Class D amps that are superior to all or most?

So, what class D amps have you heard and which Class A transistor amp did the AGD better and in what ways?  Thanks.

Ralph,
Are you using tubes on the input....or is it discrete solid state or integrated circuits? Have you tried all kinds (types like toroid or enclosed, wire wound or foil...better wire quality, directionality of the wire, cryoing the coils, whether you run the signal into inner or outer winding on an air core, etc.) of different iron core and air core coils on the output? Everything makes a difference.

AGD GaN amps are not $32K. The Audion’s are $7500 a pair and the more powerful Gran Vivace’s are $18.5K a pair.

Also coming out this summer is a new Manhattan amp from Mytek....200 watts a channel dual mono stereo GaN based for $7K......The $20K 500 watt a channel Mytek GaN Empire mono blocks will be released in July. Lot’s of cool class D coming soon.

You don't need money to get power in class D.  Even the new GaN Premium-Audio stereo amp for $699 is rated for 200 watts a channel and they show a graph showing it not even clipping (usually 1% distortion ) doing 600 watts?  I am going to email them about this because seems to good to be true....maybe a peak power, or one channel driven only?

I have only seen the blah Herb Reichert review of the LKV (says it beats an old class D amp and is somewhat competitive with a $3500 Rogue tube amp).  Are there other reviews?

For $10K I would expect more. 

I can mod your PS Audio 1200 amps to sound way better. The modules are basically stock (they only remove a coupling cap they don’t need because they already have Rel-Cap capacitors after the tube stage and they remove a resistor on the board that allows a higher impedance so the tube stage will drive it better).

Benchmark does not make Class D amps. Class A/B with switching power supply.

The Tsunami amps (I believe) are the $4750 amps from Legacy. They use stock IceEdge modules.....same as PS Audio 1200....PS Audio ($6000 the pair, needs upgraded tubes) adds tube front end. Again, I can modifiy the Legacy amps to sound way better.

You can buy a dual mono IceEdge amp from Rouge Audio in Italy delivered to your door for $1600.....$3150 cheaper than the Legacy amp. This can be modded, as well.

https://en.rougeaudiodesign.com/product-page/studio-n-10dm

The output filter in a class D amp has very little effect on the frequency response. Please see Stereophile reviews where John Atkinson measures this. The output impedance of a lot of class D amps is seriously low and only rises at high frequencies to levels that are still below many class A or class A/B amps (certainly way below any tube amp). Please read and learn.

The Vera amps are very, very similar to VTV here in US....the VTV amps using Purifi modules can be bought for as little as $999 delivered. Way, way cheaper than the Vera amps......again the VTV amps can be modified for way better performance.

You more you search and read and learn......you will realize that you don’t need to spend a whole lot of money these days for great sound.

As good as modified Purifi and IceEdge sound......my sense is that they are not as good as the $7500 AGD Audio Audion mono GaN amps........so, if you have that kind of coin and 85 watts is enough for you than this amp may be the current ticket to ride. However, If AGD made the amp into a dual mono stereo amp and put all the circuitry inside like everyone else (including no fake tube thang, no flight cases, no upgraded power cords) then they could sell it for $3500. So, whatever you buy today will be equaled or bettered for less down the road.....which is great news, really.

George, 
How many times have you posted this info?......a million?  Yet, Michael Fremer thought the stock module to be quite good (read the stereophile review of PS audio 1200 amps)....he did not think the mids and highs on the $6K monos were quite as good as the $150K Dartzeel.  The modified IceEdge amps I sold are raved about sonically.  Then there is the about to be raved about by Doug Schroeder (stock versions from Legacy)......calling it a Tsunami.....he he.  He likes them better than big mono blocks from Pass.  So, with all your postings....it seems to have very little to do with the sound....yet, you keep harping on it.  The only ones that really know about something are those that listen.  You don't know anything about how a stock or modified IceEdge amps sounds....you only keep posting some spec you do not like. I personally do not care for the stock IceEdge module....but once modified, it sounds really good.  The IceEdge module will never be state of the art......it has flaws......including maybe those "bad specs".  But once modded, it sounds really GOOD......and you can have a dual mono stereo modified version (remember.....1200 watts into 4 ohm.....drove the Alexx speakers fine) for a little over $2000 delivered to your door.

