Hi all, just a quickie here Tessera: I went to an Independent Grocer and found Cameo right there on the shelf, also often found in Loeb's or Loblaws, if not indeed at the Home Hardware. Rubber Renew is found at electronics stores, but lacquer thinner - also at Home Hardware :-) - is just as good.
The Lenco/RS-A1/Denon DL-103 combo is one of the most ELECTRIFYING and exciting/musical combos I have ever heard, and the RS tonearm SO good that the Denon on it matches a state-of-the-art cartridge on almost any other tonearm in terms of detail! Given their respective prices, a helluva bargain, especially when you throw in the Mighty Lenco :-)!! If a thief were to break into my home and steal every tonearm and cartridge I had, but left the RS/Denon behind, I could easily live with it as my sole combo for the rest of my life, it does NOTHING wrong, musically-speaking. The JMW with a good MC, however, is more perfectly balanced and neutral (The RS is not strictly neutral), so it's sophistication vs DRAMA and fire (not that the JMW/MC -- and various MMs - is lacking in excitement). Another great combo is the MG-1/Dyna 17D MKIII, which together on the Lenco is FIRE AND balance!! Likely other great combos out there too (low-mass/Grado, RS/MM, etc.)!
Enjoy your idlers all!! |
Jean,
Thanks for your input.
Anyone have a 17D III they are selling??? |
Hi Kravi4ka,
Not sure whether your question got answered. Make the armboard 1/8" to 3/16" thinner than your plinths top layer.
This will be about 3 - 5 mm. 5/8th should be fine if you'll be attaching the armboard directly to the second layer.
- Mario |
Thanks Mario,
That was exaclty what I was asking :) I think I will borrow some money and buy the Rs1... And I have a shelter 501 in my mind, a few people have repoorted great results with that combination. Thanks guys,I am working on the Lenco, pictures soon I hope |
Jean, I suspect that you're racing right now to finish various projects for people before you sail off for your Mediterranean travels and adventure with Srajan. Before you leave, I want to express appreciation for your sense of adventure, all the trouble you're taking to pull this review off, and your dedication to the idler wheel revival. Bon voyage!
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
- Mark Twain |
Great sentiment Bob, I've lived my life by it so far, why stop now :-)!? Speaking of sailing, the Green Monster has just been picked up for shipping by sea to Cyprus! Let's hope the boat doesn't sink on the way there. Strange coincidence, it turns out I lacquered the Lenco the same shade of green as Srajan's Zu speakers!! Can you beat that?!? The Audio Gods are with me :-) !!
And speaking of yet more sailing, I decided to let the preview guide my trip. I didn't know at the time I sent the e-mails which were quoted that they would be quoted, and they mentioned that I had often stopped off on Cyprus and my way from Greece to Israel/Egypt and back again. So I got my Egyptian visa, and if time and money permits, I will do exactly that for the review, stopping by on my way back from Egypt by ship to assemble the Lenco and begin the review. Though with island-hopping and shipping I don't know if even two months allows me the time to do it. We'll see.
I'll be largely if not completely off-line for the next two months, at least on forums, so have a good summer all, and pray to the sea gods for me and the Giant Lenco!! |
Hi guys,
Got my replacement RS A1 tone arm wire harness. Hired a pro
to solder the wires on. He also stripped out the old junction box behind the cartridge leads and connected the wires directlyto the RCA jacks. Thus avoiding two extra contact points. Can't wait to break the wires in.
I am working on a plinth 22 x 19 x 8.5. It's laminated and being lacquered black now. Weighs a ton.
The tonearm work above cost me 40 bucks. Cheap, for the delicate work involved. |
Good news Tessera. Let us know if the RS arm is improved with the direct soldering.
Hope to see some photos of your Lenco/Plinth.
Oregon |
Just a brief post to say that the mighty Lenco L75 rebuild recently completed smokes my Micr-Seiki RX-5000 and my heavy plinthed Technics SP 10 Mk2. Second best upgrade to my system after rooom treatment.
I will try and post pics and a more lengthy description plus trials and tribulations over the weekend. Currently playing a ZYX UNIverse on a Triplanar V11 thru rebuilt Sonic Frontiers phono 1, Line 3, Power 3's and Focal/Raven sealed boxes with sealed 12" Shiva subs.
Steve in Ottawa |
Hi all,
Work has been a lot lately and the only good thing was a small package from EIFL with a ,hm, weird but beautiful RS A1. Man, that device is strange, but I think I will like it a lot, it's a tweaker's dream and that is really what I like. But Tessera, are you just putting it on the plinth or do you position it below the plinth, underhang 19.6 mm? And how do you adjust VTF? I am still on a business trip and when I come back I will play with it a little more, can you please show some pictures of your setup, please? And have you tried it with different cartridges? I have a Denon 103 to try first before funds permit a Shelter 501... The other thing that I noticed was that the bronze cup of the bearing is somewhat very crude, there is no fine point that the spike can make a contact with, should I try and polish that? And is it removable-looks like it but I am not sure... If there is some info on how to set up this beast apart from the article at Enjoy The Music and Sakurasystems please share. Thanks for your posts on the RS A1, it really encouraged me to send the money and now the only thing I do is dream for a free weekend :)) |
Radialsteve, That's very encouraging news that the Lenco/Triplanar can best two such a hallowed analog ikons. I'm sitting here waiting for my re-plinthed Lenco (gloss black base with ruby red chassis) to arrive from the mighty Jean who posted it just before departure to Cyprus. My only concerns are or were regarding how the combo of a Lenco and Triplanar would work. I'm going to mount my Triplanar and Koetsu Urushi, as soon as the thing gets here, if customs will ever let it go. |
Lewm, the best result so far has been with an SME V and a Kondo-IOj. I always thought the SME was a stellar performer but somehow lacking the 'soul' that allows you to feel the pace and rhythm or "being there" with the music. On the Lenco, the SME is a different arm and it truly brings out the best in the Kondo - such that no one element trumps any other in the presentation of the whole. I have a renewed respect now for the SME, especially when the damping is applied judiciously.
