Can hi-end cables benefit less expensive electronics?

@serblinfan 

Thanks for sharing. My first digital cable upgrade was really eye opening.

... it's just that once you try something better, there's no going back.... ;-)

                                                       +1

                                             Happy listening!

Thank you! You guys have all been very helpful, so I thought I should share how it all ended for me, since I kept you occupied with comments for quote some time :-) 

@serblinfan 

Fantastic! Glad it worked out for you. Thanks for the update.

Expensive cables are boring. Expensive components are cool.

Hallo, for people who followed this topic, I would just like to say that I finally opted for the Hijiri HDG Million digital cable, and I'm happy with the change. It was definitely worth the investment, proving, in my system at least, that the digital link is just as important as other cables, affecting the sound. Now the sound is much smoother, the lower frequencies are deep but never boomy, the higher frequencies are smooth but clear (I love the cymbals), and the midrange, especially vocals, is enchanting. The soundstage has also improved considerably over my Furutech Ag cable I previously used. If I had never tried the Hijiri, I'm sure I would be able to enjoy music with Furutech as well - it's just that once you try something better, there's no going back.... ;-)

Pro or against expensive cables. I don't understand the arguing over it. If something sounds better to you on your system, use it. If it doesn't,  don't use it. What's better for me may not be better for you. If something does work out well, I like hearing about it. If someone else wants to trash your good experience,  I don't want to hear about it.

Thanks, Willie Wonka.

I was about to reply to ghdprentice about that, and say, essentially, what you just said.

The noise floor’s lowest level is likely to drop with a better designed power cord. That’s part of the reason I like Shunyata. I have several generations of power cords here, and it can easily be heard that the newer lines have a considerably lower noise floor, so I can hear quieter, more delicate details (and in classical music, that is what makes the music: the delicate moments).

As for Megabyte’s argument, I’m not going down that rabbit hole. All I will say is, I have a $300 power cord, and it does not reproduce eight notes remotely as well as the Sigma power cord does.

Designers design to a price point, lets not forget that. And if a $100 power cord can reproduce triple tonguing (as heard in Scheherazade, Chicago Symphony Orchestra, RCA Living Stereo), then the designer has no need to have a $1,000, $3,000 or whatever cost power cord. It’s hard enough for many electronics to reproduce things like triple tonguing, never mind the power cords.

But some people don’t care about triple tonguing, legato or staccato, or diminished eighths. That’s fine for them. I do want to hear these things on the disc because they are is part of the musical composition. If it’s there, I want to hear all the pauses, rests that make the composition come alive. 50%?? 60%?? Not good enough. When I’m at the symphony, I hear 100%. I want my stereo to reproduce that as closely as possible.

I do get why people stop at a certain level. That is not what I am arguing against. I am arguing against people who have never heard what can be reproduced and yet still scream "Snake Oil". How do they know?? They’ve never, EVER heard the product. Anyone’s better products, for that matter!

It’s like telling me that a Corvette drives as well as a Lamborghini, even though you’ve never even sat in either vehicle, much less driven one. People would be laughed out of the racing car community if they ever made a statement that "The Corvette is just as good as the Lamborghini.Pardon me, you’re asking if I’ve ever driven one - or both - of them??? Why, no, I haven’t. But I’m certain of what I’m talking about..." Laughed. Out.

This reminds me of something I learned when I was young. Other kids would come to the house, and my mother would offer them food - usually including a vegetable (my mom was a nutritionist). One of the kids would invariably say, "I hate_______(broccoli/lettuce/ spinach)."  My mom would then ask - in a very neutral tone - "Have you had it before?" And I knew what was coming. I would turn to my sister and say, "DUCK. HERE IT COMES." And they'd say, "No, I've never had it." And them mom would say, "Then you don't know what you're talking about!!! Shut your mouth until you've tried it!!!"  (I suspect my mom must have known Ivor Tiefenbrun, the Linn founder, who said exactly the same thing.)

'Nuff said!

@megabyte, @gbmcleod, @ghdprentice 

I have been building cables for over 20 years, on systems ranging from a $350 mini system, a Bluesound Speaker, my own system priced around $20k, and other systems priced over $100k.

