Some people prefer more wall of sound with just a tad of sound stage definition. Or he might mean to detailed. I am like you, prefer a well defined sound stage with imagines solidly placed across the front of the room with depth. Love it when something sounds even further back than the front wall like on the other side of it. Yes with the focus dead center between the speakers if that is the way it is supposed to sound based on the mix. Of course not all mixes are capable of sound stage spread this expansive but when it occurs it’s heaven.
Can a system sound too Holographic?
Hi friends :)
So I got a question for those interested. For me, having a 2 channel system with a Holographic soundstage is very desirable.
I bring this up because I had lent some Centerstage 2 footers ( isolation devices) to a friend to try out. To make a long story short, he likes what they are doing under his Lumin T3, however he mentioned that it might be "Too Holographic". I don't know about you guys and gals, but that wouldn't really be a problem for me. Your thoughts or experiences please. Anyone experience a soundstage that was too Holographic?
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I get wanting a home system to have the clarity and dynamics of live music, but it is rare to hear a live concert that sounds great unless in a specifically designed music venue. Ive been to more concerts than not that are boomy, too echoy, etc. As I posted previoisly my Carver pre amp has a sonic holograghy function that helps expand music all around the speskers.. I have read about some high end systems that naturally do this, but since my budget is limited I make the best of what I have. |
A system CANNOT be too holographic... Holograhy does not means artificial and unnatural audio trick AT ALL... It is an acoustic concept related to the way the acoustic recording trade-off album is well or not so well translated in the acoustic room of the listener ( a dedicated room or a living room)... You confused and conflated two completely different things here : the live listening of a spectator in some specific location In the theater and the location of the recording microphones trade-off... We want what is possible and real: the specific recording choices to be perceived through our speakers/ room relation.. You want something which is impossible: the recreation of a specific listener impression in a concert... There is no relation between a listener location in the music Hall and the recording microphones CHOICES by the engineer..
When we listen a GOOD recording the soundfield impression must be on par with the best listener possible location but cannot be the same by acoustic definition... ( For example one mic recording technique with "Sound Liaison" company albums is so good that it recreate well a very good listener location in a real event) In most live event the soundfield will be less good than on a very good recordings... The only advantage of a live event most of the times is not the ACOUSTIC conditions, but the artist magical real presence...
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@drbarney1 +1 absolutely! Three channel recording of orchestra provides the best orchestral sound reproduction. |
I wanted more holographic sound despite having two pairs of Shakti Hallographs. I purchased a GIK Q7D quadradic diffuser for the center mount between the speakers front wall and that made the soundstage pop from center as well as spread the sound for centerfill-EXCEPT in recordings, particularly 50s stereo jazz and pop where they were recorded left and right and no middle or just one instrument in the middle (Kessel in trio on Contemporary, or just right and left as in Command Percussion pop LPs). One of the two major reasons I want to replace my speakers is to obtain an out of the speaker sound and the other to obtain wide seating dispersion/imaging. I have basically a one person speaker. Von Schweikert is the opposite of dispersion compared to Duntech/Dunleavy/Legacy Focus speakers (the latter of which I have along with a much better dispersion speaker Legacy Signature IIIs). |
In the 1930's Bell Labs determined that the best simulate the sound of an orchestra in a concert hall with proper acoustics, there should be three channels, the center channel playing the sum of right and left channels. Magnepan did listening tests with untrained audiences who preferred the sound of an orchestra in three channels. A center channel which has buffered inputs from the left and right channels is the way to do this. |
A sounfield must be coherent... And the cables and amplifier and speaker help for the holography indeed , but a coherent holography is an ACOUSTIC phenomenon FIRST AND LAST coming if the speakers/room is optimized... ....Not a disturbing artefact... But we can create artificial holography for sure, a compaqny i will not name sell devices that do that artificial "holographical sound effect" i am not interested by that kind of "tweaks"...I am in mechanical room acoustic or electronic BACCH filters which are natural recreation of the recording soundstage in a "virtual room holography " with no degradation of timbre instruments... if someone do not want to tune his room to create a natural holography, the Cgoeri BACCH filters do that and IT IS NOT ARTIFICIAL TRICK...Read about it... |
In 1980 I was so impresssed with a demo of Bob Carver's Sonic Holography pre amp, I drained my savings, bought the c4000 pre & M400 cube amp. Still use the pre amp. Just sold the cube. Replaced with a great Odyssey amp. To me its like the differance between mono and stereo. I do turn it off for some genres like old jazz or a single singer and guitar, but prog rock, synth, electronic, etc music can be immersing. So my answerer to OP, yes it may not suit some music styles, but it can be great for others. By the way my speakers are Magnepan 1.7is which on their own create a nice openess. Polk made speakers back in the 1990s, 2000s? They used a 3rd cable "interconnect" between them. They definatelty created a big soundstage / holographic effect.