Steve |
Hi Kravi4ka,
Congratulations on your excellent arm purchase. I am sure
that you will have years of enjoyment out of this beauty.
Yes, overhang is 19.6 mm, but you can also experiment. I
position the arm basically like JNantais does in his setups. Except that I may be positioned a little higher vertically as I use a round 3-4 mm rubber spacer under the base of the arm to keep it steady. I don't place the arm on the metal part of the Lenco. I rotated the table (like in JN's pictures)and place the arm on the plinth proper. See JN's Bauhaus Lenco. I did not make a separate arm cutout though, so the arm will rest on laqured MDF. I have some quarter inch bubunga hardwood to make an arm platform and an aluminum one as well as a pink ivory piece. I will experiment as to the best sounding one and laminate it on the plinth. I have a higher platform probably because the Shelter 501 is a taller cartridge. VTF is adjusted with a hex key at the base of the tonearm. Be careful when adjusting because the arm gets excited when things get set in motion and it does'nt take much to get the counterweight swinging and then the arm as it rests on the cup to swing.
Also,always remember that those little tonearm leads are what holds the whole contraption together, just don't force
them to support the weight of the arm by dangling one part. Always use two hands when you handle the arm. I like to grasp from on top at the bearing the armand base together
while supporting the bottom of the base with other hand.
I don't have a digital camera to post a picture. Sorry. I tried the arm with a factory modified benz silver before my 501 and it played better than when it was on a modified Rega. I have an OC 9 and a Rega Elys kicking around but ever since I mounted the 501 I have not bothered to hear these on the RS labs. As to polishing the cup, I have not done anything to mine. For set up info, I have the original papers included in the box, and basically they are the same as the Sakura info. On their website,look for the diagram
of thearm as seen from the top riding in an arc accross the record. Follow that at 19.6 underhang and your in business. The junction box that I had removed from the arm and wired direct was suggested by the designer of the arm
in Japan. I had requested from Yoshi the Sakura head guy a full four foot long arm lead to go directly to the pre.
He called the arms designer to order but he cannot supply that length. As an alternative he recomended to try the mod.After about 2 hours of breaking in it already sounds much more open and direct. Very very worth the effort and cost to do.
Start playing the arm and experiment with VTA, underhang,VTF to your hearts content. You will discover a whole new world of flexibility. For me it was my greatest upgrade. Well that and the Lenco that beat my Linn/Lingo which I am still trying to sell. Enjoy Kravi4ka. |
dear Tessera,
Thank you so much for the thorough and complete answer, it was a real pleasure to read it. I have not made any progress yet, but it will happen soon :)) |
I am really pleased with my L75 / heavy plinth as mentioned earlier in this thread but I do have a discernable hum from the motor particulalrly sensitive to my low output Kondo-IOj. Has anyone got a proven solution, mu metal, copper etc.?
Steve |
Rs, An SME V is not in the cards for me, but I will let you know how the Triplanar/Koetsu works when I finally do get the tt from UPS. (Yes, it's been more than 3 weeks since Jean shipped the Lenco to me, with many snafus on the part of the UPS customs house that was supposed to clear the shipment, and I still don't have the Lenco. Ottawa is about 600 mi from my house, and now I wish I had driven up to get the Lenco in person.) The hum you are reporting: are you sure it is a hum induced by the motor, or could it be rumble (I truly hope not)? I am not aware that motors can induce hum in MC cartridges, is why I ask. |
Ortofon VMS series
Hi,
I have a dim memory that this cartridge was discussed somewhere in the thread. Is it any good? A pensioner friend on a budget has the VMS20ED MkII with a worn stylus and wants to know whether to get a replacement stylus or go for something like the ADC XLM II available for around $80 on Ebay.
I'd appreciate any help,
Wolf |
Hi Wolf
(...since nobody else has spoken up...)
You're correct in recalling much talk of both these carts on "Da Thread I". JN (and others...) have been big proponents of the Ortofon (it was his recommendation that prompted me to search the web for this line).
I now have two Ortofon VMS20E MkII cartridges (both via ebay) which perform fabulously well. One came as NOS - the seller claimed the stylus was never used. Under a lab microscope it indeed looks NOS, and sounds wonderful at the end of my JH-Labs Formula 4 unipivot tonearm (cousin to the much-discussed Mayware).
The challenge is, Ortofon no longer make stylii specifically for the VMS line. You can get replacements from them that will fit, but it's not the same as a real NOS VMS stylus. Third party suppliers offer VMS replacements that are said to be "almost as good as..." and have the advantage of being new, and not in storage under who-knows-what conditions for many years.
