My ode to the great bulk degausser was its possible role in curing my Rega 300 of mistracking a year or so back. After removing the hematite slug from the Rega’s anti-skate enclosure, I exposed the entire stub end to lengthy zaps from my demagger. Because I had fiddled with a couple of other variables at the time (including readjusting the Cardas wire at the downturn), I can’t say for certain that the degausser negated some magnetic charge that this Rega might have picked up from some improper storage somewhere (next to some huge speaker magnet?). But I’m open to the possibility that it might have taken care of the problem.
A few words in remembrance of the passing of the Athena AS series speakers, a modern design “budget” speaker that dared to move air with the “Big Boys” costing four times as much. They are gone - vanished from just about every supplier. Athena Technologies, along with a two other Canadian speaker manufacturers under the API umbrella were taken over by the Klipsh Group some 15 months ago. The AS line (Audition Series) was allowed to deplete without replenishment. The “replacement” for Athena’s top-of-the line AS-F2 floorstanders is the LS-500 (LS=Lower Standards?). Here are the specs for comparison:
AS-F2: 1” Teteron dome tweeter; Dual 8" Injection Molded Polypropylene with Rubber Surround; Front-firing bass reflex port; Sensitivity @ 93dbs; Frequency Response 35Hz-20kHz. Weight 51 lbs.
LS-500: 1” aluminum dome tweeter; Dual 6 1/2" Composite Fiberglas™ Cones; Sensitivity @ 90dbs: Frequency Response 30Hz-20kHz. Weight 32 lbs.
When an old established speaker company, buys up a young upstart and eviscerates its flagship product line, it can be said to be uncompetitive, if not predatory. To be fair, I have not auditioned the new LS-500, and so I cannot lay these pejorative claims at Klipsh’s doorstep. However, the specs do raise an eyebrow, and I would encourage folks to audition Klipsh’s replacement offerings and write to the company with their views. This goes for fans of Mirage and Energy speakers as well. Canada has earned too great a reputation in speaker manufacturing to watch it begin to go asunder without comment.
- Mario |
Hi RFG, thanks for the input!! Haven't read a discovery post like this one for a long time now, I remember when the original thread was punctuated with just such regular reports from new converts, ah those were the days when nobody but an intrepid few dared try or believe! Kudos to you for giving it a go! Of course, being an "extremist" ;-), I will continue to say that the Lenco, maximized (there are Lencos and there are LENCOS), will outperform the best currently available, especially in that sense of rightness you write about, and if it ain't about rightness, then what is it about?!? Great post.
One recipient of one of my Giant Direct Coupled Glass-Reinforced Lencos has recently reported a big improvement in sound by substituting Stillpoints for my usual cheap-but-effective 3/8"/16 carriage bolts solution. Will have to see just how much more we can continue to squeeze out of these Mighty Machines!!
On the budget front, great news ot report: my Satin M-117 removeable-stylus HO MC (yes!!!! weird cartridge!), from which I always heard the potential for Great Things (about $200 when available, no longer made, rare as hen's teeth), when matched to my own rewired $200 Sonus tonearm (usual Cardas/Petra mix), has matched, or close to, the Mighty JMW 10.5/Ortofon Jubilee combo!! The Satin, though plastic, is extremely heavy, and who knew that this Beast would sound so great on an ultra low-mass unipivot?!? But, FINALLY, bass to match that of the Denon (Satin always being fuzzy in the bass before), allied to close to the detail of the Ortofon (and this with a conical tip!!), and with a HUGE dose of Magic. Obviously the Satin was also a high-compliance cartridge, what an oddball. But its sound is SO magical, even before when the bass was weak (on heavier tonearms), that I always thought it might have the legendary alnico magnets in its engine. If anyone knows anything about the Satin range of cartridges, please report to this thread!! Anyway, the point being, that at the budget/vintage point, it is possible by fortuitous matching to find combos that can duke it out with the current extreme/$$$ High End. Tonight I try out the MAS 282/Grado Reference Master to see how that works out, the MAS itself being one ingredient in the lost lamented days of the Kundfalini Effect in my living room.
On another budget front, I just picked up the Big Brothers to the fab Yamaha 625s I used to rave about back in the days of the Kundalini Effect (along with the MAS/Grado Platinum), the Yamaha NS-690s. These speakers also have the ability to raise the hairs on the body, and I sense soon a return to the Kundalini Effect. The 600 line of Yamaha speakers belonged to the famed NS-1000 line, and are extremely well-built, with the heftiest drivers I've so far encountered (with massive magnets and massive die-cast metal face plates and baskets, and extensive bracing and HUGE crossover components), and the 690 was the top model before the NS-1000 and variants, and in fact has more bass, going down to 40 Hz vs only 55 Hz for the NS-1000s (studio monitors), so some might prefer the greater richness of the NS-690s. The NS-690 has a large dome midrange driver, and a 12" paper woofer in massive basket, being an acoustic suspension design. Gawd these speakers are musical!! And I'm STILL astounded that the little shoe-box Sony amps from the '60s can drive these difficult acoustic suspension designs so easily, while today it takes the likes of Bryston and so on to do the same thing, but with less swing!!!
And speaking of musical/magical speakers, I had written a while back about the Klipsch takeover of the Athena line of fabulously musical speakers. So Mario, they've begun to water down their inherent Musical Greatness have they?!? AND the truly great Mirage line, BOO-HOO. As a testimonial I'll dig out my Athena SP-3s and set them up again and write them up. I also know where to find a lingering pair of new RT-5s and RT-9s, should haste me over there soon and get them, as the RTS-5s were SO musical I rarely hit the sack before 1 am, unable to leave the soundroom!! The RTS-5 were just one model up from the famed RRTS-3s which Harry Pearson fell in love with and regularly wrote up back in the day.
Anyway, have fun all, and don't hesitate to join the growing Lenco Army, which marches with such perfect rhythm and timing and POWER :-). I can't believe that after years of successes, conversions, and such a deep effect on the analogue industry and the analogue landscape, that the cost of Lencos still remains extremely low relative to the pricier Garrards and EMTS!! But good news to all the budding and potential Lenco-philes, as economic conditions are about the same as they were back four years ago (except the days of $25 Decca tonearms are over) when I threw down the gauntlet and dared the world to take the Lenco Challenge (but now we know much more about how to maximize these beasts and extract much more!!!), back when the Lenco was considered the WORST turntable in the world and I was considered insane (this, at least, hasn't changed ;-))! Vive la Lenco, Vive la Idler Wheel, Endless Rightness (thanks RFG)!! |
Hi all, just a reiteration of a previous rave on piece of vintage audio: the fabulous MAS 282 tonearm!! After playing with the Sonus and the Audio Technica ATP-12, both of which came close to the JMW-10.5/Ortofn Jubilee combo, I mounted the MAS and set my Grado Woody up on that. Once again this combo SLAMMED, with bass which might in fact be more powerful than the fab JMW/Jubilee combo (and even the high-end experts agree the Jubilee may have the best bass in the business), and which in terms of dynamics is absolutely rivetting, along with the sense of togetherness/gestalt and PRaT. But then I set up the Ortofon M15E Super MM (the leading and first cartridge in the VMS range, though VMS is not in the moniker), which seemed to surpass even the Grado Statement Master for resolution, if not for the Wowie-Zowie Decca-like sense of excitement. In fact, the MAS/M15 combo came closest so far to the JMW/Jubilee combo in terms of detail/resolution/transparency, surpassing even the Mighty RS-A1 Denon DL-103E combo!!! I used a live recording of Carmen MacRae, and only the JMW/Ortofon and MAS/Ortofon M15E/or MAS/Grado managed to resolve the crowd and associated back-stage and stage noises (recorded in a club).
What's truly interesting is that the MAS uses a technique patented by none other than Lenco: the rubber-decoupled counterweight end-stub, though done to a higher and more solid standard than that which came with the Lenco L782 and L75s. Obviously, the whole device is to a higher standard than the Lenco tonearms. Having done some research as to why this arm was so good, I discovered the design was done by the designer of the Linn tonearms, Mr. Ito, whose specialty was most specifically bearings, and the MAS bearings are superb. Ito gave his name the Ittok and the Akito tonearms. Now, these arms are alternately respected and dismissed, and perhaps the MAS tonerarm is a bit of a fortuitous luck, being the result of combining a low-mass (but very stiff and strong arrangement, apparently a sturdy graphite tonearm tube and sturdy/strong plastic headshell) with the Lenco's decoupled counterweight design, the bearings doing the last bit to extract even better detail than the unipivot Sonus, which should in fact be borderline impossible (especially considering the Sonus is rewired with my favourite Cardas/Petra combo, soldered, while the MAS has the original internal wiring and removable headshell, and so should be at a disadvantage)!!
Back when I had tracked down a case of fifty, but in the end I only found and sold a few, but those who have these need to replace the crappy tonearm cable which comes with them and substitute something better, and try quality MMs with them. To reiterate, so far the biggest surprise in vintage tonearms I have experienced are these MAS 282 tonearms!
Next up, the Rega on an Ipe tonearm board (a very heavy exotic wood I'm hoping will surpass my fave walnut and give the Rega a leg up) and the lovely Athena Technologies SP-3 three-way top-of-the-line speakers (but still budget ;-), if unavailable). Have fun all! |
"What's truly interesting is that the MAS uses a technique patented by none other than Lenco: the rubber-decoupled counterweight end-stub"
Sorry John, no rubber in Lenco tonearm end-stub, only a piano wire that connects it to the main wand.....
Cheers,
François. |
Thanks for your input Francois, it's been a looooonnnggg time since I played with a Lenco tonearm, the only one I ever rewired was back in '92 when I first discovered the Idler, then found my first Mighty Lenco!! That tonearm I also modified by gluing a better headshell in the front, with epoxy-resin (I found one which fit snuggly into the drilled-out end), and via advertising at the back of British audio mags found the address of Technical & General for new armblocks. The end result was quite good as I recall.
So I guess the MAS tonearm is excellent for reasons all its own ;-). On another budget front, I just cleaned up a Sony 1130 integrated, truly a work of engineering art with matched capacitors and so forth, and it came within a hair of matching the top-of-the-line Sony 2000F preamp/TA-3140F combo which is my current reference!! Lots o fpower too for those looking for audiophile sound and Party Punch on a budget!! Weighs a ton. Have fun all, want to check out my Piezo YM-308 MKII next :-). |
The MAS 282 sounds like an interesting tonearm. At first I thought John you made a typo and were referring to the ultra rare (read ultra expensive) Micro MAX 282. An arm I once had and now regret selling, it was one of the most dynamic, pure sounding arm I have ever heard and it also has a rubber decoupling to mount the counterweight on the arm tube. I always thought though that the counterweight sagged just a tad, maybe age, maybe design.
Also the Sony PUA-7 and PUA-9 have a similar design and the PUA-7 is a ridiculously good sounding arm for the money, I have not heard the PUA-9 and would be interested to know if anyone else on this thread has heard that arm. Also the Ikeda arms use a rubber (or similar compound) O-ring between counterweight and arm tubes, and probably there are other designs like this out there?
