you can adjust the effective mass, a dogmatic tonearm will run any cartridge at it's best. There is no magic to tonearm design only compromises. The pivoted offset arm makes one huge compromise for the sake of simplicity and that is it is not tangential. Most of us think that is a reasonable compromise to make given the state or the art in tangential tonearm design with three possible exceptions the REED 5A, 5T and the Schroder LT.
Today’s new and recognized vintage tonearms are all darn good.
We all love music, and do the best we can afford to increase the enjoyment.
Perhaps differences are measurable, that does not mean we are all able to hear the very subtle differences OP is asking about. I believe most of us could not hear any difference (and, if so, preferred or better?)
Certainly, the vast majority of us have not actually done side by side comparisons.
Thus, for me, it’s about Features (and appearance).
Fixed cartridge/removable headshell
is a clear separation, I always recommend removable headshells, and remind people, despite ‘fixed is better’ thinking, that many highly respected Tonearms came with/have removable headshells.
A quick ‘vintage tonearm’ search on hifishark, recently listed: Denon, Fidelity Research, Glanz, Grace, Ikeda, JVC, Micro Seiki, Ortofon, SAEC, SME’s, STAX, Thorens, ... and many new Tonearms, lets not forget all current beloved Technics .....
Wiring, I agree with rauliruegas, is important and ‘slightly more of us’ can hear a difference if truly concentrating, but: enough to rewire when a problem does not exist? I actually moved ‘down’ from silk covered 37 strand litz to whatever Steve at VAS uses for all his re-wiring jobs (unless customer requests …). I can’t hear any difference, but no direct comparison: broken, away, fixed, back. Much sturdier insulation that the silk covered litz it came with helps me sleep at night!
Azimuth: see below, Micro Seiki headshell collet allows Azimuth adjustment.
I buy headshells allowing azimuth adjustment, shims be gone
Arm Height Adjustment is very important, not just easier setting VTA initially, but when changing cartridges after initial one is worn, playing from a small collection of cartridges you may have, mounting a friend’s cartridge, switching from Stereo to Mono cartridge …
I have installed 3 arms with easy height adjustment
My Acos Lustre GST 801 on my JVC
My friend’s 2 Micro-Seiki 505s on his Luxman TT.
My friends Technics EPA-B500 Base with changeable arm wands
Curved wand, removable headshell
Anti-Skate is a must, easy?
Mounting of Tonearm, ease, solidity, future change, is why removable arm boards are important, not essential but ….
Dear @drbond: I forgot that I owned the Koetsu tonearm ( really good tonearm. ), the Lustre GST-801 that along the Micro Seiki ( I owned. ) MAX maybe are near the best ever and owned too Ikeda tonearms.
I owned too LT: Denessen, Southern and ET and experienced the ones in the Rockport, Goldmund and Walker top turntables.
Nothing like first hand experiences . Btw, in my virtual Agon system you can see at least 12-14 different tonearms mounted in 3 TTs ( 10 at the same time ) each one with top cartridges.
@drbondFirst my compliments on a great thread that hints at how difficult a pathway to truth can be in this crazy but addictive vinyl playback world….
I should have been more precise w my language…. I was referring to the Porter experiment reference earlier this thread….
I guess i somewhat fall into the mists of memory trap @lewmcites having worked many years at several high end shops while flunking in and out of rock bands and various degree granting institutions….. ( we fixed other dealers Rabco but sold nightmare but magic sounding Southers )…
I do have a two arm turntable project underway…. i could probably cobble together a quasi valid experiment…. by September and Pac Audio Fest…i’ve great ears coming to visit… serious contrubutors to this thread welcom, if you are around… check swords at the door
@rauliruegasI am down to…. just 4 tonearms…. somewhat reluctant to put that in print… in order of Lew “mist “ density : Dynavector DV-505, Infinity Black Widow, Ortofon RS 309 D and a Triplaner 7 mk2…. Cartridge addiction level requires a non disclosure agreement….
"The pivoted offset arm makes one huge compromise for the sake of simplicity and that is it is not tangential." I would add there is a price to pay for the headshell offset, and that is very high skating force, because of the headshell offset angle. And that has resulted in another compromise: poorly designed and implemented anti-skate devices (in an attempt to correct for the enhanced skating force) that are only partially or momentarily effective.