A great source for Carts & Stylii is Ed Crockett at www.vintagelectronics.com. I have no business affiliation with Ed... but I AM a happy customer. He can tell you all you need to know about finding replacements for your VMS body.
BTW, the body accepts a range of stylii, so that it's possible to "upgrade" by fitting it with a higher spec'ed tip.
All my experience suggests getting a new stylus for the Ortofon is your best bet... it's a better performer (I still have my seventies-era ADC XLM MkII... not in the same league as the Ortofon).
I hope this helps Wolf.
Cheers...
Grant |
Grant, have you any experience with Ed Crockett's rebuilds of idler wheels? I have a plastic idler from a Bogen B-61; the PVC tire has long since perished and cracked, and fallen off. It's gone; I didn't keep it around once it went.
Also, sooner or later I will need to have the idler on my Garrard 301 turntable rebuilt. I still have a new one that I got from British Industries Corp., way back when the Carduners owned the company; it's still in new condition and perfect, but it might be time to get the old one that's been in the turntable restored, after all this time, probably fifty years or so. |
I believe I initiated some discussion of the Ortofon VMS 20 here when I compared it favourably to the Denon 103.Any way it is still easy to obtain a genuine relacement stylus for it as Ortofon still make them as far as I know.Another source is Musonic in the U.K which even has a VMS 30 relacement stylus this is said to be even better and you can put it on the VMS 20 body effectively making it the top of the range model as the bodies are interchangeable.Here is a link http://www.musonic.co.uk/ |
Hi Stefanl... and OOPS !
I stand corrected - Ortofon do indeed offer the "D 20 E MK II" replacement stylus (just checked www.ortofon.com), described as a "nude elliptical" tip.
The availability issue is with the VMS30 model - they no longer offer the "fine line" tip - I was confused on models. To upgrade the VMS body to "30" status, we must turn to other manufacturers.
Last year Ed quoted me thusly: "Astatic OR-108ed, exact replacement for VMS 30E MkII - $30.00... also have Pfnst. 540d7 at $35.00 (fits all 15 series)".
Hmmm, maybe it's time for the "30" upgrade..... |
Hi Gp49
Fortunately I've had no need for idler rebuilds !! I think Mario_B had one redone by Ed... but I could be mistaken (...twice in one day !!). I remember somebody from Da Thread used Ed's service, and was very pleased with the result.
If you call Ed on the phone, he'll be happy to answer all your questions - very friendly and knowledgeable. Oh... and very reasonable prices too.
Good Luck with the tires (...or is that "tyres" ?)
Cheers...
Grant |
Thanks for the meaty info on the VMS series, guys. I'll check it out.
Regards,
Wolf |
Ed Crockett email address?
I'm trying to get info on replacement styli for the Ortofon VMS20E MkII from Ed. I can only see his phone number for contact at www.vintageelectronics.com. Does anyone have his email address? Phoning from Australia is expensive and difficult with the difference in time zones.
TIA. |
Hi Wolf
Ed Crockett's contact info can be found at: http://www.vintagelectronics.com/Contact.htm (note the single "e" in the middle of the URL).
The email address for Ed is: info@vintagelectronics.com
Good Luck with The Hunt !
Grant |
Thanks a lot, Grant. Just sent off the email.
Regards,
Wolf |
GP49,
Better late... I had Ed Crockett do a tire rebuild on my plastic idler from a Bogen-61 last year. Couldn't be happier. Firm, yet supple and at a very reasonable price. If you do decide to send it off to him, be sure to include as much of the old tire as you can so that he can hone the "V" for a matched profile.
- Mario |
THANKS, Mario.
Unfortunately the original PVC tire disintegrated and is no longer in existence. The best I can do is to measure a known good, metal idler for diameter and include a photograph showing the tire's profile. |
Hi GP49,
It's possible that Ed Crockett held onto the old PVC tire that I sent along to him for reference with mine last year. If not, it's not super critical especially if you can trace the "V" profile. Diameter can be an "in the ballpark" matter - as the speed transfer from motor spindle to platter is linear.
- Mario |
Hi Fellers, look at this thread on the Teres idler drive - apparently we are all idiots for "believing" in the Lenco and having any contact with one J. Nantais - an unofficial purveyer of idler wheel technology. They even have a picture of Jean in River City :)
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/67/676802.html |
That was a humorous and ironic comment by "JD", but where do you see a photo of Jean? |
Hi Mike!
Glad to see you back. Missed your irreve"rant" ways on many a forum over the last few months. Whatcha been up to? Any progress on Peter's designed top plate?
Mine is still mired in the design application phase -probably more dreaming than practical application (not having the tools to match my visions).
Anyway, great to hear from you!
