Building high-end 'tables cheap at Home Despot II

I agree that Mosin's work is cosmetically the best I've seen, and it seems that he has used a unique platter, which perhaps he made himself or had custom-made for him, but I would sure like to know more about the innards. Mosin, can you supply some more photos or at least a verbal description of the inner workings?

Lewm,

It's quite possible we may be left with a "Who was that Masked Man?" situation with Mosin.

But he did leave this part reveal about the "Backstage Pass" over at Lenco Lovers yesterday:

Andy,
Thanks for the kind remarks. I certainly appreciate them, and I share your pain for having too many projects, but not enough time.

My turntable started as a Bogen B61 which is the US equivalent of an older Lenco model. I selected it because the metal was thicker, and for no other reason. However, as the project progressed, more and more of the original turntable began to disappear. Soon, almost all was gone, and everything that remained was seriously modified. Most was dispensed with, altogether.

The linkage, for example, became a single articulated assembly which serves as a turn-on lever for the motor, and also engages the idler. The Lenco idler was completely scrapped in favor of a scratch-built assembly. The spindle and its bearing assembly were also severely modified to reduce noise, and to accommodate a new platter arrangement. The platter is a combination of part of the original, but with the addition of rubber sides and a non-compliant top. There is no mat, and while I prefer a lightweight clamp, the arrangement plays fine without one. My primary goal was to make a nice Lenco turntable that avoided the issue of VTA with the cutoff top plate corner, etc., but I went wild, and designed a tonearm module that can be quickly replaced with other ones without the fuss of alignment and other setup steps. The plinth is Baltic birch, but with a few strategically placed damping materials that work in conjunction with the turntable's integrated isolation platform. The bottom platform is not attached to the top, but the top sits on three pucks made from a slightly compliant extruded material, and the platform itself has four adjustable feet. All the horizontal sides are clad with a thin layer of black acrylic, but the sides are acrylic paint that was precisely matched to blend with the top and other horizontal surfaces. Those surfaces, all four, were rubbed to match the adjacent paint. The isolation platform is tuned to the resonances of the turntable, as best I could without sensitive measuring devices, and it is made from seven different materials. Because I like unipivot tonearms, I wanted a quick way to level the turntable. I thought level vials set into the top would be nicer than the typical bubble level. The yellow color added a nice contrast, and they are easily read. I am really happy with how that idea turned out. The light is powered by 3V LEDs that get their power from an external wall wart type power supply. That's what the additional connector is for on back of the plinth. The graphics are silver when the turntable is off, and blue when it is on. Internal mirrors diffuse the light. I hope I have covered everything.

Regards,
mosin

Needless to say, there's a full-court press going on over there to get more information. I'm not so sure it will be forthcoming.

I have growing sympathy for Win's (Mosin) predicament. On the one hand, he probably is justifiably proud of his miraculous accomplishment and wants to share that part of it, for the pats on the back he so richly deserves. Who wouldn’t? On the other hand, revealing too much may open up areas to an uncontrolled collective he deems proprietary to his design. Adding to this is his history with Jean Nantais – that rightly or wrongly he feels has been a rip. Damn me for being a fence sitter on this – but that’s an area to be settled (if ever) between the two of them.

But after a lot of re-reading and reflection, I must come down off the fence on this. Jean’s 8-10-07 post from Jerusalem was baiting and spoiling for a fight – and he got it. It would seem to me that one can’t refer to groups of people as tree-dwelling, feces-slinging Cretins, in addition to other disparaging remarks, and not expect to be venomously attacked. Our Kiosk is public, with no one-way filter. What goes around, comes around.

I’ll not ref one of those showdowns again.

- Viva Pacem
- Mario

I’ll not ref one of those showdowns again.

Wise and prudent choice, Mario.

Thanks for the post, Mario. Mosin actually clears up a lot of my questions in the context of the paragraphs you quoted. Thanks also to Mosin.

Hello all. Not posted here for a while, but feel the need after enjoying the wonderful lack of logic and misunderstanding and resulting strange assertions that follow jean's posts. I'm not sure about "feces-slinging" (i hope he did say that somewhere) but am sure of:
"With all the negativities so far in this trip (relating to the Lenco, the trip itself a fabulous adventure), it's no surprise the Yahoos, baboons and hyenas on VA continue to sling mud and deny the evidence - as all good Yahoos do - of three years and more of Mighty Lenco success"
I love jean's writing style, and accept the sentiment i think its written in. Jean has never said he is the inventor of anything, more the discoverer. He is happy for others to have discovered before him, and would doubtless praise Mosin's stunning player with its lenco motor. If you are in doubt as to what jean meant by "discover" when there are obviously more than one meaning, then I suggest you do not jump to potentially embarressing conclusions, but ASK HIM. he is always honest, courtious and erudite in reply, both privately and publically, as far as I know from being involved in both threads from near the beginning. he has also had i think many venomous private emails for every public one, so his occasional loss of calm must be seen in this context.

To right off Jean and others implimentation of the lenco and say your modern expensive deck is so much better without seemingly having heard it is frankly laughable. It also misses jean's very point of making the lenco mods simple so many could try them. The fact that they have turned out so well is wonderful for all of us. All my audiophile friends (some with extraodinarily knowledge) still laugh at me re the lenco NOT HAVING HEARD IT. however, Jean is right to say that a highly regarded EMT owner has admitted his Lenco is better, and I remember clearly Albert Porter did say on the origional thread that the lenco pre direct coupling and heavier plinths was close to his Walker and in some respects bettered it, with an inferior arm and cartridge! My Lenco outsmarted my Garrard 401 (though Jean says for him they are too close to call) and he was very aware, as I remember, of people like Shindo in Japan doing similar things before he discovered them.

Now what jean does not like, as far as i can tell, is people having blind prejudice, and judging with no evidence. In this way, he says, they are ape-like. I see this, if anything, as a slur on our leaf-eating friends, who may indeed be more intelligent than certain members of the audiophile community when the word Lenco is breathed. I can kind of understand this because i have had rather large prejudices based on limited experience, and am still learning the value of synergy.

Furthermore, jean has tirelessly and generously shared all his discoveries in vintage gear, some of which i have followed and found him to be totally accurate on. The sony V-fets smoked my leak tl12+'s, and sell on ebay for $70-$80 still! the RB300 rewired with TWL's mod equalled my Origin Live Silver. The Denon 103 is used by some of the industry's giants, and suddenly he is in very good company saying for 3 years that vintage mm's can equal modern expensive mc's. Raul used to get a lot of flack too re his dislike of stepups for mc's, until he introduced his preamp and met many of this community's high fliers who found him, like jean, to be an enthusiastic, nice and extremely knowlegable person. Suddenly people realised he has a wealth of knowledge (and gear!). And what's he saying now - that for him vintage mm's equal expensive mc's. His thread is fascinating, and like jean, he has obviously put in huge amounts of time. Yes, the Empire mm at $70 is almost as good as the Allert (sorry for mispelling) and yes he does own the Allert (and many others).