Each system performed noticeably better with a better power cable, with improvements in

• noise floor
• bass - more detailed and fuller
• faster dynamics
• more micro details in the venue acoustics

Here's a thread that explains the many facets of good cable design

• What Makes good Cable

Regards - Steve

@gbmcleod

Certainly a very good power cord may improve an inexpensive amp. But, it is unlikely to have the impact because the noise floor of the components is likely to be much higher than a high end component… basically covering up the improvement… same logic with dynamics… etc.

@megabyte

The answer is easy to determine. Actually  compare a dozen different power cords on an high end system. Include a two meter Audioquest Hurricane and Dragon as well as a Cardas Clear Beyond and High end Nordost and your question changes to… how do they do that?

It seems to me that a power cord can only benefit an amplifier in 2 ways. It can be thick enough gauge to properly transfer your AC power to the amp. And it can be shielded so other sensitive cables near or touching it aren’t being interfered with. And that’s fine. I fully admit this to be true. The problem I have is, all this can be easily done for $100 or less. Let’s be fancy and say why not go all out and spend $500, maybe $1000 for a truly great one. So what exactly is the $20-$50,000 power cord doing that can’t be done for $500, or even $150? Electricity and wires isn’t super complicated. We’ve just about nailed it at this point. And, this is NOT a cord transmitting perhaps more delicate analog signals that are in the signal path where you could at least think, just maybe the sound can be affected. It’s a simple power cable that’s outside the signal path. It’s doable for $100, they can totally nail it in every possible way for 500, including the same top grade connectors the insanely priced ones use. So explain the $25,000 power cord please.

I’m not sure I agree that a better power cord is a poor idea for less expensive electronics.

The right cord should - at the very least - lower the noise floor, so you hear less electronic interference when playing music, resulting in a clearer sound. Now, if a "euphonic" sound is what someone wants, that’s fine. After all, it’s your system. But, even with my older NAD integrated, they sounded better with a better power cord.

There’s a caveat here, though. If you are not listening to well-recorded music - which typically is classical and jazz and a few other genres, you won’t get all the benefits. I was listening to my system with a top of the line Shunyata cable, and what I heard first was the improvement in the bass, when I played a disco cut I played in clubs years ago. Having heard this record since 1978, I know how it sounded on earlier iterations of the system. Aside from the bass (on this particular record), I didn’t hear the rest of the sound to improve in any noticeable way. Since it’s a record i doubt they put much effort into recording, I wasn’t expecting much from it. And that’s what I got. Improved bass, but the vocals were no clearer than they were before. This is down to one thing: your choice in music.

I’ve had other CDS or vinyl that sounded better with a better cord (and I used several levels of the company whose power cords I buy: Shunyata), but I know that it’s a hit-or-miss proposition if the music is typical of the way most music is recorded (doubling up the main vocalist’s voice, or 85 microphones used) - things that have nothing to do with music. What IS encouraging is that more recently recorded music seems to be tilting towards better recording, which is always a good thing. 

I can’t imagine a good cord making the musical presentation worse. I CAN imagine hearing the recording as it really is, and then being disappointed because it ’sounded better with a cheap cord.’ But again, the deciding factor there is the music one plays. Electra Records from the 1980s will never sound as if they have any bass, because Electra was famous for ’no bass’ on their records in the ’80s (the ’70s were quite different). Their entire recording process was horrible in that decade: glassy-sounding music with no depth. And a good cord might reveal more of that "this-is-how-it-actually-sounds" effect, but then, that’s the record (and I don’t imagine streaming or CDs will improve the sound quality).

So, a really good power cord will show you what something sounds like - or at least, uncover the poorer recorded aspects of a record, but do you want that? Me, I play all kinds of music and am sometimes surprised by how good a recording I haven’t played in years, sounds. I also find that vinyl reveals this more than CDs (I don’t stream much at all), so it also depends on what your medium of choice is.

That said, a well-engineered power cord will lift the system’s sound quality upwards. I’ve never heard one that makes the system sound worse, unless you count banishing the euphonic effects a bad thing.

