Can anyone hear the difference when you add REL subwoofers when playing two channel

Referencing the HL amp connection.  Tracks amp output identical to mains.  Many use RCA OR XLR LL connections.  Never use speaker / sub crossovers on subwoofer...gah!  It’s slick, musical and can go wirelessly.  REL emphasis has always been on 2 channel audio and musical support, not sound effects.

Maybe he's not referring to the Speakon plug itself, but the efficacy of the REL "high level" input design. I'm a fan of the angled Speakon because, a. They keep the cables better sorted (whatever THAT means) and, 2. They're made in Liechtenstein. I terminate the speaker end of the Canare Star Quad cables I use for the subs with spades (bare wires? I'm not an ANIMAL), and pile the 
leads on the speaker posts (one for each negative terminal and two on each hot terminal for identical signals to each REL). The main speaker's amp end of the cables are high quality (ripened) bananas that fit the terminals perfectly. Remember, shrink wrap for cable finishing is your friend.

OK, gotcha both.

Speakon’s are so well made for years I’ve dreamed of a replacement for the IEE female end of power cables. The majority of my PA snake, monitor, and Bass rig cabling is DIY Canare with Speakon terminations, dependable gear.


Dave, when we did our half baked sub comparison we eventually did over think the beautifully made Studio III. We relocated the sub from out of the corner and set it on its side then fed it processed equalization via low level RCAs from the DD Velodyne. The overwhelming consensus was that it dramatically improved its integration and presentation, demonstrating its weakness wasn’t so much a lack of amplifier power rather the lack of modern sub setup and technology. As I mentioned earlier despite the improvement its owner let it go.

Low level connection sucks.  No sub should be in a corner...ever!!  Even with mains (just outside or inside speaker position) facing out or perpendicular along plain of main speakers .  Sometimes near listener/ behind works but that’s more for HT.  I can hear subs if not integrated to the plain of the mains.  2 is ideal but one can do wonders as well.

Dave_b2:

I wish I could send you a picture of my living room to show you how my system fits into the room.  There is only about 3 feet between the left and right walls (perpendicular to the front wall) and my long stereo cabinet.  If I would put two subs next to the towers, I would have to move my towers a little closer together (currently spaced 8 ft across) and put the subs between the towers and the outside walls.

I have also been talking to a highly regarded speaker manufacturer and he thinks the Rythmik subs to be far superior to the REL.  If the REL T/9i's are rated at 28 Hz -6 db, he said they would be lucky to play down to 35 Hz.  He said this is woofer territory not subwoofer territory.

If I do that, Rythmik makes their E15HP and a F12 Signature.  What size would you go with.

And the saga moves on!

If size is a factor you should do the F12, otherwise why not plumb 10Hz territory with the F15 (although I think F12 can get close). These bad boys can even do high level connection like the REL, just doesn't terminate with the speak on connector. 

To bstatmeister:

Sounds like you like Rythmik.  Their Servo system seems interesting.  The owner of Rythmik told me the REL's won't provide the kind of bass extension their subs can deliver.  Another speaker manufacturer said the REL T/9i's will be lucky to play down to 35 Hz.  I certain songs play a lower Hz levels, these will not be able to play those frequencies.

I really like Rythmik's price to performance ratio. You can get a really substantial, musical sub woofer for right around 1k. I think you can get a REL that digs super deep, but would have to pay thousands more. REL looks terrific - furniture grade stuff right there.

My RELs were found on Ebay a year or so apart for 200 bucks each in excellent condition working perfectly. Lucky score I admit, (and a few years ago)...still...worth looking around as they show up from time to time, especially the Q108MKII.

Unless you have a large room I would stay away from the lower end REL subs for a 2 channel music system. The S5's on down, I believe all use a downward facing passive radiator which helps the sub achieve lower frequencies and deliver a nice rich fat tone but it can also create definition issues in the low mids and can be . REL's also do not have any phase control, just a polarity switch. Phase control is very useful if you have two or more subs. I would also recommend using a very good crossover but most audiophiles have a very strong aversion to them even though a good crossover with time alignment capabilities can do amazing things for your soundstage.

As far as room placement any reputable sub manufacturer should have placement information on their websites including REL. I would also check out Soundoctor.com for highly detailed information about subwoofers and their placement.

Too much thinking again...naughty naughty!  Less talk More fun REL NOW

Would any good card carrying audiophile introduce one of these high pass filters into the signal chain if they want to off load some of the heavy lifting of the amp? What I might end up doing if I can't find 2 used Vandy 2wqs (with X-over), is to mimic the Vandersteen method but without paying the Vandersteen prices. (New SUB 3 just too much unfortunately).

