Can hi-end cables benefit less expensive electronics?

I guess there are some misconceptions concerning silver cables. A poor silver cable can sound bright but a good one, like some top Siltech cables, for example, may sound sweet and beautiful. Not all silver is the same. And that’s also one of the reasons why I started this discussion with regard to digital cables as I’m not sure if Furutech’s silver wire they recommend for DIY digital is actually good enough. Somehow Furutech does not use silver for their top of the range digital cables....

Just a reminder that Transparent has many tiers. For me they all share the same characteristics of being very neutral and well, transparent. For me, after hundreds of hours of experimenting with many different brands of mainstream cables, to me these are the best for high end systems (systems that are synergistic and performing at a very high level… so, you want no tonal adjustment… just the sound of the components coming through). So, dedicating cabling as being Transparent of what ever tier is appropriate makes one’s life much easier and will give reliably outstanding results.

As one moves up from midfi to budget high end to high end component Cardas is probably the best choice ( they are warm, warmes in the lowest tier and most transparent at the highest level). For very high quality system Transparent can be the best choice. Then when over $50K per component (my components are not in this category) very careful comparison between Transparent and Nordost should be made… their top level are simply breathtaking.

Whenever I upgrade cables I always buy cables that are a bit of a stretch to what I can afford and better than my current components might indicate, so I’m always moving towards "better". I get the benefit of better sound immediately and I’m also future proofing my cables for later when I get better components.

Good cables will let your components perform at their best.
Poor quality cables will hamper their performance.

Most "high-end" cables are ridiculously overpriced and while they will,
no doubt, do a good job, most are a hype-driven rip off.

You can find some top quality cables that you can afford and use with the finest gear at: https://silversolids.com/

Simply put once you get to a certain level 

of quality from a reputable cable mfg with a track record

they are all good. The Cable Company is where I would start

Call Jason at The Cable Co. Your system will improve with good cabling and will allow you to upgrade components in the future without touching your cables

Good luck Willy-T

Hi-end cables won't even benefit hi-end equipment. So no. 

Absolutely get the best digital cable you can. I would pick a budget range - say $200 - $400 - and you will be amazed. Most people agree your digital source (especially the DAC) is the most important component you have, and transmitting the information TO the DAC is very important. I would recommend something like the Silnote Morpheus 111 Reference 111 to try out. 

Silnote Audio, Products (mcssl.com)

@johnnyotto

+1 Me to.

https://www.cardas.com/choosing-a-cable

This link from Cardas Audio addresses your question and provides their perspective.

@mceljo 

Good reference. Shows why Cardas can be great choices for many different systems. As far as I know Cardas is the only company that tries to be appropriate at different levels of component investment.

@squared80 +1. I recently upgraded my Wireworld cables to very high end AudioQuest with very minimal improvement in SQ.

Fairy dust, Diminishing returns Placebo sucks rendering the only wow factor being the ability to return product wearing that brown paper bag. 

kind of like all that noise out of say a 455 HO V8 compared to a modern twin turbo V6 with electric boost?  Just :)

Yeah, it is sort of crazy what they can get out of an engine these days.  I just bought a new vehicle with a V6 (non-electric) that has higher HP than the very cool 455HO V8, and many other hot engines from back in the day.

I have no idea what that has to do with cables except that vehicles cost more these days.

@skinzy that’s because Audioquest cables in general aren’t all that in my experience. I had their Thunder, Tornado and Hurricane PCs and didn’t like them in a long run. I do like their Diamond USB cable though.

Better value and performance can be obtained from Audience, Nordost and Acoustic Zen to name a few.

@audphile1 Would agree with Acoustic Zen recommendation.  I've been using their Absolute Speaker Cable for years now and very happy.  It's an old design that was done right.

@skinzy their Absolute Copper ICs are really good as well. I had pretty much the entire AZ line  

I now have Audience FrontRow speaker cables and they’re fantastic!

If you believe that hi end cables make a difference then it stands to reason that the mediocre sound produced by mediocre equipment will be transferred to you much more efficiently allowing you to experience the mediocre sound so much more thoroughly and be disappointed so much more completely.  

High end cables will color the sound less than mediocre cables and let you hear what your up stream components are doing.  If you have decent components and mediocre cables then when you replace them with "better" cables you will hear the contributions of those components more accurately. In other words, the cables are more transparent to the signal going through them.  High end cables won't fix problems that are upstream but will let you hear them more accurately. I would start by building a system with better components and add higher end cables as budget allows. Trust your ears. You will know when it sounds right (see previous posts above).

If you believe that hi end cables make a difference then it stands to reason that the mediocre sound produced by mediocre equipment will be transferred to you much more efficiently allowing you to experience the mediocre sound so much more thoroughly and be disappointed so much more completely.