- Mario |
Hey, it's Mario! I check in from time to time, in fact, I made the post above because I couldnt stand the inactivity any more. Right now I am a guy with too many projects. I had my Lenco #2 well on the way when a bearing fell off a router bit and I ruined the top veneer (a large glued up piece of bandsawn and hand planned veneer - sigh). Oh well, I hope to get back to it as well as my other furniture projects soon. Peters plate will be #3 - I am a little surprised that so few people have finished theirs. Regards
Mike |
Greetings from Jerusalem all! I am here, and can you believe it, the Lenco is still stuck in Cypriot Cutsoms, as untouchable as the Ark of the Covenant (seems appropriate, considering where I am). Lenco-wise, this trip has been a daily logistical nightmare and disaster, I waited three weeks on Cyprus in the hopes of setting up the Lenco, and finally threw in the towel, and will spend the next three weeks travelling this part of the world - Israel, Egypt, perhaps Jordan - before returning to Cyprus in the hopes that by then all the items will be together for the set-up and review. I've had to extend my Lenco voyage, and of course, the earliest available flight back is...Sept. 11th.
In all the nightmares, confusions, late deliveries I have to thank - PROFUSELY - two individuals: George Karaolides on Cyprus, and John Thomson back in my home town. George, when I was desperate thinking that none of the associated hardware necessary for the review - which was being handled by others generously contributing phono stage, tonearms and etc. - would arrive, answered my plea for help (to source the necessary items if none did show up), picked me up at the airport in Larnaca at 3 am, and helped me out and introduced me to the audio movers and shakers on Cyprus and elsewhere (very well connected). He also entertained me for much of the three weeks, and through him I got to know the secret life of Nicosia, very fasinating. For instance, he took me for a beer one night across the Green Line into Turkish controlled Nicosia, after which it became my habit to have my coffee on the Greek side, and takle my lunch in the caravanserai on the Turkish side, my hotel being only twenty minutes walk away great fun. He will have some idler tales to tell, but for now it will remain a mystery.
John Thomson - "vinylcanuck" on eBay, the source of much of my vinyl and my master turntable packer, not to mention avid Lenco Lover and now owner of my Garrard plinth - handled the sale of much of my collection of audio goodies to fund this venture, and collected moneys owed to me, as I left on a shoestring with insuffient funds and a prayer. At every step (from Athens where I landed via the islands to Cyprus where I finally ended up) it looked like I would be forced to return to Canada, and John came through, wiring me the moneys to allow the continuance. He also took a looonnnng drive out to the country to my abode to dig out my RS-A1 from storage and ship it in time for the review (more misunderstandings), should it ever happen.
Finally, I have to thank the still-shadowy distributor helping me out in this venture, as well as ESELAB, whose identity will be made clear in the review - again should it ever happen ;-). He is a great fan of the Lencos, hence his participation. And of course I have to thank Srajan Ebaen at 6moons for handling all this, and most of all for giving me/us/the Lenco the chance!
With all the negativities so far in this trip (relating to the Lenco, the trip itself a fabulous adventure), it's no surprise the Yahoos, baboons and hyenas on VA continue to sling mud and deny the evidence - as all good Yahoos do - of three years and more of Mighty Lenco success, of the rise of dedicated forums and the creation of special sections in pre-existing forums, and even more, the creation and manufacturing of specialised top-plates to further realize the Great Lenco Potential. VPIs have fallen and been sold off in numbers, as have Linns, Well Tempereds, various Nottinghams, and so on. Even EMTs - the one thing Status-Conscious prejudiced Garrarders (which is NOT to say ALL Garrarders are this way, but many, some very well-known on Yahoo Asylum) quake, quiver and fawn before (of course, because of the price/Status).
Using the principles developed in Da Original Thread and this one, a Giant Direct Coupled Garrard whooped the ass of a top-of-the-line Platine Verdier, which a low-mass Cain & Cain plinth could not touch. Remember all, the Mighty Lenco is merely a tool (being cheap, and this is the real reason for the attacks, not to mention lowly envy/personal attacks/gadflies) to make the Greatness of the Idler-Wheel Drive known, and this has been a tremendous success, despite the Yahoo (not as in the organisation but as in Jonathan Swift's feces-slinging tree-living cretins) Forum's endless efforts to stop the Mighty Lenco Machine. I fought tooth and nail a couple of years back on that forum and others to have both the Lenco and idlers recognized, and encouraged them all to try their hand at it and roll their own: a matter of public record and easily verified by combining my moniker there - "melomane" (music/sound lover) - with various combinations (Lenco, idler, etc.). But of course, Yahoos and dog packs aren't interested in the truth, they merely follow the leader and like Mandrill baboons, let their aggression control what there is of their brains. Men (meaning thinking people), on the other hand, would investigate before unquestioningly playing the old dog pack routine. I'll return to battle another day, as demonstrated by the post/reply which Audiogon deleted a while back when one of these characters dared to post one of his ugly remarks on this very thread (and to those who asked for a copy, sorry I didn't save it ;-)). George related to me a Cypriot joke: "Hey Nikos, Pandelis is going around town bad-mouthing you to whoever will listen, what's the story here?" Nikos: "I don't know, I can't recall doing anything good for him lately."
This behaviour is destructive, the whole "attack the Lenco/idler thing" which was pretty well dead two years ago after the many vicious and endless battles I waged (you'll recognize some characters here who now present themselves as Captain Idlers, for those who want to investigate) has now returned, old issues of rumble and so forth revived. These attacks - based on nothing but prejudice (status/cost, belt vs idler, Garrard vs everything else) and ugly personal feelings (which defines them) - makes those just tuning in, so to speak, and unaware of the history, take these attacks seriously, as if no prejudice/ugliness were involved. This attitude then leads to an undoing of years of work, participation and development.
