I perfer wbt crimps;) But when solder is needed I mostly use WBT. |
On my Klipsch I used dorf silver golds. Still wasent so hot so used fostex t900a a big step up. Still not as good as I hoped so upgraded woofers a bit better but still just ok. So damped rebuilt cabinet much better but still not as nice as my modern horns so I replaced midrange with JBL mid horn with a dukane. Again big improvement over stock but I ended up with little to nothing that was klipsch so I used the old horns crossover drivers cab etc and rebuilt the orignal khorn and agoned them. Tried Lascalas ended up upgrading those till most nothing was left. For me klipsch are cool but not my cup of tea. |
I tried many many amps pres etc while I owned the klipschs I always had other loudspeakers and systems about so easy to compare. Not saying klipsch is bad just klipsch might not be right for others. If your looking to improve on a k horn tweeters and crossovers are a good start. Next address the cabinets. When I built a doubled baltic birch ply cabinet with modern damping the bass was greatly improved as was the imaging, think cabinet vibration smeared image from mid and tweeter. |
The dorfs I use take awhile to break in. But the new crossover could be showing some of the limitations of the vintage drivers etc. Many variables with crossovers- drivers etc toss in age just another to go wrong, still end result might be worth the effort but then again it might not. |
I wouldnt spend so much on parts. If crossover needs rebuild I would ask about on the klipsch forum bet someone could tell you where to get the most bang for your buck. I have access to many costly parts transducers etc. I kind of just threw money at the problem a bit of over kill. To see if I could take my klipschs to extreme performance limits;) Many folks who post are looking for someone to agree that what they are doing or have done etc is the right way. If you disagree folks can get angry so I feel most just keep - things to themselfs. |
I had the best years for klipsch when Paul was still arround all mine had alnico mags etc. My new horns use 8-15in woofers 4 per front horn with alnico comp mid horn and alnico comp tweeters. When I wake 1st thing I do is turn the big system on. Use if most all day for its in my home office and I work at home;) I owned avantgarde duo 2.2 was nice but not anywhere near the performance of what Iam running now. |
Alnico magnet compression driver. Improved from pauls time I feel they where less well made after 1970s.VG email me if you want horn system pics. |
Many alnico mag drivers about today plus now we have neodymium. I even had some fostexs with a cobolt mags. Ive collected much vintage modernized some still wasent as good as modern. But was fun and interesting plus you learn something from mucking about hard to put a cost on knowledge. There is something special about klipsch this you know already or you wouldnt be waisting time and funds on upgrades. Just set your goals more realisticaly improving sound of a collectable loudspeaker not trying to built it into a SOTA horn system. Good luck with your modifications and happy listening. JK |
Sorry confused yours with K horn. I sold my 1967 Lascalas for $900. I would sell Lascala and go Altec. |
Fan boys will always say what they are into is the best. Plus you get the old back in my day klipsch was the king and still nothing better. I hear the same from collectors of most all vintage items. Always was better back in the day seen through rose colored glasses. Altecs are better and cheaper than klipsch. And thats just the start. If you love klipsch fine but far from state of the art even when modernised. I would say they will sound like a $2250 loudspeaker:) Thats about what good used K horns go for. Keep in mind some of this hobbies about having fun many forget this. And if your having a good time with the khorns thats what its about not trying to find some SOTA that doesnt exist. |
US still makes great hi-fi. You just have to search it out, not mass produced or marketed so more work to find but well worth it. |
Caps are lucky to last 30 years. The dorfs are far better than vintage but the silvers do have a bit of hi-frequincy sparkle. Sonic caps are not near the quality of mundorfs. Tube amps help flesh out some vintage and other systems. And its easy to improve on old stuff but maybe not so easy to modify some old stuff to be near as good as modern ;) And some vintage is darn good WE RCA JBL some Altecs I feel some of these drivers to be as good as modern transducers. The cabinets not so much so. |
I know folks will disagree but my findings are that caps need breakin. The dorfs can take a 100 or so hours to fully open up. Maybe you didnt give the sonics enoff time. |
