The URL is right there. Copy and paste into your browser.
However, some have reported that Jean's picture gallery locks up their browser. |
I'm still in the process of reviving my Bogen (Lenco imported to the USA in the early 1960s) but play my white, grease-bearing Garrard 301 almost daily.
It is GREAT that the "high-end tables cheap" mantra lives on, despite the disappearance of Jean Nantais's monster thread.
Long live the idler drive! |
Ozzy, I would say that "Despot" was intentional on Jean's part.
Is there any wonder that I shop at Lowe's? |
Widge, if there are four wires at the headshell, it's a stereo hookup there. Three wires at the tonearm to the junction might be a common-grounded stereo hookup: one hot for each channel and a shared, common ground.
My in-progress Bogen still has its factory arm. It LOOKS at first glance to have three wires from the base of the arm to a tag strip where the output cables are soldered, but it's really two small diameter coaxial cables, each with a hot and a ground; and a single ground wire. That makes a total of FIVE wires soldered to separate tags.
If yours is a three-wire stereo hookup, that's exactly the same wiring system as is used on Decca cartridges. Even the new ones with four pins actually have the two ground pins tied together.
It should be easy enough to trace what goes where, using an ohm meter. |
THOUGHT it was a 500C, as soon as you mentioned 7591 tubes. The Fisher 400...no "C", never had one...used the even scarcer 7868.
At least the 7591 is available in a current version from a Russian factory.
A relative of mine bought his system in 1964 or so, brand new: Fisher 500C, Garrard 401, SME 3009/Pickering V15/AME-2, Wharfedale W70. He was smart enough to bolt the 401 to a solid, one-inch thick slab of hardwood, which was glued to another one-inch thick slab, underneath. He still has the whole setup, but with a modern cartridge. |
The same result, reduced vibration with lowered operating voltage, was observed in the Garrard 301 and 401 many years ago.
Something like 90 volts or so (in the USA where 117 volts is nominally "Normal") was generally considered optimal. |
Eico HF-87 is legendary. Any time you have a chance to get one at a reasonable price, don't pass it up!
Of course since many were built from kits, workmanship can vary, but we're not going to be putting them into service without some upgrading and reworking, so workmanship and soldering issues can be easily addressed. |
With the Decca, adding mass to the headshell seems to be the most effective, in my experience.
I have observed this with the modified Rabco SL-8E on my Garrard 301, and with a homebuilt Well Tempered clone that was on my modified AR belt-drive. On both of them, adding mass to the headshell improved bass definition and extension, and imaging. I am guessing that since the Decca throws a lot of energy back into the arm, added mass would tend to reduce the effect of that energy, otherwise more of it would get various vibration modes going in the arm itself. Just my guess... |
On the 401 the eddy current disc should run true to avoid generating vibration, because the braking magnet is only on one side of the disc. The 301 magnetic brake is a horse-shoe shaped affair with the magnetic force transferred from the magnet itself via the two "legs" of the horseshoe, which "straddle" the eddy current disc so that if the disc wobbles a little, the effect is minimized: as the disc moves toward one "leg" it moves away from the other and vibration cancels out.
Good luck with straightening the disc on your 401. Very occasionally someone will "part-out" a 401 and sell the parts on E***. |
A typical 401 runs fast without the magnetic brake, so if you remove it, you need to reduce the turntable's speed. Other than a variac which reduces torque and motor RPM (and thus motor inertia) another way to alter the speed downward so it's accurate is to CAREFULLY turn down the step on the motor pulley. You can do this with a small metalworking file as the motor and pulley spin, checking frequently to see how the speed is being affected. I'd stop when you reach around 0.3% fast. Do all this when the motor is fully warmed up; it will run slow at first when you turn it on cold (probably still within 1%) but will speed back up as it warms up.
Since the motor will be spinning at close to 1800 rpm as you work on it, the end result will be perfectly concentric.
I'd recommend buying a replacement pulley from one of the vendors on E*** selling new ones, grinding it down, and keeping your original in a safe place. |
Participants in this forum may be interested in an article by Garrard chief engineer E. W. Mortimer, in the July 1967 issue of Component Technology magazine, a technical publication of the Plessey Group, which owned Garrard at the time.
Go to:
http://home.earthlink.net/~transcrubbers/id18.html |
Plastic idler, or metal?
For years I haven't seen a single plastic idler whose rubber is still usable. That stuff hardens and inevitably makes for rough spots.
