Recently, I have heard about some Class D amps that may be close to the best there is regardless of class. Certainly, this technology has been in development for decades. The main issue has always been the switching power supply. In this regard, I have taken notice of AGD. They have created a whole new power supply that “switches” at a frequency 100 times the normal silicon based MOSFET. The designer uses a gallium nitride based PS. Interesting, it is enclosed in the KT88 glass envelope that sits on top of his amps. I am aware of two more pricey amps that seem to be also at the top- the Solution and the Merrill. There must be others that compete for the title. After my thread, “Is there a SS amp that can satisfy a SET guy?”, I am still on the quest. Don’t want to spend $50K!
From my own experience and several other A'goners, some Class D amps take a good 2 days of being on before they sound their best. If you listen to them in a store or turn them off while you are away keep this in mind. In my case I use IcePower 250 ASP amps which I know have this issue. You don't have to play music, just keep them on.
class d is a technology... a designer can use and harness a technology towards a certain end, the designer can make a class d amp sound dull, bright, lively, smooth, sizzly or bottom heavy -- just like designers of class a or ab solid state amps have voiced their amps to their tastes for years and years
each technology has its strengths and challenges (eg, tube amps’ bass, ss a/b amps’ imaging depth, class d’s decay and harmonics) which set some broad sonic parameters, but there is wide wide latitude in the sound of the finished product, and a good designer can overcome the shortcomings
specificity matters here for class d units, like anything else...
-- w4s st series is voiced warm and smooth as silk, maybe even a little dull, by ej sarmento -- devialet amps have flat extended frequency response up top, with a bit of spotlit richness in the midrange and mid bass -- nad’s amps are leaner and sounds quick and boppy but not much body nor saturation -- agd (just got a pair of audions, now listening) is extended, clear, yet has body and weight where needed - they are truly excellent btw, won’t belabour that here
just like a parasound sounds different from a hegel from a belles from a naim from a mccormack from a pass
just because you tried one class d amp recently or some time ago and came away with an impression does not qualify you to make blanket pronouncements on all of them out there
While the 1.5m SE 6 was much better, I went for the Pangea XL. It sounded better than the 1.5 , but I then saw the XL was only $150, so I returned the 1.5m SE. It took about 50 hours to break in. WOW. By far the best $150 Ive spent in many years
I am enjoying a similar revelation (hearing real people and real instruments), though I didn’t spend big money for my EVS1200 (~$2300) and though I have raved about it for the past almost 2 years, I am experiencing it with a whole new level of appreciation. Ditto my Audio Alchemy DDP-1 dac/pre + PS 5 outboard power supply
I wish I could properly thank the person who headed me in the right direction to move on from my optical cable to Coax, but, alas, I don’t recall who :(. Being frugal, I started with Pangea Premier SE 1.0m (on sale at Audio Advisor for $49.95). When I mentioned it in my thread I was told minimum 1.5m is desired. Well from other companies each 0.5m length increase is $50+++, whereas the Pangea is only $10 more, so it’s on its way. It should arrive by Saturday which will give me ample time to break in the 1.0m, though it sounds amazing after just one hour of play
EVS is no longer making the EVS 1200, but has other class D amp tweaks that many can afford
I'm doing class D over here and it doesn't sound harsh to me. Everything is so system dependent. In some ways, my previous First Watt F7 was slightly brighter than my current Wyred 750 LE.
Not sure what speakers the chap auditioned with M33. Must have been the cause of his experience.
Best value module I've tried was the 3e Audio 3255 based one. Great thing with that module is the ability to roll op amps. Build a killer poweramp for 200 quid
I don't like leaving my amps on 24/7, does anyone do that when you're out of town?
Don't listen to them if they do🤦♂️.
Just turn on your amps a 1/2hr before listening. It's also good for the capacitators conditioning, to turn the amps off as they drain and can recharge again from empty.
I borrowed a friends class D with about 300 hours on it and didn't like it. Harsh is the best word. I don't like leaving my amps on 24/7, does anyone do that when you're out of town?
Installed a new Lyra Atlas SL today. The performances jump out of the groves! The AGD amps stay right up with the Lyra. What was already amazing, is now killer! Turning off the rig was incredibly difficult. I am not interested in any other amp.
