Can a system sound too Holographic?
Hi friends :)
So I got a question for those interested. For me, having a 2 channel system with a Holographic soundstage is very desirable.
I bring this up because I had lent some Centerstage 2 footers ( isolation devices) to a friend to try out. To make a long story short, he likes what they are doing under his Lumin T3, however he mentioned that it might be "Too Holographic". I don't know about you guys and gals, but that wouldn't really be a problem for me. Your thoughts or experiences please. Anyone experience a soundstage that was too Holographic?
A system CANNOT be too holographic... Holograhy does not means artificial and unnatural audio trick AT ALL... It is an acoustic concept related to the way the acoustic recording trade-off album is well or not so well translated in the acoustic room of the listener ( a dedicated room or a living room)... You confused and conflated two completely different things here : the live listening of a spectator in some specific location In the theater and the location of the recording microphones trade-off... We want what is possible and real: the specific recording choices to be perceived through our speakers/ room relation.. You want something which is impossible: the recreation of a specific listener impression in a concert... There is no relation between a listener location in the music Hall and the recording microphones CHOICES by the engineer..  When we listen a GOOD recording the soundfield impression must be on par with the best listener possible location but cannot be the same by acoustic definition... ( For example one mic recording technique with "Sound Liaison" company albums is so good that it recreate well a very good listener location in a real event) In most live event the soundfield will be less good than on a very good recordings... The only advantage of a live event most of the times is not the ACOUSTIC conditions, but the artist magical real presence... Â
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A sounfield must be coherent... And the cables and amplifier and speaker help for the holography indeed , but a coherent holography is an ACOUSTIC phenomenon FIRST AND LAST coming if the speakers/room is optimized... ....Not a disturbing artefact... But we can create artificial holography for sure, a compaqny i will not name sell devices that do that artificial "holographical sound effect" i am not interested by that kind of "tweaks"...I am in mechanical room acoustic or electronic BACCH filters which are natural recreation of the recording soundstage in a "virtual room holography " with no degradation of timbre instruments... if someone do not want to tune his room to create a natural holography, the Cgoeri BACCH filters do that and IT IS NOT ARTIFICIAL TRICK...Read about it... |
For the ear (a) and (b) the speakers 1 and 2 do not present the same distance from one another, we can metaphorically with the term holography in physics transpose it in listening experience where we use the ear (a) and the brain computing indirect sound wave (b) and direct soundwave (a) alternatively and reciprocally (as the light wave of reference in an hologram ) from the reference wave incoming from speakers 1 and speakers 2 by a time differential delay ( the interference pattern in physics) different for each ear; and vice versa for ear(b)... This complex computing by the brain recreate holographic information VOLUME of the sound sources who become more than a point, a line or a mere surface,... This is why the sounfiekld of speakers/room and from top headphone illustrate 3 characteristics of the SOUNDFIELD and not the traditional well known two : -- imaging differentiation from the sound sources in relation with each other -- Soundstaging integrating three dimensions in some GLOBAL stage , which can be fixed in less performant and artificial design or in a bad acoustic room but which are normally highly recording dependant for their dimensions size ... ---Holographical definition of EACH sound surces in his own dynamical VOLUME of space... The sound sources are no more a plane but a perceived 3-d relief an outline.. |
Imaging differentiation of the sound sources is not the holographic volume distribution of each sound source and the soundstaging three dimensions vary and are not fixed, the holographic perception is recording dependant and is related to the abilities of the speakers in a acoustically controlled room to give the best recording specific translation..The speakers design must be good to begin with... but it is not enough... At least with normal AVERAGE speakers under 5,000 bucks... With very costly speakers i never experimented ...The MBL seens able to give holography with minimal acoustic control...With my average but good speakers Mission Cyrus, holographical expeerience was possible only after a complete control of my room... Impossible in a living room... Probably the MBL speakers made it possible in a living room optimally organized with no heavy acoustic devices and treatment by the virtue of his specific omnidirectional design... bUt it cost at least 100,000 bucks... đđ It would be for sure more clear and more detailed than my Mission Cyrus vintage paid 50 bucks..,. For sure PERFECT holography exist with virtual room acoustic with Dr. Choueri BACCH filters... Read about it to understand WHY this is so...here too it is not a trick which will distract you from music at all... Many people think that way because they had never experience holography really... Holography is not A PARLOUR trick, but an acoustically controlled phenomenan by a set of acoustic ratio for each different room... Digital processing can do it but because i never bought a good digital processing system i dont know...The DIGITAL PROCESSING of dr. Choeri BACCH filters will not degraded timbre experience and will gove holographical translation of each recording as it is set ...it is not a trick, choueri is a classical music lover and a physicist acoustician... He dont sell tricks.. My experience was with acoustic control of the room with Helmholtz resonators grid and "sound lensing from the speakers" with foldable screen and the right balance in reflective waves and direct one and the right balance of absortion/diffusion reflection ratio... i also use distributed tuned resonators to improve mechanically by some mechanical crossfeed between speakers helping the localization around the room... But if the recording process is bad no speakers/room can improve it only making it more interesting and less disgusting soundwise... But even with the best recording in the world if the relation between speakers and room is not optimal, there will be very poor holography... Holography is not a trick it is an acoustic phenomena studied in acoustic laboratory .. Studied with electronical and/or mechanical parameters too.... |