Mijostyn, You have often written that magnetic AS is superior to the string and weight type of AS device, because of reduced friction, I guess associated with the string passing over a support structure. But this has puzzled me, because if you adjust a string and weight for optimal effect, that process per se accounts for any frictional losses at the fulcum. With the string and weight, I would guess the AS force is fairly constant over the surface of the LP. Whereas, with a magnetic design, though I have never looked inside at how they are built, I would imagine that the AS force varies with the distance between the magnet(s) and the ferrous part that is attracted to the magnet, according to an equation where F is inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the two attractive elements. (It's complicated but the take home message is that the force would increase as the two elements of an AS corrector based on magnets approach each other.) I don't honestly know how magnetic AS is built but I have wondered about that.
@mijostyn , good & kind Sir....(*g* ...yes, a 'measured suk-up'.... :) ...) As many have found, to their perhaps unintended education re dogs....
Pick the breed carefully; esp. if 'tail>dog' is encountered - v - 'dog>tail'....
Long away & far ago: 1st Real TT = The AR, hold the X...likely a Shure cart of the time....one learned 'Jerry be nimble' (and not drunk or high).
Beyond the Redwood Curtain....Eureka! (literally), the only small hi-fi shop had a Rabco ST-4 on clearance in sealed box for 75$.
When it worked well, it was marvelous....despite itself. Arm on a rotating shaft, 3 wheels (main+2 small offset fore & aft of main), keep shaft & wheels Pristine. Daily. Easy-ish to do, pick arm off shaft, 're-cue' position
....and Gently push Cue....since it was on the 'plinth/base plate' of the entire device, sprung within the wood exterior base. Push too soft, no rsvp. Push just 'that much, too much' the entire TT would oscillate diagonally.....while the arm descended...
Got good at 'manual damping, stat'
Still have it. Needs belts, but don't we all.... 😏
I think a version of it was 'adopted' by H-K for their run at linear TTs'.
Stopped self from e-Bay'ng one....
@billstevenson....further and furtive adventures with My Life with the
SL-8, no E...know well, Noel. ;) Still have, still intent on 'getting even' with it.
Yes, I know there's some really nice 'tanges' available....like Sirens on the rocks, they beckon to this sailor.....who still has some reluctance of spending the $ on an audio-vice approaching that of an entry-level car.
If you can, it's your $s' and I'm not opposed. just share with us the nit-gritty-pic about it. *S*👍
@tomic601....Yes, like baby birds, too early out of the nest...
I like bird dogs, a light 20 I/O , the light crack, the sense of frozen momentive reality only recoil and spent powder can bring, the falling bird, the hand signal to my trusty girl, the wag of the pitch black otter tail with just a touch of grey as bird is delivered to hand…..
@viridianand That would not surprise this one....until I walked in, knowing The Beast that lurked within.....*eyes glazed, reddening & narrowed....nails begin to threaten....*, growled speech:
"....it's been on the shelf How Long....?" *evil snicker*
There is Zeitgeist to be considered, the UK was heading into the World of the MC, these were being heavily covered in the Mainstream Media, I myself was drawn in and even bought Demo' models from a particular HiFi Magazine.
There was a growing trend being generated toward MC's from the Market Leaders. Others competitors were no doubt in the wings sharing an interest in benefitting from the growing trend.
A Tonearm Producer did not have to express any great interest in a particular Cart' design, the changes were occurring very very quickly and they were riding on the wave of interest. The MC idea has stuck to this day. Most with an interest in vintl replays have the underlying idea a MC being selected is a step forward over the alternative designs.
Linn were commencing to supply a range of MC Cart's, with the the Ittock as a Tonearm.
Roksan and Audio Note and I am sure a few others also produced a MC in this period. Goldring came to the market a little later.
With this homebred interest, there was inevitably the extension to the Japanese, Scandinavian and other European Countries offerings.
The Cast Singular Arm Tube with a Formed Head Shell become the Tonearm of choice to exploit the encounters to be had, very rarely was an other type seen used in the media and at industry events.
The Rega Design sold like hot cakes, I believe I have seen 400 000 models were sold over not too many years.
SME, Linn, Roksan and a search will find others that during the 80's had produced new Tonearm Models with a Cast Singular Arm Tube or Singular Arm Tube and formed Headshell.
Later others come forward with the same design types using modern materials such as the WB- A.C.T One.
Statements like the Rega has been inferior are not entirely accurate, there is way too much info available to suggest differently.