I had NAD M22 V2 which was built based on the Hypex Class D NC400s. My opinion is Class D is powerful, detail. But you will need a warm/musical/tube preamp to tame the high (easily bright on many tracks) and lossen the low (can be too tight and fast). Purifi is said to fix the glare on upper midrange/high which Hypex Ncore has. If it is true, I think the Purifi is where the affordable Class D era begins. The next generation of Class D is worth waiting for. The gears I used to own and compared with the NAD M22V2 are: Amp: Mcintosh MA6700, Mcintosh MC462, Accuphase E480, Rogue Magnum 3, Pass Labs XA25, Marantz 6006, Denon 1520AE. Pre Anthem STR Preamp, Moon 390, Topping DX7 Pro/E30 (as both DAC and Pre). DAC: Chord Qutest, Schiit Yggy Analog 2 Speakers: Revel M16, Revel Salon2, Tannoy Kensington GR, Klipsch Heresy 4, Monitor Audio Bronze 2, Jamo D590
A very good friend of mine has the mid sized Magnapans. He tried the pair of M500 MkII Monoblocks and said that they had plenty of power and sound great. However he pulled them, installed two Shiit Vidars ran mono to replace the dragons. He told me the Vidars were not as powerful, with less dynamic slam, but had more detail, the highs on the Vidar were much smoother, velvet on voices. Electric guitar did not bite like the Dragons. The Vidars on the lows were deeper, clear. He has the Freya as the preamp. He did try a crown 2502 and said it rocked the place. Huge power and control. It grabbed the Maggied and they said, yes sir! He said the dragons over all sounded a bit better, more detail.
Pricing for this stuff is all over the map. So, what else is new? 10, 20, 30k for "all that and (literally) a box of chips?" "Oh, but you are obviously a neanderthal and not capable of comprehending what goes into development."
OK. So a $5k class D amp in this New World will be a "compromise"?
Sorry, I have a pair of Magnepan 3.7i running with a Marantz amp. It just makes we want to listen to music. I paid $2,500 for the amp. Obviously, I have the dumb and an unrefined aural palate.
I haven’t been listening for 5 decades... just 2; however, I do know that $38k for an amplifier is STOOPID. I guess half that is a deal, and ignorance is Bliss.
@mglik
AGD are the ONLY amps in 50 years in that grab me in such a way that is near impossible to not listen. Now listening, it is very difficult to write these few words.
The AGD Audions did and continue to do the same for me.
AGD are the ONLY amps in 50 years in that grab me in such a way that is near impossible to not listen. Now listening, it is very difficult to write these few words.
@coltrane1 I've explained earlier on this thread why class D has opportunity to do better than class A- and that has to do with how feedback is applied. My comments on this are near the bottom of the first page of this thread. Keep in mind my company has been making class A amplifiers for the last 46 years.
FYI Premium offers a 15 day money back. If returned customer is responsible for shipping both ways. Since they are small and light weight, that should be a no brainer hth
I'm still confused. Legacy makes a whole family of these amps, from the Legacy i-V1 through to the i-V8, offering one through eight channels of amplification. Can the i-V4 be bridged to 2-channel output? Or?
Hi twoleftears, happy to help. The product you would be looking for is the iV2- it is a dual mono amplifier, that puts out 1,000 watts/channel at 4 ohms.
The iV4 is a four channel amp, and puts out 660 watts/channel at 4 ohms.
iV4 can be ordered as the iV4 ULTRA which dedicates a module for each channel. It is capable of 1,000 watts/channel at 4 ohms.
We won't be exhibiting at THE Show 2021 in a few weeks, but we look forward to continuing our attendance at future THE Shows. Legacy will be at AXPONA in the fall. Anyone who would like to visit us in CA, is welcome to at Destination HiFi, where we have the iV amplifier as well as the entire Legacy speaker line on display.
The IceEdge modules are warrantied to an OEM as long as there are no mods to the modules (which is one reason most do not mod them), If a module goes bad then Icepower will replace any defective module for up to two years. The modules are less than $300 each in quantity. IceEdge modules are extremely reliable.
All modules that come from Ice, Hypex, Anaview, Purifi, Pascal, Powersoft, IR, etc. are not designed for sonics. The closest would be Purifi but I need to do mods to it to bring it up to serious levels. We need designs by those that are super tweaky and are using the latest technology. We now have GaN output transistors which seem to make a sonic improvement.....it is, however, just one factor among the infinite things in an amp that make better sound (in other words, all amps with GaN transistors will sound different from each other). This is why this is an ever evolving game. Some new from the ground up GaN developed amps are:
1. Premium-Audio 200 watt stereo for $699 2. Orchard Audo 150 watt mono blocks for $1500 and soon to be released 250 watt a channel amp...$2500? 3. LSA 200 watt a channel $3000.....says on the website to be released next month. 4. Mytek Manhattan dual mono 200 watt....$6K coming out this summer 5. Mytek Empire 500 watt mono amps....coming out in July $20K the pair 6. Java Hifi integrated amp ....starts at $8900 7. 85 watt mono AGD Audion Amps....$7500 the pair 8. Merrill Audio amps $16K-$38K 9. AGD Gran Vivachi mono blocks....$18k. 10. Technics integrated....10K and older stereo amp...$18k 11. Atmasphere stereo amp.....$5k?...later this year.
This is just the beginning. Lots of cool stuff coming down the road.