Thinking is to get the HSU x-over:
http://hsuresearch.com/products/high-pass-filter.html
And pair it with a Rythmik F12
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12.html

Could this sound as good as a SUB 3 or maybe even surpass it?

What are your thoughts?

I have finally made my decision.  After a lot of research, I am going with two F12 Signature Rythmik subwoofers.  The owner I talked to at Rythmik explained the way a REL T/9i is designed.  REL claims this subwoofer  can get down to 28 Hz.  They test their subwoofers at -6 db.  In reality, they are really lucky to get down to 35 Hz.  This is subwoofer territory.  Orchestras get down way lower.  Rythmik on the other hand tests their subwoofers at -3 db.

The owner from Rythmik also said he sells direct because he is not willing to compromise the quality of their drivers and cross overs.  In reality, the cost to build a REL is only about $500.  REL manufactures their subwoofers off shore and they use the lowest bidder to manufacture them.  The difference is Rythmik concentrates on the reverberation of sound and that is why their F12 Signature can get down to a bass extension of 14 Hz.  This does not mean they are boomy.  They are just able to seamlessly create bass extension without the listener detecting the subwoofer has been added to the system.  

I like most of us probably have not heard much about Rythmik because they sell direct and do not advertise.  REL on the other hand advertises extensively.  They can afford to do so because they have a lot more profit margins to be able to afford to do so.

The problem with Rythmik is you either listen to them at audio shows or you have to take a leap of faith to buy them without hearing them.  However, when you talk to Brian at Rythmik, you can tell he understands sound at a much higher level.  I compare him to the knowledge Jim Salk has.  These two individuals are the real McCoy's.  Both develop their speakers to create an extremly flat sound curve.

The bottom line is, if I honestly cannot hear a noticeable difference when a REL sub is plugged in, why bother to spend the money.  I want to be able to hear all the frequencies a recording delivers to a speaker.  I want to it all not just what a speaker is capable of reproducing.  If the T/9 REL can only deliver 35 Hz and the recording delivers a bass extension to 14 Hz, the RELL stops at 35 Hz and the Rythmik can deliver the sound the recording was designed to deliver.  I am glad I didn't make another mistake with my next purchase.  At least I have a 45 day period to decide the Rythmik speakers do what they claim they can do and return them if they don't.  What do I have to lose?  At least this will give me an opportunity to hear how they sound compared to the REL. 

I am sure I will hear some interesting responses.  However, have they heard a Rythmik to compare?

I appreciate everyone's input.  You all are more knowledgeable than me that's for sure and I am grateful to learn from all of you.  

Great choice! Please let us know your thoughts after getting some time with them. Very interested in what you think (as I may be going down the same path). What's the lead time for delivery?

To  bstatmeister:

They have them in stock.  You need to talk to the owner Brian.  He knows sound and he created his speakers to hear the space and the full bass extension in recordings without sounding boomy.  Check them out.  I think you will make your decision after talking to him.

Sounds like Larry is trying to get a job at Rythmik...

kind of lame that this turned into a rel bashing thread.

i’ve heard plenty of Rel’s that sounded great...

“In reality, the cost to build a REL is only about $500. REL manufactures their subwoofers off shore and they use the lowest bidder to manufacture them.”

“REL on the other hand advertises extensively. They can afford to do so because they have a lot more profit margins to be able to afford to do so.”

b_limo,

It certainly seems that way! As I recall, someone commented about Rythmik parts quality and the owner (Brian) went out of the way to challenged the poster. It’s a shame that OP picks one model out of the entire lineup and since T/9 won’t go down to 14Hz, he drags down the brand by dissing the corporate business model.

BTW, REL offers 60 days home trial and free returns plus 120 days price protection.

I have 3 Rythmik subs and am a fan, but if Brian was indeed bashing his competitors in that way, it's unfortunate.  Speak to your strengths and what differentiates you from your competition, yes.  Bash your competition - in my opinion that's un-called for and unbecoming.

I've never owned a Rel, but I've heard them in a couple of nice systems and was impressed.  We have a music club that meets at a local audio store and there's usually a smaller (10"? - not sure which model) Rel in the system and it has done a nice job filling out the bottom end in a large showroom paired up with Klipsch La Scalas, Tannoy Canterburys, along with some higher end Paradigm speakers.  