It seems that there is something then to rubber damping and decoupling designs. Almost has one wondering if there are some quick and dirty opportunities to incorporate this methodology on to other arms we like.
Steve in Ottawa |
"...It seems that there is something then to rubber damping and decoupling designs. Almost has one wondering if there are some quick and dirty opportunities to incorporate this methodology on to other arms we like..."
Not hard to do, actually! A homebuilt tonearm I made many years ago, had rubber counterweight decoupling. The rear counterweight stub was a piece of 1/4 inch threaded rod, the counterweight itself was glued-together steel washers whose holes cleared the threaded rod. I glued rubber motor isolation mounts from the common Garrard record changers on the ends of the counterweight. Their center holes (sorry...Garrard was British, make that "centre" holes :-) ) just happened to "thread" onto the counterweight stub, so that the counterweight could be rotated on the threads to set it...and so the counterweight was rubber-isolated!
Even the ESL arm from early stereo days, had rubber decoupling of the counterweight. |
What Steve, tupo, me ;-)?!? Actually, many of these rubber-decoupled tonearms do sag over time, but it doesn't seem to affect performance unless of course it's extreme. I too found the Sony PUA tonearms to be superb, but each one I got had a broken antiskate thread, difficult to fix in this particular tonearm, though I should get off my ass and fix it. When I first discovered just how good the Sony 2250 was, I mounted a PUA-286 to it and matched an Audio Technica OC-9 to that, and the resulting sound was stunningly pure, delicate and filigree-detailed. No rubber decoupling on these particular tonearms however. Be interesting to do some experiments as you say and see if this technique improves many tonearms. The Lenco tonearm's piano-wire goes some ways to decoupling, and so incorporates the idea if not the method (and also often sags over time). Anyway, more MAS experiments ahead, tonight the Piezo YM-308 MKII, one of the most detailed MMs I've ever heard.
A friend of mine with one of the best systems I've ever heard, though largely budget (heavily-modified legendary Superphon Revelation Dual Mono, 20-watt budget Wave 20 Antique Sound Lab monoblocks, big brothers to the legendary Wave 8s, JSE Infinite Slope Model .8 speakers, and of course Lencos), recently discovered the Greatness of vintage Sony electronics! I always thought much of his system's performance was due to the Giant Killer Superphon preamp, but when we inserted the Sony TAE-5450 preamp in his system, the performance went up a few notches, to the point where it sounded like a $10K no-holds-barred tube preamplifier. The sound was so BIG (walk-in soundstage)and pristine and smoooottthhhhh, with truly juicy and punchy bass. The TAE-5450 is a V-fet preamp, and V-fet were called the tubes of the silicon world, and in this system, rightly so. Now he has to have one.
Good to hear from you again Gene, and to the rest, have fun all, as always!! |
Hello all, back with some more audio experimentation and information. First of all, I resurrected my Piezo YM-308 MKII MM, apparently a moving iron like the Grados, and was greeted with the same tremendous resolution of fine detail as always hit me with back in the days of the original thread. Truly stunning amounts of fine detail reminiscent of high-end LOMCs, but without quite the edge or speed of the best MCs. But, this is a plus in some systems, like say with my Athena Technologies SP-3s (their top-of-the-line before the Klipsch takeover), where the softer edges make the YM-308 MKII the Cartridge of the Day; while the JMW 10.5/Ortofon Jubilee comes across as grainy. This is because, like the Klipsch, the Athenas are horn-loaded (though not nearly as extreme as the Klipsches), and so benefit from MMs and tube electronics. I think I'll order the hundred-buck-tube-monoblock kits from Antique Electronic Supply to run both my Athenas and my Klipsch Heresy MKI (the ones with the metal horns). I remember a friend of mine bought these 8-watt wonders and they utterly outperformed a megabuck Class A SS amp when backing pricey Tetra loudpseakers and fronted by an upper-end Sonic Frontiers preamp, with, of course, a Lenco doing the grunt-work. Don't feel like spending lots of dough, and now that the amazing Antique Sound Lab Wave 8 8-watt monoblocks are no available, then the AES amps are it. Definitely worth the cost, absolutely incredible results provided they are matched to sympathetic speakers, which include true high-end speakers. Replace key capacitors with audiophile-grade ones to make the most of them. Fun too, being kits, AND cheap.
With my more neutral/refined Yamahas and ESS speakers, however, the Ortofon Jubilee is the Cartridge of the Day, as the Piezo's softer presentation becomes too much of a good thing in my very tubey-sounding system using the fab vintage SS Sony electronics. The Piezo doesn't have the slam and excitement of the Grado Woody, or the transient speed of the Ortofon M15E Super MKII, perhaps my overall fave vintage MM of All Time, with the warmth and magic of Grados and stunning resolution to boot, superior to that achievable by the Grados. The Sonus/Mayware tonearm matched to the Satin M-117 HOMC (with conical tip and replaceable stylus assembly as with MMs) takes the all-time Prime Position at the moment as overall the most musical, magical and detailed (and all this with a conical tip!!!), and - FINALLY - I have managed to track down another Satin M-117, this time a "Z", an extreme stylus profile. Whew, this might crush my Jubilee, we'll have to wait and see. Keep your eyes open for these Satin gems all, they do exist, though they seem to be as rare as the Piezos.
I'm going to start construction of a sand-box to place under my unsuspended idler-wheel drives and report on the results: hopefully all the speed and focus of unsuspended designs will remain, while all extraneous noise - which includes audio feedback in the lower frequencies, a real danger with unsuspended idler-wheel drives (the ONLY way to go), especially with low-mass unipivots and MMs - will be filtered out. Can't wait!!
Getting back to the Athena Technology speakers, previously known as Sound Dynamics (essentially identical designs in terms of crossovers) where their RTS-3 bookshelf model wowed Harry Pearson (a budget wonder getting rave reviews from him, a miracle!), these have the same Supreme way with PraT I remember from back in the Golden Days of my Antique Soudn Lab Wave 8/Sound Dynamic RTS-5 combo, which counts as one of the most musically-successful systems I ever owned: endless all-night listening sessions which had me dragging my exhausted feet to work. When I hooked them up to the Lenco/MAS/YM-308 MKII, the music was irresistable and melted me in my seat. All their speakers are easy to drive and major in dynamic ease and surprisingly good imaging and depth, and in unbelievable bass from small woofers and enclosures (how does he do it??). Anyway, the SP-3s - a three-way budget speaker which nevertheless was at the top of their heap - have truly incredible bass, tight, DEEP, and detailed, though the box does not weigh much, and which is not very big. This is a charactersitic of the man behind these speakers, who in wizardly fashion was incredibly adept at producing incredibly musical model after incredibly musical model, AND which produced incredible amounts of bass, detail and imaging at a low low price. Match any of his models - which all share a crossover point at precisely 2K, perhaps partly responsible for the musicality? - to tube electronics, and to an Idler-Wheel Drive and a PRaT-Supreme MM (or perhaps a Denon DL-103), and you will find yourselves glued to your respective seats night after night. Lenco/RN-250/Grado/AES tube amps/Athena Technology (or Sound Dynamics, both used) spells Incredible Musicality And Peformance at a Budget Price, or "IMAPBP" ;-). Let's hope the man behind these various musically magical and musically exciting deisgns (I used to know his name - he was a guitarist in a band and put his ear for music to excellent use) continues his career in speaker design: anything else would be a crime, ahem, Mr. Klipsch.
Anyway, time to try out the AKG P8ES (and the Super Nova version I also have) cartridge next!! Have fun all, I LOVE hooking up $100K+ worth of sonic performance (i.e. a Giant Direct Coupled Lenco belt-drive equivalent, if even this :-)) to budget components, now THIS is fun!! |
Purple Satellite Wire. Would someone please enlighten me about using this wire in a tonearm. This is the first time that I have heard this mentioned |
Hi Jean,
Glad to see you've got bubbling pots on all burners. I just got hold of a NOS Ortofon FF15E MarkII. What's the difference between mine and your M15E Super Mark II?
All best,
Mario |
Hi Mario, sorry to say, the M15E Super MKII was the top model in the VMS range ever produced, though the VMS 20 and VMS 30 which folllowed it were more famous. The M15 designation was the first VMS (Variable Magnetic Shunt, being centred around a ring magnet dor, I guess, a controlled magnetic field) cartridge ever released too in 1969, the Final model of this particular one, the M15E Super MKII - being released in 1973. The FF15E is a cheaper model, though ALL VMS models stun with their musicality (first) and resolution, never heard a bad one yet. The M15E Super MKII was close on to $400, which was a LOT of dough for an MM or any cartridge back in the late '70s when it was still being produced. Recently Ortofon discontinued the M15E stylii, but when it was still available it sold for $275 USD, in comparison with $100 or less for most other VMS models, which tells you something.
The M15E Super doesn't look like much, a gold-coloured tin can with a bit of plastic at the front and an sloppy-looking cantilever, but one can't argue with results!! Actually, the Piezo also has, under magnification, nothing to write home about at the end of its cantilever to account for its extreme information-retrieval capabilities, a diamond just barely visible in a large blob of glue, but MAN does it retrieve detail and produce a neutral sound, but still with that MM edge in terms of gestalt and PRaT, though it leans more towards the cerebral than Grados or Ortofon VMS cartridges.
The King of PRaT/complex rhyhtm was, in my estimation, the late lamented Shure V15VMRX, last edition. This thing could unearth, like an paleontologist a skeleton from the earth, THE most complex timing interrelationships which were simply utterly absent with most other cartridges, like comparing a Maestro piano player playing against another Maestro, but this one wearing oven mitts while playing. Incredible, for those who have the system which can demonstrate these subtle variations in PRaT ...like those who have such PRaT-Master speakers as Athenas/Sound Dynamics and of course, those who use idler-wheel drives, which reign Supreme here as in so many other areas (if not all ;-)). Come to think of it, I first noticed this Shure V15 quality on a belt-drive, to wit my very musical Audiomeca tunrtable, which I had bought for its very ability with rhythm, when comapred to other belt-drives at the time (which at the tinme I thought was the only system worth using, like most others at that time). Perhaps I'll track down another V15 in the near future.
Have fun all, back to the very promising AKG P8ES, whichy the first time around I actually preferred to the Super Nova model (perhaps something wrong with it though). I'm now using the Athenas, which in terms of PRaT/timing relationships simply have more discrimination than my other speakers, and so highlight this particular area of MM supremacy (excepting perhaps, for the famed Denon DL-103...I'll have to try this too via the Athenas and the Bauhaus Lenco: Black-laquered Giant Direct Coupled Lenco/RS-A1/Denon DL-103E). Vive la Idler-Wheel, Vive la Lenco, which make of timing - a Prime Ingredient of music - SUCH an obvious and inescapable thing!! |
Ah well,
Can't have too many Carts. I did, however, finally pick up the right Pickering V-15 (625e) with new stylus that you mentioned on the old thread. While I enjoy the "tubey" sound, it's such light tracker (.75 - 1.4 grams) that I'll have to dedicate some future turntable project with maybe a wall mount for it.
Now that V15-Vxmr is, in fact, my fave. Purchased it new at list back when the window was just beginning to close on it at Shure. It's does the full MM extravaganza without calling attention to itself - "The Big Natural in Neutral".