Let’s be clear here — the OP is being, to put it mildly, humble when he mentions “less expensive” electronics because his streamer/CD player/DAC retail for $17k so we’re not in a situation here where a better digital cable is going to be accentuating glaring shortcomings of mediocre equipment. Certainly at this level this is a case where experimenting with a better digital cable over even a good DIY cable is fully justified and would be irresponsible to not do so IMHO.

Also, the OP politely asked cable naysayers to abstain here because clearly he believes cables matter yet still you can’t help yourselves.  C’mon. 

+1 @soix 

@fastfreight - I am not following your comparison between a great sounding V8 vs. a modern more powerful engine and audio cables. I think a better comparison within the audiophile world is that the sound of a V8 is part of the driving experience just like vinyl resonates for some even though modern digital gear can exceed it in many ways.

@jc4659 - I am not convinced that more expensive cables color the sounds less or the difference between the various cables would narrow as you moved up and that’s simply not the case. Iconoclast’s approach was to limit LCR and used a very engineering and science approach. I think most cable manufactures rely more on listening to make decisions so I would equate it in some ways to tube rolling where personal preference is the key. It appears that Cardas possibly tries to make their top cables more transparent while also recognizing that too transparent can have a negative result in a lower quality system. I will probably see what they will tell me about their approach.

Hello @mceljo,  I was just funning at @1971gto455ho about cables making no difference!  Probably should just keep my mouth shut, but said it in fun.  BTW amazing car!

I guess my obscure point was that we should NOT just all drive a Prius and use generic cables! :)  (no insult to Prius owners)

@fastfreight - I knew that it was intended in good fun.  I just help myself when it comes to the underlying message of the humor.  There's always a grain of truth at the heart of most good humor.

I'm definitely in the camp of those that don't enjoy the sound of many of the modern engines.  A good sounding V8 new or old is hard to beat.  I don't know if it's related to the length of the exhaust with the mid/rear engine mount or an intentional change, but the new C8 Corvettes don't sound as good as previous generations.  They have a more supercar sound, but it's the "Walmart" version.  I have yet to hear one that I appreciated, but I'm sure when they are opened up they likely sound great.

I think the new Corvette ZR1 is gonna have 1000hp.  Yikes.  I thought the Z06 was pretty sick as it is.  

@fastfreight 

Hi guy, 

You’re right to some it did make a lot of noise but it was worth it. With the help of Butler Parts and my wallet that car noise and all was in the low 10’s in the quarter at 145+ miles an hour. It’s been a hobby as well as audio for years now. I don’t know what your twin turbo V6 did but the times I generated for a 4000 pound car I think it’s right up there. 
Cheers 

Sweet.  Cheers!

I don't know if it's related to the length of the exhaust with the mid/rear engine mount or an intentional change, but the new C8 Corvettes don't sound as good as previous generations.  They have a more supercar sound, but it's the "Walmart" version.  I have yet to hear one that I appreciated, but I'm sure when they are opened up they likely sound great.

They all sound the same. You put all that snake oil fancy fairy dust exhaust systems on there and you are a money wasting fool. 

Serblinfan

Some great comments already, and I'll only add my experience. Better cables can absolutely improve SQ, but only if the component is capable of taking advantage of the better cable.

Better cables can also make a system's SQ worse, if they are very revealing and the components are below the quality level of the cable. Better cables color the sound less, and usually are more transparent and more revealing....they will not hide any warts so to speak.

However if you are on the "never ending" upgrade path (as I am), my system tends to "grow into" the better cables as I upgrade components. I however do not own extremely high end cables, those costing thousands of dollars.

In hind sight, I would have upgraded my digital cables first; they gave the largest upgrades in SQ. From there interconnects and speaker cables were about equal, and lastly power cables......however they all made noticeable improvements.

Also pay attention to what type of cable you are using for a specific application, and use that type of topology. For digital components, is your equipment optimized for USB? AES/EBU? I2S? For XLR/RCA are your components fully balanced, or am I using a longer cable run that XLR would better suit.

Some companies optimize for a specific connection, and that is usually the preferred type to use. Pay attention to the limitations of a certain topology. Most DACS/DDCs/streamers will publish their specs on a specific connection.

Can Less Expensive Electronics produce a Signal that is containing, as well as  preserves the Information offered up at the Source ?

Is all the Engineers embedded data, enabling the End Sonic to present their is the  perception of Detail, Micro Detail, Dynamics, Envelope, Coherence with a Balanced presentation across the entirety of the Frequency Range, to be discovered in the End Sound Using Less expensive Electronics?

In my experience Yes Yes Yes, but the chances of finding this using Off the Shelf - Turn Key Products will leave one with a Challenge to make such discoveries for a End Sound.