I found the midrange to be the best thing about my klipschs. The bass and trebile are sub optimal. The smearing in bass is due to the bass cab design I built 2 improved klipsch bass cabinets and they sounded near the same poor;) Replacing the tweeter with a fostex realy helped. Like I said in my other posts to this thread I ended up replacing most everything and still my other horns where superior. Maybe you should look at it like this. You have a cool collectable loudspeaker why try to make it modern leave it be, maybe DIY or purchase another loudspeaker for critical use. Just a thought |
Wait till you hear what replacing the tweeter with a fostex t900a or t500amk2 would do;) klipsch tweeters are not so good...I would replace the tweeters before I would buy crazy costly caps like dueland. Not mater what cap you run on the klipsch tweeters its not going to be near the performance of a t900a with the most affordable caps arround. Dampening the bass cabinets also is a good place to start. So to get the best out of klipsch upgrade tweeters, upgrade crossover, dampen bass cabinets and you should be good to go...Or turn them and buy a Altec model 19;) To me the altecs a superior loudspeaker. The model 19 also benifits from adding t500amk2 or t900a. |
Yes KCS is my company. Many of our models use mundorf caps and sport quality alnico magnet drivers. I have used Duelands and they are very good but its the transducer that maters more than the cap. On my Klipsch and altecs I used t900a t500amk2 as tweeters. Still have 2 pairs of altecs bunch of other vintage but I collect because Iam interested in the design and construction of vintage not bacause its equal to modern in quality of sound. Though the altecs after a wee bit of work are close to modern horns in quality of sound. Have heard many highly modified and stock k horns a good friend uses 4 arround his pool!! Sure can be fun for partys. I use 1 pair of altecs in my bedroom hooked to a small TV and SACD DVDA player sound is very pleasent great for late night presleep listening. Good luck with you quest and happy listening, email if you want a pic of my main horn rig. JK-K.C.S. |
Have you run in the mundorfs? they take many hours to fully open up. Doesnt seem to me that your givin each set of caps enofe run in time before judging sound. |
Sorry dont know of any paper oil caps. I owned a 500c had it rebuilt by fischer doc, best tubes you could buy in it was fun. But not close to performance of my modern tube gear. Did ok on my vintage speaker collection. I was able to pick up some altecs off craigslist. Owner didnt know correct model num. So I thought what the heck might as well give them a look over, turned out to be model 19 and hes orignal owner with manual etc. Said he had another old speaker I saw a pair in walnut, grills covered in cat hair. I pulled grills and a near mint model 15 altec was revieled. He said he sent in both sets of woofers to GPA for new surounds. And bought both new in the late 70s. He remembered having to wait for 4 months for delivery back in the 70s but didnt remember much else. Nice set of cornwalls local to me but I have so much kit hard to find a place for it. |
Still I feel using such costly parts on the poor old klipsch tweeters is a bit of a waist of funds. Replace it, use a good cap and be done. Trust me the tweeters are a very weak link and with what your spending on crossovers parts you could afford proper replacement tweeters. I disagree with money on caps is better than money spent elsewhere for if your loudspeakers where modern and of proper design changing the caps wouldnt make much diferance. Now your replacing parts that probly where out of spec since you dont have a mint stock klipsch to compare to your voicing these speaker to your own tastes room system keep this in mind. I wonder have you tested the old caps to see if they are realy out of spec? Also with loudspeakers transducer quality realy maters as does crossover, cabinet, finish, dampening etc. Its a total design if done right. I disagree with this statement [I think money on caps may be better money[spent] than on speaker wire, interconnects or anything I can think of] I would say treat your system like what it is a system not a colection of gear. Focusing on 1 aspect of a systems performance mostly leads to grief in the long term. |