This in opposition to the Pickering V-15 which does call attention to itself, albiet in an folksy, vintage type sound. Recently pulled the Vxmr out of circulation (it's about at half-life) to rotate in a few other carts.
When the Vxmr stylus has worn itself out, my plan is to have it retipped - there are some reasonably priced retip services across the Atlantic in the mother country.
Looking ahead to future idler builds, I've got two Lencos and two Metzner Starlights that that have been calling to me like hungry children. I'll probably keep it feasible and plan to do one of each this building season.
Both Metzners suffer from a material design flaw. Because of the extreme torque at the spindles, the platter sleeves have "egged out" and exhibit unacceptable platter wobble. The sleeves were of an alloy not quite up to the task over the long haul. You may remember that the Metzners have a unique drive system - no bearing per se - but direct spindle drive with a scored all metal idler, driving a rubber puck in metal frame and up to the 6 lb. platter spinning in true 16-80 rpm variable speed. The 50s era Japanese motors (made from US military surplus steel - thanks to the Marshall plan, no doubt) are 4-pole inductors that appear to be bigger cranks than the Lenco motor, but just as quite, if not more so. So there's potential... An Auto Speed shop for high performance grade valve sleeves, custom machined and pressed into the Metzner platters is the next step.
Enjoy your idleness!
- Mario |
Hi Mario, haven't yet tripped over any Metzners, but am definitely on the lookout for one, if only for their bizarreness. I still have to get off my ass and get started on the Rek-o-kut Rondine I have, which, as I wrote a while back, sounded utterly superb in mono, where there is no rumble (rumble is not picked up in true mono), in fact, SO superb in mono that it reminded me of nothing less than the fully restored and set-up EMT 930 I heard back on Cyprus this past summer. For those who have an inherent fear of rumble with these old machines, get yourselves a true mono cartridge and set-up and find some true mono recordings to listen to: they sound astonishingly good, even the 78s, when played through a real system. I heard mine via tubed elctronics and a single Quad ESL57. As high end as I've ever heard, made me wonder - once again ;-) - about the Marketing Myth of Progress. In fact, I should get into the workshop and get started right away, and work on setting up a true mono system!
But, busy up here with yet further Lenco experiments, including the steel Reinderspeter top-plate I am now about to start on. Not that "ordinary" Giant Direct Coupled Lencos leave anyone wanting. The fellow who received both a rebuilt Lenco and a rebuilt Garrard 401 from me, the former with a Dynavector 507 MKII/Dynavector 17D MKIII and the latter with a SME V/Dynavector XX-1 re-tipped by VdH, reports he hasn't returned to the Garrard yet after setting up the Lenco, which he received after the Garrard. And lest we forget, the Giant Direct Coupling recipe works as well for any idler as it does for the Lenco, forget about Mystical Synergies, it's just about maximizing and proper set-up.
Just as a reminder, here's what one fellow sent me when he received a Giant Direct Coupled Garrard 301 from me: "Well, got the stock i/c on the Dyna, and not all tweaked yet, and nothing sitting on stand, without isolation, and it betters the Verdier/Koetu Urishi on a special Isolation stand...I am candidly surprised. I did not expect this. I had the the Cain and Cain plinth and it did not sound good. This is way above. The 301 is incredible in your plinth. It has only the inexpensive Denon 103 R and that is not redone yet...and only a stock cable and it is better by a long ways than the Verdier on a special isolation table. Next I will try the Koetsu in the arm....and in my best phono stage and see. Damn...don’t let this get out, or it will ruin the high end."
There's still resistance to the idea of Lenco as a true high-end 'table (more from Garrard-ers than anyone else, sadly), not to mention resistance to the idea of idlers as true high-end 'tables, despite the HUGE increase in interest and sales of these machines, HUGE increase in reporting on these machines in the hi-fi press, and their re-appearance on the market!! Prejudice is a tough one to beat. I STILL read that old politically-correct canard (not as in duck ;-)) that all drive systems are equal, it's only implementation that counts. Rubbish. Engineering is about engineering to a price, and if it takes a $50K belt-drive to match a $5K idler-wheel drive (and I mean in every audiophile area, not just SLAM and bass and rhythm and transients), assuming a $50K belt-drive can even match a properly set-up idler-wheel drive, then the issue is settled and the idler-wheel drive is quite simply superior. For a belt-drive to match the torque of an idler with an 8-pound platter, let's say it takes a 75-pound platter, to make the equivalent torque with momentum, which requires all sorts of expensive precision manufacturing and materials. Then it takes a very expensive and solid bearing to bear the weight and friction, assuming a bearing can be made which will not seriously wear out in just a few years. Then it takes a structure capable of supporting this massive weight, and so on. The belt-drive is not a practical system (not that it doesn't sound good at budget prices, like the great Thorenses and ARs, etc.), which is why they have hit $100K and beyond, with still improvements reported at each price point!! Or, simply buy a 'table with a high torque system with no slippage or stretching (why, an idler of course), a powerful motor which does not lose speed when faced with Stylus Force Drag, and sufficient weight on the flywheel-platter (Lenco springs to mind) to create a closed system - motor drives platter, platter smooths out motor - which utterly ignores stylus force drag, does not require vast amounts of material or unnecessary expense, and achieves the same thing, more reliably, at a much lower price-point, than an equaivalent belt-drive, assuming a belt-drive exists which can outperform a properly set-up idler-wheel drive.
Direct Drive is also undergoing a resurgence of interest due to the idler-driven topic of speed stability, and also because DD motors are still available on the market. But, due to the extreme slowness of the rotation (literally 33 1/3 RPM for 33 1/3 LPs, and 45 RPM for 45s, as opposed to roughly 300 RPM for belt-drives and 1800 RPM for idler motors which iron out speed imperfections), they require expensive controlling systems and engineering to counteract the magnification of speed imperfections, all physical systems being to some extent imperfect (but the faster the motor spins, the more these imperfections are ironed out). People make the mistake that the consequent high technology in DDs is a big plus (computational power as a selling feature), when in fact this high technology is required by the Great DD Liability, which is magnified speed imperfections caused by the extremely slow rotation. Not that DDs cannot be made to be extremely good, in fact better than belt-drives according to these ears (especially servo-controlled DDs so far), but, as with belt-drives, it is perhaps true that DDs can only be made to match idler-wheel drives by increased expense, which means that according to the principle of engineering to a price point, idler is still the superior system.
Those with experience know that noise/rumble is not an issue with idler-wheel drives when properly set-up, a lingering bit of misinformation from the Bad Old Days of the Hegemony of the Belt, those same belt-drivers now saying that all systems are equal and it comes down just to proper implementation....yeah, and the combustion engine is not superior to the steam engine, it just comes down to proper implerementation, as in a 100-ton machine (locomotive) to match a half-ton machine....but the steam locomotive will not stop on a dime, or accelerate in a matter of seconds.
Anyway, DD experiments will continue in my workshop, the Lenco will be taken to The Max via the Reinderspeter top-plate and reported on, and I hope to delve into the mysteries of the fabulous Rek-o-Kuts!! Have fun all!!! |
Johnnantais
I look forward to seeing you tackle the Rok o Kut. I love mine and I am not yet completely finished. I do caution you as you stated that you have a metal drive spindle on the motor. I don't think they are on your rondine. They look it until one takes a really close look. They are phenolic and need very carefull handling or they will make a lot of noise....ooops.. yes I recked one before i knew.
Thanks for all of your contribution and of coarse... viva la idler! |
Thanks for that Fordmod, and good luck in finishing your Rek-o-Kut project!!
And now for a Tale of Idler Rumble. A while back I delivered both a Giant Direct Coupled Garrard 401 and a Giant Direct Coupled Glass-Reinforced Lenco (GDCGRL...say that ten times fast!!) to the same fellow, who after hearing one of my GDCGRL for only twenty minutes agreed to trade his Anniversary-edition Oracle Delphi MKIV (black and gold) against the deal. He had subwoofers set up in the corner of a rather large listening room, and a flimsy Target shelf for the unsuspended 'tables right between them, and close. As background, I advised him, as I do all who receive Lencos or other idlers from me, that the best platform I have found is stone bonded to acrylic or Corian, acrylic being on top. This is because stone will not flex and so is much less likely to transmit furniture-created rumble (low-frequency vibration of the sort familiar to other unsuspended decks, like Regas), and acrylic makes it all sound more natural, and damps the stone's ringing, being a CLD sandwich. This has the result of eliminating low-frequency feedback, and of focusing the idler's great strengths, which actually are everything and everywhere, but especially, against a background of belt-drives, transient speed, SLAM, limitless and tight and detailed bass information, incredible timing.
Now, bolting or Direct Coupling an idler, already extremely powerful in the bass, to a large inert mass, creates limitless bass reach, detail and speed (Direct Coupling even more so), which in turn means that any rumble, whatever the origin, will be picked up and amplified. The Garrard/SME V/Dyna XX-1 on the Target shelf was fed into a fully-tubed phono stage (Audio Space), which was, to boot, microphonic. Immediately the first record was played, unacceptable levels of rumble were heard, and so I advised him to simply sit the Garrard on the floor. Much better, but now the opening grooves on each LP - which are distorted by the process of spreading the vinyl outwards in the pressing, meaning the outer edges/opening grooves are distorted in the cooling/hardening vinyl - caused a low-frequency feedback loop which overloaded the phono stage and drove it into oscillation. Plus, there was some rumble/noise still being heard at low levels. So we found some sound-deadening blocks and stuck one under each of the three carriage-bolt feet. Noise now gone, the oscillation yet remained, and we inserted a solid-state phono stage, noise now greatly diminished, vanishingly so. So things stood until I delivered the Lenco.
The fellow didn't want to spring immediately for a stone platform, so we compromised: I built him a new shelf made from my usual recipe of birch-ply and MDF, which we plopped down into the Target stand, and he ordered an acrylic slab. We set up the Lenco on that, no acrylic slab yet, and heard some rumble/noise, and some of that old feedback oscillation in the opening grooves (tubed phono stage back, but with new, less microphonic tubes now). We put the sound-deadening blocks in, which eliminated the noise, but which to my ears also eliminated much of the Lenco power, magic, speed and bass impact. But, he was very happy (remember he had a high-end belt-drive before ;-)), and I left it at that for now, yet still dissatisfied.
Eventually he sent me news of his acrylic slab being ready, and I went over to glue it (using 3M spray adhesive which doesn't react with rubber platter mats either). We first went about finding the best combination of phono stage without the acrylic slab, and settled on the John Curl-designed Sota active step-up fed into the MM section of the tubed phono stage as having the best balance of musicality (much more musical than the solid state phono stage) and silence (MC stage too noisy with no appreciable increase of musicality). Now it was starting to sound good.
We bonded the acrylic to the Birch/MDF platform, and set up the Lenco on that, this time without the sound-deadening blocks. ALL rumble and noise was now completely gone, regardless of volume (and we were playing LOUD), and the improvement in sound quality was truly shocking. NOW the Lenco was indeed Mighty, with that familar sense of untapped yet ever-present limitless power (and the comparison to the Amazon in full flow is still the best description of the Lenco sound so far), and incredible delicacy, SLAM, limitless duynamics, air, imaging, transient speed with decaying notes fully recovered and atmospheric, and incredible bass detail and information which is, quite simply, inaudible and not present on belt-drives. In this extremely hig-end system, the sonic results were quite simnply awesome and overpowering, the same sound which easily outperformed a fully updated $11K EMT 930 idler wheel drive back on Cyprus.