Nice to hear from a fellow EVS1200 owner. In my experience it sounds significantly better without the Kubes and the top OFF. I bought a cheap AC filter to keep dust out. I also have Machina Dynamica springs for isolation. Also, PCs can make a big difference
"Using a mono module per channel is exactly the same thing as using one channel of a stereo module.....no difference. I know, I did both....same sound. My amps were dual mono using mono IceEdge".
Happy to say, for once I agree with Ric.
I too had dual mono 1200AS2 modules. Using two modules (1 channel from each) was exactly the same as using both channels from a single module. I know Mike from Mivera also had the same conclusion.
And here’s the dumb thing about the Legacy Audio offering. If you have 8 ohm speakers, they both state 610 watts for the regular vs ultra series. Rather than using the 1200AS1 (slightly cheaper), it’s obvious they’re buying the 1200AS2 in bulk to simplify things and get better pricing. IMO, their total cost on the 8 channel (4 modules) is probably < $1800 all in, and their selling them for $8k - ouch!
It would be interesting to see what they charge for servicing. These modules are built as disposable in the event of a failure. Basically, fixing these amps are a fixed cost to Legacy since they would just replace the entire module.
I own multiple Class D ice amps the best IMO being the NewClear NCL1000. They sound fantastic! They are clean and unbiased. I want instruments to sound how they do in real life not warmed over or made up for the big dance. I would put these amps up against anything in their power class. Don’t get me wrong I have heard A & AB amps I like better but I’m not spending $25k or more to get them. As some have mentioned, a lot has to do with what else is in your system. If everything in the chain is bright, class D might not sound great but if matched with the correct pre amp, speakers they can sound absolutely amazing. On the opposite end, I don’t enjoy listening to music when we have tubes throughout. Best part is we can all be right... there are as many manufacturers and component options to play with as there are ears in this thread. I’m sure there is a combination that works for everyone. So listen to as much as you can and keep your mind as open as you think your ears are.
Class D will live along side Class A, A/B and tube amps it will not replace any of these. I personally like the ability to choose, with class D approaching the performance level of class A and SET amps we all should be happy.
Just want to say I have one of Ric’s evs 1200 amps. It does indeed sound wonderful. It pushed a Bryston 14b and a pass lab 150.5 amp to back up duty. I have switched to all class d amps for my main 5.1 system. Really enjoy the non boat anchor weight and the cool running aspect of class d. And did I tell u, it sounds better than my class a/b amps to me. I’m no technical genius but I sure don’t mind my class d amps if I have to move a amp. And my electric bill went down. Bonus.
zephyr24069 Thanks. I live not far from Legacy and i plan on hearing their amps soon. I own the AGD's and i'am totally happy and not shopping, Legacy are close and i like to hear what's out there.
Oh gosh, I thought we were done with this.....again, here are 3 pictures of the insides of the i-v4 ultra......and what I see are 4 stock IceEdge modules. Does yours look different than these?
Said in good fun....
Must be a trick question :-) as that's my system so of course the insides of the amp and the boards top to bottom, look as they do in person to me as the pictures you highlighted since I took those pictures in the first place.
Doug was saying he has more technical details and I've been told by Legacy this is not stock modules in a box so since I'm just a customer I'm bowing out and letting all you industry vendors, service providers and reviewers talk through this. I'd be interested in the conclusion but frankly I'm damned happy with my amp and was passing on what I see and what I've been told when asking questions.
"Regarding class D i would like to see manufactures building their own class D modules. We need more effort, these modules IceEdge ect. no matter what amp they are inserted in all have a familiar signature even though they are much better today that signature goes back a decade. Different name on the faceplate but same internals same sound, good but not great.
Several manufactures have designed their own class D modules and what i have heard AGD they are a major leap in SQ."
Great post @rh67 I've heard AGD-based amps in 2019 in Munich (only 1 manufacturer) and thought they were damned impressive.
Regarding class D i would like to see manufactures building their own class D modules. We need more effort, these modules IceEdge ect. no matter what amp they are inserted in all have a familiar signature even though they are much better today that signature goes back a decade. Different name on the faceplate but same internals same sound, good but not great.
Several manufactures have designed their own class D modules and what i have heard AGD they are a major leap in SQ.
Competition is the only way to really advance class D to maybe go head to head with class A.
Oh gosh, I thought we were done with this.....again, here are 3 pictures of the insides of the i-v4 ultra......and what I see are 4 stock IceEdge modules. Does yours look different than these?
From the detail of your posts I’m sure your modified ICedge boards and designs are of great quality in how the service you offer modifies the stock offering and how they sound. I’d like to hear them some day and that would be a great compare as well to do with what’s in front of me in this particular variation.