@megabyte …”cables will affect higher end systems less than less well made (cheaper) systems”

Yes that sounds logical, but the reality is generally the opposite. The better (higher resolving, more carefully voiced) the more difference cables make.

@ghdprentice +1.  I’d use the example of putting a $4k set of tires on a Ferrari versus putting them on a Toyota Corolla.  Those tires on the Ferrari will allow it to tap further into its considerable capabilities while they’re more likely to just highlight the Toyota’s limitations. 

@megabyte …”cables will affect higher end systems less than less well made (cheaper) systems”

Yes that sounds logical, but the reality is generally the opposite. The better (higher resolving, more carefully voiced) the more difference cables make. High end equipment is like very high quality scientific instruments, susceptible to more subtle differences.

absolutely not as long as the cables where they’re cheap or expensive are well-made and you can find hundreds of well made ’affordable’ cables on amazon

every audio product class has low end, mid-end and high-end designs, including cables. even with my decades long design and test experience, is very hard for me to provide opinion on "to do or not” for cable replacement move, without specifics provided. I found excellence in SQ/performance of “some cables” from 80s, at very low price, beating many current “better” x100 exp. ones.

It seems to me, since most of the issues higher end cables claim to address are ostensibly minimized and handled better by the design, tech, build quality etc. of more expensive, higher end equipment, cables will affect higher end systems less than less well made (cheaper) systems. 

Better cables will most likely make a difference, in most levels of systems. 

But, the better and better a systems gets, the bigger the audible differences will become. 

@jc4659 ​​​& @soix-

                                       +1 each (overall)

                                        The OP, as well. 

@knownothing Thank you for your interesting post. By the way, anyone has tried the Hijiri Million digital cable? I can see some conflicting opinions on forums, mostly very positive. Some warn it’s not the best cable for a system on the neutral/cool side. I wonder how it would sound in my system. Expensive, but still cheaper than top cables from brands such as Transparent or Siltech. 

If you have a poor source on one end sending a signal to poor amplification and then out to ill sounding speakers, I’m not sure how having nifty interconnects and power cords makes any of it sound good 

@serblinfan good thread.  Yes, excellent cables can generally help any system, and I generally error on the higher percentage of system investment in cables.  ALSO, my experience with gear several rungs down from your kit is that there is a big difference between sound of different digital cables, and that you will do yourself a disservice if you do not try several different cable brands and designs in your system in your listening room to see which works best for you.

I did somewhat exhaustive test of digital coax cables with an earlier permutation of my main system and the results were that I ended up buying a coax cable that in its current iteration retails for more than half the list cost of my streamer and DAC combined, with zero regrets.

if interested, you can read about my experience in this thread.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/yes-digital-cables-matter-too
 

kn

* … resolution / imaging and soundstage … 

I recently upgraded my family room system (Ayre AX-5 “Teenty” integrated amp, Aurender A30 Streamer, Sonus Faber Guarneri Evolution & REL S/2) with AudioQuest Thunderbird interconnects, Nordost Frey 2 & Tyr 2 power cables and Frey 2 Speaker cables.  Major improvements in clarity, / resolution, singing and soundstage.  My wife also noticed the improvements.  I love the music even more post cable upgrades.  No need to upgrade any components. 

There is enough to be seen in the Links to give an individual a boost in how they think about their creative skills.

The Helix Design is not to be overlooked either, an adventurous type might make a conventional and Helix just to see ?

l have also included a few Off the Shelf designs for the Cable Type as well. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131150991198?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-153316-527457-8&mkcid=2&itemid=131150991198&targetid=4584757337008490&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=431353847&mkgroupid=1298523655396099&rlsatarget=pla-4584757337008490&abcId=9301942&merchantid=87779&msclkid=40cbff4e23801cc2c02399f8d712be47

https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/japan/en/special/order/confirm/audio9:10004914/2_1/

https://www.image99.net/blog/files/category-002ahelix-image-usb-cable.html

https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/japan/en/special/order/confirm/edion:10676754/2_1/

https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/japan/en/special/order/confirm/tantan:13282717/2_1/

@pindac Thanks for the suggestion, I will take a look. Though I would be wary of trying to make my own USB, pretty fine work. 