If it's a metal idler and it is developing noise due to rough or hardened rubber, you can have it rebuilt by any of several suppliers. If it is a plastic idler, you will HAVE to get that done. |
The following, about overhauling the main (spindle) bearing, is from Sander Mommers on the Lenco Lovers forum at
http://www.lenco-lovers.com/forum/
=================================================
Main bearings.. here's how I do it.
First, see if the existing bushings can be re-used or not, this depends on how much play they have.
Put your fingers on top of the plateau, one hand on each side.
Push down gently alternately left and right, and see how much the plateau moves. If you can hear "clunk clunk" when you do this, the existing bushings are worn, and need replacing.
In my experience, it is very rare that the original bearing bushings are still good, as a matter of fact, I have replaced the bushings in all the bearings so far.
New bushings
Get some Oilite bronze bearing bushings from your local bearing shop. The size you need is 9 x 12, 14 mm long, and you need two of those. They should cost around $5. each. Soak the bushings in the oil you are going to use for a couple of days. (more on oil later)
Remove the screw on the side of the bearing, pull out the shaft. If the ball came with it, take it off and put it in a safe place. If not, turn the bearing upside down and tap on the table to dislodge it. Now, remove the circlip from the bottom with special circlip pliers. If you don't have those, small needle nose pliers will work too. If necessary, file or grind the tips down so that they fit inside the small holes in the circlip. Two small screwdrivers works too, but that is definitely more awkward.
Anyway.. get the blessed thing out somehow, by squeezing the ends of the circlip towards each other. Preferentially, don't do too much damage to the brass housing and the groove it sits in.
Remove the bottom plates, and measure how far "in" the bottom bearing sleeve sits with respect to the end of the brass housing. This should be 7 mm. You can now remove the old bushings. Find a suitable tool to push them out with. I use a long M6 Bolt. The head is just under 12 mm, and thus it fits inside the 12 mm bearing housing. Start by inserting the head of the bolt into the bottom of the housing. Holding the housing in your hand, gently tap on the bolt with a small hammer. The sleeve will start to move inwards. Keep going until it hits the other sleeve. Things will get a bit harder, because now you have to move two bushings, but they will come out this way. In hard cases, put the housing upside-down in an opened vise and hammer downward until both sleeves have fallen out..
Now, thoroughly clean the housing. I use a solvent (hexane, acetone) and an ultrasonic bath, or soak a kleenex in solvent and pull it through a few times. Make sure the housing is clean, and has no lint or other stuff in it.
Push in the new sleeves from each end, until they are flush with the housing. It is very important not to damage the sleeves in any way when you do this. If you are going to use a small hammer, put a small piece of wood between the hammer and the sleeve. Now, the bottom sleeve has to be tapped in some more. Put the thick bottom plate of the bearing on top of the sleeve, and push/hammer down. That was 2 mm. Now, find an M6 nut of 5 mm thick, put that on top and push/hammer until flush.
The sleeve is now exactly 7 mm down into the housing.
Polishing the spindle.
Put the spindle with the narrow end in a drill. apply jeweler's rouge to the rest, and squeeze the spindle in a cloth (old jeans are great) Now run the drill for a few seconds and voila. Repeat until the shaft is perfectly shiny, with no sign of scratches or anything. Clean the spindle with solvent (alcohol) to get rid of every last bit of jeweler's rouge.
Put a bit of oil on the haft, and verify that it slides and rotates freely in the bushings, without "binding" anywhere.
What kind of oil.....
There are many kinds of oil. For a spindle bearing you want something that is not too thin. I have used synthetic 5w40 motor oil. Some people say that synthetic is better, because it does not "cake" over time. Thin oil will feel like less friction if you hold the bearing in your hand, but that can be deceptive. You want a QUIET bearing, and that is not necessarily the same as frictionless. The idea is that there is always a layer of oil between the metals, to avoid "grinding" metal to metal. The idea of the Lenco bearing is that the weight is taken by the ball, and that there is very little sideways force on the bearing. This is only true when the plateau is LEVEL and perfectly balanced. You want an oil that is thick enough to keep a film between the metals even in a case where there is SOME sideways force on the bearing. I go for quiet, as tested with a stethoscope on the frame next to the plateau while spinning the plateau.