I agree loudspeakers are the most important part of the system. As far as 50% cash for crossover 50% rest is just crazy. If I followed this 50% rule my loudspeakers would be the worse off for it. A crossover can not make a poor transducer into a great 1. Cabinet transducers and crossovers must all be designed to be a whole. Using crazy costly parts in crossovers is not the best way. Your getting the sound you want but your results are not of as of much use to others as you think. Steens wrong about loudspeaker design sure I use mostly 1st order gental slopes but I have use for stepper cut offs just depends on designs end goal no one way to build a loudspeaker. Sure its harder to design multiway loudspeakers but 3-4 -5 ways can be needed depending on design goals. I also disagree with the horn quote[With a well-constructed horn and a single loudspeaker, much can be achieved concerning experience, but full range and relaxing to listen to, it will never be. But they can be very spellbinding] I have designed constructed full range single driver loudspeakers also full range horn systems these loudspeakers are definatly relaxing to listen too. Well maybe the cap manufacters just dont want you to buy or DIY a loudspeaker without crossovers. |
$500 for caps? Fostex t90a $300 pair, t900a under $800. With a just a solen would do better than the klipsch tweeter no mater what cap you use. With a mundorf silver gold even better.... |
Supremes are alright the silver golds are much much better but costly. I mostly use silver oil or silver gold |
My wife was a bit put off by my oris 150 converging horn array with 8 oris 150 horns and dual upsized imperal bass horns with 4 -18in woofers. This system end to end touching no space between was 19ft wide. My wife hated the size but after a week she used them daily. When I sold them to build other designs. She was upset;) Now she only listens when I have a horn SET system shes doesnt know this but I do...When I use SS shes just doesnt use them. My sons picky if I change for the better he will sit centered listening for quite awhile. If its not up to snuff he says turn it down daddy, no music. Hes 8 and autistic so verbal but a bit behind. He does have a musical photographic memmory, knows 100s of songs even keeps beat and time between verse. He can drum very well without any teaching. Built his 1st loudspeaker design unaided at 4. All I did was solder wire to driver. He picked drivers, cabinet [a tube], dampening, port size ,etc. And all was right. Ive had 2 friends build copys but with a veneered tube. I was working on a customer project he was without my knowledge working on my bench, used tubes from shrink wrap both same size. Still have 1 he trashed the other. I do trust his ears for I have tested system after he complains and have measured problems. |
If you want a pic of the massive oris rig email. Used 2 watt 45 SET on horn array on bass horns used a 18 watt set. On loudspeaker like I mostly use SET are the most musical and real sounding. I try most every thing end up back in the SET and horn camp. |
Are you still doing all this to your klipsch? And if so how much use is your findings unless ones using the same klipsch model and system as you. They would also have to share your personal tastes. I check this thread from time to time but I dont think your results are in anyway more than just finding what sound you enjoy little about how these capacitors etc would perform with other loudspeakers diferant network types and with diferant listening tastes and systems. |
Are you still doing this to the Klipschs? Wouldn't it have been better if performance was your true goal to address the transducers which are poor performing. The cost of the capacitors etc you place before these average at best transducers. Is kind of insane. For what you've spend you could run ALE;) Plus have you rebuilt the cabinets with better plys etc? still using the stock horn mids? If you have not addressed the poor cabinet transducers horns etc as well as crossover. Your just pissin in the wind. But if you enjoy it who am I to say your wrong. But I still will;) Much more to mod in k horn than the networks. And any thing I mentioned would make far greater performance increase than capacitor changes. |
I would agree klipsch can be a good value. Still I would buy Altec over Klipsch. And I have found crossover parts do effect sound quality. Not comparing my horn designs to your k horns just feel that the constant change of crossover parts is a bit like a dog chashing his tail. Still feel if you upgraded tweeters to t900a t500amk2 you would hear a much larger improvement over caps changes. Bert doesnt use W bin. But pretty sure he offers plans. I moded a few K horns over the years. Best bet was replacing tweeters, rebuilding cabinets with doubled plys or 1in min. Upgrading networks. I replaced my woofers and ended up using JBL 2440 and dukane copper horn with t500a. When done I had no orignal klipsch parts. So took parts rebuilt a k horn sold them on audiogon. I do enjoy collecting vintage loudspeakers and gave up on moding them much. If working why mess with them you end up with something completely diferant and no longer collectable. But YMMV and if this is fun and of worth to you who am I to rain on your parade |