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Yes, it is like everything else in music. Through a bit of tuning, the system is now on the verge of too holographic, such that the artifacts are occasionally a distraction. Not muted or distorted. When you have a bell, or percussion instrument protruding into the room about 5 feet, it can take away from the music and just be distracting. If it was not on the recording, it would not be there. It is not just noise. A cable upgrade got it there, and now it is pretty interesting when the artifacts happen. I like it when things are tuned to the edge (optimal). I could get one more of the cable set in my system, and it would likely push it over the top. Not going there. I remember someone telling me that their system was so resolving that they could hear the drummer fart. Not really interested in that, so best to keep it inaudible in the background.... |
For the ear (a) and (b) the speakers 1 and 2 do not present the same distance from one another, we can metaphorically with the term holography in physics transpose it in listening experience where we use the ear (a) and the brain computing indirect sound wave (b) and direct soundwave (a) alternatively and reciprocally (as the light wave of reference in an hologram ) from the reference wave incoming from speakers 1 and speakers 2 by a time differential delay ( the interference pattern in physics) different for each ear; and vice versa for ear(b)... This complex computing by the brain recreate holographic information VOLUME of the sound sources who become more than a point, a line or a mere surface,... This is why the sounfiekld of speakers/room and from top headphone illustrate 3 characteristics of the SOUNDFIELD and not the traditional well known two : -- imaging differentiation from the sound sources in relation with each other -- Soundstaging integrating three dimensions in some GLOBAL stage , which can be fixed in less performant and artificial design or in a bad acoustic room but which are normally highly recording dependant for their dimensions size ... ---Holographical definition of EACH sound surces in his own dynamical VOLUME of space... The sound sources are no more a plane but a perceived 3-d relief an outline.. |
Holographic relates to a hologram. Hologram is a three-dimensional image reproduced from a pattern of interference produced by a split coherent beam of radiation (such as a laser) Holography is a technique that enables a wavefront to be recorded and later re-constructed. Holography is best known as a method of generating real three-dimensional images, but it also has a wide range of other applications. In principle, it is possible to make a hologram for any type of wave, By by From Holographic you can find oligarch and hoopla. |
(....well, 'that' wasn't me... *looking at the chasm...*) @nonoise ....*S*👍 Precisely....or as close as one can inch towards... Haven't gotten a lap dance nor brushed by a loose lead guitar string at necks' end yet, but have gotten the balance of the band to 'get offstage' and stay put... ...but it's nice to have goals....*G* @mapman ...and there are worse places to find oneself, no? ;) Haven't seen those standmount mbls'....gotta go on a wander.... This caught my muse as a mate for my loose amts', tho'.... ...love the smaller things of life...and no, not 'that'....*L* The first ESS speakers I heard, so very long ago....had an oval woofer... The more things change....'n all that.... *s* |
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For all the mbl fans out there these days they have a pair of standmounts that the magazines recently raved about for only ~ 22K. Probably all one needs in most rooms. That is a tad less than a pair of new KEF Blade metas.