Which is to say, that properly set-up idlers do not rumble inherently, regardless of the low-frequency levels reacheable by any system, subwoodfers or not. What is happening is that the idlers' abilities to delve extremely deeply in the bass (due to the vastly-superior torque and speed stability in the face of problematic stylus force drag) means that any low frequency noise is picked up, amplified, and often causes a feedback loop which endlessly cycles and re-amplifies the noise. Of course, the idlers themselves must be meticulously set-up and restored in order to remove any possible sources of noise. Direct Coupling lowers the noise floor yet more to astonishing levels of quietness (while increasing every audiophile aspect from detail retrieval through imaging to bass information), and finally, setting up on a non-flexing suitably damped platform (which means extremly lightly damped, like gluing acrylic to stone to deaden ringing but not introduce energy-killing/sucking phenomena) eliminates all noise which "excavating" the idlers' abilities in all audiophile areas, especially transient speed, focus, SLAM, bass and timing/rhythm (Pace, Rhythm and timing, PRaT).
Finally, the recipient, extremely difficult (when I delivered the Lenco and Garrard he set up a lab with scopes to measure noise and performance before he would insert them in his system, and he is EXTREMELY sparing with compliments or positive reports) now utterly convinced, bought a granite slab within a couple of days, and has sent me the following e-mail: "Can't believe what a slab of granite will do. Great improvement on the bass .....you can hear each note clearly..........better focus on the mid ...........and the little edginess in the high is gone too. Best $60 I spent in many years!!" Now, to highlight just how serious about audio this fellow is, he is planning on buying a $100K preamp for his system, has been an audio distributor (the second to favour properly set-up idler-wheel drives, specifically Lencos, as opposed to high-end belt-drives), and is going into manufacturing of tubed electronics (also the second manufacturer of tubed electronics to be seduced by the Mighty Lenco, the other being Roger Hebert of Wyetech fame).
Anyway, consider a CLD slab of acrylic bonded to stone as practically mandatory in order to get the most out of your respective idler-wheel drives all, and enjoy the sound of your Mighty Idlers!! |
Yo from the Great Northwest!
Please click on my system to see my latest Lenco beauties.
This thread has been one of the best public, worldwide services. The mighty Lenco has kept me at home, indoors and off the streets.
Another Lenco Crazy |
Beautiful Lencos Michael!!
At this end I've been experimenting with ceramic ball bearings for the Lencos. As some of you may recall, when I reported on the Garrard vs Lenco, I had reported that only with a completely obssessive and neurotic main bearing and idler-wheel baering and motor treatment/cleanup/re-lubing could the Garrard match the Lenco. Well, in applying this same regimen to the Lenco main bearing (more difficult due to the much smaller Lenco main bearing), and combined with the ceramic ball substitute, the Lenco takes another leap upwards in performance, and this pretty well must be considered mandatory as well. Given the HUGE leap when matching the Lenco with the stone/birch-ply/MDF/acrylic sandwich (acrylic on top), this latest mod must be considered to take the Lenco - already one of the best 'tables in the world, bar none when in Giant Direct Coupled guise, in terms not only of the usual idler superiority in the bass, dynamics department and transient speed, but also in terms of transparency and detail (as those who have actually tried one can attest) - into completely uncharted territories of Analogue Bliss.
The most striking result from the bearing mod is a LARGE increase in transparency and pristine and delicate high-frequency extension, bringing my fab RS-A1/Denon DL-103"E" - previously left in the dust by the JMW 10.5/Ortofon Jubilee pairing - into perhaps superior sonics, organization, separation and transparency. Now, I need to apply this same mod to my massively huge Ultra Lenco, and see where the JMW/Ortofon Jubilee pairing, and the Sonus/Satin pairing, takes me next!
Of course, noise (inaudible noise/black background), MUST be decreased, which accounts for the increased transparency. The newly-uncovered high-frequency extension - SMOOOTTTHHHH and silky extension- is likely due to improved speed stability. Yes, speed stability, as reduced friction in the main bearing (the platter now spins forever) means the platter - already the best flywheel out there in Idler Land - acts as an even more effective flywheel which, being coupled intimately via that infamous rubber wheel to the motor, regulates the motor speed even more effectively than before (that famous closed system of platter/idler/motor motor/idler/platter which utterly ignores stylus force drag).
I haven't had a chance yet to investigate further in the bass and midrange (already improved by the much greater transparency), and will report further once I've applied the mod to my Reference Ultra Lenco/JMW/Ortofon Jubilee. Have fun all, in my region the Lencos are making a Mighty Splash, among some VERY serious audiophiles, who are learning lessons in the areas of musicality and edge-of-the-seat excitement, (not to mention that still-alive nonsense idler noise dogma!), not to mention the Myth of Progress! |
So, Jean, where do you get the ceramic bearing, and how can Lenco lovers get one too?
And what's this about an acrylic layer on your giant super splendiferous plinth? |
Ceramic bearing and total bearing overhaul kit can be obtained from Joel - take a look in Fleamarket at Lenco Lovers Forum for "Joel's platter bearing kit". http://tinyurl.com/23gjgv |
Thanks wbw, Perhaps Jean can comment as to the source of his ceramic bearing. It may not have come from "Joel". |
I obtained mine from Joel's platter bearing kit, and prior to Joel's kit from Boca Bearings.
http://www.bocabearings.com/ |
Hi Lew and everyone else, sorry about the delay, out here in the country I don't always have access to Da 'Net, and the latest round of snowstorms has slowed everything down some more!!
Lew, the bearings did indeed come from Boca Bearing, but I must now add a caveat until further experimentation/notice: though in my own system - most particularly the Bauhaus Lenco/RS-A1/Monster Cable Sigma Genesis 2000 (a new acquisition to duke it out with the JMW/Ortofon Jubilee) - the bearing seemed to be a clear improvement, in another system the power and majesty of the Lenco seemed to be severely affected, though in terms of clarity, silence and detail it was a clear winner. In fact, I had done two things: obssessively restored the main bearing, AND inserted the ceramic ball bearing, so I'm not sure what was doing what. The new cleaning regimen did indeed improve the frictionlessness (added many minutes to the free rotation) of the main bearing without the substitution of the ceramic ball bearing, and did indeed improve the sonics substantially, as the recipient of one of my older Lencos attests.
But, I think the ceramic ball may be pulling that old audiophile trick I've heard so often from all kinds of equipment, from electronics through speakers and cartridges, acrylic platters and so on: strip away/supress a large part of the midbass so as to expose the midrange and high frequencies and create the illusion of increased clarity, speed/transients and detail. I don't yet know and will perform some comparisons today and through the week. It might have been my mood, or some other subjective phenomenon which caused my reaction to the changeover in a very pricey and impressive system (much more powerful before the changeover, but the owner of the Lenco loved the increase in clarity/silence/black background notwithstanding my own reaction), need to do more listening.
This tonal trick may in fact help some unbalanced set-ups (too rich, perhaps like mine which now prefers MCs, which thanks to the RS-A1 and JMW are now much more musical/MM-like), but in some systems - as yesterday (violins seemed borderline shrill, all the rosin and resin was gone) - will create problems.
Now, this ball bearing is critical, as the platter rides on it and so the whole sonic landscape depends on it. It's possible the sound of the Lenco depends on a metal ball, and Boca Bearing also has a variety of metal ball bearings which might be a better bet. Anyway, I'll get back to you all later on this issue (very time-consuming comparisons), so don't all stampede towards the ceramic balls just yet, I'll do dome listening today via my handy-dandy Bauhaus Lenco, via a similarly treated main bearing, but with the original steel ball bearing.
As to the acrylic, I bond it to the top of the platform the Lenco rides on Lew, not to the Lenco plinth itself. This improves the sound in most systems I've tried it in, though of course the usual synergy and room matching issues apply.
Finally, a note on the MM vs MC issue: I've long been advocating the superiority of MMs over MCs in all kinds of musically-important areas, more specifically gestalt (the sense of all musicians playing together to produce music rather than a disparate collection producing information/detail as many MCs/tonearm/'tables do), tonality (MMs capture resonances, wood, resins, varnish better, especially the Grado Woodies) and PRaT (Pace, Rhythm and Timing, making music especially exciting/driving); and that also many MMs produce surprising levels of detail when properly matched to tonearms (which usually means low-mass). But with my new sound-room, new/old very-rich/tubey Sony 2000F preamp (fabulous MC loadable phono stage) and with the acquisition of the MC-humanizing JMW 10.5 and RS-A1 tonearms, MCs now have the advantage in my system, which explains the current situation of MC-dominance at home. This is a first for me, and I'm still having fun with MMs, just a matter of synergies for the moment, working on getting a new soundroom, which will affect speaker choice and so on.
Anyway, have fun all, I'll get back to the bearing issue! |
Nice job Jean!
Fascinated as usual, I went to the web and found that most tables using a ceramic bearing do not have the hard steel thrust plate or anything like the the dimpled pads like we have on the Lenco. The thrust pads were:
- bronze thrust plate with a "soft" ceramic bearing. (the Kokomo 401 bearing kit on ebay)
- ceramic ball running on a ceramic thrust plate. Project TT
- ceramic ball riding on a hybrid alloy bearing pad (bronze, I assume). Monaco TT
- Inverted sapphire disc/ceramic ball bearing for low noise and long wear (Forgot who, becides I just gave away all my sapphire and diamond discs :0)
So it seems like a bronze thrust plate may the other part of the puzzle for use of a ceramic bearing.
Something else tweaked my attention during my search - someone claimed that they "decouple" the bearing shaft from the bearing itself. Fitting a (very) small o-ring on the concave end of the bearing shaft might be very interesting. A thorough cleaning and couple of drops of super glue might be necessary to keep it in place.
So, Jean - what is the new cleaning process?
Mike |
Hi Mike and all: I just substituted the original metal ball for the ceramic ball and heard a HUGE increase in bass power, midbass, and actual transparency, if perhaps a loss of some imaging focus, which may be addressed by other means (loading of the cartridge, speaker placement, etc.), so I have to declare the ceramic ball a Danger to the Lenco Mightiness, a Gelding of the Mighty Bull. Had the Lenco on Cyprus had the ceramic ball, the EMT would have been declared to winner in terms of power and PRaT, while the Lenco would have been deemed analytical. But, the Lenco surpassed the EMT in every area, offering a superior sense of limitless fluid POWER against the EMT's Garrard-like oversimplification of rhythm and timing (the Lenco offering a finer and more detailed exposition of complex timing which escaped the EMT, while clearly outperforming it in every audiophile area, like detail, imaging, decay/air and so on).