We met recently at one of our member's homes and he has one Rel (again, not sure which model) and a JL Audio sub and it was some of the punchiest bass I've heard, very dynamic and lifelike.  He has done some pretty extensive room treatment - bass traps in the corners, and diffusion and absorption panels, which I'm sure contributed to the quality of the bass and overall sound.

Not having ever had a chance to compare them in my home, this may be off base, but what the Rels seem to do well is the upper bass frequencies and to be very "tight", "punchy", and "dynamic".  I feel like the Rythmik's give you more of the tactile sensation of listening to live music while still being tuneful and musical.  I do think the Rythmik subs provide excellent value for the money, which may be in large part due to their internet direct model. 

Having said that, SVS has great products at reasonable prices and they seem to be doing well having a mixed distribution model - both internet direct and through dealers.  It seems that it is possible to build quality products and build in enough profit margins for dealers to make some money reselling them..

Big_Greg:

Brian was not bashing the competition.  He was just explaining the profit margins build into their business model.  Because they sell direct, they can afford to use much higher quality components.

He concentrates on the reverberation delivered by their subs.  This he said is where you can really hear all of the frequencies a recording can deliver.  If you buy a sub that can only extend down to 35 Hz, any lower frequencies present in a recording will be lost as it will not play below the 35 Hz information in the recording.

Brian said REL makes a good product, but they are designed more like a woofer than a subwoofer which can go lower and fill the space completely.  Wonder what you like about your Rythmik's.

b_limo,

I was not bashing REL.  All I can say I just could not hear much of a difference when adding a REL to the mix.  I was expecting to go wow when I heard the REL, but they sure didn't immediately think they were worth the money.  If you can't hear a difference, why waste the money.  Just because many like REL doesn't mean everyone should.  

Sorry if I offended anyone.  This was not my intention.  I just think a subwoofer should absolutely knock you off your feet and be noticeably different when added.  

Im sure Rythmik subs are great, so are many others.  

I think which size sub, how many you get, where you place them, how you integrate / set them up (crossover, phase, volume), most importantly your room size / shape / acoustic properties all play a huge role.  Bass Traps and acoustic panels play big big roles.  I’ve also noticed that subs sound way better on concrete slab in basements.

Execution will get you far in this hobby. Thats part or what makes it fun.

Listening to as many other enthusiasts systems will give you a good basis for what sounds good.  I’m sure there are many $50,000 systems out there that don’t sound as good as a properly setup $15,000 system....

IMHO, the whole point of adding in subs is to extend the bottom end response, the ease of the system to fill the room, the ability to extend the soundstage and to aid in the main speaker’s ability in the mids and top end. If you can hear the contribution of the sub, then IME something s wrong! In my system, using two(2) REL subs...it took almost a month to dial them in to the point that they are seamless with the mains, and simply supply that extra something I mentioned above.
Personally, in my room I don’t want a sub that calls attention to itself in anyway...and the REL"s do exactly that...once dialed in they are totally seamless. Luckily the REL’s are one of a few subs that actually do allow for this aspect...
You want to hear the sub???---YMMV.

I think he just wants to hear information below 35hz when it's present. I think we can all agree that integration with the mains is of the utmost importance

I was not bashing REL. All I can say I just could not hear much of a difference when adding a REL to the mix. I was expecting to go wow when I heard the REL, but they sure didn't immediately think they were worth the money. If you can't hear a difference, why waste the money.

This is a great attitude, but I do want to say this: There are many great subs that when well integrated will knock your knickers off.  From everything you have described, these subs were not well integrated/

Jim Salk builds the Rythmik Servo-Feedback Sub into his higher-priced speaker models. He also offers subs that feature enclosures of his own design and build, into which he installs the Rythmik DIY kit. The enclosures are the best designed and built I’ve ever seen, with extensive bracing, far better than those of Rythmik themselves. They are also beautifully finished in real wood veneers.

Erik makes a good point.  I would also say that the idea behind adding an REL for example, to any 2 channel system, is for augmentation.  If you are a music lover and can hear textures, nuance and atmosphere on recordings, then that is what the REL will enhance.  Kind of like the approach Walter uses with the Maggie bass panels.  If Your noticing the sub in any obvious way, then it is not well integrated.

@larry5729  When I bought my first Rythmik sub (a used F15) what immediately stood out was how well controlled and "tight" the bass was and how well it blended into the music.  No "boominess" like most of the other subs I had owned up until that time.  It didn't hurt that I got a nice deal buying it used and that the warranty was transferrable.  