  Ok it is a vintage speakers mapman is it not ? Way less costly than newer design a cheap 140,000 bucks ... certainly interesting in S. Q. ...Thanks i regret the lost of my room... đ i Cannot afford them but this article made me curious... The Ohm seems very interesting and no too costly... It will be for younger folk in a bigger house than me ... Hopefully some headphone can help to cure sadness cominf from the lost of room/speakers ...  The article is interesting:  « 10. MBL Radialstrahler 101E Mk.IIBack story:When MBLâs uniquely designed speakers first appeared in the early 1980âs, Marty Gersten concluded that although they did use travelling-wave transducers like the Walsh design, it was not a patent infringement since it was done in a different configuration with multiple drivers.The MBL Radialstrahlers have received many excellent reviews from all around the world â with good reasons: they look amazing and sound very good. Recent update:A few years ago, I took a trip to England to meet with a potential Ohm distributor and demonstrate the custom product I was suggesting that they sell.I was hoping to get them to build the cabinets themselves and to buy the Walsh drivers, subwoofers and crossovers from Ohm. I expected they could retail them for around $3000 per pair. I arrived in London and went to a local hotel.We had timed the trip to coincide with the opening of the Heathrow Audio Show.Our agreed-upon plan was to go through the show and listen to the best systems on display.We would be auditioning all our competition in just a couple of days.I had brought a bunch of CDs for my presentation; but only took the Alpine Demo CD to the show to use as a âstandardâ source for all the systems we auditioned. I have heard this CD on literally hundreds, maybe thousands, of speakers and know several of the cuts note for note. At the show many, many high-end speakers were demonstrated, either in their own rooms or in high-end electronics manufacturersâ rooms.Many of these speakers had received rave reviews in the audio press.In a consumer show, you want to sound your best and no expense was spared to make great demonstrations.The prices varied from under $2,000 to over $30,000 per pair for the speakers alone. And into six figures for complete systems! I know what this CD sounds like on my speakers. As I went from room to room I became more and more depressed.Many of the speakers sounded very good to my companions; but none sounded like mine to me.It is a hard sell trying to convince someone that this many well reviewed speakers are all wrong and my sound it correct.I had fought this uphill battle in Japan a few years earlier; so I was getting discouraged while my potential customers were happily discussing the pros and cons of the speakers we auditioned. Then we came to the MBL room. They had their Radialstrahler 101 E MK II on display powered by their own electronics.They put on my CD and let the 101s play. I internally breathed a great sigh of relief.Here was the only pair of speakers that sounded like mine.The MBL representative happily spend nearly an hour demonstrating all his CDs to us enthusiastic listeners as other show goers came and went sharing our enthusiasm.We all agreed, these were the best sounding speakers in the show by far. And at $140,000 for the system, we understood they could be in a totally different class with a different sound. After a short stop at their number two choice (to confirm their earlier impressions), they were excited to hear my speakers. We unpacked the Ohms in their acoustic lab (a converted garage). There we tested them with a 300-Watt amplifier to confirm the speakers had survived the flight from NY.Then we took them into the main living room section of the home.I was a bit concerned about this space as the left wall was almost totally open to the dining room/open kitchen area. They hooked up the speakers and I auditioned the same CD as we had been hearing all day.The speakers sounded correct to me in the room and the others were amazed.The Ohms sounded closer to the MBLs than any other speaker we had auditioned.Then we cranked the system up to âsee what they could doâ and I noticed the sound was getting a bit âhardâ, maybe distorting in the high end.Still, my hosts were exceedingly pleased with the speakersâ performance.The host explained they were using a 35-Watt CD/receiver that his wife normally used for background music.They had wanted to hear them in a real-life setup, not in a âcost-no-objectâ system like the systems we had been listening to at the show. Although we never came to a distribution agreement, I felt the experience was well worth the cost in time and money. Although both the fully omnidirectional MBL and the original fully omnidirectional Ohm As and Ohm Fs require âfar-from-wallsâ placement, they all keep their sonic balance from anywhere in the listening room and create a spectacular soundscape in their sweet-spot. And like the original Walshs, that spectacular soundscape moves with you as you leave the center sweet-spot and almost totally collapses when you are in front of one speaker.The controlled directivity of the later generations, called Walsh 2 and beyond, addresses this problem better than any other speaker in the world. The MBLs subwoofer is a bandpass design that impacts the transition to the main âfootballsâ.In Ohmâs new 20/20K Series, we addressed this problem by making the subwoofer use a standard acoustic suspension design to match the acoustic suspension Walsh satellite sitting on top of the subwoofer. So, there you have it.My âTop Tenâ from the time I was in college to the present â each successive âGreatestâ adding something to at least my world of sound, audio and music. Let me just add here, with a note of pride, âDollar-for-Dollar,â I fully believe that the current Ohm Walsh speakers deliver the finest, most accurate and most enjoyable sound available, from the widest sweet-sweep in the world! Good Listening! John » |