The Lenco I heard yesterday in the extreme high-end system, before the bearing-ectomy, sounded like the best turntable in the world bar none (Giant Direct Coupled Glas-Reinforced Lenco/Dynavector 507 MKII/Dynavector 17D MKIII), a Destroyer of EMTs and any belt-drive or DD you care to mention. The POWER, detail, SLAM, speed, transients and bass, with the familiar Amazon-like sense of barely-tapped limitless reserve, had to be heard to be believed (even I found it hard to credit). But after the bearing-ectomy, it sounded like a massive pricey belt-drive with an acrylic platter: analytical with overdamped bass and mushy low bass (speaking relative to idlers), the magic was GONE.
The ceramic bearing acts as a comb filter, filtering out some frequencies - specifically the mid-to-upper bass, precisely where the MOST striking difference between idlers and belt-drives exists - and exaggerating others (upper mids to high frequencies), thus creating this illusion of increased transparency and detail.
Now, I am not now going to try to match a ceramic bearing to the precise thrust-plate necessary to make it work, for now anyway, as here I will trust my gut reactions, as I did when I first heard an idler, when I first heard a Lenco, and when I first heard the birch-ply/MDF recipe I had been recommending and promoting on grounds of logic (CLD plus mass, avoidance of overdamping, but materials which will absorb rather than reflect energies....a perfect balance, intuitively/logically), but had not actually tried in the beginning. In each of these cases there was a Rightness which immediately struck a biological/emotional response, and a physical response (i.e. my ears saying Holy Crap and perking up like bunny ears)!!
Now many audiophiles like to dismiss these types of responses as subjective and so declare them meaningless and misleading. But music IS an emotional and biological experience (the urge to dance, to cry, to scream, to make trouble...), as well as an intellectual experience (the mathematical beauty of Baroque classical music, better exposed by a the Subtle but Mighty Lenco than anything else out there) and so to dismiss this makes no logical sense. We MUST trust our instincts. If I have a particular talent, it is my ability to recognize these responses in myself and be able to immediately chuck all I realize on the instant I had erroneaously believed (as when I, proud owner of two high-end belt-drive turntables heard my first idler) in favour of the contradictory experience (i.e humble modded Garrard SP-25 kicks the shit out of high-end belt-drives in all musically-important areas).
Now, it must be said that I seem to be able to extract more from Lencos and other idlers than many others whose Lencos fall short of the mark set by the Lencos I send out as ambassadors. This is largely due to audiophiles' weakness for the exotic and the complex. And so they rush out and apply - without comparison, this is VERY important - the latest flavour-of-the-month materials (i.e. bubinga wood and Ipe which reflect rather than absorb, approaching stone and metal for hardness and so on; ceramic and acrylic which both act as comb filters [in the absence of bonding/CLD-ing], the latest fashionable motors, etc.) and techniques (i.e decoupling which mitigates POWER and focus, separate arm-pods which introduce relative motion, materials which over-damp, and so on) without regard to logic (relative motion, overdamping, underdamping, etc, which should be evident without the experiment.).
I'm convinced that part of the Secret of the Mighty Idlers is the use of simple metal (platter) and wood (wood allowing Direct Coupling which is SUCH a HUGE improvement while reflective stone does not allow this). So, the metal to metal bearing works well, as it does in the platter itself, as does the use of birch-ply/MDF, which offers a perfect balance of mass/weight and just the right note of hardness/softness, absorbing without overdamping, solditidy which leads to incredible bass, SLAM, dynamics, transients and tonal correctness from the highest to the lowest frequencies. This last CLD recipe may not be exotic, but it is incredibly effective, as is instantly heard when tried. Wich is to say, the original Lenco parts, properly cleaned, relubed, restored, and set-up, are absolutely incredible in their seemingly limitless potential and actual results. The only parts I've found so far which exhibit any wear are, indeed, the nylon thrust plates, which dimple.
This doesn't mean I won't be seeking to improve this aspect: for instance I am trying to source new teflon thrust plates, and will look into thicker steel thrust plates (which like Reinderspeter's top-plate should improve overall sound quality without affecting the balance...the Mighty Amazon in Full Flow Lenco POWER, which must NOT be mitigated/compromised, only further improved!!!). I will also test out varying metal ball bearings. But I'll stick to metal, as my guts/ears attest.
As to the cleaning regimen Mike, long ago I reported on the restoration and replinthing of an NOS grease-bearing Garrard 301. Now the grease - an organic compound - had degenerated and formed invisible coral reefs on the metal of the shaft and bronze bushings of the main bearing. I discovered this when, after two cleaning of solvents, the now-shiny main bearing continued to stick in precisely the same places where it had stuck while the original grease was still in there. I scratched my head, and pulled out my handy-dandy Bullshit-Free metal cleaner: powdered and water-soluble Cameo pot and pan cleaner. I bought a pipe cleaner, and applied myself to both the interior of the bearing and the exterior of the main shaft. I blew compressed air through the bearing, made up my new Mobil 1-based grease (matched in consistency to the original honey-like grease) and discovered that the bearing now revolved smoothly with no problems.
My next Garrard experience came with an oil-bearing 301, which had no sticking problems, so I performed the usual solvent baths sans-Cameo, Direct Coupled it to the usual high-mass CLD recipe, and found it to be far short of the Lenco in performance. Again I scratched my head, and again I pulled out my Cameo, but this time introduced a new element: a 24-hour submersion in WD-40, an excellent solvent. Watch your brass and other metals magically come out shiny and new-looking!! THEN I applied myself with the Cameo, pipe cleaners and stiff sponges. After all this and the compressed air and new syntheitc lubrication, I reassembled everything and found the Garrard to be in the same ball-park as the Lenco.
But, the Lenco being so good without this obssessive cleaning regimen (using the solvent baths but no Cameo as it didn't seem an issue), I let well enough alone, only finally trying it out with the Lenco (which having such a smaller bearing/bushing, required lengthy polishing using Q-tips to scrub with the Cameo) this past week. WHAT a difference (which I erroneously concluded was due to the ceramic ball)!! The platter revolved so long I went away and had a nap. And sonically, a tranformation (leaving the metal ball in place). The moral of this story is: solvent are not enough. The old lubricants are organic (as are even most synthetics today as they are not purely synthetic as I discovered when I bought some purely synthetic stuff on Cyprus), and they degenerate over time, creating invisible bacterial colonies which must be scrubbed away to restore the sonics/potential fully.
NOW we are approaching the Full Idler Potential: obssessive treatment/addrssing of various issues - without replacing parts - leads to incredible heights of sonic fireworks and bliss!!! Interfering with the original recipe by resorting to new materials may lead to a Gelding of the Bull, and incorrect conclusions as to the power and true potential of idler-wheel drives. Do not rush to embrace the latest exotic materials and complex techniques without first hearing the context: a properly-restored and logically and practically designed plinth/tonearm set-up. THEN test out your new materials and techniques, as how otherwise are your conclusions valid (this argument goes back to the earliest days of the original thread, when several sought to "improve" the Lenco by replacing the fabulous motor and adapting it to belt-drive!!)?!? Not to mention the fact that these gelded bulls then become ambassadors, and end up holding back the rising Idler Tide (properly restored and set-up idlers are superior in every way to their belt and dircet-drive competitors...it's just that there remain ways to improve performance without affecting the powers and balance of these machines, like the Cleaning Regimen). Short form: don't fall for bullshit, embrace results.
Anyway, that's enough for now, have fun all!! Vive la Lenco, Vive la Idler-Wheel (which - already awesome in earliest days - continues to climb the Sonic Ladder)!! |
Oops, thanks Mike for the research, I leave it to you to source the various elements and get back to us with the results ;-)!! I've taken the first steps in having new teflon thrust-plates made too. Now to treat my "Ultra Lenco" and see which incredible place it takes me: Why don't you come with me, little girl, on a Magic Carper Ride!!!! |
Just a quick note on the use of Stillpoints with the Lenco. I've kept the bolt feet on, but they sit on a layered base of maple and acrylic with large size Stillpoints under the base just below where the bolt feet rest on top. Adding the Stillpoints definitely improves detail retrieval, and does it in a way that sounds smooth and full. Putting Aurios under the base also improves detail retrieval, and makes for a brighter sound. Brass cones sound more like the Aurios. Which is best is depends on whether you want to go 'richer' or 'brighter,' but it's an improvement either way. |
Jean,
Thanks for holding the Lenco flag so high and proud.
I am in total agreement, the Lenco should be left as it is- with regards to its integral parts; motor, base plate, idler wheel mechanism, spindle.
Please do replace the plinth using the recipe of baltic birch ply and MDF, and replace the arm with an affordable Rega. Once one gets a feel for what wonderful machines these oldies but goodies truly are, then go to the Lenco laboratory for further experiments and improvements.
Lucky for us, we have the know how at our fingertips-thanks to the Lenco aficionados on this wonderful site.
The Lenco is a KILLER!
Remember- friends don't let friends use belt drives. |
Thanks for that Michael, as always your posts are a hoot!! And thanks for the report of the footer experiments Bob, I keep hearing about the use of Stillpoints, I'll have to get around to trying these.
Well, yesterday I staged a BIG round of tonearm/cartridge comparisons, with REALLY good news for those on a budget!! As I've often written, I've been trying to get the RS-A1 to match the Mighty JMW/Ortofon Jubilee combo, so I had acquired a Monster Cable Sigma Genesis 2000 to replace the Denon DL-103"E" (great, but low bass is essentially absent, it's a mid-bass champ, which means it fits into the usual 40 Hz or mini monitor speaker systems perfectly...midrange GORGEOUS) on the RS-A1 which actually took the lead!!...for a while. Then I installed one of the newly-treated main bearings on the Ultra Lenco - with the usual playing overnight at 78 RPM, which makes a BIG difference in getting the new lubricant sunk into the bronze bushings to reduce noise - and the JMW/Ortofon Jubilee (which has absolutely state of the art bass which shames anything else I've heard, and this is a BIG plus on idler-wheel drives as it allows Full Restitution of the LPs) once again took a significant lead. THEN I hooked up the humble re-wired Sonus (a low-mass variant of the Mayware tonearm) with the Satin M-117Z (roughly $400 at eBay prices), and, incredibly, this in overall terms matched the JMW/Ortofon (at roughly $4K new), falling behind in some areas, and surpassing it in others. Surprisingly, it matched and perhaps beat the JMW/Ortofon in the bass!!!
Now the Satin cartridges are truly strange creatures, high-output MCs - which almost always fall far behind low-output MCs in absolute sound quality terms - which have removable styluses. Not only that, but the stylus assembly is held in place by simple magnetism, nothing else. Now this last fact explains why the erstwhile beautiful but flawed Satin only bloomed when matched to the ultra-low-mass Sonus: anything heavier caused relative movement of the stylus assembly because of simple mass/momentum. But with the Sonus, the stylus remains in place and a stunning amount and quality of bass emerged. The Satin was waiting for the Sonus all this time to bloom.