So to end my longest ever rant, this has been from the beginning the friendliest and most welcoming long term thread that i have been part of, mostly because of jean and a few others. So please dont try and spoil it as some have with your misquotes, missunderstands, or judgements of him without experience of what he is talking obout or being willing to even try it. Dont be one of those people. take Jean in the good spirit he obviously tries to share, enjoy his journeys and take what you want from it. Isnt it so amazingly cool that a "lousy" deck that still goes in the UK for $100 can approach with head held high one of the most expensive decks ever made! Isnt hifi addictively nuts, and why have i got bids on 16 bits of kit on epay right now?

mosin, your deck is absolutely amazing, and thats just the photos!

Good luck with customs jean. I have been looking forward to seeing how Srajan gets on with you and the Lenco, specially as he soes not seem to be a turntable man at all so far. It would be a shame for everyone, and specially you with the expense and work in getting there if it didnt happen.

Thanks Gilbodavid. My sentiments entirely.
Jean has enhanced our audio experience in numerous ways.
(Seems it's the same folks posting negative, non-productive comments which would be more appropriate in a gossip column.)

GD, that pesky nail-head that was tripping folks up, has been well and truly hammered flush, nice post. :)

Regards

Well - my last post did what I hoped it would - kinda. It started up some late summer Lenco discussion, but then it went all pear-shaped....

OK, some guys need for other people to acknowledge their Lenco contributions - WE HAVE HEARD YOU! Jean is not the sole inventor... merely the popularizer :) Now it will be much nicer here in the future if we can all just leave off attacking Jean by means of seeking recognition for ourselves. I know, I know, I attacked Jean once myself and it is fun - but the redundancy of the attacks is becoming boring.

NOW - look at this link: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1173550723&read&3&4&

This Raul guy makes a super interesting post about vintage, top of the line MM carts and lesser known MC's from the past that challenge some of the best current MC's. This is a feather of sorts in someone's cap - not naming names:) Of course, someone has already signed onto that thread claiming overdue credit.

Just kidding

MIKE :0)

Greetings from the Greek island of Rhodos all, a medieval fortress-city built by the Knights of St. John long ago, on the shores of the Aegean sea across from Turkey. A home away from home for me, where I've lived and worked at various reprises. I'm loving it all over again! I'm not entirely sad to report that the Irresitible Force - the Mighty Lenco - met the Immovable Object - Cypriot Customs - with the result that, despite the enormous (for me) amount of money and time and effort I invested, the review is cancelled. Why am I not entirely sad?!? Because, had it not been for the various trials and tribulations associated with making the review happen, I would not have contacted George Karaolides on Cyprus for help, and would not have landed in his living room soon after he had taken delivery of an EMT 930. So thank you Bob for setting this whole thng up, leading to the fasinating situation of a Giant Glass-Reinforced Direct Coupled Lenco being in the same room as an idler-wheel EMT 930. Pretty good shooting, blind from Canada to the eastern Mediterranean, I'd say ;-).

I've always been fortunate in my misfortunes, from the defective Garrard SP25 I was forced to strip down, thus discovering the ilder wheel principle; through the Lenco I was forced to accept instead of the Garrard I was looking for, to the moment of boredom which led me to discovering Audiogon. Now I have landed the Lenco in the same room as an EMT 930 - with myself present for once for the comparison - something I could not have done in Canada!!!

The EMT in question had been worked on and fully restored by two of Europe's leading experts, one providing the latest and greatest suspended metal frame, and the other doing the actual EMT, at a total cost of 9,000 euros, 11,000 once the matching EMT headshell is included.

Among the many misfortunes which plagued me as I approached Cyprus was the discovery that after all the RS Labs RS-A was not, due to problems, being included by the distributor for the review, something which I had been banking on. Fortunately, I had a good friend of mine riffle through my things back at the farmhouse back in Canada, who discovered the arm and airmailed it to me, with the result it arrived in time for me to use it to set up the as-yet incomplete EMT (still missing the specific and necessary headshell and cartridge).

Now this is a great story in its own right: George was a teacher of physics, and as a physicist - who nevertheless loves vinyl and analogue - he was in the habit of saying "vinyl sucks". Whenever I heard this I would correct him and say that if he thought so it was because he had not heard vinyl yet, not having heard it on a properly set-up idler-wheel drive. Of course, he took this with a couple of pounds of salt. So we set up the EMT with the Shure V15V on the RS-A1, plugged it into his electronics and via his Quad ESL-57 speakers, and George was, as he put it, shocked, speechless, and astounded. He and his partner in business Stan, who are developing an audio business (with manufacturing in mind, which explains the investment in the EMT as a Reference Source) admitted that it sounded like master tape, and they should know, as one of their hobbies is taping professional musicians in various venues on their reel-to-reel, I think a Revox, George will eventually chime in to correct me if needed on this score. Stan, also astounded, went so far as to say the EMT/RS-A1/Shure combo were superior to their master tapes, and it was eventually worked out that this was due to the original mastering equipment being superior to their own. Thus was the work and the investment vindicated, the EMT is a truly Great and stunning machine.

I waited three weeks on Cyprus for the Lenco to be released, and afer that gave up and headed to Israel and Egypt, where I waited for another three weeks before it was decided to cancel the review. Eventually the Lenoc WAS released, and since the European motor I had had shipped also surfaced (also held by Customs all that time), I decided to head back to Cyprus after all to at least finish the Lenco and find out for myself (having to rely on second hand accounts which are nevertheless reliable since they are from the very owners of the EMTs conecerned, let it be emphasized and noted) how the Lenco rated agaisnt what is considered by the cognoscenti the second-best idler in the world, the best being the larger EMT 927. I had originally planned on three days as sufficient to accomplising this, but due to various new disasters this was reduced to ONE DAY.

I arrived in Cyrus exhausted by yet further adventures/misadventures, to be confronted with a Lenco antique: the motor was corroded and cobwebbed, and was one of the very early types with three pins to select voltage. Not having any choice, we went out and bought the necessary materials, and I proceeded to rebuild and restore the motor. Yet further difficulties (they've never heard of Robertson screw tips!!!) and finally we had the motor installed, and both George and Stan present.

First impressions were about even, with different presentations (Lenco sharper, EMT "bigger," imaging different from each, Lenco forward, EMT backward) but with an annoying hardening/brightness emanating from the Lenco, which worried me (this being one of the dangers of unsuccessful Direct Coupling). Stan couldn't stand it and, to be frank, neither could I. But, in plugging in the EMT, which required unplugging the lamp standing over the Lenco, the brightness disappeared. So, the playing field began to be a contest in earnest, as it turned out that the lamp was the culprit. Now both machines were incredibly musically compelling, and George kept on saying "Thank you both for installing such incredible machines in my listening room!" But there were still some serious differences in the presentation of both machines.