For sure the design of the speakers help a lot too... I just made a search of MBL speakers, i did not know them and the design is amazing... I dont doubt in a good room that holography will be stupendous... Wow! The complete MBL systems cost 500,000 bucks... i was proud of my holographical room, way less better but costing nothing..,. i must not look at these MBL systems because i already had a glimpse of holography and nothing beat this immersiveness.. The only cheap way to gain this soundfield is the virtual room systems of Dr. Choueri BACCH filters system for something near 10,000 ... Â Â |
I dont understand why for someone holographical is analytical at all... It is not my experience... On the opposite your are like there with the music, and any need for concentration stop, it is so relaxing, because there is no need for any effort to hear any instrument localized and in his own volume of space; i dont undertand equating it with analytical... Anyway holography is not the results of the design of the amplifier and speakers alone but essentially of their right acoustical integration in a room... And no recording is the same,... Jazz trio does not sound and is not recoreded as religious chorus of 16 century in a big church... Here in chorus music nothing is more relaxing and less analytical than human voices perfectly distributed in all my room... Holography is highly recording dependant for the way the music is recreated in the room.., No holography means all recording sound way more the same in a FIXED oncde for all soundstage... In holography the soundstage dimensions and form from my music albums differ and vary a lot... |
Very interesting distinction i never even thought about... Thanks for putting it ghdprentice... "Wall of sound" is for me the definition of hell... Holography is heaven... đ€ The main difference is the decibels level and in one case silence and relaxing sound at normal ; in the other case body rape loudness and agression with premature tinnitus and deafness... For sure i put it in an extreme way but.... Rock concert are not designed acoustically as small music concert hall ... Did i understand well ? The concept of "wall of sound" was created by Phil Spector... It sold a lot of tickets and impairment hearing aids 30 years later......đđ  But true holography may engulf the listener in sound too with sound sources near him or behind the speakers or around the listener... It is recording dependant... But not with intense dynamic and over the board bass pressure rushing to the listener from the speakers in front of him... But true holography in a small room is very difficult to create...With headphone it is very difficult too because no crosstalk and there is not acoustical control of the shell in most headphones.. Â
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Holographic is a balance ratio between "sound source " volume dimensions and localization and listener envelopment factor... ASW/LV There is no such thing as a too much amount of holography.. ( But a soundfield can be wrongly and badly distorted in the room yes by lack of holograpical control ) Why ? Because in acoustic experience , some ratio must be optimized , when the acoustic conditions are set right in a small room, this ratio become optimal it cannot AT THE END be too much or not enough ... The sound sources can be experienced almost as point or tiny surfaces and the soundfield can be outside the listener body completely... This is not holography... We can have imaging differentiation AND fIxed soundstage dimensions without holography... ( With holography, the soundstage vary in dimensions with the recording choices in each album in a good acoustic or with a good headphone but as most room most headphone are not good ) This is why most reviewers in non dedicated room recognize only two aspects of the soundfield in their review , the imaging and almost fixed soundstaging and miss the holography.. Any ideal soundfield exhibit three aspects not two... I did not pick up this in a book by the way, i created it in my room reading acoustic articles to set my experiments and created my devices...... Those who dont bother about holography never experience it fully ... Sorry... But yes timbre set right is mandatory and the first thing to create... But once timbre experience is there as relatively natural, to experience immersiveness we need an optimal ratio between sound sources dimensions and localizations for holographical experience.. The objective perfect way to experience it, without be bother by acoustic problems very difficult to solve right is NOW simple : we must buy a Dr. Choueri virtual acoustic room program or dac with his BACCH filters... This is way more perfect than my homemade experiments and it is a plug and play device ... it takes me 2 years full time to do it and only to some extent ... Now i lost my room.. Happily my headphone give me an astounding soundfield but it is another story...( i cannot afford the Dr Choueri filters system for now and anyway i am happy as it is ) By the way saying that holography may distract the listener from the music is like saying that a great acoustic hall for an orchestra distract us from listening the orchestra... That does not make sense... |