Not exactly.  What I can do is modify the Rouge Audio Design Studio N-10DM dual mono IceEdge amp that can be purchased and delivered here in the US for $1600.  I then add my mods ($550) to it and it will be identical to your EVS 1200 amp minus the extra copper and aluminum plates I added in that product.

https://en.rougeaudiodesign.com/product-page/studio-n-10dm

Douglas Schroeder,
Where did the information come from that you posted about the Legacy Ultra being a bridged amp using both channels on each stereo module in some kind of bridge? "a differential topology"? As far as I know, each channel is already bridged and has a differential input stage. You cannot bridge a bridge. Check this picture out of another guy who has this amp.....you will see all the channels on top have no wires connected to their output terminals. You can clearly see a black and red wire coming out of the bottom speaker output terminals. So, it looks like they just buy stereo modules and the "ultra" version is just using one side of each stereo module as a mono. If this is so, then what you have is stock IceEdge modules in a box (no fancy differential bridged circuit)....I could be wrong. You can buy a dual mono IceEdge amp from Rouge Audio Design and it can be delivered for a little over $1500....way, way less expensive than Legacy. I worked on the IceEdge modules for 6 months making them sound way better.....and also using super AC inlet, wire and my binding post bypass system. I can improve any IceEdge based amp the same way.....way better sound for very little money. Stock IceEdge is OK but modded it is more pure and dynamic.

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5078#&gid=1&pid=11

Go to picture 11 and if you click on it once open, it will enlarge.

Douglas,
I consider what you said about modding to be ridiculous. Every new product is a revision or mod of the last one. Many companies just use different techniques or better parts they learn anew in the next model.....It is a mod. We keep learning. I have been manufacturing and modding gear since the 1970s. What I do works. My customers can attest to it. You have never heard anything I do. You have no knowledge whether my mods benefit sound. Does your modded shotgun cables change the sound for the better?.....it is a mod. When you swapped op amps in your DAC.....that was a mod. Everything is a mod. Read my website. I describe tons of things I do and even show pictures. Everything is a mod....everything makes a difference. No manufacturer has all the info. This game is infinite. The more I know....the more I know that I know nothing. I would certainly never put down what anyone says about what they hear. I only believe in the truth. The truth is what I hear. I only want happy customers......I have happy customers. Love is the truth that is always present. Love me.....I love you.

James,
Of course, when you run just one channel of a stereo module then the whole 1200 watt power supply can power one channel only....same as using a mono module.

Are you using both channels of the stereo module in some kind of bridged circuit? The output of each channel is already floating (not ground referenced) and bridged. The input stage is fully differential. How do you bridge two already bridged channels together? The pictures of the iV4 Ultra amp I showed, show no output wires coming from one channel or input wires to that channel either. Are you running wires underneath the board? As far as I know, you cannot bridge two channels together that are already bridged. You need ground referenced outputs to bridge. IcePower has always had differential Half bridged circuits on its outputs.

Doug,
You are making a mountain out of a mole hill.  You stated something in your review that made no sense to me.....the bridging thing.  So, I asked you where you got that information.  Then you repeated the same information, that to me, still makes no sense.  I showed you the insides of your amp and that it shows no hookups to one channel of each board.  I am interested in TRUTH.  Are you?  If you want to find out what is really going on in the amp (to back up what you think is going on) then all you have to do is take off the cover of the amp and take a good look inside and see if I am right or wrong.  It is either a stereo module using just one channel (what I think it is, again, I could be wrong) or it is some weird way to hook up two bridged channels together that I have never heard of.

I am semi retired.  I make practically nothing.  I don't have products to protect.  In fact, if I were still selling my IceEdge moduled amp I would remove the coverings of my mods to the board and let everyone see every single thing I do.  No one would be tweaky enough to even copy me.  What I do is not financially viable to run a company.  What I do is far to tweaky and time consuming.   I am mostly an enthusiast who is a crazy tweaker.  I love to turn people on to really good gear that costs very little.  I mostly love to teach people how to fully live in the moment......in the love and joy we really are.