But, NOW there as an annoying noise emanating from the Lenco, and this I tracked to the different VTAs reached by the RS-A!/Shure combo on both machines. I raised the RS-A1 on the Lenco, and the low-frequency scraping, AND presentation changed drastically. NOW the Lenco pulled ahead in audiophile terms, being significantly superior in its ability to resolve dense an complex passages, with finer and more extended high frequencies, and significantly better resolution of detail. Musically, they were both incredibly powerful, with the EMT having a bouncy rhythmic presentation, while the Lenco, as I've written countless times, had that characteristic unstoppable "Amazon in full flow" sound of limitless power and even presentation. The EMT was bigger and warmer sounding, the Lenco more razor-sharp and resolving. I believe the EMT's warmth is directly related to its loss of detail relative to the Lenco, its warmth being in fact "fuzziness". Why fuzziness? Because the Lenco was Direct Coupled to a large non-resonant mass, while the EMT, due its design, cannot be. Further, the EMT chassis is made of bakelite, not metal, a plastic which fails to deal with the enormous energies. Furthermore, the EMT's "bouncy/engaging" quality will, I predict, be found to be a colouration (we'll wait for George and Stan's further tests and comparisons), as this is precisely how the Lenco sounds when mounted in a low-mass plinth. The unstoppable quality has perfect timing, and reaches far more deeply into the guts/emotions/power of a performance, as the more subtle timing relationships are actually obscured by the "bouncy" quality, while they are revealed by the perfect evenness of the Amazonian Giant Mass.

Now, over the years I have proven my integrity and truthfulness. While I may not gracefully accept the various jibes, misrepresentations and frankly, lies (how else to describe claims I had written or said what I have never written or said?), punted out there about me, being as diplomatic at times as my opponents are; my reputation for fair reporting is deserved, and I do not misrepresent here. A Giant Direct Coupled Glass Reinforced Lenco is, overall and in audiopile terms (some may prefer the EMT warmth/bigness) superior to an EMT 930, and very likely all the other EMTs as well, especially given Tunein4fun's testimony, now vindicated. Now I don't say this is because the Lenco is inherently superior to the EMT (though it is becoming apparent that the Lenco is MUCH, MUCH better than originally thought), but instead because it can be Direct Coupled to a large non-resonant mass. Further, tests like these (and others like the Crush the Belt-Drive events), reveal that the combination of MDF and Russian birch-ply is incrdibly neutral, and friendly to the preservation/revelation of dynamics, being furthermore even across the frequency spectrum in all respects: incredbly extended from the lowest bass to the highest highs, with everything in-between in its proper perspective and relation, both in temrs of frequency and dynamics. If I continue to promote Giant Direct Coupled plinths for idlers it is because of the same old mission: to ensure that idlers being built out there and compared are preforming to their utmost so no false/hasty conclusions are come to. If I am now building and making these available to others, it's because of the old adage, "if you want something done right, then do it yourself." Many are in love with complexity for the sake of complexity, and a single non-resonant mass is, for them, too simple a solution, and so they oppose it. Other are disappointed if exotic Unobtainium is not included, and in this too they have been adversely influenced by high-end magazines. What IS superior is what is more effective, and if this is both simple and easily obtainable, then so much the better, as it keeps costs down, and makes it more uiversally accessible.

So I'll explain once again: a single, high, non-resonant mass quite simply prevents the enormously powerful motors in these old machines from moving, to whatever degree, the entire turntable. So long as the mass is insufficient to prevent this, the motion translates into speed instabilities. The 80-pound mass vs the 40-pound mass simply stops any extraneous, and damaging, motion, and focuses the motor's entire energies on simply revolving the platter at the correct, and unstoppable, speed, as Stylus Force Drag is a MUCH more serious problem than previously believed. The Direct Coupling increases the effectiveness of the mass, plus it provides a MUCH more effective way of sinking noise from every source, providing a jet-black background against which the incredibly potency of the idler motor and system can be heard, that master-tape-like result which so astounded George and Stan.

Finally, a Giant Direct Coupled plinth can be fairly easily (or rather relatively) accomplished, not requiring the years of effort an extremely complex assembly requires, and so makes the astounding results more accessible to the world at large, and ensures, according to my own personal mission, that the idlers be heard in their greatest glory in larger numbers and across more countries, cities, listening rooms. I'm not saying that there is not or will never be an improvement on this simple and sensible, recipe, just that effectively, I am extracting results which many fail to do, thus proving the extreme effectiveness of this recipe.

Finally, according to many out there, the Lenco STILL ranks behind the Garrard and with the EMTs at the top, and isn't it interesting that this is the precise ladder of cost, with the Lenco cheapest, the Garrards more expensive, and the EMTs most expensive of all? Ths is the same old Audio as Status problem raising its head after all these years, and it was my stance against this which was the true reason for the original threads's success in the beginning: bucking the system. Always a rebel, never a conformist it appears. I'll say this too, though many of my most "rabid" opponents will LOVE this: Having heard the SIGNIFICANT gap, in audiophile terms (NOT musicaltiy), between the EMT 930 and the Giant Direct Coupled Glass Reinforced Lenco, I can with confidence say that the Garrard also is superior to the EMT 930 (and ths also of the lesser direct drives, and likley the EMT 927 too), PROVIDED, you guessed it, it is Direct Coupled to a high non-resonant mass.

So, all that said, I'll continue reporting my favourite sport of Crush the Belt-Drive, as right now I am FINALLY conquering that most resistant of audiophile pockets, my own home town, who while I was away obtained my own Bauhaus Lenco, and are currently being mass-converted to the Mightiness of the Idler and the Lenco. One's own home town or country is ALWAYS the toughest to conquer, which is why so many Canadian musicians, for istance, Neil Young, Joni Mithell, etc.) end up living in the US. And it started with the Crushing of a late-edition TNT/Graham 2.2 combo. Other pricier and well-respected belt-drives wait to be Crushed (THAT battle still cotinues, though we are definitely making inroads), and the only way I can access these is to sell Giant Direct Coupled Glass Reinforced Lencos to the men who own the truly megabuck belt-drives. I want to work my way up the ladder all the way to the $100K league, and settle this issue once and for all.

For the record, I do not like and never intended doing competitions between various idlers, I have always used the cheap and numerous Lencos to prove the superiority of the idler wheel drive system, as I have written from the very beginning. The Lenco is not necessarily inherently superior to the EMT: it is its ability to be Direct Coupled which accounts for its icredible abilities. This is the best and simplest way to deal with the idler-wheel system's defects (a too-powerful motor, but just powerful enough to deal with Stylus Force Drag), and to extract the MOST with the LEAST effort and materials. To those who want to experiment and are evidently having fun, I enourage and cheer you on, but this is separate from my mission to prove the idler's superiority to the other two systems: belt-drive and direct drive.

On the subject of direct drive: I am not so much opposed to direct drives in general (though I AM confident that the idler is superior, but we'll see), as to the use of quartz-locking in direct drives, which I beleve is audible, negatively, by the human ear. I was suprised when I first heard the servo-controlled Technics SL-1100, which unlike my SP-10 MKII was fluid and musical (instead of dry and unmusical), and was REALLY gobsmaked by the incredible filigree-detailed and fluid servo-controlled Sony 2250/2251. So I am truly looking forward to building one of these into a high non-resonant plinth (AND, of course, Direct Coupled) to see what it can REALLY do. Perhaps I am wrong about the inherent superiority of the idler, and, as I've reversed myself before when confronted with FACTS (i.e. actual comparisons, such a 40 pounds vs 80 pounds), I'll reverse myself here. I am DYING of curiosity and, after all my misadventures, truly look forward to getting back to my workshop.