@zlone If you can find a USB using PC Triple C Wire, my experience of this Cable used this Wire Type in the Signal Path at all other  Umbilical Interfaces is able to produce something extra to the end sound in comparison to a OCC Wire Type.

To keep it simple, in a variety of comparisons across different systems the OCC Wire Types used in the systems has been classed as veiled / coloured in comparison. PC Triple C has shown the Wire Type enables a deeper insight into the recording, with a perception the Soundstage has had a few puffs of air to increase the overall volume.

Investing in a length of Cable with PC Triple C Wire , Solid Copper USB connectors and Building Your Own Cables with PC Triple C, will produce a Cable designed to perform. Looking into Solid Copper USB Connectors for the Chassis will also be means to create an improved interface for the Umbilical connection.  

FWIW, I just replaced the Transparent USB cable that came with my Innuos streamer with a WireWorld Platinum USB. This was close to a component upgrade in the change it made to my system. I am a big fan of OCC wire, and also favor Acoustic Zen. I have used the a AZ digital coax as well and it was excellent. 

@pindac, interesting, thank you.

@soix, thank you!

The Link is to a Cable you may be encouraged to try out in conjunction with another Off the Shelf Cable.

I know individuals who have turned over £1000's on Cables to be tried out and are now settled with this Cable in the Link.

https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.aliexpress.com%2Fitem%2F1005005557893070.html%3FsrcSns%3Dsns_Copy%26spreadType%3DsocialShare%26bizType%3DProductDetail%26social_params%3D21468686885%26aff_fcid%3Df347f79dba24483ea333b772c3e769a1-1714283205193-08565-_mLytK7g%26tt%3DMG%26aff_fsk%3D_mLytK7g%26aff_platform%3Ddefault%26sk%3D_mLytK7g%26aff_trace_key%3Df347f79dba24483ea333b772c3e769a1-1714283205193-08565-_mLytK7g%26shareId%3D21468686885%26businessType%3DProductDetail%26platform%3DAE%26terminal_id%3D6d07792d7af74e5f89230082924f9bf3%26afSmartRedirect%3Dy&data=05%7C02%7C%7C9a94bf5e7e8e403224ee08dc679da4fa%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638499173988247239%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=OnHHvi%2BhcXyjLpYDocLDwq7vTql%2Fnebib5oI1b179ws%3D&reserved=0

Be interested to know your thoughts once you get a new cable.  And BTW, your English is excellent. 

But overall, I guess this is a very interesting discussion, because there are many cable topics everywhere, but not much discussion particularly in the context ot buying top-of-the-line cables for not-at-all-top-of-the-line components. I really appreciate all the response I'm getting. 

The above serves as a clarification that there are also personal psychological factors involved in my considerations... 

Thank you all for the precious input. A very interesting discussion for me, and I'm humbled by the fact this is/was one of the most popular threads on Audiogon. I never expected that. If I buy an expensive digital coax (Metronome seems to favour coax), I will certainly add an honest opinion on whether this has been a change for the better, or for the worse. I'm tempted by the digital cable upgrades for two reasons, to be honest. Of course, I have some hopes of adding some sophistication to the sound of my digital setup, which doesn't really need adjustment sound-wide (and my other cables are already "hi-end" price wise and offering improvement, or at least not making things worse..). Here this stems from my belief (and intuition! ) that the digital link is really important and still not appreciated enough. The second thing... is my desire to own something special people rave about ;-) The second point might come to you as a surprising confession. I live in Poland, where money has always been an issue more than in most other places. As a student, I read about all those expensive brands people own, dreaming that one day I might also be able to afford it.  Now I know the price is not indicative of quality, but I guess I still have this desire to own something I could not afford in the past, even if this defies logic... And I always wanted the best ;-) I'm currently considering Transparent Digital Link XL or Siltech Golden Eagle Double Crown, both of wich I can get at nearly half the retail price. Admittedly, it's an effect of audiophilia nervosa... I am aware of it. Somebody suggested Audioquest Carbon as a good choice - I had this cable once and it was a really good cable, but I used it only to connect my Mac to the DAC in Metronome CD8. Not sure what I'm going to opt for in the end, but I will certainly let you know. It's quite likely I will victim of my "being-poor-in the-past" dreams... I hope this is legible, because English is my only second language. 