But in spite of this destructiveness, these tactics have failed, as the idler thing has taken SUCH wing that, what I wrote long ago and which I never thought to come true - to force the indutry to recant and bring back the idler - is actually happening. First of all Teres, which has introduced a rim-drive, but instead of a detached idler-wheel, has mounted the wheel directly to the motor. It is evident the idea is due to the Idler Wheel Revolution, due to the very reasons I wrote down so many times : wheels do not stretch, and they do not react, providing a much stronger motive force. Ironic then, that Teres - which continues to build and sell belt-drives - and considering I used the Lenco/idler comparisons to demonstrate the inherent speed instabilities of belt-drives - claims their new rim-drive does not suffer from the speed instabilities inherent in both belt-drives AND idler-wheel drives.
So let's consider this new rim-drive. Being directly attached to the motor, this invites noise problems, which the idler-wheel (wheel not directly engaged to the motor but stood off) was designed to reduce (in this sense like the belt in belt-drives). This design, in turn, means that a powerful motor such as used in Lencos (1800 RPM and four pounds), Garrards, Rek-o-Kuts and EMTs (ditto) cannot be used. And the wheel itself - not stretching and contracting or slipping - is only half the story. The other half is torque: it takes POWER to overcome the nefarious and dangerous stylus force drag, which is very significant (a ton of pressure per square inch where the stylus meets the groove), and so what you're hearing when you hear a Mighty Lenco, Garrard or other large idler-wheel drive - i.e. speed stability so convincing it is audible as speed stability, incredible dynamics, razor-sharp transients/speed, better imaging, incredible detail retrieval and organization of such, and so on - are the large and powerful motors, designed specifically for the task of overcoming stylus force drag (they were created when tracking pressures were in excess of ten grams). These powerful motors could and can be used due to the idler-wheel. The old boys understood fundamental engineering. Amd more so: an idler-wheel, as it wears down and changes diameter, does not affect speed, which is regulated by the motor pulley and other surface. The Teres rim-drive, in addition to necessitating a less powerful motor, will also change speed as the wheel wears down. In the end, this is still a step in the right direction, they're half-way there, and if they want to compete sonically with true idler-wheel drives, they will eventually have to start producing true idler-wheel drives.
And now Dave Pogue informs me that VPI is also entering into the act, though I don't know the details of this design. It's actually happening fellows, and it's due largely to the Lenco/DIY phenomenon which we started Lo these many years ago! To the pinheads who continue to badmouth the Lenco and attack it, I suggest they get their brains in gear (if possible) and overcome their many [largely status-oriented] prejudices, before the egg on their collective faces drowns continents (already very deep :-)). It is telling, that whenever I offer to bring a Lenco, free of charge, to challenge whatever pet they have decided is the end all and be all, they, to a man, decline. Those who are interested (intellectually curious, open-minded), contact me, not I them, and to a man, convert (and STILL they find, sometimes, excuse to atack the Lenco and go Garrard, etc...status/prejudice again, which shows prejudice is sometimes teflon). In order to preserve the Idler-Wheel Fraternity I have always refused to declare one idler-wheel 'table superior to the other, as doing so leads to the situation on VA/Yahoo Asylum. I have also tried to keep the deisgn simple (which, it turns out, is the superior way), and to showcase/demonstrate my less-than-professional early plinths, so as to encourage the participation of novices and amateurs and bring in large numbers of converts, and to avoid the number-diminishing pissing contests again a feature of Yahoo Asylum. But some day, I may break my silence on this issue. In the meantime, enjoy your idler-wheels all, whichever the type. I look forward to testing out the Rek-o-Kut Rondine when I get back, as I heard true Greatness back when I heard it in mono, over a single tube monoblock and via a sinle Quad ESL-57.
Wish me luck all (I won't post again for a while), and Vive la Lenco, Vive la Idler-Wheel, Vive its Return!! |
Hello JEAN !!
So good to get word from you... and of the world wide Lenco campaign. How very refreshing to read a long rant... been quite a while.
Good Luck in your travels - and let's hope the pieces finally come together for "The Review" !
...and DO get home safely when all is said and done !
Cheers...
Grant |
Gentlemen,
Andre Hanekom put a Garrard 301 inside a radically custom plinth fifteen years ago, and many people in the Far East have been making "monster plinths" for decades. The idea is not at all a new one, nor is direct coupling, etc. What is new is the proliferation of idler project photos on the Internet from various sources. Most of the ones that would entice a manufacturer to consider an idler option to his current lineup are those expensive Garrards exhibited by those who consider cost not to be an object. While it is true that Lenco building was partly responsible for idler interest, Lenco builders cannot lay claim to the current state of affairs regarding decisions made by manufacturers, in spite of all the hype and hoopla propagated about the Lenco's merits by certain individuals. Dropping an old turntable inside a huge block of wood sounds like a great idea, but it is not the panacea some would have you believe. It would be nice if turntable design was that easy, but that simply isn't the case.
Regards, |
Hi Jean, if nothing else, your rants are always entertaining and...long. Thanks.