And good news to those who want MORE budget Giant Killers: I want to emphasize to all that the EMT is a truly ASTOUNDING machine, compelling, master-tape-like, POWERFUL, but, and there's always a but, I couldn't help thinking "Rek-o-Kut Rondine" when I heard it as, to my ears, they sounded precisely alike, and interstingly, via the same speakers, Quad ESL-57s. So I'll be rebuilding and reporting on this as well when I get back. I'm dying to get back to my workshop!!

Finally, I hope we can all simply stick to the subject, deal with logic, engineering problems and solutions, and leave all the personal crap behind and revert back to reason, discussions, evidence, information-swapping, start with a clean slate. To those who accuse me of "big words", I say, I post the words of the owners of the machines being "crushed", this is good evidence, the testimony of the owners of the machines who, if we were to grant prejudice, would be more likely to be prejudiced in favour of the machines they paid big bucks for instead of the Lencos or Garrards or others they are reporting. There is, in fact, no better evidence. These types dismiss all evidence contary to their expectations as "anecdotal" (but after what number of reports does it cease to be anectdotal?), and all similar reports which support their expectations as unquestionable. If they refuse to try Giant Direct Coupled plinths, I am here to send them out for more testimony, and I will do so, in the spirit of strict observance of scientific verification. For instance the "theory" that all crows are black only holds until a true white crw is found. A sigle white crow is found, an is termed an "anomaly". This is how science works: using a workable and useful "theory" (as MOST crows are black) until something that better describes the reality comes along. As the number of white crows increases (i.e. Lenco/Idlers), so the need for a new theory/paradigm increases.

The Lenco/Idlers are NOT only about audiophile strengths (though in terms of detail-retrieval, dynamics and frequency extension they are unequalled and astounding), but primarily about bringing home the musial message intended by the musical artists, about musical POWER, and those who refuse to enter into the Great Experiment are truly cutting off their noses to spite their faces. These old machines are relatively cheap, and with ENORMOUS musical payback. They are NOT a threat, but istead a Gift. Take it and accept it as one.

So, on that note, I have one week left to unwind from what has been THE most stressful experience of my lfe. Though I thank Bob deeply for his support, enthusiasm and the end result, (which will continue to happen, as there are some truly BIG possibilities for that Review Lenco which will be reported on as time progresses and should the Audio Gods smile on this new venture), the next fellow to suggest I go through "official channels" (i.e. review in a mainline magazine) will be shot immediately. My karma is "Rebel", not "Conformist/System", and my luck only extends in that direction. I look forward to the day when I can, my objectives met, oblivious to discussions and forums, simply tinker away in my peaceful workshop in the country, eating lunch in the lovely Jennifer's restaurant, putting firewood in the woodstove early on a frosty winter morning, and consider my next experiment. To all those idler-tinkerers out there, I wish you the same pleasure I have in restoring/excavating/realizing these superb old machines!! Enjoy all, I'm going off-line again until I am resettled again in my workshop!!

Good for you Jean, the six moons thing was exciting, but those types of publications are still tailored for the price no object crowd whom are not usually DIY types, no sweat, the Lenco continues to amaze all whom endeavor to build one.

I'm still amazed at my giant with my Sakuma San arm and re-tipped 103.

but why can't Johnnantais just send a Lenco to the 6moons guys without all this ado. I am now refurbishing a Thorens and can't see why he can't just finish the thing somewhere and ship it to them. What am I missing? Seems curious that the Lenco went missing long enough to cancel the review.

If Johnnantais wanted to really get the word out he would have made the handoff to the 6moons guys. Customs issues for a seasoned world traveler? C'mon, whuts up?

BTW, I haven't invented anything and I don't want no credit for anything.

Always have to bring it back to the same old muck, issues of "credit," the same stuff which has poisoned what should have been an entirely pleasurable - if sometimes stormy (on issues of engineering, measurements, results/experiments, etc.) - venture. Customs on imported things is an entirely different issue from crossing borders with a passport: I have never, until the Home Despot thing started, dealt with exporting and importing, beyond using the post office (and yes, even here things were sometimes delayed by months). If you use your head instead of your venom-sacks, you might see that many are in the export-import business for decades without ever leaving their home town (including Customs officials who never see more than stamps and places of origin), while travellers like me do not deal with Customs ever, beyond waiting for a shipped package and paying duties. The HUGE summer back-up overextended my own resources and time as well as the magazine's schedule, end of story. BTW, I never invented anything either, nor claimed to (which you would know if you weren't simply another purveyor of ugly hearsay with no interest in examining the public record and discovering the truth), just recognized and understood certain things, tinkered with and in some cases improved what had already been tried, and did what I could to promote it: i.e. start the "Building high-end 'tables cheap at Home Despot" thread, do my bit to encourage people to participate by example and logical argument, and participate in various vinyl forums. It's the thread's success - NOT failures - which attracted the flies, or in this more particular case "gadflies", an apter description I cannot find. Now can we PLEASE get back to the issues: drive systems, idler-wheel drives, and Lencos?!?

This thread and the original - along with activites across many audio forums - is the collection of the independent testimony of people - the owners of the 'tables outperformed by the Lenco and other large idlers - and this is more than good enough, in fact, it's a phenomenon involving people from around the world, and which continues. I've personally learned my lesson and will not be seeking official channels again, my luck just doesn't run that way, and this is how I make my decisions (learned by months-long sometimes years-long travels with no plans, I know when a path is not my own). Lencos and other idlers will continue to be compared and auditioned - in greater and greater numbers - around the world, and how these eventually reach the audio press (and they already have in a few articles) is only a spectator sport for me from now on as far as I'm concerned (far too many non-performance related issues for my tastes, which is precisely why audio forums are so popular; better acidental discoveries - as in the positive-feedback TNT vs Garrard article - than planned reviews).

To the rest, getting back to original issues and the fun of discovery, the Lencos and other idlers - mine and others world-wide - will continue to be compared and reported on, on this forum as well as others. As with the crows, the constant addition of what is initially dismissed as/termed "anecdotal evidence" will, by its very weight and numbers, become simply "evidence". So don't stop building, don't stop comparing and experimenting, don't stop trying it out and tracking down those old machines, and best of all, don't stop reporting and sharing! To those who haven't tried, you have no idea of just how much MUSICAL information (as well as ENORMOUS amounts of detail) is waiting in those vinyl grooves waiting to be released, and you truly are missing a grand experience. Good luck all and have FUN, and share with generosity of time AND spirit, in a positive spirit of helpfulness. See ya all when I get back to Canada and have time to recover from all these adventures (for instance, it was HELL to get out of Israel, as both the Jewish New Year's AND Muslim Ramadan started the same day I arrived in Israel). And to be more specific re. the EMT/Rek-o-Kut comparison: the EMT had the same character/sound as the Rek-o-Kut Rondine I heard via the same speakers (I'm NOT saying equalivalent in audiophile terms), and I am truly dying to see how far the Rondine can go when Direct Coupled. Vive la Lenco, Vive la Idler Wheel!