These two are probably my top choices at present if someday I decide to go nuts and attempt a change from my current $6500 retail in 2008 Ohm F5 series 3, but neither are as adjustable to any room as the Ohm 5s so there is that limitation. Then again I don’t know of any others that are so I may be stuck forever. |
@roxy54 👍 |
I was tempted to say as much earlier but skipped it. Too many here think "holographic" is a proper soundstage with nothing amiss. That's not what holographic is. Imagine a room filing recreation right up to your position with solid, stable images placed around the soundstage that if you were to close your eyes, it would seem as if they were actually in the room, not virtually. All the best,
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In the visual world a holograph is typically something that has 3 dimensionality in appearance, but is also somewhat ethereal, lacking solidness. You can partially see through it. It’s obviously has no substance. My idea of something sounding too holographic would be sound that lacks fullness, solidness. What comes to mind for me is some piezo compression drivers I tried years ago. They sounded magical in a way that was hard to describe. Ethereal and holographic were words that came to my mind. These were on large horns and went all the way down to 800 Hz. When I ran a sweep and measured I saw that they had an average flat response from 800 Hz to 20 kHz but there were lots of narrow but very deep notches in the response if you turned off the smoothing. Those sounded too holographic to me. With some standard compression drivers the response without smoothing had no notches, and sounded very solid. Most people don’t use drivers with deep notches in their response. But we do end up with notched response at our ears due to crosstalk between left and right channels, and early reflections. More notches that aren’t so deep are going to produce a fuller sound than a few very deep notches. I think I can always hear the lack of solidness with a 2 channel phantom center. The best way to deal with it is to break up the strongest early reflections into multiple smaller reflections, and delay them if possible. Breaking up the center of the wall between the speakers with a center treatment of some kind that causes diffraction will bounce some sound straight back from the middle of the room to the listener, helping to lessen the effect and make a more solid center image. If you listen to a 2 channel system in an anechoic environment, sounds that are panned to one speaker or the other will have much more solidity than sounds panned to the center. When done effectively, inter-aural crosstalk reduction can very noticeably solidify the center image, giving it near equal solidity to left and right panned images. A properly set up multi-channel system playing appropriately mixed content should sound much less holographic (my definition) and more solid and clear across the entire sound stage. The inter-aural crosstalk is the worst offender because it happens nearly instantly across the head, about .5ms. Later reflections that come from other directions are much easier for our brain to tease apart. |
There is Zero chance what your friend describes is the result of a ‘Footer’ change! There just isn’t that much of an affect that comes from isolation unless it was SO bad before that his system surely wasn’t ‘holographic’ to begin with!! Tweaks are tweaks and they do not results in a sea-change unless a severe issue already exists. |
good point @roxy54 i remember several years back, i bought a preamp from a nice older gentleman locally, he insisted i come in to hear his system, of which he was very proud i sat there, big focals driven by $15000 mcintosh hybrids, in a beautiful home in classic styling... then he played music, it was all phasey, sound coming from the sides, hole in the middle -- so looked at his cabling, sure enough one speaker had black on red and vice versa... i asked him to sit down, i swapped the connection... asked him how he liked the sound, his face turned red, he said, ’’whaddidja do? holy moly’ ... he was more than a little embarrassed, but happy and thankful ... lol |
The answer depends upon your point of comparison. If your objective is accurate reproduction of recorded music, regardless of whether that is a close miked studio recording or a single miked live venue recording, the the answer is no. If your point of comparison is the ”absolute sound” of sitting in a live performance, and your goal is every recording must sound absolute, then the answer is yes. The former is the realistic point of comparison. The goal should be building the most resolving system within your budget and personal taste. Whether that image is forward or further back, the space between images, a sharp or defuse leading edge, the air around images is equipment dependent and a personal decision. For me, I want the closest resolution and imaging to that the mike and recording equipment picked I probably fall into the minority in this forum because I prefer a more forward image of high resolution and distinct leading edge, but also with air and decay. Like good bourbon, to each our personal taste. PS. I prefer Four Roses upper end single barrel version. Upfront. Not sweet and relaxed.