Getting back to the Tale of Rumble, the Sonus/Satin was unplayable at higher volume via the reflex-loaded (ported) Athenas due to the low-frequency feedback loop I had written about back a few posts. But with the three-way Yamaha NS-690s (which belong to the famed NS-1000 line), which are acoustic suspensions speakers (i.e. no port), but actually go deeper in the bass than the Athenas, the Sonus/Satin is playable with no volume limits, no rumble, no feedback loop. Now, reflex loading leads to mushier, less controlled bass (but higher efficiency/sensitivity figures), while acoustic suspension speakers traditionally have tighter, more tuneful bass (but lower efficiency figures as it takes more power to move the drivers). The reflex-loaded Athenas picked up and amplified otherwise inaudible low-frequency noise, which moved the furniture, and cycled it in an escalating feedback loop. So again, reports of idlers and rumble are due not to the idlers themselves (i.e. the rumble is not intrinsic) but is due to the fact that mass-loaded idler-wheel drives have no lower limit in the bass, and so retrieve bass noise, which leads to amplification and low-frequency feedback loops. I point out here that belt-drives do not usually exhibit these problems, for the simple fact they cannot match idler-wheel drives in the bass, period.
Anyway, good news to budget-minded audiophiles/music lovers, you can, given proper matching, achieve state-of-the-art results on a budget!! Satin cartridges are rare as hen's teeth, but if any of you come across some, jump on them! There are likely MMs as well which, on the Sonus, will produce similar results. Ditto other vintage tonearm/cartridge combos. Have fun all!!! |
And now for a tale of synergies and Deccas. Waaayyy back, in the days of the original thread, I had accidentally found that the JMW tonearm was a perfect match for the notorious Decca cartridges. For the first time in my experience, the Decca behaved perfectly with no mistracking or jumping out of grooves, at least almost perfectly, with possibly one album in my collection giving it problems.
Back then I had my vintage Sony TAE-5450 preamp (stellar, recently handily outperforming and displacing a heavily-modified Superphon Revelation Basic Dual Mono, itself a legendary '80s phono preamp), evidently an excellent match for the Decca. The POWER, and transient SPEED I heard then was awesome to beholdd, and I declared this the Best Combination in the world (Giant Lenco/JMW/Decca), being at the same time my discovery of the effects of increased mass, the first Giant Lenco I built at the request of Dave Pogue, to whom I owe TWO discoveries (Giant/Mass is Class and the JMW/Decca combination).
Now the Decca cartridges are Direct Scanning designs, meaning there is no suspension, the diamond being attached at one end of a bent piece of metal, the other end going directly to the magnets. This means direct communication of energy/information to the electrical generator (the moving magnets), which in turn means, in engineering terms, that it should (like the idler-wheel drive principle) be superior to the alternatives (standard suspension cartridges, which is everything else). But, the resulting tremendous energy of the Direct Scanning principle means Deccas will only perform up to spec on the appropriate tonearms (otherwise buzzing and mistracking and jumping about), which means fluid damping (I also got great results on a Maplenoll tonearm with damping trough in the Fab '80s). Recently, a Canadian audio magazine declared the "lower" Deccas (including the Super Gold) severely flawed and gave them a thumbs-down because they insisted on disregarding decades of collective Decca experience and using them in standard undamped captive-bearing tonearms.
Anyway, eventually I got an ARC SP8 preamp, which was fabulous, and then an Orotfon Jubilee to replace my extinct Kiseki Purpleheart Sapphire MC, and for the first time, in my system, I heard something which could beat the Decca, the JMW 10.5/Ortofon Jubilee combo. But now, I am back to a Sony preamp, the 2000F with swithcable MC and MM loading and two phono stages. On trying the JMW Decca Super Gold combo once again, I now hear the Decca far outstripping the JMW/Jubilee combo. Yet in another system the same week (Quad ESL 63s driven by tube electronics, and a Graham 2.2 Ceramic on a Giant Lenco) the story was precisely the reverse. Now that Graham/Decca combo sounded absolutely perfect in audio terms, but in my system it is Lighting and Thunder to a far greater degree, along with truly astonishing transparency and detail. Everything sounds so REAL, so palpable, so 3D!
I believe this is due not only to electronics which the Decca loves (vintage Sony), but also to the acoustic suspension Yamaha NS-690s (which I remind everyone belongs to the famed NS-1000 monitor line, haivng in fact deeper bass than the 1000s). I had also written way back in the Kundalini Effect days, that acoustic suspension speakers retrieve more of the Palbability Factor and Timing (PRaT) which is yet another aspect of the superiority of idler-wheel drives over the competition, due to their tighter and more responsive bass (also deeper bass for a given size, but with the penalty of reduced sensitivity).
Anyway, given a good acoustic suspension speaker and sympathetic electronics, the Lenco/JMW/Decca combination is once again at the Top of the Sonic Heap, providing truly unbelievable results, borderline vaporizing the Yamaha drivers!! This is not to say that the results are not stellar in other systems (the Decca handily outperformed a $3K MC in the Giant Lenco/Graham 2.2/tube/Quad '63 system), just that to hear what an idler/Decca can do an acoustic suspension design is way recommended!! This means too push-pull tube electronics, not single-ended (excepting certain particularly muscular single endeds as the Wyetech electronics) to drive these more difficult speakers.
I'll next try out the underrated AR2ax's, now that I have this fabulous Lenco/JMW/Decca combo singing once again!! WHAT fun!! Have fun out there all you idler users as well!! One discovery as well of all these tonearm/cartridge combos, was just how incredible the humble/budget Denon DL-103"E" (roughly $300 all told)sounded on the JMW, both super-smooth and slamming, and transparent as well! All you silent readers out there owe it to your Audio Happiness to get ye out and hear a properly set-up idler-wheel drive, but be prepared, as First Contact is often a severe psychological shock (can vinyl sound like THIS?!?!)! There's a reason the Idler-Wheel Movement is steadily gaining steam and adherents :-). |
Please Johnnantais, do try the slatedeck diy tweak! and let me know what you personally think of it.... Giant killing on the cheap, in true Lenco Lovers tradition and spirit!! I posted a thread and pic on Lenco Lovers under 'slatedeck' |
Hxt1, Which slatedeck are you using, the one made in the UK or the one made in Pennsylvania, USA? Neither is "cheap", as far as I know. |
Lewm, I am using a DIY slatedeck, I had a 1" thick slab milled and polished as a top layer for my CLD plinth, and I am VERY happy with the results, to say the least!!! The guy from Wales jumped on the thread at Lenco Lovers to tell me why only Welsh slate sounds good, and he has to charge the prices he does to run a business, and put food on the table, and any other slate sounds like crap, because it is 'too soft' ( I guess wood plinths sound right horriffic if one applies THAT logic) and on and on he went, I said HOGWASH! And still do!
For (well) under $100, I had a beautiful slate slab custom made for my Lenco, and it sounds FANTASTIC!!!
http://www.lenco-lovers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2388&start=40 |
Hi Hxt1, thanks for the tip, there's nothing like trying something to see what it does, like the ceramic ball. Btw, how do you pronounce Hxt1 ;-)?
There are reasons I've steered clear of stone in the plinth, i.e. the "Hardness Factor", which means it is more reflective than absorptive (and so creates the illusion of detail rather than its natural and glorious reality), and it cannot in itself be Direct Couple-able, meaning screws cannot be sunk into the "meat" of the stone to drain noise away (and anyway, being so hard it would not absorb but instead tend to reflect noise back), as it can with wood products. However, bonded CLD-style to a plinth, screws can still be passed through the stone to the wood to reach the wood of the remains of the plinth. Perhaps you can organize having a slab sent my way via Canada Post so I can try it out and report on it.
In the meantime, before everyone rushes to slate (as some may have done with the ceramic ball bearings), be cautioned that hard materials (and this includes especially hard woods) may be doing the old audiophile "drain some of the bass frequencies away to unnaturally expose the mid and high frequencies Trick" to create the illusion of detail rather than the reality. I fell for this very recently with the ceramic ball bearing, first installing it in various systems, then being forced to return and remove them all once I realized what what really going on (i.e. de-testicularization of the Mighty Lenco). Your description on Lenco Lovers that surface noise is emphasized is a flagpost that this may, that's MAY (don't let me discourage you), be happening, as the larger the traditional CLD plinth ("traditional" being the now-common birch-ply/MDF recipe), the more effective the Direct Coupling and the less apparent the surface noise is, while the detail, transients, bass and high frequencies all continue to improve. Anyway, contact me, we'll organize shipping of a suitably-cut slab my way, and we'll subject it to the Jean Nantais Audio Laboratory (i.e., my hairy bat-like ears) and I'll report further.
Good news to all the Lenco Lovers out there, I've had occasion to listen to two Garrards (301 grease-bearing and 401 oil-bearing) Direct Coupled to Giant CLD plinths and compare them to similarly set-up Lencos, and both in excellent systems, one of them being way WAY beyond my means. Now as background, remember that Direct Coupling ANY idler-wheel drive works very well (and DDs too, as the slaughter of the Technics SP10 MKII by the Sony 2250 attests), in fact creating what may well be the best Garrard rebuilds currently available. So, I once again post the impressions of a complex low-mass Cain & Cain Garrard owner to set the stage/context: "Well, got the stock i/c on the Dyna, and not all tweaked yet, and nothing sitting on stand, without isolation, and it betters the Verdier/Koetu Urishi on a special Isolation stand...I am candidly surprised. I did not expect this. I had the the Cain and Cain plinth and it did not sound good. This is way above. The 301 is incredible in your plinth. It has only the inexpensive Denon 103 R and that is not redone yet...and only a stock cable and it is better by a long ways than the Verdier on a special isolation table. Next I will try the Koetsu in the arm....and in my best phono stage and see. Damn...don’t let this get out, or it will ruin the high end."
In more related news, before we get back to the subject, a former Shindo Garrard owner visited a friend of mine with a Giant Air-Bearing Lenco and was struck, while there, by the utter silence of both it and the Giant Direct Coupled Garrard which was also there. He said the Shindo was noisy. Now we know just how effective Direct Coupling to a Giant plinth really is in eliminating noise and excavating music, and also see an example of Price is the Product (which, being Unobtainium to most, engenders its own mythology, promoted by the owners in most cases, excepting this one) and Audio Bullshit. I reiterate: Russian birch-ply and MDF may not be exotic, but they are EXTREMELY effective, and tonally balanced and dynamically perfect, so much so in all audiophile areas that it is simply impossible to point to any flaws (which cannot be addressed by footers and platforms). Here's a VERY picky Russian birch-ply/MDF CLD Lenco owner with a truly high-end system looking for flaws: "The Lenco is sounding simply fabulous !! Absolutely the best LP reproduction I have owned. I spent quite a while getting everything dialed in and now think I'm realizing the full potential of the Giant Lenco. Bravo, Bravo !!" And later: "The Lenco continues to impress. I'm unable to identify any area where the performance is lacking, i.e.- no shortcomings have reared their ugly head(s) to disrupt my enjoyment of the Giant Plinth Lenco."
Anyway, the result of the visit of the former Shindo owner? The fellow bought that Lenco on the spot (don't despair Lenco Lovers, the friend is also replacing the air-bearing Lenco with a more traditional pivotted tonearm Lenco, "latest spec") with which he was enamoured to the point of Shindo and Giant Garrard invisibility. Now this is not to say that a properly-restored Garrard cannot beat the cr*p out of a multi-kilobuck belt-drive with one footer tied behind its back, just that, after all, there is an idler hierarchy, and that it appears - following as well the defeat of a mighty EMT 930 on Cyprus, fresh from full Restoration by three of Europe's leading analogue experts - that the Lenco occupies the Top of the Heap.