To the unbelievers!
The Lenco is indeed a FANTABULOUS machine!!!
As to Jean's great efforts to prove the Lencos attributes- dead on stability, clean, quiet and and vibrant dynamics- attributes which allow the cartridge to ride in the groove with such incredible accuracy, my LPs bring chills both mellow and exciting- ignore the fools who don't want to believe, the ones who will only listen to some high paid reviewer, right or wrong, and allow them to form their opinions for them. (Remember, it means more Lencos for us).
Thanks Jean. Sorry about the customs frustration. I've had items sit in Italy and Korea for weeks. I understand.

I believe. I got an idler. I'd get a Lenco if they were laying around. don't pride yourself on finding something that people have been doing for a while on their own. sheesh.

So I guess the Johnnantais gave me his comeuppance. I guess I am all pro the idler and a wee bit all blanched out on the Johnnantais cult.

I guess you cannot say anything even slightly off color about the Johnnantais or you get an attitude from him and a lot of puffery.

I don't care really. Well I am off to bed now one and all. To dream idler dreams. I will arise tomorrow and sniff the thinning air for idler parts and make my daily trip to the Home Depot in Calais. Rhodes will see me next where I will bluster and puff my way through a powdery cloud of hoofah.

you guys have GOT to be joking.

well, I guess we will not see an outside non-vested party review the Johnnantais Lenco. That would put a little objective twist to things which I can only conclude that the Johnnantais does not really want.

All together now, "Good luck Johnnantais, we all love you immensely".

I am now finally completing my humble refurbishing of my TD-111. The plinth is at least on a par with the Johnnantais tables I have seen. I am willing to do an independent shootout if the Johnnantais would send me a Lenco.

BTW, this Direct Coupled thing? My understanding is that 99.9% of all idlers were direct coupled to plinth, panels, tables, consoles, etc as they were originally built for installment that way. Nothing new or Revolutionary in the direct coupled approach, it is the standard approach. There have been sprung supports and skeletal supports but I think those are more outside the box that this not new Direct coupled approach.

Dear Gadfly,
Tell me more about your TD-111 and less about your personal obsession with Jean and what you think he did or did not claim to invent or discover. No one gives a darn either way.

Dear everyone else,
Jean built me a giant plinth for my Lenco. I've had it up and running for about a week. The results are cosmetically beautiful, and the sound is divine. It makes good sounding LPs sound better than ever before and breathes life into previously disappointing ones. For these things, I am grateful to those who brought idler-driven tts to my attention in the first place and to Jean for his labors and insights.

and helpful contributions to the thread, dipwad. I know I'll be bookmarking them for future reference.

Don

personal obsession with Jean? I didn't think they'd post that first one so I wrote another but then and now I see that there is no gainsaying the goofy.

I don't give a darn either. bye bye. Johnnantais invented the internet.

Full comment - Dear Gadfly, thank you for your insightful and helpful contributions to the thread, dipwad. I know I'll be bookmarking them for future reference. And the internet comment was very clever; did you make that up yourself?

Don

"Da Thread II" Year end Statistics:
520 Posts
76,267 Views
Nobody died.

Now for something completely different: A new Lenco - "Interstate l-75" in "My System"

- Mario

It is beautiful indeed. Looking forward to see it after completion.
Mario, I am about to start a project of my own. Do you know where can I get a cutout template for Leno 75 ?
Keep us posted.

Mariusz

Mario,
Thanks for posting your project photos. The Peter Plate looks great in red and your design is an inspiration.
Please keep us posted.
I know what I'll be doing this Winter!!!

Dear Musicus53,

My thread was helpful in exposing the myth of the Johnnantais. You guys need that. There are people who are building plinths all over the place who have never heard of Self Promoter le Johnnantais.

Let me spread my own Epistle.

Oregon is that you ??? M.....l ?

OK Gadfly, do as your handle implies and buzz off to snipe somewhere else. You’ve become repetative in your negativity, so maybe you’ve convinced yourself that there’s good reason to hate others more than yourself.

Hi mrjstark,
This link will take you to a forked link page to choose either the printer or CAD ready version of the L-75 template.
http://www.lenco-lovers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=953
And thanks to both you and Oregon for the nice words.

All best,
Mario

Gadfly - wow, you are a bit of a strange fellow. It's reassuring that you know what "we" need without knowing who we are, our systems, our musical knowledge/experience, our relationships with and/or knowledge of Jean, or our ability to evaluate information for ourselves. Perhaps you need to soak your own head in brine or some other substance in order to reduce the swelling.

Mario, when you say that your plinth "captures" the bearing, I can see that the bearing goes thru one layer of the plinth, but is it tightly fitted into a hole in that layer? IOW, is that how you capture the bearing? I would think that some sort of clamping mechanism might get a better grip on the bearing, so that one could tighten down on it mechanically. Did you consider that approach? Perhaps if the metal extenders on your arm pod were to penetrate all the way thru to the bearing and terminate in a clamp, that might do the trick, or one might devise wood-based adjustable clamps incorporated into a layer of the plinth. (Easy for me to say; I haven't built a plinth yet.) Beautiful execution of an interesting concept. I love the curves in the plinth from an artistic standpoint, and they may further reduce resonance characteristics, too.

I have seen the work of the Johnnantais and all I can say is that it looks third rate. Can't say how it sounds because he won't send me one ... he won't it to anyone to review.

I have a Thorens I am just finishing up and as rough as it is it 'looks' much better than most of the work from the Johnnantais.

I am just a vinyl lover like the rest of you. Johnnantais is the cat in the chicken coop.

If postings to this site are truly reviewed prior to being made available to the rest of us, it is surprising that posts such as the one above are permitted, since it, and others from this same individual, do nothing to further the aim of this discussion. Socrates was often referred to as a Gadfly, but his writings and teachings were enlightening and furthered a discourse that was much more important and fundamental than the present one. Yet, he met an untimely end as a result of his efforts. Perhaps this Gadfly could be persuaded to stifle himself or write something informative, at least.

For those interested in Mario's beautiful Interstate Lenco it might be interesting to know that his topplate is a cut down version of the special laser cut plate I designed. I am at the moment planning another series of these plates. If anybody is interested have a look here: http://www.lenco-lovers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1520

Peter

Socrates kept asking questions that were embarrassing to the people who thought they knew something ... when in fact, they didn't. Which is annoying.

He met an untimely death at his own allowance. He allowed them to kill him.

I think postings are reviewed and they might think my questions are germain.

So, again, why wont the Johnnantais ultimately follow through on providing a review table?

Hi Lewm,

Actually, someone on the original “Home Despot” thread did exactly as you suggested. He clamped the bearing sleeve with wood. His work was in the back of my mind when I began experimenting with this version. (Actually, I tried it out first in a partially assembled plinth for a Presto Pirouette idler.) Not taking anything away from the original clamp capture, I shied away from it because of the potential of adding sideways stress to the bearing – albeit something that would have more potential for harm in the original thin Lenco top plate than with Peter’s 4mm plate.

To answer your question, it is a tight fit. I drilled a hole smaller than the bearing sleeve and sat down to carefully rat tailed & sanded the hole until the sleeve just went in with a bit of pressure. This hole was the starting point of the plinth build – in other words everything keyed in both above and below to this coupling. Having had to pull the bearing through this hole some eight or nine times in construction has “loosened the fit somewhat. But there’s still quite a bit of contact and I’ll probably smear some non-hardening caulk to the hole sides before “final” assembly.