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I’ve always thought there was a natural tension between sound stage and the bloom of the individual instruments. If they are narrowly or tightly placed in the soundstage but not allowed to expand within their positions - too holographic only because there’s not enough bloom. Ideally you would have as much as both as possible, without detriment to the other category. |
You don’t need to spend $140k to achieve a holographic experience. And you don’t need a Dr. Choueri BACCH filters system. I am a big fan of a holographic experience. A previous version of my system created a wide, high sound stage with clear, localized instruments but it all occurred in front of me. My current system now has clear, localized instruments that can occur beside me and sometimes behind me while the vocals occur in the center about 6 feet in front of me. This might be awful for some people. To me, it’s heaven. The effect depends on the producer’s vision, of course. If you want to check how immersive the sound is on your system, play Coda by Ryoji Ikeda. It’s a kind of boring song but it starts by playing two bells. The 2nd, 4th, 6th, etc bells plays directly to my right. If I turn my head 90 degrees, I’d be staring at the apparent source of the sound. Coherence, clarity, timbre, and so many other things are responsible for making a compelling experience. But too much holography? For some, sure. |
@mapman ...*L* Only vaguely jealous of you having heard some MBLs' IRL... I'd love to.....but, would be insanely tempted to sell what's left of my immediate family into leather slavery to the aliens and what's left of my organs to a mystery market.... "Use or eat with whatever, I don't give a ....." When I first heard of the MBLs.....I thought "Game may not be over, but they can only make them smaller....less $s' would be nice, too..." ;) Nice to read that John (and others...*S*...feel that the Ohms' (and Walsh in general) can still punch at Goliaths' knees... ;) All that's needed is to pop a little higher. One might get kicked....but you've gotten some attention. *G* Holographic....and here I thought that was the Idea in the first place. Something to stare at... Once upon a place... I owned a C9....with the Kenwood L07 system (tuner/pre/07M mono amps, the cables for them, an AudioControl C-101 eq with the mic for room eq, ESS AMT-1Cs', Sony CD, Revox A77, Technics SL-10... ...about as SOTA as I could afford to go at that time, in that place... (Of Course, there was Better...There's Always Better...But, It worked.) And, so did the C9....when the recording and that 'Polk in the box ' agreed to 'mesh'. When they did....Didn't need no herbal or chem compensation, no... When no, easy 'nuff to bypass... Of late, I've been able to edge back to 'more of that' with surround Walsh...and surround Heils; yes, dipoles & omnis. Haven't gotten around to the SMGa Maggies', but... It's nice to have goals...*L* I let that C9 slip away..... Time to revisit....'Back to the Future Through the Past!' (Oh, the last comment on the HF VCorner....is not me...but note the date....) Surrealistically yours, J |
I once heard a pair of Fried Model H - two satellites and an enormous stereo subwoofer, a rectangular box containing two 18 foot (I think) channels ported out the right and the left. (As much as I love my REL subs, I suspect a Hegeman type subwoofer such as the Fried might be better.) Incidentally, the Fried Model H is a rare model nowadays; I’ve been looking for a long time. The sound was everywhere. It was like being under water and the water was sound - like no other system I’ve heard. It was wonderfully warm, rich, as full as can be, lush, very beautiful, mesmerizing - inoffensive, listenable for long periods - but I do not recall a coherent soundstage. It’s the kind of system I’d want as a second system - kind of what I suspect the Design Acoustics D-12’s sound like - another difficult to find pair of speakers. So, was it too holographic? Yes, by far. I’ve heard the recordings I heard on that system; they have a coherent soundstage that the Frieds obliterated. My current system would render everything right where it should be. But, as I said, I’ve wanted a pair since I began this endeavor five years ago. Nature recordings would sound particularly fine on that system. |
@roxy54 Sorry to confuse. I'm speaking about the means and not the end. IMO, Holographic is obtained when the stereo phase is nice, clean and separated with zero noise. The only way to get those qualities is if your components, cables and power supply and conditioning are at a high enough level. When you achieve those qualities, your music becomes holographic. Higher levels of holographic stereo phase images can be obtained with improvements in the chain. IMO, when you improve one component but not the other and your system is resolving enough you can start to hear limitations in other parts of your chain. Improve the limitation and the balance is returned, and the holographic qualities become more so. Too holographic isn't a problem if the signal is clean and balanced. It's why people spend money. Too holographic with high frequency noise is a problem. Or to holographic and receding bass. Or too holographic and forward souding (too mid centric) |