Rythmik Sounds like a value but I really like the Speakon High Level connection on REL!  Line level just doesn’t get the best from the amp and I’m certainly not going to screw up my mains sound by going through their crossover:().   If I had extra LL out XLR’s on my amp maybe?  But then I would need commensurately good IC’s.  I had a custom Speakon cable made for a reasonable price, but an equivalent set of XLR’s for me would be $1400!

Rythmik has high level connections, though. You don't have to use their internal high-pass filter. You can connect them exactly like the RELs (sans speakon connection, just use bananas)

Thanks dave_b2 and big_greg.

I think you both hit the nail on the head.  I might listen to the REL's one more time before making my decision.  Everyone who I have talked to says the REL subwoofers are very musical.  The biggest fear I have is the Rythmik might be too bassy.  It was encouraging to hear the F12 Rythmik's sound good and not boomy.

I wonder how the REL T/9i's perform with home theater.  However, I don't need to hear the windows in my house break to hear sound affects.  My primary reason for adding subwoofers is to hear more of what was recorded.  The one song that stands out is MIchael Wollney's song Little Person.  The first time I heard it I was blown away by the long extended bass in the background.  It just seemed to drop through the floor.  I just need to be careful that will not break up the floor and sound artificial.

I really appreciate everyone's responses.  You are all so helpful and knowledgeable.  Wow.......there is so much to learn as a beginner.  I have already made some mistakes starting out.  It started by wanting to turning our museum, the living room, into a room we would use more than twice a year.  I thought it would be nice to turn it into a room where we could hear music and HT.  We already have a surround sound system in the family room.  However, the family room layout can only allow for the TV to be placed in the corner.  There is not room to position left and right front speakers on either side of the TV, so I needed to put them on the adjacent wall to the right of the TV.  The living room is configured much better to set up the speakers in the right place to image better.  When deciding to turn our living room into a music room/home theater, I wanted to find either a receiver or amplifier that could do both 2 channel and HT.  I didn't know how to have a true 2 channel amplifier and surround sound system to easily switch back and forth easily.  A true 2 channel amplifier was no doubt the best choice for 2 channel.  I listened to a lot of tower speakers before buying my Paradigm Prestige 85F towers.  I liked the sound, but after my friend sent me an article discussing how a 3 way speaker design is better than a 3 way, I felt I made a big mistake by buying the speakers I did.  The Martin Logan Motion 60's ribbon tweeters sounded too harsh and the Bowers & Wilkins 804's lacked bass extension.  So did the Focal Aria's.  I wanted to buy speakers that were known to be recognized in the audiophile world.  However, what speakers are audiophile and what speakers are junk.

The one thing I have discovered in this group is everyone is searching for the perfect sound they can afford.  However, I am learning by the time you add an expensive DAC, an expensive turn table, speaker cable, you have dropped a lot of cash.  All this is fine if you have a wife that allows you to spend the money and who is passionate about music.

I wish I had joined this group before I jumped in because I think you all would have pointed me in the right direction to avoid the mistakes.

Thanks to all.  You are all so generous with your time to share your knowledge.

Although, I do like the idea of off-loading woofer duty from the mains amp (up to 80Hz). Currently I am looking for a cheap but great high pass filter - so far, a couple folks have told me to buy a resistor and a capacitor to build one myself, DIY style, but I might prefer an already made solution. If anyone has any ideas please let me know...

Absolutely an improvement from my experience if done right. 

I don't think you have anything to worry about as far as the Rythmik being "too bassy".  It's only going to sound that way if you have the volume and crossover set too high.  I would consider the F12 as an entry level sub.  You may find down the road you want to add another one (or 2 or 3) or step up to something with more output, depending on the size of your room, how well it integrates, and how much bass you want.  

@m-db

It’s the same as using high level inputs. There is no “magic”. The claim is that unlike a line level connection (RCA), the SpeakOn method allows for the subwoofer’s signal to have the same sound characteristics that is being fed to the speaker. However, it’s pretty silly, what that means is you are thus amplifying a signal that already has been amplified, so it has lots of distortion/harmonics/noise, rather than amplifying a much cleaner signal.