- Mario

Mario, Thanks for the link.
You are a life saver.
Keep it up.

"Dream as you would live forever - Live as you would die tomorrow".

"Innovator with big ideas buried deep inside his head is nothing mora then a dreamer".

Postings are indeed reviewed, which became apparent when the original Home Despot thread met an untimely, and some still suspect, conspiratorial end. Postings to this, new forum that challenged the "official" version of the destruction of the original Home Despot thread, often were not approved.

Coupling the bearing seems like a great idea. But somehow one has to build the plinth in order also to allow that at some time during its life the chassis may have to be removed for repair or other mods, etc. I'm sure you've thought of that. I too thank you for the reference.

Hi Lewn,

There's nothing "locking" about the bearing sleeve coupling. The top plate comes on and off just as it would with a free floating bearing. It's slips in and out of that 3/4 Baltic ply layer just a bit more snugly.

- Mario

Hello from the Country all, I've been overcoming Culture Shock in reverse, adapting to Western society after months spent in a Middle Eastern lifestyle and mind-set. I confess I do miss the walks along the beaches and in the mountains and medieval fortress cities, the movement and the exotic situations!! But, it's back to work and setting up the workshop after it had been mothballed for months. Out here the internet is snail-slow, but I'm working on this.

I'd like to thank you all for your support in the face of DungBeetle (who is obssessed not with the truth, but instead with mud-slinging and uncoveriung mopre dirt, evidently, being satisfied with nothing else...we'll go back to his old name when he shows evidence of positive as well as negative attitudes, and actual investigation of the situation). Telling that these types have to resort to my ancient pre-professional cabinet-maker plinths (I hired one to train me and help me out in gaining the Wyetech Lenco score for the brilliant PR/evidence this provided) I have let stand under my "system" to encourage novices (as I was then) to join in, be proud regardless (have fun and be creative to substiutute for ultimate quality of finish) and add to the store of evidence; questions of aesthetics being counted as superior to issues of performance, simply put a pissing contest. Even more incredible to me that some find this sort of issue/attack acceptable and join in. Those watching who are interested in the truth and the public record can download the original thread at Lenco Lovers, inspect my own Audiogon "system" (also for photos of my later more aesthetically acceptable work which has been there for close on two years now ;-)), and use their heads to put together the real story by extrapolation and some research.

Moving on to more pleasant matters, I've been thinking about the Lenco vs EMT 930 experience in Cyprus, which settles various issues I was thinking about. To wit, whether the Lenco with European motor running off European voltages and cycles sounds precisely the same as the same Lenco running in NA, a question which has come up in various e-mails. Happy to report that to these ears the Lenco sounded precisely identical in both contexts, which should be the case as the Lenco first blew me away in Europe before being shipped back to Canada/NA a decade later.

Another aspect of the experiment concerns a favourite subject of mine: the issue of subjective vs objective evidence. I have always been on record saying that music is NOT an entirely objective experience, of course, and so we must trust our bodily and emotional reactions in determining the superiority of various engineering solutions to reproducing music (and this includes the old MM vs MC debate ;-)). I.E.: if one 'table makes/forces you up out of your chair while the next makes it entirely an passive intellectual experience, then the one which raises you up is dong something right while the one which leaves you untouched emotionally and biologically is doing something wrong. Furthermore, there are engineering/scientific reasons for this, and in the case of record players this has everything to do with issues of speed stability. The ultimate scientific tool is the human ear, and trumps all theories and measuring instruments and systems in the context of home audio systems.

Since it is impossible to have perfection in any physical manifestation (i.e. there are always imperfections), then the issue becomes one of which types of imperfections in speed stability the human ear is sensitive to. So, for instance, I believe quartz-locking/referencing DDs is a mistake, as the human ear is extremely sensitive to the resulting form of speed INstability (negatively affected), however impressive the test figures are, which are necessarily averaged out in any testing. Idler-wheel drives (and belt-drives), however, are a purely analog/momentum solution to the issue of speed stabilty, and both are more fluid-sounding (less "dry"/analytical) than the quartz-locking DD solution. I'll write more on this later when I have more time to think and write and experiment.

All this leading up to another subjective reaction I had when listening to the EMT 930 vs Lenco: while the EMT was undeniably powerful, fluid, entertaining and rivetting, the Lenco did that familiar trick, raising the hairs in my arms and causing me to shiver, something the EMT failed to do. The Lenco - Direct Coupled to a high non-resonsant mass (which the EMT cannot be to the same extent) and Glass-Reinforced to address the resonant top-plate - provides not only better resolution of complex material than the 9,000 euro EMT, more detail, more high-frequency extension and greater focus - it provides a deeper musical experience, and I submit the Prime Directive in the reproduction of music in the home is depth of musical experience; detail and such-like being more in the nature of icing on the cake. This applies as well to the MM vs MC debate, which was my angle all along, not really matters of detail/information-retrieval, though indeed certain MMs - Deccas, some Grados, upper Pickerings and vintage Ortofons - do indeed extract an astonishing amount of information when sympathetically set-up. I'm happy to report however that some MCs do indeed provide an intense PRaT-filled musical experience (usually the preserve of good MMs), such as the Ortofon SPUs, the Ortofon Jubilee, and the Denon DL-103s (in its various guises). In terms of musical intensity, only the Denon matches a good MM (and moving irons) so far, while adding that extra focus/clarity MCs are so good at.

Anyway, this is me getting trying to get back on track after my months-long interruption, I'm setting up a new system and experiment with different components, thanks again for all your support and kind words, keep the Idler Ball rolling!! I'll be back with more as I once again get exposed to the sound of idler-wheel drives and various other 'tables, including the Sony 2250 DD. Over to you all and your respective reports and experiences now ;-), I'll be a while settling in and cogitating and experimenting. WHAT fun!!

Hello again fellow idler-wheelers: I'm here to report the latest bout of Crush the Belt-Drive. Once again, a VPI TNT, earlier edition (MKII I believe) was Crushed by a Giant Direct Coupled Lenco. The way it happened is more interesting than the fact that it happened, it being such a common occurrence and all ;-). As an aside, it doesn't occur to some that not only am I not exaggerating when I use the word "Crush" - a word which I am told some who have compared the rim-drive Teres 'tables to their own belt-drives have used - but that I am quite simply right about the inherent superiority of the idler-wheel drive system to the belt-drive system. This is not hypoerbole, not a stunt to attract attention. Of course, the unabashed use of "big" words DOES work as a PR tactic, but in this case entirely justified, as years of growing conversions attests. As I contantly write: how is it possible to exaggerate something which has not yet met even close to its match (the whole issue in the use of the word "Crush")?!? Also interestingly, Teres use the words "Direct Coupled", complete with caps, on their own website to describe their own version of the rim-drive.