IMO, No such thing as too holographic if all components are leveled matched. The only time I find something my system is too holographic is when I upgrade to a next level component which then reveals the weakness of the other components in the chain. Then it's "too holographic". Once I level match the chain, the balance is returned and the new found transparency only reveals more in the music and not the limitations (cable, dac, amp, etc.). |
that was my first thought as well… |
Imaging differentiation of the sound sources is not the holographic volume distribution of each sound source and the soundstaging three dimensions vary and are not fixed, the holographic perception is recording dependant and is related to the abilities of the speakers in a acoustically controlled room to give the best recording specific translation..The speakers design must be good to begin with... but it is not enough... At least with normal AVERAGE speakers under 5,000 bucks... With very costly speakers i never experimented ...The MBL seens able to give holography with minimal acoustic control...With my average but good speakers Mission Cyrus, holographical expeerience was possible only after a complete control of my room... Impossible in a living room... Probably the MBL speakers made it possible in a living room optimally organized with no heavy acoustic devices and treatment by the virtue of his specific omnidirectional design... bUt it cost at least 100,000 bucks... 😁😊 It would be for sure more clear and more detailed than my Mission Cyrus vintage paid 50 bucks..,. For sure PERFECT holography exist with virtual room acoustic with Dr. Choueri BACCH filters... Read about it to understand WHY this is so...here too it is not a trick which will distract you from music at all... Many people think that way because they had never experience holography really... Holography is not A PARLOUR trick, but an acoustically controlled phenomenan by a set of acoustic ratio for each different room... Digital processing can do it but because i never bought a good digital processing system i dont know...The DIGITAL PROCESSING of dr. Choeri BACCH filters will not degraded timbre experience and will gove holographical translation of each recording as it is set ...it is not a trick, choueri is a classical music lover and a physicist acoustician... He dont sell tricks.. My experience was with acoustic control of the room with Helmholtz resonators grid and "sound lensing from the speakers" with foldable screen and the right balance in reflective waves and direct one and the right balance of absortion/diffusion reflection ratio... i also use distributed tuned resonators to improve mechanically by some mechanical crossfeed between speakers helping the localization around the room... But if the recording process is bad no speakers/room can improve it only making it more interesting and less disgusting soundwise... But even with the best recording in the world if the relation between speakers and room is not optimal, there will be very poor holography... Holography is not a trick it is an acoustic phenomena studied in acoustic laboratory .. Studied with electronical and/or mechanical parameters too.... |
+1 @larsman |
I have never heard of those footers and have to wonder if the post is a plug. I fail to see how footers under a streamer can create such a change to the extent of holography with no other changes to the system. But let's for the sake of argument accept the premise that it did. As much as I disdain the idea that there is an "absolute sound", I have never heard holography at a live show including live shows of acoustic jazz trios. With certain recordings I have experienced holographic imaging with my old standmounts. I think for example of Joe Henry's "Scar" and the first track "Richard Pryor Addresses a Tearful Nation". Properly set up, a decent system will create the sensation of holographic imaging with a recording that has that information successfully recorded and embedded into it. For those of you who equated the OP's question to "can you have too much money" and such, you are reacting with your brain, imho, and not from your heart and out of experience. In the real world it is not natural and would soon prove distracting. If it is the artist's and producer's intent, it can be enjoyable. If it is not, it becomes an unnatural parlor trick and distraction. I doubt very much that there is a system on Earth, without digital processing, that is holographic with all recordings. Without processing, it has to be embedded in the recording or it can not happen. |