Where the experience will easily be discovered using Products that are Less Expensive is from the DIY Route, using established Kit Products produced by individuals who are adept with their EE Skill Set.

Signal Path Wire can be discovered in a variety of Cables from Branded - High End - High Price Ticket, through to much more affordable Cable containing the same Wire Type. 

If such Wire Type is known a DIY version of a Cable can be produced, offering a almost identical Signal Path to a Wire with any Price Tag sharing the same Wire.

In general a Wire in a Signal Path should get out the way and allow the Signal to be as accurate as the one produced.

Add Connectors to Cables, Add Solder, each choice will have an impact on the Signal Transferal to the Signal Path Wire.

Add Connectors on Chassis, Add Solder. Add Internal Hook Up Wire, think 'Less Expensive' these items will certainly be ones to take a hit in the allowance for a BOM.

Taking Control from Scratch and adding a improved allowance for the BOM where  Connector, Solder and Internal Hook Up Wire is a concern, will be a very good start to give a Wire Type selected as the Signal Path in a Cable an improved environment to deliver how the designers intended for it to function.  

 Reading reports made by myself on Neurochrome Amplification and PC Triple C Wire will expand on where my thoughts are coming from on the above post.   

Your polish guy is right in that on high end audio system a cable upgrade can be just as significant in SQ improvement as a new amp or cartridge or other major component.

On lesser mid fi audio equipment it may not help and may not be perceptible at all.

No different than, random analogy, putting good quality real cheese on a McDonalds burger to replace that stuff that can’t even legally be called cheese, won’t really help the burger and the burger eater would not even like it.

You appear to have at least an entry level high end system (I have not heard the speakers you have) and you will get benefit from a cable upgrade to a point. I would not go for expensive cables but mid level kimber kable or Cardas or audioquest or any of the other high end reputable brands. 

Modest is the word except maybe cabling for TT. They can be much more sensitive and certain better made cables can help. Though we should all graduate from zip cord and cheap rca’s.

@jpwarren58 In relation to creating a Signal Path for a Cartridge produced Electrical Signal, to undergo Amplification, experience has has shown in relation to Phono Cable and Amplification the following items when used has been substantial in how the End Sonic is presented.  

Solid Copper Low Eddy Connectors used on both Cable Termination and Chassis along with a Silver content Solder will be a very good starting place to learn exactly what a Wire Type can bring to the sonic being produced. 

When the Wire Type of choice is discovered, extend the use of this Wire Type as a hook up wire for the amplification devices that enable it to be used. 

Thank you all for the precious input. A very interesting discussion for me, and I'm humbled by the fact this is/was one of the most popular threads on Audiogon. I never expected that. If I buy an expensive digital coax (Metronome seems to favour coax), I will certainly add an honest opinion on whether this has been a change for the better, or for the worse. I'm tempted by the digital cable upgrades for two reasons, to be honest. Of course, I have some hopes of adding some sophistication to the sound of my digital setup, which doesn't really need adjustment sound-wide (and my other cables are already "hi-end" price wise and offering improvement, or at least not making things worse..). Here this stems from my belief (and intuition! ) that the digital link is really important and still not appreciated enough. The second thing... is my desire to own something special people rave about ;-) The second point might come to you as a surprising confession. I live in Poland, where money has always been an issue more than in most other places. As a student, I read about all those expensive brands people own, dreaming that one day I might also be able to afford it.  Now I know the price is not indicative of quality, but I guess I still have this desire to own something I could not afford in the past, even if this defies logic... And I always wanted the best ;-) I'm currently considering Transparent Digital Link XL or Siltech Golden Eagle Double Crown, both of wich I can get at nearly half the retail price. Admittedly, it's an effect of audiophilia nervosa... I am aware of it. Somebody suggested Audioquest Carbon as a good choice - I had this cable once and it was a really good cable, but I used it only to connect my Mac to the DAC in Metronome CD8. Not sure what I'm going to opt for in the end, but I will certainly let you know. It's quite likely I will victim of my "being-poor-in the-past" dreams... I hope this is legible, because English is my only second language. 

The above serves as a clarification that there are also personal psychological factors involved in my considerations... 

But overall, I guess this is a very interesting discussion, because there are many cable topics everywhere, but not much discussion particularly in the context ot buying top-of-the-line cables for not-at-all-top-of-the-line components. I really appreciate all the response I'm getting. 

Be interested to know your thoughts once you get a new cable.  And BTW, your English is excellent. 

The Link is to a Cable you may be encouraged to try out in conjunction with another Off the Shelf Cable.