My view on the design and its variants being much of a muchness stands, as this is the result of a broad range of experiences of these design types.
The Korf Blog has put the RB 300 through the wringer and it stands tall, interestingly the formed Headshell is seemingly the most obvious weakness when assessing measurements taken.
The facts of Linear Tracking are indisputable, however the advancing mechanism must perform as designed ....
The facts about less error with longer tonearm are indisputable, however what else about the arm?
My Linear Tonearm experiences (all good) are:
1. My Mitsubishi Vertical TT, LT-5V (belt drive). In my office system. MM Microline on aluminum
2. My friends Horizontal version of it: Mitsubishi LT-22 (quartz direct drive). MM advanced stylus on boron.
3. My Compact Programmable Technics SL-J33 (quartz direct drive).
I put a P mount MM cartridge with Advanced Stylus on aluminum cantilever.
Was in my shop system, until I needed a stackable TT pull out drawer to get my dual cassette deck back in. I got a Sony TT, FL-something ... put P Mount/1/2" adapter on, then MM with Advanced Stylus shape on boron.
The Technics is my ’loaner’ TT for friends with problems, like my Fisher 500c is my loaner tube receiver for friends in trouble. Gotta keep em with music while their problem is fixed.
Everyone is amazed how both loaned pieces sound, especially that little TT, it, and it’s arm do not look substantial at all, yet ....
...........................................
My favorite: 12.5" effective Blackbird, from NewArtVinyl in Russia, now $925 usd. Excellent communication, excellent protective packaging,
Dear @mijostyn@lewm : Always exist trade-offs/compromises even with pivoted straigth headshells.
Simplicity in pivot headshell overhang/offset is an " advantage " over LT pivoted designs or just LT because in any LT exist more resonances/distortion/vibrations tonearm sources and again trade-offs is the name of the game.
It's clear for me from my own tonearm/cartridge set up mistakes and from each VIV owner but especially what reported lewm that's a way trusty listener for me that those AS,offset angle and the like " compromises " are not extremely high in its developed level of distortions because we just are not aware of it due that our ears is a bad tool about THD/IMD kind of distortions. Even 10% of THD some times we are happy with, we are accustomed to live with higher distortions because we like it and are not so " agressive " to detect it as a bad coloration.
I prefer simplicity in the tonearm design. The top vintage designs on almost all units are " simple " and almost all have a very high quality excecution levels during manufacture and with almost " simple " build blend materials
Btw, lewm the magn etic S is not something new, it's the way was designed the GST-801 where the VTF setting is a magnetic balanced too: great tonearm design even if not go exactly as mijos tonearm dogma.
My question is how do the magnetic AS devices in various tonearms work? Are they all the same, where obviously there is a magnet and either a second magnet oriented so that opposite poles attract or a piece of iron, such that the two fixed points attract each other, or is it more complicated? If magnetic AS is simply based on magnetic attraction, then the force grows stronger as the two points get closer together or conversely weaker as the two fixed elements separate.
I guess neither you nor I want to revisit the "discussion" about the Viv tonearm, but I have to wonder why you (and others like Mijo) are so sure that the enhanced tracking angle error of an underhung tonearm with no offset is so much worse in terms of "distortion" than the enhanced skating force of an overhung pivoted tonearm with offset. It’s a cop out to say that those who like the Viv are merely unable to hear distortion or that they "like" it. Funnily enough, I would say that the main character of the Viv is a sense that there is LESS distortion, not more.
@whart : " But I think there is a level of masochism here that used to appeal to me. "
That’s what mentioned inmy last post but I said it in different way and NO it’s not masochism.
Masochism is different, is " something " that we know is wrong and even that we do it. Example the Kuzma quad unipivot 14" that goes against the cartridge needs in more ways that shorter tonearms.
For me the only " nice " thing in a long EL tonearms it’s how it looks in the TT and I owned the longe tonearms as SAEC’s or FR and a little less longer like the AC or MS MAX. At the end I learned that " ideal " EM in pivot tonearm could be in the 10"/9" EL. where the tonearm bearing react faster to the cartridge tracking sudden groove modulatuions movements that in longer tonearms and not only this critical issue but the dynamic mass in the longer tonearms affects more the cartridge suspension than in a shorter EL tonearms an additional longer tonearms has more surfaces to develop any kind of resonances/distortions than a shorter tonearms but the look is what like the long tonearm owners no matter what. The shorter tonearms are way rigid than the longer ones.