I highly upgraded the k horn network. Used hi quality parts from mundorf alphacore nordost WBT. I would never start a loudspeaker design based on crossover. And I still feel your chasing your tail. Capacitors are not transducers no cap or crossover parts going to improve performance or frequncy responce of a transducer. What your doing is building passive eq into network by selecting crossover parts not on testing but on how they sound in your loudspeaker with your system and with your personal tastes. Nothing wrong with that but your results are for you only not a blanket statement like[One can take their pick of almost any speaker used and gut the crossover and I bet in every case it comes out as a fantastic deal].This is just not true. But I feel Im talking to the converted so I will leave you be. Happy listening. |
$64000 for caps:) Crazy world for sure. |
One thing thats forgotten in this thread is transducer interaction with network. Just because in one crossover on one loudspeaker someone changed capacitors and say ones better than another is purely subjective. Listeners tastes system room loudspeakers used ex cetera matter as much if not more than part chosen for network. Since so many variables these tests to me are useless. And only tell you weather the person doing test is enjoying the sound not that one caps better than another. And it may well be that they are better in this case but that doesn't mean that if I use in different loudspeaker design with dif crossover type that results would be the same. This is a problem for subjective reviews and testing. |
Just wondering if any of you compared modified networks to stock to see if changes where really positive. |
Thread is 6 years old you would think the networks been sorted out by now sure looks to be a extremely costly bunch of putzing about. Might of been better to just saved up and bought better kit. |
My issue is that as far as I've read not one has compared the original unaltered network to modified one and many have modded network than modded again over and over. I have yet to read that the gents experimenting so have tested results at all just modded and it sounds great so modded again, and again it sounds better. This is a very unscientific way of getting results and enables the many flaws of human perception to rule instead of facts. Most don't seem to understand the different levels of insertion lose. Or magnetic interaction between crossover parts. And again many who are throwing crazy money at average loudspeakers with run of the mill transducers.Confirmation bias is mostly what I read about in this thread. Not trying to be a jerk etc just trying to help. I design loudspeakers networks etc. Only real way to tell if crossover part is better than stock is to compare the 2 test objectively and subjectively not to mod both and just listen falling prey to biases and other human faults. |
How do you really know? Since you didn't compare the unaltered to altered? You spent quite a bit of $ took time and did mod how could it be anything but better after? Maybe you should read up on confirmation bias. Its very easy to keep one speaker stock listen in mono to compare. How do you know if the dueland just has different level of resistance than solen this alone would alter sound quality. And may cause slight increase or decrease in SPL of driver. |
Not debunking the fact that different parts have different sound quality just the way the mods are done. I feel many posting could of saved time $ and ended up with better results if they approached the modifications with a objective skeptical mind.So easy to test end result with stereo speakers just mod one at a time compare result how hard is that? |
If you note I was one of the 1st in this thread. And I do find it a bit strange that a trained scientist would ignore the most basic tests and just trust subjective results. I still think if those who mod would approach it with more knowledge and and bit of skepticism. And maybe even compare results not rely on flawed acoustic memory and confirmation bias. This thread focuses on only one aspect of a loudspeaker and a loudspeaker is a whole and should be designed as such. Tossing crazy money at inferior transducers to me makes no sense at all. but I do know that it's futile to discuss this. People who post to these threads tend to seek agreement and ignore those who don't just say great job well done you rock. So I end my replies to this thread. |