@jpwarren58 In relation to creating a Signal Path for a Cartridge produced Electrical Signal, to undergo Amplification, experience has has shown in relation to Phono Cable and Amplification the following items when used has been substantial in how the End Sonic is presented.  

Solid Copper Low Eddy Connectors used on both Cable Termination and Chassis along with a Silver content Solder will be a very good starting place to learn exactly what a Wire Type can bring to the sonic being produced. 

When the Wire Type of choice is discovered, extend the use of this Wire Type as a hook up wire for the amplification devices that enable it to be used. 

Modest is the word except maybe cabling for TT. They can be much more sensitive and certain better made cables can help. Though we should all graduate from zip cord and cheap rca’s.

Your polish guy is right in that on high end audio system a cable upgrade can be just as significant in SQ improvement as a new amp or cartridge or other major component.

On lesser mid fi audio equipment it may not help and may not be perceptible at all.

No different than, random analogy, putting good quality real cheese on a McDonalds burger to replace that stuff that can’t even legally be called cheese, won’t really help the burger and the burger eater would not even like it.

You appear to have at least an entry level high end system (I have not heard the speakers you have) and you will get benefit from a cable upgrade to a point. I would not go for expensive cables but mid level kimber kable or Cardas or audioquest or any of the other high end reputable brands. 

Can Less Expensive Electronics produce a Signal that is containing, as well as  preserves the Information offered up at the Source ?

Is all the Engineers embedded data, enabling the End Sonic to present their is the  perception of Detail, Micro Detail, Dynamics, Envelope, Coherence with a Balanced presentation across the entirety of the Frequency Range, to be discovered in the End Sound Using Less expensive Electronics?

In my experience Yes Yes Yes, but the chances of finding this using Off the Shelf - Turn Key Products will leave one with a Challenge to make such discoveries for a End Sound.

Where the experience will easily be discovered using Products that are Less Expensive is from the DIY Route, using established Kit Products produced by individuals who are adept with their EE Skill Set.

Signal Path Wire can be discovered in a variety of Cables from Branded - High End - High Price Ticket, through to much more affordable Cable containing the same Wire Type. 

If such Wire Type is known a DIY version of a Cable can be produced, offering a almost identical Signal Path to a Wire with any Price Tag sharing the same Wire.

In general a Wire in a Signal Path should get out the way and allow the Signal to be as accurate as the one produced.

Add Connectors to Cables, Add Solder, each choice will have an impact on the Signal Transferal to the Signal Path Wire.

Add Connectors on Chassis, Add Solder. Add Internal Hook Up Wire, think 'Less Expensive' these items will certainly be ones to take a hit in the allowance for a BOM.

Taking Control from Scratch and adding a improved allowance for the BOM where  Connector, Solder and Internal Hook Up Wire is a concern, will be a very good start to give a Wire Type selected as the Signal Path in a Cable an improved environment to deliver how the designers intended for it to function.  

 Reading reports made by myself on Neurochrome Amplification and PC Triple C Wire will expand on where my thoughts are coming from on the above post.   

Serblinfan

Some great comments already, and I'll only add my experience. Better cables can absolutely improve SQ, but only if the component is capable of taking advantage of the better cable.

Better cables can also make a system's SQ worse, if they are very revealing and the components are below the quality level of the cable. Better cables color the sound less, and usually are more transparent and more revealing....they will not hide any warts so to speak.

However if you are on the "never ending" upgrade path (as I am), my system tends to "grow into" the better cables as I upgrade components. I however do not own extremely high end cables, those costing thousands of dollars.

In hind sight, I would have upgraded my digital cables first; they gave the largest upgrades in SQ. From there interconnects and speaker cables were about equal, and lastly power cables......however they all made noticeable improvements.

