Finally found a spinner that beats the lenco!!
A studer 1/4" 2 track with master tape copies!
Of course, I can't find 15ips tapes in the dollar bin! |
My Biggest upgrade yet: the Panasonic Strain Gauge cartridge with a custom made gain stage.
It's a new world. The studer doesn't spin nearly as much tape as it used to.
I'm trying to find a new reengineered idler wheel and bearing. I'd like to start giving the Lenco a bit of attention again.
Cheers! |
Sounds great.Just got back into vinyl.Going to refurb Bogen Lenco b61.Thanks. Joe |
Many thanks to Jean Nantais for this quite cheap tweak,this is not subtle, better bass, better definition,and openness. My lenco begin to sound as a high end table and my pink pt too is on sale now (and before i settle the TJN)
However the quest goes on , i test the achromat mat and it's seem to work quite well (i got it today). So more later. |
Well another belt drive bites the dust, a victim of the mighty lenco idler drive. My sister & brother inlaw decided to get a lenco when they heard my lightly modded original plinth rb300 gl75 up against their lp12 which we had all held in high regard for many years. My lenco bested it by a large margin. Anyway they just received a fine example of a stock gl75 with lenco g800e cartridge. It has a very very quiet motor (better than mine). Just tested it against the lp12 and once again no contest. The linn will be sold to someone who doesn't know any better for a handsome profit compared to the cost of the lenco and the happy new owners will get more enjoyment from their vinyl. Once again Jean thanks for all your efforts in letting the world know about the incredible lenco. It's almost too good to be true but fortunately it is. |
Hi, I asked Jean about the bearing upgrade and he quoted me at $190. |
Also, I am curious about the bearing upgrade that Jean sells for $190, what kinds of sonic improvements could I expect from that?
Hello from France, Michael, i wait for my TJN from J Nantais but have heard nothing about the bearing upgrade.Where have you seen this as i am interested in an upgrade for bearing? |
Re installing Jean's TJN mod kit, I did it by myself in a few hours, and I'm almost 82. A little tricky in spots, but I don't see why you would have any trouble. Good luck, Dave |
Hi all, I am using a stock Lenco L75 with a Rega RB300 tonearm and a Denon DL-103 cartridge thru a Denon AU300 step up transformer. I am blown away by this setup, especially the Denon cartridge with its conical stylus. I have ordered the TJN mod from Jean and I am waiting to get it. Question for anyone, is it that difficult to install?
Also, I am curious about the bearing upgrade that Jean sells for $190, what kinds of sonic improvements could I expect from that?
thanks! Michael |
Lewm,
I installed the bushing so it actually sits higher than the original spring post to try to mimic the slight upward pull of the spring.
Since the bushing is further away than the spring post the bushing sits maybe 3/16-1/4 higher to mimic the same angle of pull.Seems to be the way to go as far as I'm concerned.
OMR |
String Theory. The factory installed idler arm spring pulls the idler arm not only up toward the bottom of the platter but also exerts a force slightly biased toward the spindle side. I guess this is because the idler arm actually describes an arc with a radius equal to the distance from the rim of the idler wheel to the fulcrum of the idler arm. In replacing the spring with string, have you guys mimicked the angle of pull of the spring, or have you (or does Jean's kit) mount the string so that it pulls with a force in parallel to the rim of the idler wheel? Thanks. |
I am still breaking in the Jeremy bearing plus clamp, so any improvement due to the string might be hard to decipher, if I added it at this point. I will do some listening to the Jeremy this weekend and then maybe do the string next week. But I will say that my Lenco already competes with, if not beats, some other expensive stuff I have lying around here, so I can only wonder at the superlatives I read above as regards the string and weight deal. |
I used 42 g - thats about 1.5 OZ. A guy on Lenco Heaven said that he tested the original spring pull at ~35g. My system is sounding amazing with this tweak in place + direct coupling and brass feet.
I was kind of dumbfounded at first - waiting for a downside that hasnt appeared.