Why? I have repeatedly compared Lencos and Garrards, and in various systems, and have rebuilt and disassembled many Garrards, Thorenses and Lencos, and can now point to the issue of [true] torque vs inertia. Now everyone may know (or many anyway) that I detest the application of the philosophy of Political Correctness to engineering/science, i.e. that it has no place here. So, influenced by PC and tring to win popularity contest (be all things to all people, offer no judgments, offend no one), many constantly reiterate that all drive systems are equal (in the absence of actual experience or evidence), and that it is merely a matter of implementation. Baloney, Oops, I mean fine, I say, let's bring back the steam engine. It weighs about a 100 tons, takes forever to speed up to combustion engine speds, and to slow down due to its massiveness, and costs several millions of dollars to manufacture. A bit like a 150-pound belt-drive which sells for $50K-$100K. Engineering is about engineering to a PRICE, and if it takes a 100 grand belt-drive to equal a 10 grand idler machine (let's say the true cost of manufacturing a new true idler-wheel drive turntable and selling it), then the 10-grand idler is simply the superior technology (and despite the antiquated rubber wheel, it IS technology).
So, getting to the reasons why: inertia of a massive platter is NOT the same as torque, which is applied actively to achieve its ends, in this case to spin the platter. So, say, take a dinky little motor spinning at 300 RPM (low-torque) and use it to revolve an 80-pound platter on its axis (main bearing) via a flimsy belt or thread with its problematic grip, and compare it with a Monster motor spinning at 1800 rpm, and use IT to revolve an 8-pound platter, with half its mass concentrated on its rim for flywheel effect, using a grippy rubber wheel. What will happen? The little - and so cheaper to manufacture - idler, will kick the ass of the Mighty Uber-Heavy belt-drive, as more and more are discovering, and as the previously posted posting also attests: "Well, got the stock i/c on the Dyna, and not all tweaked yet, and nothing sitting on stand, without isolation, and it betters the Verdier/Koetu Urishi on a special Isolation stand...I am candidly surprised. I did not expect this. I had the the Cain and Cain plinth and it did not sound good. This is way above. The 301 is incredible in your plinth. It has only the inexpensive Denon 103 R and that is not redone yet...and only a stock cable and it is better by a long ways than the Verdier on a special isolation table. Next I will try the Koetsu in the arm....and in my best phono stage and see. Damn...don’t let this get out, or it will ruin the high end." Have a look under my "system" to see the photo of the massively-plattered HUGE Platine Verdier sitting next to the not-so-Giant-looking Giant Direct Coupled Garrard 301.
So now we get to the reason why the Mighty Lenco should outperform the Garrards and EMTs (belt-drives are a forgone conclusion), which are better-built (but NOT better designed as I often write). Btw, the Lenco just has more of everything than the Garrards: more natural-sounding, more detail, more refinement, a larger dynamic pallette/window, it retrieves more of the air and resonance, more bass (!!!), a BIGGER presentation, more of a sense of limitless power, and so on. So, what's going on? The Garrard even has the more powerful/torquey motor! Ah, there's the rub. There must exist a perfect balance of torque-to-inertia. The more powerful the motor, the more that motor's sound/imperfections are heard, as it begins to audibly imprint itself over the flywheel/stabilizing effect of the platter. The Lenco's motor has less torque, but the platter is the better flywheel, with more mass concentrated on the rim, and at a further distance too (the platter is slightly oversized), making it an even more efective flywheel/purveyor of inertia an thus Smoother/Eliminator of speed imperfections (i.e. the motor). This superior flywheel ensures the motor - via the very clever it is now apparent means of using a rubber wheel with all its grip - spins more smoothly, and in the Lenco's case - likely entirely by accident (though perhaps Dr. Lenco actually calculated all this) - creates a perfect balance of torque (VERY important) to inertia (also VERY important) to create the Mighty Lenco, which sonically is akin to the Amazon in Full Flood, a sense of limitless but fluid power which underpins everything played through it, so that the most delicate bits of information emerge unscathed in all their elegance, while backed by the full force of sudden dynamic explosions, the classic Iron Fist in the Velvet Glove.
Well, anyway, that's enough of these ruminations for now, don't depair Garrard and other Mighty Idler users, these easily outclass megabuck belt-drives and provide that incredible idler excitement and POWER, and after all, Lencos can still be had cheap!! Vive la Idler, Vive la Lenco!! |
John, If your explanation of the cause of the sonic difference between Garrard and Lenco is correct, then then replacing the stock Garrard platter with a heavier one that does have its additional weight concentrated on its periphery (a la the Shindo platter) should go a long way to help the Garrard. Have you had the opportunity to audition such a table (in a Giant CLD plinth, of course)?
Hxt1, Thanks for your response. Do you mean to say that you are using a 1" thick piece of slate as a top plate on a birch ply/MDF plinth? This sounds like an interesting idea. I read your post on L-L forum, but was hoping for a photo. Yes, the UK guy who makes slate plinths was also very combative with the US guy who makes actually a much more elaborate product, based on the supposed inferiority of Pennsylvania slate (which I have on my own roof that is now 37 years old) to Welsh slate. Needless to say, the issue was not resolved. |
Lewm, there is a photo of the Lenco on the LL site, under "Slatedeck' in works in progress section. Yes this whole Slate bs is just that IMHO... BS! I actually asked the Welsh Slate guy to price a slab of Welsh slate for me, so I could have it Machined here, and do an A-B with my 'cooking' slate plinth, and see what all of the fuss was about..... I haven't heard back from him (big shock).
John, the 'filter' syndrome you speak of has been given a lot of thought, I took off the slate today, and did an a-b with the mdf.... the slate has really tightened things up... yes, there is much more detail, and I think the surface noise is only more apparent because I am now afforded a deeper look into the recording itself... bright recordings do sound bright... but the great recordings really are now at a whole new level! I read your post re: the ceramic bearing with great relish, and I do think it is necessary to revisit one's first impressions with a clear and unbiased mind. I really do feel that this Non-Welsh slate has made a big difference in my Lenco's performance! I am going to now bond the slate to the plinth, and there it will stay!
Btw, it looks GREAT!! |
Hxt1 and Lew,
It would be great to see your work/systems on this site. I hope you will post some photos in the future.
Thanks, Oregon
|
John, the slate is said to have natural CLD like properties, as layers of different sediment make up the slate itself, each layer itself differing slightly in composition, density, etc. Apparently slate has excellent damping properties because of it's makeup, and will not 'ring' like a crystalline rock will (granite, marble, etc) I just look at slate as a CLD on top of the CLD so to speak! And I can confirm that no bass is being drained whatsoever as I listen now to the 200g pressing of Pictures at an Exhibition"..... Wow!
I will once again dismantle this little beastie, and clean, lube, reassemble the bearing, motor and idler wheel, before locking it all down for another week of listening.. |
Hello Hxt1;
What are the dimensions & thickness of your slate deck? I was wondering why you decided to add the slate top to a ply/mdf plinth ( what is the mdf/plywood plinth dimensions) versus creating an all slate plinth or a two tier slate plinth with slate blocks sandwiched in between?
Lewm--Where did you find the information that additional weight is concentrated on the periphery (a la the Shindo platter) Do you know the ratio of weight distribution on the Shindo platter. It could be possible to take a regular Garrard platter and add lead shims to the outer edges.
Thanks
Opus |
Opus, I prefer the looks of the Boxed CLD plinth by far to the slab or skeleton plinth, and I wanted to have a modular system where I can sub the slate for mdf, ply, hardwood, lucite, etc. whithout having to build a whole new plinth each time.
The plinth is 20" x 16"
the Slate is 20"x16" x 1"
the box is 5" x 1" solid oak.
I don't know why someone would want to go modding the heck out of such a cool looking deck as the Garrard, when they could just buy a Lenco and be done with it!! ;-) |
Oregon, pics of my 'table are on the LL site! |
Hi Lew, no I haven't heard a Shindo platter on a Giant Garrard, but I have access to a good machinist who should be able to replicate the Garrard platter with some modifications (heavier metal, larger diameter, etc.) and perform the experiment myself. In fact, this opens up a whole new world of possibilities, as the Sony 2250's main weakness is also its light platter (but with DDs one cannot increase the mass much as it will interfere with the rotation, which is closely calculated...but the Sony platter has other design features which could use improvement). I'll be visiting him soon to see what can be done.
Problem with the Garrard and the whole issue of torque vs inertia, is that it takes a much greater increase in mass, I believe, to compensate for an increase in torque (say three-to-one) and so eliminate the motor's contribution/contamination of the sound. Of course I haven't performed the calculations, which in anycase I wouldn't know how to do, but I am suddenly looking forward to the experiment!! But, Hxt1 has a point: why go to the trouble when you can buy a Lenco :-)?? Anyway, I'll look into it.
On The Budget Discovery Front, I've been experimenting with various budget SET tube amps in an effort to reinsert my fave Klipsch Heresy MKIs (so extremely detailed, a fact which, to my puzzlement, is not reported) into my sound-room, they sounding much too bright and bass-shy using my usual Sony electronics (which, however, with every other speaker sounds tubier than even tubes, go figure). Though a pair of cheapie Radii SETs did indeed swing and were incredible fun, reminiscent in this way of the legendary budget ASL Wave 8 monoblocks - they did not produce any bass to speak of, unlike the astonishing Wave 8s, which in fact produced only half the output of the SET Radii (but twice the fun)!! Then I tried a budget Consonance SET, the stereo Cyber-10, which though rated for the same power (roughly 13 watts) sounded much more powerful and with deeper bass. But the bass was indistinct and lacked impact, when my Spidey-sense began to tingle.
Long ago I had reported on just how surprisingly good the little and much-maligned Dynaco ST-120 sounded (possibly the first solid state amp put on the market), once restored and adjusted by a competent technician. Now the Dynacos are maligned partly because they were sold as kits as well as factory-made, and the kit-built ones often had problems (sloppily built, tending to blow up), which would be assumed by the next buyer, to become part of the ST-120 reputation. The other part of the euqation is that due to their design, they are very speaker sensitive. Now I've found that many of these early solid state designs sound in fact very tubey (like the vintage Sony and Marantz, for instance), which makes sense as back in that day tubes were the reference/context, and the circuit designs started from tube circuit designs. Anyway, I thought to myself, what if the Dynaco - which so far sounded a bit too analytical for my taste so far with other speakewrs (but surprisingly delicate and resolving, making them still a steal at the resale price, itself predicated on their bad reputation...but remember, when I started the Hope Despot thread the Lencos were also considered the Worst Turntable in the World, just the the ST-120 is considered The Worst Amplifier iun the World) - works with the Klipsch?? I hooked it up and was greeted by Ultra Musical slam, bass and detail!! WHAT fun, NOW I have my new Reference system, which is the rebuilt Dynaco ST-120/Klipsch Heresy speakers, which has headroom in spades (the Dynaco weakness, except with the ultra sensitive Klipsches and their like), deep tight bass, and rocks so as to make dancing an Imperative, without a hint of brightness or that analytical sound!! Haven't boogied around the house like that in ages!! Of course, both the Dynaco ST-120 and the Heresies can be had for a song (so to speak), and so this represents an incredible example of the High End on a budget. Plus, being Klipsches, live recordings now sound MUCH more live than they did before!!