I think that albert as alan know all those but even that they like it.
Btw and by coincidence Albert bougth it my Audiocraft AC4400 ( the long oneunipivot/dual ) with all its " choices ": counterweigths, different arm wands, etx and the Micro Seiki MAX 282 with all its arm wands (4 ) and everything and not for me but by the person who bougth from me. That MAX Gyroscopic bearing design is a beauty.
Alan prefers the VIV distortions to the other tonearms he owns. In this regards I’m dogmatic as @mijostyn: I can’t buy a tonearm where I know for sure that has higher measured distortions levels as the VIV that other normal pivot good designs. " is a sense ", truly scientific. Look, I'm not talking about the VIv using your experiences just to " hit " you NO I said that you today are and now that you will be a trusty listener for me.
@mijostyn- I won’t argue about sound engineering principles and do not pretend to be an engineer. I do remember people using arms like the Keith Monks with the old Decca cartridges back in the day. I guess I come back to the OP’s question, which was how to make an assessment of different tonearms. I gave a couple examples, including my use of the Koetsu(s) in a linear arm that does not have high vertical mass (although substantial horizontal mass which is, in theory, relieved by the air bearing). I do not know why the combination of Koetsu and Airline works so well but that’s been my hands-on (ears-on) experience. Ditto my remarks about the comparison of cartridges in otherwise identical arms on the same table. (I suppose @tomic601alluded to this when he talked about possible variations in build rather than design, but I trust Kuzma enough to get that right).
I have a friend in audio circles who stands by the old SME 3012r as a great all-arounder, and knew plenty of people who, over the years, sought out higher mass arms of old.
@rauliruegas- my comment about "masochism" related to the additional complexities of running an air-bearing arm; the arm itself has been faultless and in service since around 2006. Dealing with the air compressor (I usually use the same Sil-Aire that Franc supplies), running air hoses through walls and dealing with oil based compressor motors just adds more "stuff" you have to deal with as a user. (I’m currently using a different type of compressor and it’s a little less of a headache).
*******
I have no last word on the subject-- I guess where I come out is that most people rely on anecdotals (or reviews?) based on cartridge and arm since as was pointed out early on, it’s pretty hard to evaluate different tone arms in isolation.
Bill
PS: I forgot to include one amusing anecdote- back in the early ’70s- one of the gang I knew modified a Rabco with a Vestigal arm tube. I have no memory of what it sounded like, since I think he was constantly adjusting it. Total nightmare.
I am pinching myself as I ask this question. My HW40 arm needs to be rewired. I was going to take it to VPI and let them do it, but should I reconsider? You are right that the wire I installed in my GAE was Zavfino. I do not want to do that again.
Lewm and others who might be interested,
When I bought an SL1200GAE it was to replace an SL1200 that had been fully modded by KAB. While I had both TTs on my bench I conducted a fairly thorough comparison of the two, both in terms of physical characteristics and measurements using a variety of cartridges, a Shure Era IV test record and an O-scope. Referring to my notes: The two tone arms were dimensionally identical, weighed the same except I had to first remove the KAB cotton wadding used as damping material, The material of the arms was aluminum (SL1200) vs. magnesium (GAE). I was not able to discern any difference in the anti-skating settings. Technics claimed the bearings to be superior in the GAE, but both seemed similar and I had no way to measure a difference. Comparing the two arms set up with the same cartridges, however, the GAE consistently tracked 0.1 or better less VTF for the same tracking results as seen and heard during tracking tests. In listening tests, the GAE had a slight, but consistent subjective superiority to my ear. Cartridges used: Shure V-15Vmr, Ortofon 2M Black, Ortofon Per Winfeld. I could hear no cogging, there was no difference in speed stability as measured using a Roadrunner tachometer. I concluded that the sound superiority of the GAE was due primarily to the arm and the most obviously difference in the two arms was the material of construction. In any event arms matter.
I have been instrumental in encouraging a design to be produced for a removable headshell, that has the intent to surpass a Typical SME Bayonet connection.
The design selected is a little more involved when a Cart' remounted to a Headshell is to be exchanged.
If mounting a Cart' on an alternate material or weight headshell, this process will be quite similar to the previous design.
The New Design is based on two interfaces both being interference fit, which as a end result creates a coupling that is substantially more rigid.