I know individuals who have turned over £1000's on Cables to be tried out and are now settled with this Cable in the Link.

https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.aliexpress.com%2Fitem%2F1005005557893070.html%3FsrcSns%3Dsns_Copy%26spreadType%3DsocialShare%26bizType%3DProductDetail%26social_params%3D21468686885%26aff_fcid%3Df347f79dba24483ea333b772c3e769a1-1714283205193-08565-_mLytK7g%26tt%3DMG%26aff_fsk%3D_mLytK7g%26aff_platform%3Ddefault%26sk%3D_mLytK7g%26aff_trace_key%3Df347f79dba24483ea333b772c3e769a1-1714283205193-08565-_mLytK7g%26shareId%3D21468686885%26businessType%3DProductDetail%26platform%3DAE%26terminal_id%3D6d07792d7af74e5f89230082924f9bf3%26afSmartRedirect%3Dy&data=05%7C02%7C%7C9a94bf5e7e8e403224ee08dc679da4fa%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638499173988247239%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C0%7C%7C%7C&sdata=OnHHvi%2BhcXyjLpYDocLDwq7vTql%2Fnebib5oI1b179ws%3D&reserved=0

@soix, thank you!

@pindac, interesting, thank you.

FWIW, I just replaced the Transparent USB cable that came with my Innuos streamer with a WireWorld Platinum USB. This was close to a component upgrade in the change it made to my system. I am a big fan of OCC wire, and also favor Acoustic Zen. I have used the a AZ digital coax as well and it was excellent. 

@zlone If you can find a USB using PC Triple C Wire, my experience of this Cable used this Wire Type in the Signal Path at all other  Umbilical Interfaces is able to produce something extra to the end sound in comparison to a OCC Wire Type.

To keep it simple, in a variety of comparisons across different systems the OCC Wire Types used in the systems has been classed as veiled / coloured in comparison. PC Triple C has shown the Wire Type enables a deeper insight into the recording, with a perception the Soundstage has had a few puffs of air to increase the overall volume.

Investing in a length of Cable with PC Triple C Wire , Solid Copper USB connectors and Building Your Own Cables with PC Triple C, will produce a Cable designed to perform. Looking into Solid Copper USB Connectors for the Chassis will also be means to create an improved interface for the Umbilical connection.  

@pindac Thanks for the suggestion, I will take a look. Though I would be wary of trying to make my own USB, pretty fine work. 

There is enough to be seen in the Links to give an individual a boost in how they think about their creative skills.

The Helix Design is not to be overlooked either, an adventurous type might make a conventional and Helix just to see ?

l have also included a few Off the Shelf designs for the Cable Type as well. 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131150991198?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-153316-527457-8&mkcid=2&itemid=131150991198&targetid=4584757337008490&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=&poi=&campaignid=431353847&mkgroupid=1298523655396099&rlsatarget=pla-4584757337008490&abcId=9301942&merchantid=87779&msclkid=40cbff4e23801cc2c02399f8d712be47

https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/japan/en/special/order/confirm/audio9:10004914/2_1/

https://www.image99.net/blog/files/category-002ahelix-image-usb-cable.html

https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/japan/en/special/order/confirm/edion:10676754/2_1/

https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/japan/en/special/order/confirm/tantan:13282717/2_1/

I recently upgraded my family room system (Ayre AX-5 “Teenty” integrated amp, Aurender A30 Streamer, Sonus Faber Guarneri Evolution & REL S/2) with AudioQuest Thunderbird interconnects, Nordost Frey 2 & Tyr 2 power cables and Frey 2 Speaker cables.  Major improvements in clarity, / resolution, singing and soundstage.  My wife also noticed the improvements.  I love the music even more post cable upgrades.  No need to upgrade any components. 

* … resolution / imaging and soundstage … 

@serblinfan good thread.  Yes, excellent cables can generally help any system, and I generally error on the higher percentage of system investment in cables.  ALSO, my experience with gear several rungs down from your kit is that there is a big difference between sound of different digital cables, and that you will do yourself a disservice if you do not try several different cable brands and designs in your system in your listening room to see which works best for you.

I did somewhat exhaustive test of digital coax cables with an earlier permutation of my main system and the results were that I ended up buying a coax cable that in its current iteration retails for more than half the list cost of my streamer and DAC combined, with zero regrets.

if interested, you can read about my experience in this thread.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/yes-digital-cables-matter-too
 

kn

If you have a poor source on one end sending a signal to poor amplification and then out to ill sounding speakers, I’m not sure how having nifty interconnects and power cords makes any of it sound good 

@knownothing Thank you for your interesting post. By the way, anyone has tried the Hijiri Million digital cable? I can see some conflicting opinions on forums, mostly very positive. Some warn it’s not the best cable for a system on the neutral/cool side. I wonder how it would sound in my system. Expensive, but still cheaper than top cables from brands such as Transparent or Siltech.