I am sorry you feel threatened by my inquiry.  I only want the truth to be told.  Please follow up and show us the truth.  We are all ignorant.  No one knows everything.  We all make mistakes, we all assume things and tell others and then realize later that we were wrong.  We are all bozos on the buss. However, we are all divine and beautiful.  We can correct our mistakes.  We can forgive ourselves and others.  A sense of humor is always the great healer.  Lighten up, oh beautiful one.

This is what I think.  Legacy buys stereo modules.  They use them in all the amps.  So, an i-v8 would have 4 stereo modules (8 channels).  The regular i-v4 has two stereo modules (4 channels).  The I-v4 ultra has 4 stereo modules (8 possible channels) but they use just one channel of each module so they are basically mono amps.  This gives more power for each channel and zero cross talk.  Each channel is already bridged, so you cannot bridge an already bridged amp.  So, no the i-v4 ultra cannot be bridged in any way.  It already has 1200 watts into 4 ohms on each of its 4 channels.  How much power do you need?  I believe the i-v2 dual mono stereo amp has 2 stereo amps and then just uses one channel of each amp to make it mono.

I am sure the Legacy amps are very good. Stock IceEdge modules in a box. However, most people would want the dual mono iV2 amp that retails for $4785 (most don’t need or want a four channel amp like the $8700 iV4 Ultra). You can buy a stereo dual mono amp using mono IceEdge modules from Rouge Audio Design in Italy and have it delivered to your door for $1600.......a savings of $3185!!!!! I can also do mods on any IceEdge amplifier for very little money that improves their sound. Of course, many do no like buying via mail order and also from small companies and also don’t care for modding. I fully understand. The IceEdge modules are seriously reliable.

Oh gosh, I thought we were done with this.....again, here are 3 pictures of the insides of the i-v4 ultra......and what I see are 4 stock IceEdge modules. Does yours look different than these?

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5078

Pics 11, 12 and 13.......below is direct link to pic 11

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5078#&gid=1&pid=11

Doug,
The picture of the insides of the Legacy amp shows stock modules in a box......nothing more......it does have ground wires running from each module to ground......and a custom bracket for each module so they can sit on their sides and fit in the box. I see nothing except that. Stock modules in a box is what it is unless you show proof otherwise. There is nothing wrong with stock modules in a box. But don’t make it out to be something it is not. A stock module will sound like a stock module. A modded module will sound different....and to me, much better. I also A/Bed my mono modded IceEdge amp with two monoed stereo stock IceEdge and that person has now dropped off one off his stereo amps for me to mod because he was so impressed at how much better my modded amp was......and at that time, I had only done half the mods!

Using a mono module per channel is exactly the same thing as using one channel of a stereo module.....no difference. I know, I did both....same sound. My amps were dual mono using mono IceEdge. The mods make the module better......I know, I did each mod one at a time. They all work, you no have no idea what my mods do. Call me if interested in talking about it. You would find it enlightening. Everything can be improved. We are all a work in progress.....there is no end. Wishing you and everyone happiness, joy and love. We don’t need to defend ourselves....just state the truth (what you actually experience, first hand). The big TRUTH is that we are all totally worthy. We are all infinitely beautiful.

I have no need to further this discussion here....and I am sure, most others would like it to stop. Until the next truth be spoken......infinite blessings and Love to all.

The IceEdge modules are warrantied to an OEM as long as there are no mods to the modules (which is one reason most do not mod them), If a module goes bad then Icepower will replace any defective module for up to two years.  The modules are less than $300 each in quantity.  IceEdge modules are extremely reliable.

All modules that come from Ice, Hypex, Anaview, Purifi, Pascal, Powersoft, IR, etc.  are not designed for sonics.  The closest would be Purifi but I need to do mods to it to bring it up to serious levels.  We need designs by those that are super tweaky and are using the latest technology.  We now have GaN output transistors which seem to make a sonic improvement.....it is, however, just one factor among the infinite things in an amp that make better sound (in other words, all amps with GaN transistors will sound different from each other).  This is why this is an ever evolving game.  Some new from the ground up GaN developed amps are:

1. Premium-Audio 200 watt stereo for $699
2. Orchard Audo 150 watt mono blocks for $1500 and soon to be released 250 watt a channel amp...$2500?
3. LSA 200 watt a channel $3000.....says on the website to be released next month.
4. Mytek Manhattan dual mono 200 watt....$6K coming out this summer
5. Mytek Empire 500 watt mono amps....coming out in July $20K the pair
6. Java Hifi integrated amp ....starts at $8900
7. 85 watt mono AGD Audion Amps....$7500 the pair
8. Merrill Audio amps $16K-$38K
9. AGD Gran Vivachi mono blocks....$18k.
10. Technics integrated....10K and older stereo amp...$18k
11. Atmasphere stereo amp.....$5k?...later this year.