Both the New and the old have been given a lot of time to be A/B compared, using same TT >TA >Cart'>System.
The outcome has proved to be one where the new design is as a end performance, one that is more than the sum of Parts used.
My assessment on the day, but realistically fair, when a Styli / Cantilever is concerned, has been that the typical design, has headshell functioning as a flag on the end of a flagpole.
I am a advocate of removable headshell, I now know the removable headshell design worthwhile aspiring to.
During the design stages for a new design tonearm, I have been party to. I was quite encouraging in having a removable headshell design to be adopted that is quite different from the typical seen versions.
This not so commonly seen design for a removable headshell is now realised and in my recommended material.
@whart...creating a Vestico! *kazoo fanfare* 😏 *L*
There's other tales of woe & whoa in moddin' SLs'....
Anytime one ventures into the arm/carriage of them, you encounter the 'switch' that triggers the arm movement. Although calling 3 hair-fine stiff wires a 'switch' is being kind, since it's basically a naked miniscule SPDT reduced to literally a 'hair trigger' that ought to have been left in a car bomb.
Been there...(no, not a bomb...this post wouldn't exist) ... have some options in mind when I must abandon sense and resort to mere 'high' hopes....
@lewm The problem with the weight on a string AS mechanisms is that records are hardly ever perfectly concentric. Now the cantilever has to over come the stiction. I recall the old days with a V15 in an SME 3009. I use to watch the cantilever wag back and forth on eccentric records. If I defeated the AS the wagging stopped and the cantilever deflected towards the right channel. You can't win. You envision magnetic AS correctly. In the case of the Schroder CB one magnet is fixed to the horizontal bearing and the other on an adjusting screw. The neodymium magnets have opposite poles facing each other so they attract. When you study the geometry of the situation, the distance at the pivot really does not change that much as the tonearm travels over the record's playing surface. If the AS is set at the center of the playing surface, so the variation to either side is only a few mm at the magnets, well within neodymium range. Yes, there is a slight variation across the record, the AS force dropping as the arm travels across the record. AS is a ball park situation and the CB's AS stays well within the ball park and I have measured this with the Wallyskater which can be adjusted to measure the AS anywhere on the record. It changes less than 1%, probably less than the pivoted style AS mechanisms like the Kuzma.
@tomic601my wife tells me I'm 1000% dog. I started painting my nose black back in 95 to get more attention. Growing a tail helped.
@asvjerrySee, that tonearm has warped your brain. I had that H-K turntable and it warped mine. Tail wagging the dog. There you go, best use of a Rabco, as a car bomb.
@billstevensonI can't imagine rewiring an arm would bother you that much.
@whartThe Koetsu works reasonably well in the Airline because of it's very low compliance. The air bearing does absolutely nothing to alleviate the high horizontal mass, that would be magic.
Frank Kuzma does one of everything to suite all comers or just to say he can. His unipivots are just as bad or as good as anyone's and the same holds true of the Airline. He can not even make his mind up on what kind of turntable to build, so he builds one of everything.
@pindacRemovable head shells are for lazy people. It adds another set of contacts which is never a good idea. I like the Kuzma/Schroder solution which is a removable cartridge carrier without another set of contacts.
I love how your physics is understood so as to justify your choices of components. But we all do that to some extent. There is a valid rationale for high horizontal effective mass which I’ve mentioned elsewhere and which I don’t feel like typing out yet again. If you have an LP that is so off center that it sets the AS weight into pendulum motion, then that LP needs to be re-centered with a reamer or trashed. IIRC, skating is worst at the outer and inner grooves, just bc where the magnetic mechanism would be least consistent.
@mijostynsaid "The air bearing does absolutely nothing to alleviate the high horizontal mass, that would be magic. "
I understand- I guess, from my crude understanding of mechanics/physics, this is the difference between "weight" and "mass,"- that is, while the air bearing, properly designed to account for the load (of the entire arm "carriage") will relieve the weight or friction between the arm tube and the travel rail, the mass of the carriage remains the same.
@billstevenson : my advise this time to rewire not only your tonearms but any tonearm is using the silver Audio Note UK dedicated for tonearm rewiring or you can pay way more using the Audio Note Kondo ( Japan ).
Those are the best for the tonearm rewiring but if you have some " inferior " resolution link item in your system you will know because that cable does not permit to hide nothing at all.