Anyway, this fellow belongs to a jazz group who move meetings from sound-room to sound-room, each taking turns hosting, and all having quite serious systems. That evening it was held at John's place, who has posted previously on this and the old threads, who had a Giant Direct Coupled Garrard 301 (grease-bearing) set up with a Morch UP-4 (heavy wand) and Decca Super Gold, the best tonearm I have yet heard, incidentally, with the Decca. The fellow was smitten, and saw my Bauhaus Lenco sitting there on the floor. Being told it too was an idler-wheel drive, he did not hesitate and offered to buy it on the spot. This in a system which is not his, reminds me of the time more than a decade ago when I instantly heard the Greatness of the Idler when I had accidentally (unplanned) modded a humble Garrard SP-25. It shows this sort of out-of-context epiphany can happen to more than just one person. I arranged to loan it to him from Greece while I was traveling so he could test it out in his system, and he sent me the following words: "I finally got the Bauhaus over here and set it up with John's Rega arm and my cartridge. The VTA probably is not right but who cares. All I can say is: STUNNING! Truly, it is better than I could have imagined." As context, the VPI was set up with a Graham 2.2 ceramic tonearm, so in this way the VPI TNT had the advantage. In the end I had to build him an entirely new one to accommodate the different geometry of his Graham tonearm, and I'm keeping the Bauhaus for my own RS-A1, STILL one of the most sonically superb tonearms ever built, and an incredible sonic bargain.

I forgot in my list of projects to mention Reinderspeter's top-plates, something which is definitely on the agenda. In fact, I bought two, one being for two-tonearms and one for the Lenco-Noll project (it being slated to be married to a Maplenoll tonearm).

On the home audio front I continue to learn lessons and to plumb the depths of vintage audio: I am back to my Sony TAE-5450 preamp, which handily outperformed a Classé DR-5 preamplifier, which shows just how good the old Sonys really are (from back in the days when Sony was targeting McIntosh). Various of my amps were taken out by a defective ARC SP-8 (eventually repaired, but too late for my amps), so I was forced to resort to an untested Sony TA-3140F, which I originally ran with my new Klipsch Heresy MKIs. This was too bright, and out came my ESS AMT-4s, which provided not only the best balance, but also the most magic in this set-up. In fact, I'm pretty well back to the set-up I originally had when I started the original thread!! And it's STILL magical. For those who have forgotten, these vintage Sony electronics - especially from 1966 (TA-3130F, TA-3140F etc.) to 1976 (V-fets, TAE-5450, TAE-8450, etc.) are superb vintage electronics which see off many serious current pieces, especially in terms of overall dynamics, richness and that elusive PRaT; and the ESS speakers use the Oskar Heil Air-Motion Transformers, and as mid-to-high frequencies transducers have never been matched, let alone beaten (high-efficiency allied to beautiful detail and astounding dynamics). To my ear, and from extrapolating from readings, the AMT4s - the world's largest mini-monitors ;-) - are one of the most successful marriages of woofer to ultra-fast AMT transducers.

Anyway, have fun all, there are magical marriages to be found at all levels and all times, and for those on a tight budget vintage audio - ESPECIALLY the Lencos - is STILL the best way to go, with a little luck ;-)!

Hey Jean, I have actually done some work on my Giant Lenco #2 recently. (My work schedule kills me) In fact, all I have to do is finish sand and route some slots for arm boards. This one is a layer cake with MDF, birch ply and wall board - covered in band sawn veneer. Its ridiculous how many arms and carts I have now that I have never used - your fault. Still highly curious to heat them all.

BTW: over the summer, a Sony TAE 8450 was offered on ebay - the bids were low and the guy pulled it before I got a chance to bid.

MIke

Hi, Jean

Could you clarify vintage Sony amps for me? I have a vague memory of you saying the "F" series were VFETs, yet your last post differentiates them from the TAE series. Also I think you said originally that VFET amps needed an easy load to drive and lacked bass control? Could you also tell me which are the best sounding vintage/VFET amps in order and how they go with electrostatics? Thanks.

Hi Mike, guilty as charged :-)!! I myself still have all those tonearms, which I have never yet heard on a Giant Direct Coupled Glass-Reinforced Lenco. I'm REALLY curious to hear the Black Widow on this later Super Lenco, as well as the Mayware (which some say is superior to the pricey SME V), the SME 3009 MKII, my NOS Transcriptors Vestigal (which achieves state of the art detail with Grados) and especialy my new NOS Audio Technica ATP-12 tonearm, which appears to be built to higher standards than the superb AT 1005 MKII. For this detail I am currently constructing a workhorse Lenco to take everything from ultra-short tonearms (Vestigal) to ultra-long tonearms, so my fun will be endless. Probably the wrong thing to do for an analogue obssessive like myself :-).

Hi Wolf: I myself was confused by all the different vintage Sony lore, the best place to learn about the chronology of their developments is on The Vintage Knob, at www.thevintageknob.org. The reason I thought the earlier Sony electronics (TA-3130, TA-3130F, etc.) were V-fets was because of thir very rich and tubey sound, the V-fets being called the tube of the transistor world. But the V-fets came along later in the mid-'70s. The "F" designation on the earlier amps was their special audiophile version of what were already superb electronics, Sony's Statement to the world of their seriousness at the time. The earlier amps were simple TOS-3 amps, and yet I prefer them to the later and much more famous V-fet series. But the V-fets ARE superb, just that they're pussycats, not being able to deal with more difficult loads, needing easy speaker impedances, low reactivity and so on in order to sound their considerable best. I have heard that the V-fets are very good with electrostatics. The series I'm aware of is the X-450 series receivers, amps and preamps. And btw, I'm DYING to get my hands on a TAE-8450 Mike, I already have the earlier Statment premap, a 2000F, which is also superb.

And keeping on the track of Vintage and The Illusion of Progress, let's once again consider those old idler-wheel drives: the Garrards, Lenco, Rek-0-Kuts and others of the Days of Yore. These are STILL, apart from DD (which as you all know I consider inferior, perhaps due to the quartz-locking, experiments still to come with the servo-controlled variety - like the Sony 2250 - which are definitely more fluid-sounding), the only 'tables designed from the ground up, INCLUDING THE MOTOR, to combat the now evidently serious problem of Stylus Force Drag, which it was thought was dealt with by the simple momentum of heavy platters on belt-drives (NOT). These motors are extremely high-torque, large and powerful, and spin at roughly 1500-1800 RPMs, thus eradicating to a certain extent their own speed imperfecftions (no physical system is perfect). They are coupled very securely by a rubber wheel (which doesn't stretch or contract or slip, given basic maintenance) to their own platters, which are themselves flywheels, on the heavier models, regulating the motor's performance, thus creating a closed system which is utterly immune to Stylus Force Drag. Direct Coupling to a high mass (minimum 70 pounds) deals absolutely with the very powerful motors, leaving the field clear for state of the art audio performance in every area: detail, imaging, black backgrounds, dynamics, frequency extension at both extremes, razor sharp transients and most of all MAGIC...in fact, it is again not hyperbole to say that if one has not heard vinyl on a vintage idler-wheel drive so set-up, then one hasn't heard vinyl, PERIOD. Close to 20 years on, I continue to be amazed by the performance of these machines, as do all those who hear them, as attested by the latest convert in my previous post.

Anyway, keep having fun all, and don't forget those stellar and cheap vintage speakers as well, such as the Klipsch Heresies (MKI's with the metal horns), the AR2ax's and AR3a's (the world's smallest full-range speakers ;-)) and of course the ESS AMT-4's (the world's largest and heaviest mini monitors ;-))!!