The silent oil wins.... I have used synthetic 5W40 motor oil, and some oils I had around at work: Edwards vacuum pump oil, Leybold and Balzers turbo-molecular pump oil. Van Den Hul sells an interesting oil for spindle bearings, with 1 micron little balls in it. I have ordered some, but I have not received it yet. It has become evident that each bearing has it's favorite.. One liked Balzers TL011, and another one was happier with the slightly thicker Leybold HE500. I'm guessing it depends on the clearance between shaft and bushings...
New bottom plate ?
Most people replace the old grey bottom plate with a hard steel disc of 12 mm diameter. The original plastic plate usually has a big dimple in it, caused by the ball. If you replace it with a metal plate, aim for something of the same thickness as the original, 0.6 mm. Others just turn the original plate upside down to get a "new" surface for the ball.
Putting it together...
New pressure plate or not, put the two bottom plates and the snap ring back in. I put a snug fitting plastic cap (without a hole, like the lenco ones have..) over the bottom of the bearing, to catch any oil spills. To dispense the oil, I use a 5 cc syringe with a thick needle (1.25 mm, I forgot to look at the Gage number) The point has been cut from the needle with a dremel tool and all burrs removed, because I don't want to scratch anything. I squirt about 2cc's of oil in the bottom of the bearing, drop the ball in, and push the spindle in. Some oil will ooze out of the bottom, and push the cap down somewhat. Now, I inject oil through the screw hole in the side, until that cavity is full of oil, and put the screw in. While holding down the spindle, I push the cap back up. Some oil will escape from the cap, wipe it off. We now have a permanently lubricated bearing with two oil reservoirs, one below each sleeve.
Time for the noise test.....
Not dead silent?? no panic. try a different oil or perhaps a tiny bit of dirt got in somehow.
For one particularly obnoxious bearing I had to resort to "wearing it in" by spinning the shaft in a drill at full speed for a minute or two, followed by a re-polishing of the shaft to get it silent.
At the end of all this you have a 100% silent bearing without any play. Better than new, I would say.
If it sounds like a lot of work.. it is, but it is well worth it.
_________________
Sander Mommers
(Have Lenco - will travel) |
Curiously the ADC K8 was primarily INTENDED by its maker, by then a subsidiary of turntable manufacturer BSR, for use in idler-drive tables...as it was standard equipment in quite a number of BSR record changers, many of them inexpensive at that! When matched up with a good turntable and arm, it could really strut its stuff. Last time I used one (it was a K8E elliptical) I found its secure tracking and smooth high end to be quite pleasant, though compared to my usual cartridge, the Decca Super Gold, I could detect a bit more "cantilever haze" than on most MM cartridges. Or maybe I THOUGHT I did; the ADC stylus design is not as rigidly constrained from moving longitudinally as are the Stanton and Shure styli with their restraint wire built into the stylus assembly. |
THANKS, Mario.
Unfortunately the original PVC tire disintegrated and is no longer in existence. The best I can do is to measure a known good, metal idler for diameter and include a photograph showing the tire's profile. |
Postings are indeed reviewed, which became apparent when the original Home Despot thread met an untimely, and some still suspect, conspiratorial end. Postings to this, new forum that challenged the "official" version of the destruction of the original Home Despot thread, often were not approved. |
Grant, have you any experience with Ed Crockett's rebuilds of idler wheels? I have a plastic idler from a Bogen B-61; the PVC tire has long since perished and cracked, and fallen off. It's gone; I didn't keep it around once it went.
Also, sooner or later I will need to have the idler on my Garrard 301 turntable rebuilt. I still have a new one that I got from British Industries Corp., way back when the Carduners owned the company; it's still in new condition and perfect, but it might be time to get the old one that's been in the turntable restored, after all this time, probably fifty years or so. |
"...It seems that there is something then to rubber damping and decoupling designs. Almost has one wondering if there are some quick and dirty opportunities to incorporate this methodology on to other arms we like..."
Not hard to do, actually! A homebuilt tonearm I made many years ago, had rubber counterweight decoupling. The rear counterweight stub was a piece of 1/4 inch threaded rod, the counterweight itself was glued-together steel washers whose holes cleared the threaded rod. I glued rubber motor isolation mounts from the common Garrard record changers on the ends of the counterweight. Their center holes (sorry...Garrard was British, make that "centre" holes :-) ) just happened to "thread" onto the counterweight stub, so that the counterweight could be rotated on the threads to set it...and so the counterweight was rubber-isolated!
Even the ESL arm from early stereo days, had rubber decoupling of the counterweight. |
Johnnantais wrote:
" So, for those who own Garrards, it might be something to try to get a step-up transformer - assuming you have the "original" European wheels - and try this out to see if it makes an improvement."