This is just the beginning.  Lots of cool stuff coming down the road.

George is wrong, in this case.  The muting circuit in the EVS1200 amp both shorts the inputs to ground and puts the amp in standby (turns off the main power supply.....so no caps are being charged).

George,
So much drama over nothing. Its just words. Here is how I describe it on my website:

"Standby/mute switch for each channel that allows you to put the amp in a super low power mode and also shorts the inputs for super protection."

This is what is so nice about switching power supplies.....you can do all kinds of cool things without a power switch.

Some people never use the muting switches....so the amp is constantly warmed up. Some will let it warm up for an hour or so before listening. Some only put it in mute when they leave for vacation, etc. etc....Infinite varieties for infinitely differing souls.

Breath in the Love....breath in the Joy....it is always present. Love yourself.....love everyone.....you do not need to be right. You are already most worthy......you are blessed beyond imagination. Open you heart....open your eyes.....the beauty is everywhere.

You can be a reaction robot....always reacting and defending your mental position.....or you can come from creation.....where you see the beauty and good in everything and everyone and then what you do reflects a heart that wants to be of service.....because you are so filled with joy.  The choice is always every second.  We choose love.....or we do not choose love and do the same ego/reaction dance we have done for a long, long time......time for a new tune.....a happy tune.....

George,
When the mute switches are engaged the amp is not being warmed up.  When they are not engaged then the amp is on and it is being warmed up.  What do you not understand about this?  If someone wants to warm up the amp and normally has the mute switches engaged then they just unmute them and wait till it is warmed up and start listening......just the same as anyone with a class A/B amp that does the same using their power switch.  What is there to argue about?  Do you argue with yourself when you are alone?  What lies are being told?  What notoriety?.....the only notoriety here is what you create......and you have created quite a notoriety.  Why don't you try a loving notoriety?  That would be sweet.

The capacitors will last longer if they are turned off most of the time. This is the same for any amp, no matter what the class. However, do you really care that the caps might need replacement (both amplifier boards in your case) in 10-15 years? Do you really think you will keep your amp that long? ha ha ha. All amps will become boat anchors....some sooner, some later. Does the amp sound better after it has been on for some time? Listen and find out. Some say class D needs to be on for two days to reach its sonic potential. Some say it does not sound different if warmed up. It does not matter what George says......he will always say the same thing.....even without listening. It does not matter what anyone says.....believe only your own ears. Find out for yourself. Don’t be lazy.

Two factors that stress capacitors are large current draws and high temperature. In a class D amp the current draw in minimum (the opposite of class A) and so is the temperature. Class D amps are super efficient and cool running. Still, it is a good idea to replace all the main electrolytic caps in any amp every 10-15 years.

Look at all the new amps coming out now......some will be modifiable....do you think your amps will be with you through next year? I doubt it. We have the Atmasphere amp, the Mytek amp, The Wryed for Sound amp, the new higher powered Orchard, the Premium Audio and the LSA amp all with GaN output devices....all either released or about to be. I am sure there are more on the way. A higher power Purifi module is about to hit the streets as well.

I just now noticed a pic of the insides of the new LSA Voyager amp......"lots of stuff to mod there"......he says, wringing his hands....he he.

You can see the insides of the Voyager on Underwood's site.  You will want it modified.  Lots to do there.

HIssssssssssssssssss went the snake............and glooooooooooooop goes the oil.

Thanks for the Love.....you and George must be buddies.....he he.

The fact is that everything makes a sonic difference and no one knows everything......so there are no perfect components.  This is why all class A/B amps sound different from one another and same with class D.  Every single thing you do makes the sound different.  This means that many many people can improve on any one design.  Not just snake oilers...but even flat earthers.