In my search for the perfect balance in my sound room during these comparisons as well, I removed the JMW/Decca combo and inseerted instead the MAS 282/Grado Woody combo, and was greeted with that familiar irresistable musicality, PRaT (superior to the Decca in this sense) and a sense of musical excitement I haven't heard in ages (as opposed to audio/hi-fi excitement), reminding me of why I have often written that the Grados are, overall, my favourite cartridges. It is also responsible for my dance routine this morning!! Now the Grados are not the equal of the Decca in terms of transient speed and slam, or resolution (the Deccas are EXTREMELY resolving), BUT, somehow, as one adjusts to the new context, the Grado begins to pull the listener in more completely, and to better communicate the sense of building musical excitemenmt, and it is definitely - given the right tonearm - superior to almost anythiung else in terms of timing (excepting the venerable Shure V15 VxMR). In addition, it is not aggressive but is extremely lively and dynamic (again, given the right tonearm), and is still champ when it comes to retrieving resonances (wooden instruments), to communicating the human voice (with all its natural dynamics) and to retrieving imaging information and air/venue (like live recordings which echo in their cavernous live spaces convincingly).
Now, I have to send my Sony 2000F preamp in to be adjusted and cleaned up, so in the meantime it'll be back to the Pioneer C-91, which along with the Wave 8s once was the heart of one of the most musically-satisfying and exciting systems I have ever had (with the Sound Dynamic RTS-5 speakers). I hope it works out tin the meantime: the Pinoeer has THE quietest MC phono stage possibly ever built, one can turn the volume all the way up with nary a hiss or crackle making its way in, sounding as if there was no power whatsoever.
So, have fun all, and I'll continue to report on my various experiments out in the Arctic Country (snowstorms keep me in, giving me time to kill ;-)!! Remember, at the heart of all this slam, power, musical excitment and boogeying is an idler-wheel drive :-). |
"the whole issue of torque vs inertia" ...is an interesting topic in itself.
I thought about inertia and mass with respect to the idler turntable for a very long time. It doesn't require a motor which has more torque, so traditional ones will be able to accomplish the task. To do it does require a new platter, however. There is a way to do it that has never been built in an idler design before, but it requires a new look at the idler altogether because previous designs were not configured in a way that made it feasible.
That said, I am very near the end of a project that attempts to accomplish the goal of added inertia without associated noise while maintaining the traditional idler concept. It is different, but I really believe that I may have pulled it off. We'll see soon.
Regards,
mosin |
45 dollar slate slab vs. 1100 dollar Welsh Slate plinth..... after a lengthy debate with the slatedeck guy as to whether Welsh Slate would improve twenty, ten, or even twofold what I was hearing from the plain old slate I used, It all came down to.... "Well, either you want a Merc or a Mini" or some such elitist nonesense!
Typical snake oil BS!!! I guess the $1100 would put me on high street, regardless of sound quality.... I have kind of left that forum alone for a bit, as my little DIY experiment thread became a 2 way pissing match with a marketeer... sheesh! Anyways, I finally wallmounted my beastie, and I will give it another month of listening, just to be absolutely sure I am not merely going thru a honeymoon phase! John, send me your address and some specs for your piece!
Harv. |
Harvey,
The fact that you don't agree with some points that have been generously and with no promoting idea explained don't turn them into b******t.
Always nice to spend some time explaining things to people and get a rotten fish in the face at the end of the play......
Don't have anything else to add.
François from LL. |
Mosin, that's a teaser and no mistake! :) Backstage Pass has a successor?
Rgds |
Hi Harvey, I'll give it a go and report on it, looks like the snowstorms are coming to an end and Spring is about to make an appearance!!
Mosin, we'll keep an eye out for further idler developments. One fellow (hi Stephen) e-mailed me a suggestion: a peripheral ring-clamp for the Garrard a la VPI and as suggested originally on a certain vintage 'table website (can't remember the link now out in the Isolated Country, the one with pages for the SP10 MKII, Thorenses and so on). Anyway, I'll see what can be done once I've made the measurements and consulted with a machinist. Though the Garrard has more torque than the Lenco, it's not a huge difference, having perhaps 20% more torque, so extra mass might amount to only an extra 4 pounds or so to even out the result and make it approach/match and perhaps surpass the Lenco results. The MASSIVE Garrard bearing can certainly take the extra weight, just make sure that the 'table remains level so as not to wear the bushings out on one side. Of course, if a ring-clamp, it can't foul the Garrard controls, measurements must be closely calculated.
On this subject, I cannot emphasize enough just how important Direct Coupling to a high mass is!! I point again to the beating the Sony 2250 served up to the Technics SP-10 MKII in identical plinths (i.e. size and make-up of burch-ply/MDF), despite the Sony's significantly inferior torque. The Sony can be Direct Coupled, the Technics cannot. And the difference between Direct Coupling to a 60-pound plinth and Direct Coupling to a 30-pound plinth is MUCH moroe than a simple doubling of sound quality, the Lenco crossing over into a whole new and unbelievable league.
On this point of Direct Coupling and mass vs inertia, AND quartz-locking, I also cannot believe just how musical the quartz-locked Technics SP-25 is when Direct Coupled to a high-mass CLD plinth. So this makes me wonder: why is the Technics SP-10 MKII so [relatively] unmusical (and inferior in every audiophile sense) to the Sony 2250, and the SP-25, also quartz-locked, ends up being so musical? Given the latest Garrard vs Lenco experiments/experiences, I point to the issue of torque vs inertia. Not only can the SP-10 MKII not be Direct Coupled, it also has MUCH more torque than the Sony 2250. But then the SP-25, which is also quartz-locked, CAN sound musical. So quartz-locking is not inherently a-musical, as I previously thought. What is happening is that the SP-10 MKII's drive system is, like the Garrard's, SO powerful it is imposing its sound on the music, resulting in the quartz-locking being audible (not a pretty picture). Given more inertia (a more massive platter, with mass concentrated on the rim) and Direct Coupling (which absorbs/eliminates noise AND further immobilizes the 'table), the SP-10 MKII should preserve its advantages (all that torque/control and superb build quality) and achieve a high level of [relative] musicality. As to Relative Musicality, a Giant Direct Coupled Lenco has to be heard to be believed, and to understand just how musically-powerful vinyl can be, I believing the Lenco is currently at the top of this heap as well.
Further on this point, the previous owner of the Shindo Garrard is also the owner of a second-from top-of-the-line Maplenoll with massive platter (40-pound graphite/lead platter) and Corian body (his current 'table), and like me years ago when I first heard the humble Garrard SP-25, understood within three minutes just how superior the Lenco was (in my case, I understood, given just how humble the SP-25, that the idler-wheel principle was superior). The Lenco has its powerful 1800-rpm motor and an eight-pound platter. While the Lenco's motor is not as powerful as the Garrard's, not too much can be made of this as the Lenco's motor is still very powerful, spinning at 1800 RPM and weighing in at roughly 4 pounds, and once actually having lifted an 80-pound Lenco off one foot when I accidentally engaged it at 78 rpm from stopped!
Anyway, I'll have to get my hands on an SP-10 once again and see if, after all, something can be done to Direct Couple it, and see about a ring-clamp or substitue heavy platter.
Finally, on the Budget Reference System Front, I cannot believe the results I am currently getting from my current system, which was assembled on a hunch: of course the Ultra Lenco (even larger than usual), followed by the MAS 282 tonearm matched to my Grado Woody (they ALL have the same basic character of super-exciting dynamics, irresistable musicality, retrieval of air and resonances which allows accurate identification of acoustic instruments, wonderful vocals, powerful bass, and so on) and the Sonus/Mayware/Satin M-117HZ, then via the Sony 2000F preamp to the Dynaco ST-120 (!!!) and out via the Klipsch Heresy speakers. We're back in the Kundalini Effect days, and here I now stay, afraid of messing with this latest recipe to achieve the Kundalini Effect. Come to think of it, the last time I had this effect/sound, I also used the MAS 282/Grado combination. The MAS seems to be the secret ingredient in achieving Full Grado Potential, but I'll do further experiments and see if there are alternatives. I also managed it with a Denon DL-103 on various tonearms, particularly the SME V. Anyway, I cannot believe just how wonderful the little Dynaco - available usually for $200 - is via the Klipches (running somewhere arornd $400 usually)!! The magic is stupendous, the SLAM limitless, the delicacy endlessly inviting, and informationally superb, if not state of the art (perhaps the Sonus/Satin will give me this, I'll check it out). A Super Budget System for peanuts!!
On the subject of the Denon DL-103, I was shocked, in a high-resolution system (tubes/Quad ESL63s), at just how vastly superior the Denon DL-103"E" (elliptical tip, new aluminum cantilever) from phonophono in Berlin was to the regular '103, in the bass as well as in terms of detail/clarity, which was in an utterly diferent league. And the Denon magic was completely there to boot. Highly recommended, send your 103s to phonophono for retipping!!
Anyway, have fun all, winter's almost over!! |
"Mosin, that's a teaser and no mistake! :) Backstage Pass has a successor?"
Colin,
Indeed it does. This is my most ambitious project ever, and I hope it works as expected. I tried my very best to break new ground on this one, and the big question is whether the ground is firm enough to stand on. I believe it is, but I will know for certain when the needle hits the groove, won't I? In any event, this is a fun hobby because we not only enjoy ourselves, but we learn things. I have learned a lot with this one.
I'll share what I found out with you guys in a month or so, but the turntable is a study in mass, inertia, isolation, friction, materials, speed control, assembly technique and a couple of other areas. Some of it may prove useful to you guys.
Regards,
mosin |
WOW! A lot of emotion surrounding these slate plinths!!! I hope no one on this forum is marketing anything!!!! I seem to have really ruffled some feathers over at LL with my less than genial response to the UNSOLICITED advice heaped on me concerning my lo-buck slate experiment... I would consider the whole thing a big mistake if it didn't sound so damn good!!!
I said it at the other forum, and I will say it here, at the end of the day, we're talking about a piece of slate, with a hole in it. If someone wants to go all steak and lobster about it so they can justify charging $1000 at the door, so to speak, good on 'em!!! |
My apologies in advance to Darren for my brash, abrasive stance on this.
I would obviously be buying a slateplinth instead of DIY if I had the $$$$.
Regardless of the reviews, I think they look great, the wife thinks they look great, and after hearing common slate in action, I am sure they sound FANTASTIC!! My experiment is not intended in ANY way to compare to the original, highly reviewed Welsh Slatedeck in any way whatever. Darren has established a well-earned positon in the marketplace by creating a great product, to very high standards. I simply decided to give something vaguely similar a go in my own back yard. I felt as though I wre building a wagon, and suddenly the Head engineer at Rolls Royce was on the phone, that's all....
Sheesh, I'm really truly sorry for being so snitty about the whole thing
Humbly (for a change) Harvey. |