If one is in the USA or Canada or anywhere else where the AC line frequency is 60Hz, the "European wheels" (assuming he means "motor pulley") are not necessary. The rotation of the motor is primarily dependent upon the line frequency. It would only be necessary to change the position of the links in the voltage changeover block to adapt a Garrard 301 or 401 to 220V-240V/60Hz. The idler wheels do not differ between 60Hz and 50Hz, or 120V/240V.
I might suspect some difference between 50Hz and 60Hz operation, though. At 60Hz the motor is spinning 20% faster, perhaps increasing the "flywheel effect" of the motor's armature. |
Artd wrote:
"It seems the Lenco Lovers site was not taken down by the Administration, but was the victim of a very professional hit job. Apparently all data has been deleted and the chances of any being recovered is slight..."
To a forum user (not an administrator) this sounds uncannily similar to what mysteriously happened to the ORIGINAL Home Despot thread at Audiogon.
It rather makes one wonder if there really is an anti-idler conspiracy, after all! |
Just so everyone knows, the move of Lenco Heaven off ProBoards to a new, dedicated site is complete.
New URL:
http://www.lencoheaven.net/ |
Since there's no activity over here, I may as well direct you to an interesting project involving a stripped-down Lenco idler drive and platter, being coupled via an idler wheel to a second, passive platter on which records are played.
The only physical connection between the two platters are via the idler wheel, and the long-way-round via the shelves on which the mechanisms are mounted, and the wall on which the shelves are mounted.
Go over to Lenco Heaven (maybe that's where everyone has gone, anyway) and take a look:
http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=486.msg4695#new |
"New Lenco LLC" to produce new Lenco idler turntables
============================================
News Release
April 1, 2009
In a world seemingly gone to digital disc and downloads, the latest news in the revival of the LP phonograph record is the incorporation of "New Lenco LLC" with corporate offices in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
New Lenco LLC has a manufacturing joint-venture partner in China who will manufacture new turntables following the well-regarded vertical idler-wheel designs of Lenco AG of Oberburg, Switzerland, which built record playing equipment until it became insolvent. The current owner of the Lenco brand, the STL Group of the Netherlands, has licensed the name to New Lenco solely for equipment used to play phonograph records.
Consultants to New Lenco include audiophile Jean Nantais, who has long advised stereo enthusiasts to recondition and upgrade turntables built by the original Lenco AG, some almost a half-century old, to attain results rivaling the best turntables available today. Nantais sponsored a long-running Internet discussion thread about rebuilding Lenco turntables, which became the longest-running such audio-related thread since Al Gore fathered the Internet. As a result, Lencos have become legendary. Richard Steinfeld, an expert in phonographic equipment from Berkeley CA., writes, "The cast platter machines bring the Lenco design very close to the audiophile realm, and can make for a very satisfying turntable." In an Internet article on the 6Moons website, Srajan Ebaen writes that carefully-reworked vintage Lencos have replaced high-priced turntables belonging to high-end audiophiles. "Some of these folks already owned hi-cred tables. Their hi-massed Lencos either stomped their modern decks or pulled even - for a lot less money."
Longtime audio writer I. Lirpa, best known for his contributions to the lamented Audio Magazine, will serve in a consulting role to New Lenco as it plans and implements production of turntables for worldwide sale. The first New Lenco turntable is expected to be available at dealers in about a year. |
Incredible...A Google search for "Lenco LLC"...which is the name of a company in Newington, CT...now turns up the above April Fool's post, " "New Lenco LLC" to produce new Lenco idler turntables."
Meanwhile, I'm a bit puzzled as to the inactivity here, while Lenco Heaven is lively with new and interesting material every day. |
Internet audio critic Arthur Salvatore is planning an audition of two Lenco-based custom-built turntables (one is a heavy, multi-platter Lenco with a Graham Phantom arm) against a Kuzma, with air-line tonearm, and a Forsell.
He will report on the results at his website www.high-endaudio.com and in the meantime has posted information about the planned comparison listening at Lenco Heaven http://www.lencoheaven.net
I am not going to post anything further here; go to the referenced websites if you wish to read more. |
Arthur Salvatore has posted his preliminary impressions from critical listening to a tweaked, rebearinged and replinthed (looks like a Jean Nantais) Lenco idler-drive turntable, with a Graham Phantom II arm.