With all due respect, Jean, the Sony ES stuff of recent years is pretty good for solid state, but those earlier efforts to me always sounded artificial, closed in, "gray", and the epitome of what one means when one refers to "transistor sound". Perhaps I hooked them up to the wrong speakers. I'll keep an open mind.

Just to stay on topic, long live Lenco and idler drive! I'm waiting with curiosity for the first new megabuck idler. It's gotta happen.

Lew,
It seems what you wait for is not far in the future.
A friend of mine is an audio reviewer/writer. He tells me that Teres, maker of high end belt drives, plans to dump the belt drive line (except for there most expensive one) and go with rim drive, vintage design. Seems they have come to realize what Jean and many others have- belt drive is not the answer to stablity!
Us Lenco lovers know that what we hear is far superior to many modern day belt drives.
Finally, Teres has awaken and seeks the PRAT that we have been enjoying.
I wonder when the other manufacterers will hear the magic?
Enjoy your Lencos!!!

Teres is not quite there yet. They make a true direct-drive, the Certus, and have recently been marketing their accessory motor, the Verus, which can turn certain belt drives, including their own tts, into rim drive. But so far no one has come to market with a complete new rim drive table, let alone an idler drive type. I would love to see it happen, just for historical interest and so I could sit back and see how the reviewers handle it.

Actually, there are two new megabuck idler-wheel drives, built by Loricraft, who in turn bought the rights to the Garrard name, which had ended up in the hands of a Brazilian company!! They make the Garrard 501, and I believe the lower-priced (but still very expensive) 601. With snail e-mail out here in the country it's just too painful for me to go searching on Da Net for the info.

One of the improvements Loricraft have made is in the motor, which as I understand it is designed so the motor spindle/rotor rides on a magnetic cushion to reduce noise. Too bad they don't believe in Direct Coupling to a high mass, as noise problems are still reported for these new machines by some, and of course there would also be a HUGE improvement in speed, information-retrieval, imaging and so on. Then there would be no need to go the misguided route one fellow resorted to of using a belt to drive the platter, a Heresy!! Anyway, Hi Fi + magazine did a very nice review of the 501 a couple of years back I think.

On the issue of early solid state, these types of reports are exactly why I steered clear of early SS electronics until relatively recently, just as so many steered clear of the Idler for so many years for similar negative reports. The press said Idlers had problems A, B, C and D, and the consumers heard these problems and turned their backs. It's difficult to say how much of what we hear is actually heard, and how much is conditioned by the press and industry (which did a similar hack job on tubed electronics in the '70s). I'm not saying you didn't hear what you heard, Lew, just that at the first hint of problems, we tend to side with the press/industry; but conversely, if the press and industry tell us that a piece of crap is great, we will spend months optimizing (and end up with a piece of crap we refuse to let go, convincing ourselves we have improved our systems...megabuck blet-drives come to mind ;-).

Anyway, some say I am their guru, I in turn have a Vintage Guru, an unassuming fellow, typical French Canadian "Bon Vivant" (life centres on eating, drinking good wine and beer and telling stories) who thinks anyone who discovers these vintage SS pieces (especially higher-end PIoneer stuff) sound good have finally "woken up". I get all my vintage tonearms and cartridges (and now electronics and speakers) from him, as I simply love driving out to visit him (in a small historic town south of Montreal), drink giant beers in the local pub, eat gourmet food, shoot the sh*t, and drive away with a car full of goodies (he's a "picker", the best in NA). Anyway, he kept bugging me to buy this little shoe-box of an amp, the Sony 3130F, and I kept condescendingly refusing, secure in the knowledge he didn't know good equipment (I hadn't yet "woken up").

Finally, I accepted - I was using tube monoblocks and thought I could use the SS power for parties - took it home, hooked it up, and was blown away by what I heard: the little Sony out-tubed my tube monoblocks, sounding richer, with more PRaT, more dynamic, better imaging and transparency and with none of the glassiness I couldn't eliminate from the tube amps!! I soon sold the tubes (to a very happy fellow), then bought the Sony TAE-5450 (V-fet and similar in its tubey richness and PRaT) which also blew me away, and which finally turned me into a full-on vintage nut (though I do have a very-new cutting-edge SS amp and still experiment with newer preamps, though I have to say that overall the ARC SP8 is my favourite preamp overall).

Some say the transformers actually age like fine whiskey and sound better with time, and of course after all these years the electronics are fully burned-in, and this may also account for the different experiences. Wiring has also progressed (in my case Music Boy/Petra interconnects and solid-core speaker cable), as well as set-up (vibration control under the electronics), so the potential can be realized, just as Direct Coupling to a high mass realizes the potential of Idlers.

Speaking of which: I've begun the Rek-o-Kut Rondine experiment (very quiet massive motor), and will report in stages as my listening impressions and struggles/solutions develop!! I LOVE the RS-A1 tonearm, which I can unceremoniously plunk on any table, instantly (simply sits there with no bolting), and audition any 'table in a known context (tonearm/cartridge/system). Have fun all, and Vive la Idler Wheel, Vive la Lenco (the instrument of the Downfall of the Belt ;-))!!!

Teres is also going to be offering a replacement motor/idler system for the Garrards, I read (FWIW). Maybe for Lencos some time too, ya never know ( turn it sideways? ;-) ). Obviously They actually listened to idlers and found out how good they are. I'm really starting to like that company!

Jean, Now that I think of it, I do recall a good feeling about the Sony TAE products. It's the earlier and maybe the later ones up to the SE line that I did not like at all.

Wouldn't you consider the Loricraft tables to just be latter day copies of the Garrards?

The Teres motor for Garrard is just their Verus set up to work on the inside rim of the Garrard platter.

Oregon, a small correction. We are no longer producing any belt drive turntables. For more than a year now our top of the line table has been direct drive.

With all of the noise about rim vs belt, direct I think that the most important point about the Verus motor is being lost. The reason we are adopting rim and direct drive is that we now have a motor that has dramatically less cogging than anything we have seen before. This allows us to couple the motor more intimately with the platter without the detrimental effects of cogging.

Isolation between the motor and platter (from a belt, idler or whatever) is a very good way to reduce the negative effects of cogging. But as this group knows so well it also causes loss of pace and smearing. An idler setup suffers from cogging effects but to my ears it's a better compromise than the smearing you get from the greatly increased isolation resulting from a belt. But it is a still a compromise.

Because the Verus motor is essentially coggless, we are able to couple the motor as intimately as possible to the platter without introducing degradations from cogging. This is why we created a drop in replacement for the Garrard motor. With the major reduction in cogging and more intimate coupling to the platter the improvement is not subtle. It was rim drive both before and after so there is more to the story than just the drive topology.

I have contemplated creating a drop in replacement for the Lenco. Any interest?

Chris

Can you give us more info on the replacement motor for the Lenco? When you say "drop in"...does it occupy the same dimensions as the original Lenco motor?

A bunch of us have BIG plinths...just wondering how much rework of the plinth will be needed.

Thanks...and cool development!

-Jim

Teres,
I appreciate your help in clearing this up. It's always risky to put info out there without good, clear information.
I applaud Teres for seeking a better way to bring joy to our hobby and way of life.
Please keep us posted on any new developments.
Respectfully, Oregon