I want to add some info to your Teres Rim Drive bank. To say Teres is half way there compared to the Lenco/other idlers shows your lack of understanding here. In fact, the Teres unit takes the idler into the 21st century and beyond. Removing the idler removes one more source of noise. To knock it for lack of torque is misleading and laugable. The motor for the Teres Rim Drive has an amazing amount of torque on tap AND it is adjustable! It can turn a 70+ pound platter. Yet it is small enough to be exceptionally quiet. Speed stability is tops. I have seen and heard it. The adjustable torque feature is quite handy. It allows the listener to dial in the sound that suits their taste. Want your ZYX to sound more like a Koetsu? Dial down the torque. Want a little more dynamics, simple, turn it up. All this while maintaining absolute speed control. Too much torque is as bad as too little, trust me. Very easy to hear.
As good as the Lenco motor is, the Teres motor makes the Lenco motor look and sound like the relic it is. Why does the Lenco need an 80 pound plinth? To cover up the noise and harmonics generated by our beloved four pound Lenco motor, that's why. A heavy plinth is nothing more than a Band-Aid for a noisy motor, barely adequate bearing and harmonically challenged top plate. Downside to the Teres...$1690. Then again, some would call it a bargain. I have heard less improvement in sound that cost many times more.
Having said that, I don't mean to knock the Lenco or other idlers. This is NOT an "attack the Lenco/idler thing". Things just need to be put into perspective, thats all. I own many different idlers so I can hear them for myself in my system. I don't care which table costs more or has more status. The best two sounding tables earn their way into my system. Period. I have tremendous respect for these great pieces of audio history. They still can make a lot of modern and exspensive belt drives sound absolutely broken! No question. And when on a budget, the Lenco is THE king of the hill. I will always own a Garrard 301 and 401, EMT 930 and most likely a Lenco or two. But they are not in my system. If you think that nothing can beat a Lenco, even in a giant plinth, your head is buried somewhere my friend.
Cheers, Steve
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There is a big difference between not liking the Lenco and not liking a reality-twisting gasbag. Disdaining one and appreciating the other seems to be widely practiced. |
Steve, So are you saying that you personally have compared a Teres rim driven tt to a max'd out Lenco or Garrard and that the results are resoundingly in favor of the former? If not, then aren't you being as guilty as Jean of turntable Chauvinism? But if you have done the comparison, under valid conditions, I'd like to know. |
There's more than one way to skin a cat, and as always Vetterone, you choose to ignore the reports of Lencos beating EMTs, reported by their very owners (not all Lenco implementations are created equal, I am only interested in realizing the idler potential). The 80-pound plinth a band-aid? Might as well say as well the 70-pound platter is a band-aid (used in many belt-drives, and some at even greater weight/mass... a band-aid to cover speed instabilities...if looked at Vetterone's way). Where's the difference? And if it works, then your whole argument is moot, as it is (ALL solutions to problems of implementation of systems are in this sense band-aids, like the complex electronics necessary to make direct drive work without sounding like crap). Fact is, a large inert mass is necessary to realize the Lenco potential (made potent by direct coupling), and the potential of most if not all idler-wheel drives (as the comparions between the Cain & Cain Garrard and the Giant Direct Coupled Garrard testifies). Not all implementations are created equal.
And, despite the various personalities who have tried again and again to misrepresent my activities as aimed only at promoting Lencos the better to dishonestly discredit (i.e. "misrepresent") me - "Remember all, the Mighty Lenco is merely a tool (being cheap, and this is the real reason for the attacks, not to mention lowly envy/personal attacks/gadflies) to make the Greatness of the Idler-Wheel Drive known, and this has been a tremendous success..." - I have ALWAYS made clear that the Lenco was simply a means to demonstrating to the world the greatness of the idler-wheel drive system in general. More, these idler activities and discussions of speed stability and drive systems led to such companies as Teres and now VPI to reconsider the idler-wheel drive, and led to Teres' current rim drive, much as they may deny it.
As always and since the beginning, I have nothing to hide and do not operate from blind prejudice. I encouraged the world to rebuild the Lencos away from my control and report in public their findings. This is called a search for the actual facts. Lo and behold it turned out the whole world was wrong (except for perhaps two fellows, ignored and shouted down), the Lenco WAS brilliant as I claimed, and the idler-wheel system much better than generally thought. And fact is, nothing has yet managed to even come close to a Giant Direct Coupled Lenco as I have advised be made (tricky and difficult to implement, but as Tunin4fun, the owner of a collection of Garrards and EMTs demonstrated, well worth the effort). This philosophy of truthful enquiry (i.e. get people to try it in their own systems) led, due to its incredible success, to the longest-running thread in audio history at the time it was deleted, and sparked dedicated websites. And, as I wrote, the Teres will prove itself superior - or not - to the Lenco when it is compared to a Giant Direct-Coupled Lenco in the same process of actual comparison THEN judgment, as I have written previously.
Jejune, good moniker, if you haven't heard a Lenco then just stick to your prejudices. In the meantime, I will continue to encourage actual comparisons and experience of the reality until the Lenco meets its match, and the idler wheel drive has been accurately placed in engineering history. The whole point of this review. When you have something constructive and not ugly to add, feel free to return. To those watching, I do occasionally get irritated by these constant and unecessary ugly personal attacks, and occasionally lose my cool and reply (who wouldn't?). I always regret this, but if I were NOT this way, people like Jejune would have played pile on the rabbit (as they do and in fact did in the beginning over on that other forum) and would have crushed the whole Lenco/Idler venture early on, and the current Teres rim-drive would almost certainly not exist, and many would still jump on any who dared mention an idler/rim-drive in the same breath as a belt-drive (ditto for DD), as the case was when I started, and many now converted would still be miserably listening to their over-priced belt-drives. Thanks for making my point Jejune, keep it up.