Mike |
Forgot you said you used his kit. Thx anyway. I have figured out how to implement the string in the context of the PTP without drilling new holes. So I will (reluctantly) give this a try using small lead or brass weights. Does anyone know how much weight he (or she) used to achieve Nirvana? |
No idea, sorry. Just used the brass weight that was in Jean's kit, and I can't remove it easily now that the TT is back in place. |
Dave, How much weight did you use? Thanks. |
Oh, there's an improvement all right. I'm still getting a handle on it in my own system via several cartridge swaps, after installing the kit a few days ago. Main areas of improvement I've noticed are clarity/openness and dynamics and ESPECIALLY on the reissue 45 RPM jazz classics from Acoustic Sounds and Music Masters. I liken it to getting a new and better phonostage. NOT subtle. |
Correction "pulling are legs" should read "pulling our legs" again my spelling is awful. I even previewed that last post and I missed that. |
I don't think any angels are involved here, but it is possible someone is pulling are legs. I am surprised more people have not tried this yet, so simple to try. Maybe more did but couldn't hear any improvement and don't want to hurt the feelings of the folks who hear an improvement.
I am pretty sure I did hear an improvement but I was drinking the last couple times I played with my Lenco, it seems to sound better that way without any new tweaks. So my comments of hearing any improvements should be taken with a grain of salt, or something like that.
|
That's it!!!
Angels are pulling our legs! |
Trav, Don't you think there might be an "Angel of Pull"? And she has no doubt spoken to Jean. |
Correction "angel" of pull should read "angle" of pull. My spelling is awful. |
I think the reason you can't use that hole is the weight and string won't be clear of the motor. There is a small area that you can be drilled so the string and weight clear the motor. And I think the new angel of pull is good, no problem with that.
The "theories" behind why it works is a more constant pull vs. the spring and we can achieve maximum torgue. It seems 1.5oz is enough but you could experiment with different amounts of weight within that range. Just use enough weight till you get max torque. You can feel with your finger that the platter gets pretty hard to stop when max torque is achieved. All that is thought to give better speed stability and helps the turntable deal with stylus drag. And also some think the "twangy" spring resonates more noise into the platter and or plinth.
I agree you want a smooth surface for the string to slide on so drilling the hole and fitting a rod with smooth top is the way to go.
|
Won't work, Lew. Unless the hole is precisely positioned per Jean's template, the thread will run into stuff and the weight will not have space in which to move up and down. |
Thanks, Trav. I did visit Heaven and did see the photos you mention. It looks kind of crude to me in that the string is passing over two abrasive metal surfaces. I would rather go Jean's way, drill a new hole (as you evidently did do) and line it with some sort of ceramic or brass grommet so the string only passes over the smooth side of a single grommet. That's if I ever get around to trying this mod. I am impressed with the unanimously favorable reviews, but I want to know more about the why of it. That's just me. What about unscrewing the post that holds the end of the spring, and using the hole thus made available for the string to pass thru? That would be simple as simple can be, and it would preserve the factory-determined vector of the force pulling on the idler arm. Unless that hole leads to solid slate on my turntable. |
Hi Lewm,
Yes, I did it but I drilled a hole. A person at lencoheaven.net website did the mod without drilling and you can view pictures of how he did it. I also found the mod to be nice upgrade. Thanks Johnnantais! |
Has anyone here done this mod with Peter Reinders PTP? Or are you all using the stock Lenco chassis as a basis? If done with PTP, did you have to drill a hole to accommodate the string and weight? Thanks.
Jean, in your earliest posts on this mod, you seemed to think that the benefits had a lot to do with eliminating a resonance imparted by the spring, Here you seem more to focus on the benefit of increasing the force that marries the idler wheel to the platter and motor shaft. Have you changed your mind about how the string works to improve the sonics of the table, or am I over-interpreting your last post? |
Thanks Jean for all your efforts in promoting the mighty Lenco. Thanks to you and this thread I got myself a GL75 6 months ago. I love it. I tried your spring tweak and it worked a treat just like you said. I look forward to more of your thoughts in the future. |
Thanks for all the reports everyone - Mike, Barry, John, Terry - and all those who have been trying it out and reporting in on various forums, I appreciate your posting all!! This is better than theorizing in the utter absence of evidence, no?
In fact a version of this very experiment was carried out and reported on by Salvatore in his initial analysis of the weak vs strong spring on his Reference Lenco: the ONLY element changed in his system was the tightness of the spring on his Reference Lenco, which, as he reported, doubled the sound quality in his system. So the ONLY conclusion that could be drawn was that the amount of force applied to marrying the wheel to the motor-platter interface was of EXTREME importance to delivering the motor's torque.