I’m a customer of Legacy as previously noted, have nothing to gain from these posts to be clear. I don’t make or sell products and have nothing on offer to others in this hobby. When I had the top off of my amp, I compared the boards against the stock boards available to anyone to buy and they are clearly (to me) not exactly the stock boards or what is pictured on other amp manufacturers' sites (Rogue and several others) for their amps based on the AS1 and AS2 boards from what I can see directly in front of me. They seem to be Legacy-specific and the whole amp assembled by Legacy (on the Ultra version at least I can speak of) with attention to mating of the boards and the chassis to ensure continuous ground connections removing anodized finish where board and chassis mating must occur to ensure continuity with the chassis and also have additional grounding attention paid in the form of a 6 pound copper bar that is not visible in the photo.
This from someone who actually has seen, held, inspected and lived with this amp since May 2020.
Doug, The picture of the insides of the Legacy amp shows stock modules in a box......nothing more......it does have ground wires running from each module to ground......and a custom bracket for each module so they can sit on their sides and fit in the box. I see nothing except that. Stock modules in a box is what it is unless you show proof otherwise. There is nothing wrong with stock modules in a box. But don’t make it out to be something it is not. A stock module will sound like a stock module. A modded module will sound different....and to me, much better. I also A/Bed my mono modded IceEdge amp with two monoed stereo stock IceEdge and that person has now dropped off one off his stereo amps for me to mod because he was so impressed at how much better my modded amp was......and at that time, I had only done half the mods!
Using a mono module per channel is exactly the same thing as using one channel of a stereo module.....no difference. I know, I did both....same sound. My amps were dual mono using mono IceEdge. The mods make the module better......I know, I did each mod one at a time. They all work, you no have no idea what my mods do. Call me if interested in talking about it. You would find it enlightening. Everything can be improved. We are all a work in progress.....there is no end. Wishing you and everyone happiness, joy and love. We don’t need to defend ourselves....just state the truth (what you actually experience, first hand). The big TRUTH is that we are all totally worthy. We are all infinitely beautiful.
I have no need to further this discussion here....and I am sure, most others would like it to stop. Until the next truth be spoken......infinite blessings and Love to all.
If the amplifier is unable to follow the waveform presented to it (which is the source of all dynamic contrast) then it will distort.
Perhaps a bit counterintuitively, if a particular amp is **more** dynamic than most others (for example SETs) its also because of distortion. In the case of SETs up to about 20% of full power their distortion is pretty benign. But above that point, the higher ordered harmonics become more pronounced. Since the ear uses the higher ordered harmonics to sense sound pressure and because transients is where most of the power is, when the higher orders show up on the transients, the ear interprets that as 'louder on the leading edges' IOW more 'dynamic'.
Its a simple fact that when audiophiles talk about dynamics, about 90% of the time they are really talking about distortion, and you can safely replaced the word 'dynamics' in that conversation with 'distortion' without changing the meaning of the conversation.
Put another way, amps that sound more 'dynamic' are very likely to do so out of distortion and nothing else. The dynamic character of the music should come from the source, not the amp, that is if the amp is accurately reproducing the signal!
All so true....great post! I would only add that great amps that sound more dynamic can also do it due to extremely low distortion and better execution of instantaneous power delivery.
Actually, I should add to my last comment. A simple comparison is not terribly informative. A comparison between amps in use with 4-6 speaker systems, and from 12-18 discrete systems yields an entirely different assessment (perhaps consistent with first impression, perhaps not) than simply use in one system with one pair of speakers.
Short of such a thorough familiarization with an amp, the judgment of which is better is quite limited. That is why in my review I built more than a dozen discrete rigs with several pairs of speakers, my methodology. I pay no attention to what many think is SO important, break in. I build systems - and get a far better, global understanding of the performance of any component. :)
As to the rest of the reply, you cannot have one without the other, i.e.
a speaker that will do it when the amp cannot accomplish the same goal
and vice versa leaves you with the system not being able to do it so
with all respect, it does have to do with the amplifier’s capabilities.
If the amplifier is unable to follow the waveform presented to it (which is the source of all dynamic contrast) then it will distort.
Perhaps a bit counterintuitively, if a particular amp is **more** dynamic than most others (for example SETs) its also because of distortion. In the case of SETs up to about 20% of full power their distortion is pretty benign. But above that point, the higher ordered harmonics become more pronounced. Since the ear uses the higher ordered harmonics to sense sound pressure and because transients is where most of the power is, when the higher orders show up on the transients, the ear interprets that as 'louder on the leading edges' IOW more 'dynamic'.
Its a simple fact that when audiophiles talk about dynamics, about 90% of the time they are really talking about distortion, and you can safely replaced the word 'dynamics' in that conversation with 'distortion' without changing the meaning of the conversation.
Put another way, amps that sound more 'dynamic' are very likely to do so out of distortion and nothing else. The dynamic character of the music should come from the source, not the amp, that is if the amp is accurately reproducing the signal!
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