@mijostynThr design I am referring to is a Tonearm that has also been converted to a Continuous Wire TA.
I am not instrumental in the decision made to use Continuous Wire, but very much influential in the decision made to use PC Triple C Wire.
The only other Models of TA using PC Triple C is a SAEC Arm costing approx $15K, and the returned models to the TA Designer/Builder as a Signal Path Upgrade, which has proved to be a substantial upgrade to the previous wire used.
It seems like much of the conversation has moved towards the technical aspect of tonearms, as opposed to experiential comparison, which I suppose very few have. However, if we discuss the technical components of tonearms, does the supposed sonic success of the Kuzma Safir, with an effective mass of 60g, which is possibly only second to the SAT in sonic performance, demonstrate how little is known about how the tonearm actually works in reality?
The conversation only really matters, in relation to what one can afford to purchase.
A SAT TA, is not a TA that many would not be interested in considering, or for the multiples even know exists.
Touting the math is one thing, user experience is much more, there are converts to the VIV TA that do the math and also do the experiencing, who have been taken aback by the outcome of becoming less prejudiced.
As stated in my own case, I was introduced to something not quite conventional and the impact on myself was profound, I immediately commenced on a plan to change a very established way of thinking, of which for a few years know is fully realised.
…..ah the Safir….. a thing of beauty and technical triumph…but.
Ive some significant but never sufficient seat time listening to it w Ortofon Verismo on a Dohmann w integral Minus K…. vs ( in same remainder of system / room in same session… ) a Kuzma 4 pt w vta tower, Kuzma CAR-50 and the $10 k ish Kuzma deck also on a discrete minus K.
Toss up…… but i went home wondering what a CAR-50 on the Safir would do… And ordered a CAR 40 which i love…
@pindac - you make excellent points… i myself have ( obviously ) a hodgepodge of arms… This Spring the Triplaner which i acquired used will go back to Tri for a checkup and probable upgrade, but it’s not in the same $ latitudes as the SAT.
The experiment i envision to TRY to address this thread ? will most likely take two possible forms ; trying the same cartridge in two different headshell arms. Yes the setup geometry will change, so delta variables are introduced. Anyway…it will be fun. Ortofon vs Dynavector using the CAR -40 or a Koetsu Urushi - Black
Yes… i know about the geometry issues, hence the alternative is Triplaner vs Ortofon ( yes i know about the advised non Japanese geometry and have ordered to supporting protractor… from Scottland )
I’m doing this experiment all the time. I’ve mentioned I have now 6 tonearms up and running in 5 TTs, three feeding Sound Lab 845PX speakers, and the other 2 feeding Beveridge 2SWs. The tonearms are Triplanar, Reed 2A, Dyna DV505, FR64S (silver wire version), Kenwood L07J (comes with L07D TT), and Viv. Where interchangeable, headshell makes a big difference. I’ve got a slew of cartridges of all types to play with. All TTs are optimized electronically and re-plinthed. For example of my results, my Koetsu Urushi sounds by far best in the FR64S with an Ortofon LH9000 headshell.
How does the Viv compare to the Reed and the Tri-planar? Have you been able to play those on the same TT with the same cartridge enough to formulate an opinion?
Dear @billstevenson : You are rigth about magnesium that's a really good self damping material and exist a lot of evidence about.
I remember that several several years now I bougth the Pioneer PL-630 TT with integrated tonearm and the distributor man insist 2-3 times that the tonearm was made for magnesium ( in those years I don't care about because my very high ignorance lesvels. ) and latter on I learned from Audio Technica that all its after market headshells were builded with magnesium and latter on my Lustre GST-801 tonearm came with its original magnesium headshell and it's not at random that SME V is made all by magnesium.
Dear @whart : " where I come out is that most people rely on anecdotals (or reviews?) based on cartridge and arm since as was pointed out early on, it’s pretty hard to evaluate different tone arms in isolation. "
The real problem ( other that each one of us own different rtoom/systems and different MUSIC/sounds priorities. ) is that the majority of audiophiles have very low objective knowledge levels on several analog audio world items. Then almost always we read through the post something like this: " well I like it " that's full of subjectivity statement where no one can argue about.
In other threads I mentioned that an audiophile should or must has an equilibrium between subjectivity and objectivity to achieve his main targets if any ? ? ? Sometimes I ask me if this or that gentleman has those targets.