Discussing anything with you is like talking to a wall......there is no point.  You would just keep arguing.

George,
You know what kinds of mods I do......everyone can read my website. And I am sure you have.  You just want to point your finger and call names.  Grow up!

Just your opinion. The fact is that most people are "fusers" or "tweakers" or whatever you call it. Even those who do not believe in fuses....do other tweaky things you would not approve of. It’s funny that you say we would be overrun by fuser (tweaks) threads........this is truly an admission to the fact that the non tweakers are a minority trying to stop people from enjoying themselves.

The ones that hate fuses and tweaks are a very small minority. But some of these people are adamant about stopping most peoples wishes. They (you, for instance) post every time someone mentions tweaking. There are lots of manufacturers who do super tweaking.....lots of them. This is a fact, and you know it.

The "honest" truth is......you like to argue and be right and put people down. This is your main reason for being here. This is why you have all those put down captions. We can all see through your game.....and I am surprised the mods have not stopped your constant put downs.

Tweakers and non tweakers can live together and do not need to confront one another. If you do not like what someone has to say about tweaking...then move on. Stop being so confrontational. You think you are doing the world a favor? If you really want to help people.....become a better, more loving human being. Let the tweakers have their dance.....and you can have your dance.....while we all smile.

I am really glad the Audion’s are rocking a lot of people. What we need is a cheaper version and alternative lower priced competition. If AGD put all the circuits in one box and got rid of the silly tube thang they could sell a dual mono single chassis amp for half the price. We have GaN amps from LSA now and coming soon GaN amps from Wyred for Sound and Mytek. Let’s see if some of them can compete with the tuberators.....and for less money. Fun time ahead.

Its not that the issue is new.  Even 40 years ago you had people who only believed in numbers.  What is new now is that there is the internet....so people can let their feelings be known.  Some non tweaking believers are on a mission to let everyone know the emperor has no clothes.....trouble is, the emperor likes being naked....ie: most like the results of tweaking.  These non tweaking cult members can be relentless....like a mosquito on a summers night.

Most new models from most manufacturers are just mods of previous models.....they find better caps, wire, resistors, power supply regulators, circuits, jacks, bigger cap banks, larger transformers, better fuses, damped chassis, etc. etc. and that is what the new model is.....just a tweaked out older jobbie. 

When Bruno created the first N-core amp....the NC400...it measured extremely well.  People on DIY audio and other sites started to prostrate in front of Bruno......saying he was the ultimate genius because he made something measure so well......and that it was the "perfect" amplifier.  Well, I took this perfect amp and modded it with better output filter caps and it sounded much better......So, was it perfect before I modded it or after?....I say neither.  Nothing is perfect.  I just made a good amp better. The mod would not change the distortion measurements.  Rarely does anyone mod their NC400 so I no longer make money on this mod.  Here is a link to people talking about the mod: 

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=118868.0

No matter what these pesky anti modding/tweaking mosquitoes say.....we all benefit from better parts and execution......we get better sound.....but not necessarily better measurements.  When we come up with measurements that correlate to what we hear it will be very interesting.  So far, we cannot measure anything different in most sonic changes.....but we certainly can hear them.  Long live our ears and our belief in our ability to discern better sound!

Kuribo stated:
"You really are clueless if you think all Bruno did with the Purifi design is "tweak" a few parts."

Where did I state this? I already stated (maybe you cannot read?) that tweaking is ANYTHING that improves the sound and performance....including circuit changes. Bruno makes it clear what design changes he has done to take his Purifi module up a tick or so over the NC500/NC1200 (in his opinion....not shared by everyone). One thing he kept using are the Polyprop caps from Wima as his output filter caps......trouble is, Wima has gone back to putting STEEL leads on the caps to save a millionth of a cent on each cap. So all the output filter caps on a Purifi module have steel leads. One of the mods I do to the Purifi module is to remove all 6 caps and dremel off the steel leads and put 6N copper leads on and then test the caps using a signal generator and scope to identify the outside foil. I mark the outside foil and then re-install the caps so the outside foil is oriented to ground. This gives noticeably better sound. No, it will not make it measure any different.

Trusting your ears is beneficial to getting great sound. Trusting the opinion of those that do not listen will just get you bitten (mosquitoes hurt!).