Also pay attention to what type of cable you are using for a specific application, and use that type of topology. For digital components, is your equipment optimized for USB? AES/EBU? I2S? For XLR/RCA are your components fully balanced, or am I using a longer cable run that XLR would better suit.

Some companies optimize for a specific connection, and that is usually the preferred type to use. Pay attention to the limitations of a certain topology. Most DACS/DDCs/streamers will publish their specs on a specific connection.

I don't know if it's related to the length of the exhaust with the mid/rear engine mount or an intentional change, but the new C8 Corvettes don't sound as good as previous generations.  They have a more supercar sound, but it's the "Walmart" version.  I have yet to hear one that I appreciated, but I'm sure when they are opened up they likely sound great.

They all sound the same. You put all that snake oil fancy fairy dust exhaust systems on there and you are a money wasting fool. 

Sweet.  Cheers!

@fastfreight 

Hi guy, 

You’re right to some it did make a lot of noise but it was worth it. With the help of Butler Parts and my wallet that car noise and all was in the low 10’s in the quarter at 145+ miles an hour. It’s been a hobby as well as audio for years now. I don’t know what your twin turbo V6 did but the times I generated for a 4000 pound car I think it’s right up there. 
Cheers 

I think the new Corvette ZR1 is gonna have 1000hp.  Yikes.  I thought the Z06 was pretty sick as it is.  

@fastfreight - I knew that it was intended in good fun.  I just help myself when it comes to the underlying message of the humor.  There's always a grain of truth at the heart of most good humor.

I'm definitely in the camp of those that don't enjoy the sound of many of the modern engines.  A good sounding V8 new or old is hard to beat.  I don't know if it's related to the length of the exhaust with the mid/rear engine mount or an intentional change, but the new C8 Corvettes don't sound as good as previous generations.  They have a more supercar sound, but it's the "Walmart" version.  I have yet to hear one that I appreciated, but I'm sure when they are opened up they likely sound great.

Hello @mceljo,  I was just funning at @1971gto455ho about cables making no difference!  Probably should just keep my mouth shut, but said it in fun.  BTW amazing car!

I guess my obscure point was that we should NOT just all drive a Prius and use generic cables! :)  (no insult to Prius owners)

@fastfreight - I am not following your comparison between a great sounding V8 vs. a modern more powerful engine and audio cables. I think a better comparison within the audiophile world is that the sound of a V8 is part of the driving experience just like vinyl resonates for some even though modern digital gear can exceed it in many ways.

@jc4659 - I am not convinced that more expensive cables color the sounds less or the difference between the various cables would narrow as you moved up and that’s simply not the case. Iconoclast’s approach was to limit LCR and used a very engineering and science approach. I think most cable manufactures rely more on listening to make decisions so I would equate it in some ways to tube rolling where personal preference is the key. It appears that Cardas possibly tries to make their top cables more transparent while also recognizing that too transparent can have a negative result in a lower quality system. I will probably see what they will tell me about their approach.

+1 @soix 

If you believe that hi end cables make a difference then it stands to reason that the mediocre sound produced by mediocre equipment will be transferred to you much more efficiently allowing you to experience the mediocre sound so much more thoroughly and be disappointed so much more completely.

Let’s be clear here — the OP is being, to put it mildly, humble when he mentions “less expensive” electronics because his streamer/CD player/DAC retail for $17k so we’re not in a situation here where a better digital cable is going to be accentuating glaring shortcomings of mediocre equipment. Certainly at this level this is a case where experimenting with a better digital cable over even a good DIY cable is fully justified and would be irresponsible to not do so IMHO.

Also, the OP politely asked cable naysayers to abstain here because clearly he believes cables matter yet still you can’t help yourselves.  C’mon. 

High end cables will color the sound less than mediocre cables and let you hear what your up stream components are doing.  If you have decent components and mediocre cables then when you replace them with "better" cables you will hear the contributions of those components more accurately. In other words, the cables are more transparent to the signal going through them.  High end cables won't fix problems that are upstream but will let you hear them more accurately. I would start by building a system with better components and add higher end cables as budget allows. Trust your ears. You will know when it sounds right (see previous posts above).