Hi mzkmxcv,

Could you explain your response?  Are you saying the SERVO technology Rythmik is using does not make sense and it will cause distortion?  Jim Salk sure doesn't think so.  There is a reason why he has partnered with Rythmik.  He thinks they work remarkably well and they will provide significantly greater  amounts of bass extension.  In reality, the REL T/9i will be lucky to play down to 35 Hz, but the Rythmik will be able to play down to 14 Hz.  If you are playing a recording that plays lower than 35 Hz, then you will not be able to hear all the frequencies the song was recorded at.  I want to hear everything I can the way a song is recorded.  REL and Rythmik have two different approaches.  However I talked to both Jim Salk and Brian at Rythmik I feel Rythmik will be the right choice.  When I buy something, I want to say WOW and not have to question myself when I can't hear much of an added difference.  Again, if the Rythmik sounds like a boom box, I have 30 days to return them for full refund.  SVS has this same policy, which I feel is very fair.

Let me know what you think after you talk to Brian.  Don't listen to his sales person because he did not design their subwoofers.

You might want to call Brian, owner, of Rythmik.  I think after you talk to him you will realize how much he knows about sound and especially bass extension.  

I really appreciate your hanging in there with me.  I think we will all agree we have all been at a crossroads when looking to achieve better sound quality.  I just wish I had the deep pockets some of you have.  You also must have very understanding wives.  Here is another subject unto it's own.  Why is it there are very few women involved in this hobby.  I know of one in this group and I am so grateful for her to be among us.

Larry, mzkmxcv was talking about the connectors Rel uses, not the Rythmik servo technology. 

I had a two channel system with Magnepan MG12s  I added a single REL sub and you could most certainly hear the difference.  Of course the MG12s don't have much below about 45 Hz, so in my opinion a sub was mandatory.  It took me awhile to get that system set up just right.

I still don't know what mzkmxcv is trying to say.  From what Rythmik told me all you need are two RCA cables (one for each sub) which would allow the sub to work with LFE when viewing movies automatically.  Rythmik told me I can purchase the RCA subwoofer cables through Amazon for about $12 to $15.  They said buying more expensive RCA cables are not necessary because I would not appreciate any improved sound quality for purchasing more expensive cables. 

The REL T9i amplifier is a Class AB not a Class A as one person mentioned.
300 watts Class A would heat up the room pretty well. And run up the electric bill!
Almost all production subwoofers use either Class AB or Class D amplifiers.

Quote:
 I've experienced the affects of cable differences in my systems but I'm at a loss here. After my experience with a REL sub I don't mean to challenge your statement, rather to understand your experience.
Could you explain how a cable with a Speakon termination at one end and bare wire termination at the other end makes a difference let alone a huge difference with music (two channel?) but not home theater?

The Speakon connector is for convenience and is impossible to hook up backwards. It is not an "enhancement" technology,  just a connector.!

larry5729 OP374 posts05-11-2019 10:44amI still don't know what mzkmxcv is trying to say. From what Rythmik told me all you need are two RCA cables (one for each sub) which would allow the sub to work with LFE when viewing movies automatically. Rythmik told me I can purchase the RCA subwoofer cables through Amazon for about $12 to $15. They said buying more expensive RCA cables are not necessary because I would not appreciate any improved sound quality for purchasing more expensive cables.

The construction of the RCA cable (or any other cable) will make a difference for the subwoofer. Some have better bass than others. No need to spend high dollar, but some types just have better bass.

late to party here

answer - YES huge

Quote from Larry... “I have finally made my decision. After a lot of research, I am going with two F12 Signature Rythmik subwoofers”

What did he end up with? 2 REL S3’s, lol.

Maybe he could answer his own original question!  Hey Larry, can you actually hear a difference?

And by the way, Rel T9i’s can llay really friggin’ low.  Not below 35hz is a joke

I believe I do.  I have two REL S2 SHO subs.  It sounds even and seamless.  This allows you to play them down in volume and to blend in.  The object is to never detect a subwoofer in a system.

What a joke of a thread.  So he ended up buying REL anyway?  🤣

Resurrecting old thread. I wonder what made OP not give Rythmik a chance? I’m asking because I’m considering REL myself.

Too funny after all that. I have a couple of great older RELs, B1 and Storm III, and i have heard the 'air' added to Eva Cassidy's (bass-less) "Fields of Gold" track. It is audible and wonderful!

I also have SVS SB-3000 and it is superb, despite the low cost. Probably better than the old B1 in fact. But with my Raidho D2s going flatly to almost 30Hz on their own (no head-banging volumes) I still have the B1 hooked up but mostly turned off these days.  I have two SB-2000s for home theater and they were a steal at the $500 close-out pricing.

i have an old friend that can’t hear any difference when two rel subs are inserted into my system under proac tablette 2000’s

i like him a lot, he is great cook, but then again, he is deaf 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