To all who are watching, I have ALWAYS put my money where my mouth is, and thrown down the gauntlet, meaning that, I leave it to actual comparison - i.e. testing the theory (say, that the Teres with its 70-pound platter as opposed to the Lenco with its 70-pound plinth is superior) - to decide the issue, not endless and ugly personal attacks of the sort put forward by, say, Jejune. I have always tried to stick to the subject - TEST the theory, compare. I have NEVER initiated ugly personal attacks, and only very rarely responded in kind (and always at a MUCH lower level of ugliness), as is a matter of public record (for those who are interested in the truth and not their own prejudices/hatreds).
So, this is the point of the Lenco review, which, assuming it is ever released from Customs and the review to proceed (I'm beginning to wonder): a first professional and OBJECTIVE review of the Lenco, which will open the door to others, as has already happened for the Garrards and the Thorenses. THEN, with the years (evidently) we will know the truth of the matter, a first review is just an opening of the door.
Now, tomorrow I head to Egypt to bring costs down and see something REALLY interesting (though Jerusalem is an enormous buzz, incredible city which has me grinning like a Cheshire cat whenever I step into the electric souk/bazaaar streets), and from there I will have only very spotty acess to the internet, so feel free to indulge in yet more ugly personal attacks concerned fellows!! Erase me from my own activities, take credit, and use my own self-defense as an excuse to develop fresh venom. For thinking men (and for venomous "men" try to rise above the muck), keep an open mind and stick to the subject: I say the idler-wheel system is the best yet devised, let's actually test this out, avoid venom, and see. The Idler Wheel Revival taking place around the world is indeed very strong evidence for this, and even Teres' new rim-drive attests to it!
And finally, for those who just don't get it: this whole audio thing is just a tiny part of my life, and rather unimportant actually, except as it pertains to truth, I'm not an Audio Trekkie. My REAL passion, evidently, is seeing the world on extended months-long and years-long voyages, having adventures in unplanned fashion, and seeing what comes next (in fact, this whole Lenco venture is an example of this itself, an unplanned Movement rising from the Void). Throw in love/romance/women, fine foods and exotic or otherwise live music, and you have Jean, trapped between trips in Canada one fine winter, out of boredom remembering the anger he felt when he realized he and the world has been duped as far as the idler was concerned (on one of these trips/adventures, in Helsinki, with a beautiful woman), and starting a thread with the words Home Despot in them. It turned out to be a tremendous success, and became an enormous responsibility, which, Bohemian as I am, I feel intensely. This is the ONLY reason - and the pursuit and demonstration of the truth - I continue with this. I have often wondered if I should just disappear, but this would be granting to various ugly characters an undeserved victory, yet another responsibility. In other words, life, love, experience, are all FAR more important that audio, but audio too is a microcosm of the world, with its battles of truth vs deception, and even here, it seems, the battle must be fought. Be nice if the battles were more often about logic and evidence though, and less often - or not at all - envy, spite and status. I do, however, TRULY look forward to the day when I can with clear conscience be free of it, maybe even by the end of this trip!
In honour of Music, which IS an important experience/activity I grant you all, I go to hear a Bach performance in a courtyard next to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre tonight, and refresh my ears as to the sound of real instruments, in an amazing setting (just the way I like it). So, Vive la Lenco (which even if it turns out not to be the best is an incredible Gift), Vive la Idler (ditto), be back participating, if at all, likely aftere the review. Enjoy your summer all!! |
Jean,
Ever since I sent you an e-mail a couple of years ago that mentioned the use of direct coupling in my DIY project, you just keep using the phrase. Is that a soundbite, or what? The idea is old as the hills, and gunmakers have used it in reference to stock bedding for an eternity, yet you lay claim to it by beating the words into the ground. Most every turntable out there is direct coupled. The Rek-O-Kut is by default, so it isn't some recent discovery among turntable manufacturers, either. Why don't you consider giving it a rest?
Regards, |
Hi Jean,
You’re quite the lightning rod, wherever in the world you are. To echo Grant’s sentiment – enjoy your travels and come back safe. Your point of where audio fits into life’s scheme is well taken. The welcoming smile from an unprestigious tolltaker is always to be valued more than the grudging nod from a titan of industry. Reviewed or not, we all know what we’ve got in the Lenco and its ability to bring smiles to the unpretentious.
While this thread teeters between becoming moribund and generating more heat than light, you’ll be happy to know that the groundswell of Lenco and Idler building continues outside borders of AudiogoN. Not only in the dedicated magnet realms that you mentioned, but also in that huge proletariat site we spoke of last year. The idler trickle-down is happening!
Funny, I’ve been through “Da” original “Thread” twice now, and I could find no place where you claimed to be the originator or inventor of any scientific principles as applied to the Lenco build. Certainly, there was a justifiable pride in application and development, but how that transforms in other minds as self-promotion is a mystery to me. More to point, it was a generous sharing of your time, effort and knowledge – a gift to individuals and to “the cause”.