Salvatore has already reported that the Lenco/Graham was a better turntable than the Forsell, his longtime reference and itself no slouch.
Excerpts:
"I feel it is "highly probable" that the Lenco/Graham is the finest turntable/tonearm combination I've ever heard in my system (or anywhere else for the matter)...
"...At any one time, I have heard the Lenco/Graham Phantom II outperform, or at least equal, every other turntable/tonearm combination in my experience, at any price, and in every single sonic parameter. In fact, there is not one area where I can criticize it, when I have heard it at its best (with maybe the possible exception of lateral width, but only "maybe"). I find this state of affairs both amazing and inspiring.
"However, it is also important to state this contrasting fact: I have still yet to hear this combination do everything, at its best, all at the same time. This is why I am so frustrated, and also hesitant to make a definitive declaration. Still, I am confident that I can, eventually, and with some help, achieve this complete optimization. When I do, the critical details will be revealed and the highly deserved celebrations can begin, because it will indeed be an audio achievement to celebrate."
Of course, this virtually guarantees that those reviewers who are Salvatore enemies will try out a box-stock 1960 Bogen B-61 with an old slipping idler wheel and say it sounds like a 1950s kiddie phono compared to their latest monstrosity with a price into six figures.
Or they will assume the ostrich position ("I don't see how...") without LISTENING.
In any event, prices of Lencos are about to rise.
References: Salvatore's site
http://www.high-endaudio.com/RECENT.html
Lenco Heaven:
http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=2348.75
|
Photos of what he says is a close duplicate to what he is listening to, were posted at Lenco Heaven.
It's based on a standard Lenco chassis on a large wooden plinth. It has a special upgrade bearing, added platter mass and a metacrylic mat. Tonearm is a Graham Phantom II. The only differences his will have are the record clamp and the phono interconnect cables.
A second test MIGHT be done using the PTP and a slate plinth, but quite some time after the first Lenco shootout. |
On his HighEnd Audio website, Arthur Salvatore has added some information about his listening experience with a Jean Nantais "Reference" Lenco. He describes in detail, the areas in which the Lenco outperformed his prior reference...which is to say, how the Lenco proved itself the best turntable he has ever heard.
Go and take a look!
http://www.high-endaudio.com/RECENT.html
And there is still more to come, because for now, he concludes with "To be Continued!" |
Latest from Arthur Salvatore on his auditioning of a Jean Nantais Lenco is that his prior audition was with a Lenco that wasn't quite up to snuff. It had a problem with the idler spring.
Jean Nantais fixed that and the result:
"This is what I can state at this time: With the turntable and tonearm now optimized (though maybe the tonearm is still not "perfect"), this combination is definitely the finest I've ever heard in my system (or anywhere else)."
Further, he says that the performance of the Jean Nantais Lenco is "unprecedented".
This means a carefully tweaked Lenco just might be the best turntable in the world!
Full update is at Salvatore's HighEndAudio site, or on Lenco Heaven. |
Cleopatra 52: "Now, if Jean could just come up with a permanent fix to that resonating spring to which Arthur refers (a fix I understand Jean has developed) Lenco supremacy will be assured."
A ways back I thought up an idea for an electromagnetic tensioner for the Lenco idler arm, whereby a solenoid would provide a magnetic force via a moving armature, which would be solidly linked to the Lenco idler arm...no spring. If the magnetic force were properly governed and the solenoid could be made to operate silently, without introducing vibration into the idler system (most solenoids make noise as the armature moves back and forth), it could be just what's needed, but at a cost: a much greater level of complexity. The Lenco spring whose only function is to get the idler into engagement with the motor and platter; and the self-engaging design of its idler (and of any properly-designed idler) that generates most of its grip from the rotation of the motor shaft, is SO elegant in its simplicity. |
Arthur Salvatore has updated his comments about the Jean Nantais Lenco at his site:
http://www.high-endaudio.com/
It is in the Recent File (and the Reference Turntable File).
NOBODY here is so lazy as to read just this one line and not go to read the rest, so I don't feel amiss in quoting Arthur:
"This is the finest turntable I have ever heard." |
"WoW!!!! What an amazing thread this has been! "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So I take it that since Jean has departed, the thread is dead?
Isn't there anything we can do here to keep improving the Lenco? Or has all that activity gone to Lenco Heaven and Lenco Référence (French)? |
Jean Nantais has a new website:
Turntables by Jean Nantais
http://www.idler-wheel-drive.com |