In the other side I agree with you that we can't evaluate different tonearms in isolation. In this case what we must do is tolearn or if already learned make an evaluation of all tonearm design/builded characteristics even before listen to it.
To make comparison between analog items we must have a REFERENCE against what we are comparing. Well, only my opinion.
Dear @drbond : The best anecdotal is the one you have and due that you ask for the VIV that's an inexpensive tonearm why don't pull the triguer to buy it and then compare against your Reed/Schroeder and latter on return to your thread to share your first hand experiences with.
Just an " idea " due that you ask I think 2-3 times about the VIV. Buy it ! ! ¡ ¡ ¡
@tomic601I encourage you and any body else to have the comparison experience.
It is a practice I have participated in many years as a sole participant and for many more years and on more occasions than I can count and have travelled many miles to meet with others who encourage comparing devices dedicated to be used in a audio set up.
Comparisons for me really work when encountered as a Social Activity, there is something quite satisfying in being a member of a group carrying out assessments.
A Wise Person once left a legacy statement as follows:
"Comparison is the thief of enjoyment"
I fully see the two edged cut this statement wields, and am always careful to discover the fun element of the participation, it is possibly this character being expressed that keeps the invites coming to be present at more to come.
@mijostyn : " A tonearm can not improve sound quality. it can only degrade it. "
I already posted something similar not only with tonearms but with other audio items and obviously that I'm in agree totally with you.Well the best that can do a perfect tonearm ( that does not exist. ) is not degrades the cartridge signal. All tonearms make a signal degradation no matters what.
So my take is to look for the tonearm that could makes the lower signal degradation. Degradation takes the form of added to the signal: colorations, distortions, noises, etc, etc.
That's why we need a real REFERENCE when we make comparisons, any kind of comparisons.
I myself am a advocate of Magnesium and have Headshells between 8 - 10 Grammes produced from it.
I also have the same arm tube as the SME V on my SME IV, I bought this under the guise the Magnesium Cast Arm Tube will have been the better material than the Rega Cast Aluminium Arm Tube of which SME were copying.
Magnesium does have properties that are stronger and stiffer than Aluminium, but for myself I can not say that it is an audible property.
On a Budget Aluminium wins as it does not need to be coated to prevent corrosion where as Magnesium corrodes and needs a anti corrosive coating.
I've handled many many Magnesium Headshells and sold on plenty as the corrosion is lifting of the coating. I keep the pristine ones for myself and gifts to friends.
Interesting as well, last time checked anyways, how thpe Korf Blog has never tested a Magnesium Headshell against the Ceramic Design so well supported ?
@mijostyn : " A tonearm can not improve sound quality. it can only degrade it. "
I already posted something similar not only with tonearms but with other audio items and obviously that I'm in agree totally with you.Well the best that can do a perfect tonearm ( that does not exist. ) is not degrades the cartridge signal. All tonearms make a signal degradation no matters what.
So my take is to look for the tonearm that could makes the lower signal degradation. Degradation takes the form of added to the signal: colorations, distortions, noises, etc, etc.
That's why we need a real REFERENCE when we make comparisons, any kind of comparisons.
This is bullcrap. That is my opinion and you are welcome to yours.
As I said before, we don't listen in laboratories. You folks need to get out your own heads and cease thinking (pun) that you can intuit your way to the truth.
Raul, for what seems like a thousand years you have sung your torch song that it is "the musics [sic] and not the distortions [sic]" and, well, how about moving on already to something more useful than a banality that happens to be both meaningless and yet paradoxically wrong.
What if, using my previous analogy, we were to believe that a speaker enclosure can never compliment the qualities of the drivers mounted to it and instead can only degrade them? What if we were told to believe that a violin's soundboard can never compliment the sound of the strings and can only degrade them?
Give it a break already. And stop preaching from on-high.
I really enjoy testing and comparing different equipment. It is an expensive hobby, but yields intellectual satisfaction of what sound can sound like. I would be interested in testing and comparing many tonearms; however, the main drawback with my system is that I have to buy a new armboard for each tonearm, and the armboards for the Dohmann are rather expensive ($3,000), which adds a major cost to simply switching out tonearms every month. . .however, reading about the Viv Rigid tonearm, it appears to be freestanding, but it would have to stand on the minus K platform of the Helix to be a fair comparison; however, if someone has one that they want to send me to try out, I'll be glad to try one out and render my opinion.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