“I have tremendous respect for these great pieces of audio history. They still can make a lot of modern and exspensive belt drives sound absolutely broken! No question. And when on a budget, the Lenco is THE king of the hill.”
- Steve - aka Vetterone
In reviewing the header post on what got this all started – I'd take this as a concession that you delivered the goods as promised.
Enjoy, and hope to see you when you get back.
- Mario |
"Funny, I’ve been through “Da” original “Thread” twice now, and I could find no place where you claimed to be the originator or inventor of any scientific principles as applied to the Lenco build. Certainly, there was a justifiable pride in application and development, but how that transforms in other minds as self-promotion is a mystery to me."
Mario B.
"When I started the original thread, I wanted the design as simple as it could be in order to gather fellow experimenters, and in the process discovered myself that it was not necessary to remove the motor. In fact, I discovered mass and Direct Coupling (the two go together) make a FAR larger difference to the sound, and make such acrobatics as split plinths moot (as the annihilation of the low-mass two-tier Cain & Cain plinth by my single high-mass plinth makes clear). In addition, the least difference in the geometry of the motor relative to the workings will be detrimental to the sound. Nevertheless, until I started the original thread, I had listened to my two-tier Lenco for close on 12 years. Of course, everyone is free to design as they wish, it's your baby, and the Lenco will not disappoint, as its essential ingredients will remain, all tied to its amazing speed stability (which, however, improves by Direct Coupling to a high mass)."
J. Nantais
The above is not from the original thread, but this thread. The timeline for construction techniques was changed, so that the originator of those techniques would appear to be Nantais. Those were not his discoveries, yet he lays claim to any technique posted by others.
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Hi Mosin,
It would seem that there is little to be gained by splitting semantic hairs over the meaning of “discovered” – especially since you seem to be carrying some pain and anger over this for quite some time. Had Jean written “I discovered what others had suggested to be a vast improvement” or more simply, “I discovered for myself” would he have been off the hook? But in the end, he did not write those words and you took it as slight and a “grab”.
But the word “discovered” will always be tinged with chauvinism, whether one says that Newton discovered gravity, or Columbus discovered America, or I discovered that I was too short of funds to buy my wife flowers the other day. Who discovered “direct coupling” and why does that matter?
Somehow I don’t come away from reading Jean’s posts with a sense that there’s something sinister or duplicitous going on with him. Truth be told, Mosin, in the wake of you and others showing up here – after a long absence – not to post anything positive – but to attack – that strikes me as sinister.
Civility is certainly nice when you can get it, but as I cautioned Jean many moons ago placing expectations on how others act can be a losing proposition. By the same token, expecting acknowledgement or desserts over perceived intellectual property is also a losing proposition. This is a public forum on the World-Wide-Web. What’s out is out.
If you’ve got something to share, do so with no strings attached. Otherwise, you’d do well to keep it to yourself.
All best,
Mario |
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Mario,
I agree, it depends what you are looking for. I know Jean well, being neighbors and having known him since grade 7.
We have spent many an afternoon at his place or mine just listening to music. He has helped me with 4 plinths, the very first pre-dates "Da thread" and it was an 80 lbs Plinth for my Technics SP10 MKII, and guess what, its direct coupled, then he built my Lenco, one of the few times I've posted here was to mention it and how pleased I was (am) with it. Just recently he built my TD124 plinth fitted with a 12" SME, simply put, it is work a of art. Lastly was the the plinth for my Summer garage sale find of a Garrard 301, That Plinth (Jean's old 301 plinth) is part of an amazing Turntable, fitted with a Morch UP-4 and a Decca Super Gold, it has Slam in all the right places. Haven't decided which Turntable I like the best, all I can say for the time being is that the 301 has been spinning for 6 weeks in the main room!! Thought it would be a good time to pipe-up and simply say that Jean has always been helpful, to me and dozens of local music lovers.
Whishing Jean a great trip, great review and safe return,
John T |
Wow Mosin! That’s the absolute tops of any homebrew turntable I’ve ever seen anywhere. And you accomplished this without a basement full of Chinese illegals? Absolutely stunning production quality (and I mean high-end production quality) in this build!
Thanks for sharing this Mosin, and more importantly, thanks for sucking it in and turning the corner with this courageous give-back.
One question…. what is that IC next to the power connect?
All best,
Mario
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Mosin, That's beautiful, as you appear to have been told already. Can you reveal any details regarding the internal construction? In other words, how did you go about building an idler from scratch? What is the platter made of, etc? Do you have more photos?
By the way, I am sure that Jean will appreciate your efforts as much as anyone else here. |
I just want post #500 :)
Perhaps I can say something Lenco related...
I'm fiddling with a Kenwood KA 7300 which has two phono inputs. Perhaps today I'll spin some rekkids on the Technics, and maybe gather the gumption to put Mayware back on Lenco-on-stilts. |
the production quality of Mosin's table defies and challenges the DIY. For anyone to be able to do that themselves they would need to reach beyond merely dropping an already produced table into a glued together plinth.
I am working on my idler project and am humbled by the work Mosin has done. He has really done it himself rather than drop in plug and played. |