This is the whole point of an experiment: devise an experiment to prove - or disprove - a theory, and accept the results. This is why I went on and on about science and the scientific method in early days: because the then-ubiquitous belt-drivers (much less ubiquitous now :-)) would not accept evidence of the superiority of the idler-wheel drive system or the serious high-end quality of the Lenco. They dismissed any evidence as anecdotal (to those espousing ANY theory all evidence it is wrong is "anecdotal" and all evidence supporting that theory is "proof"), so I devised a way - the original thread - to give them 1000 anecdotal results, "anecdotal" THAT! Ditto the TJN Mod.
As I wrote earlier, the TJN Mod was too important to keep to myself - and too simple, effective and elegant (no complex electro-mechanical solution to this problem will ever match what this little string and weight does with utter reliability and stability for as long as Gravity operates in the Newtonian universe) and most of all IMPORTANT to keep to myself and my own work. Every Lenco owner owes it to himself, or herself, to implement this mod, as it "completes" the heart of the Lenco: its drive system (without it the Lenco is just another record player).
This also proves what I have been saying since the very beginning back when I started the original thread: it is TORQUE which makes the Lenco - and other idler-wheel drives - superior. With the TJN Mod installed torque can be felt to increase, and with an increase in torque - precisely what Salvatore reported in an experiment where the ONLY element changed was spring tightness - comes roughly a doubling of the sound quality.
So, stripping the results of the experiment down to its barest essentials: more torque - and torque stability and so speed stability - equals more information-retrieval, more detail, better separation of instruments, better soundstaging, better low frequencies (lower, tighter, more detailed) better high frequencies (more extended and at the same time more natural with less distortion) better dynamics micro and macro (greater focus, greater speed).
A cautionary note to the usual suspects who tend to equate simply running endlessly in the same direction of a pre-existing already discovered idea with true progress (200-pound platters on the way, I have a lot to say about THIS subject soon with, as always, proof, engineers seem to have forgotten grade-school physics - keep your eyes peeled all): don't start hooking up 200 HP motors to your idlers, as with the spring mod weight - which reaches maximum torque at a surprisingly low weight/mass - so the torque necessary to push the LP through stylus force drag in the better idler-wheel drives (their motors ARE relatively enormous) was accurately calculated by the '50s (and earlier) engineers, they had not forgotten their grade-school physics ;-).
So, getting back to the results of the latest experiment: More torque = clearly better sound, and what better system to deliver this torque than the idler-wheel drive system with their massive motors and decoupled wheels (which makes use of massive motors advisable), which, as Salvatore reported, given Direct Coupling, achieves low noise floors to equal top belt-drives: massive torque without sonic penalties!! Now THOSE were engineers!! If someone came up with the decoupled idler-wheel/massive motor idea NOW - against a background of direct-drives, direct rim-drives and belt-drives - the whole analogue world would be set on its ear, gasp and cry Sheer Genius!!!!
Get Ye out all Ye Lenco users and show the world what an optimized idler-wheel drive system can really do!! Vive la Lenco, Vive la Idler-Wheel!!!! Next time I'll come back (it'll be a while) with yet more fun in the world of science, physics and spinning LPs, maybe that platter mass thingy :-). |
Eleakist,
Us low-lifes "caught up in the usual group exchanges" hear the same thing as you :) As reported.
Mike |
I am posting to describe the result of the most recent idler tension spring mod to my Jean Nantais Lenco Goldring L70. I understand that this mod is described in detail on the group, but wish to present a “fresh eyes” assessment from someone not caught up in the usual group exchanges.
I am running the 100 lb “Classic” plinth, built about 2 years ago and later mod’d with a “Reference” level Lenco main bearing and a carefully rebuild motor assembly. About 2 weeks ago, Jean installed his latest innovation; replacing the idler / speed control shaft tension spring, and mounting a custom fabricated sleeve together with a precisely constructed silk thread and bias weight combination. The theory, as I understood it, was to ensure a constant pressure on the tapered speed control shaft / idler wheel and, thus, eliminate speed fluctuations; as Jean stated it "the maximum useful pressure, constant and unvarying at all speeds, to ensure maximum and stable torque". It simply seemed too obvious to be true – I had to try it myself! I had just heard from two trusted vinyl aficionados that the difference is sound from this latest JN Lenco mod was immediately apparent. I asked no further questions as did not wish my assessment to be biased by their experience.
What I found was a radically improved and stable pitch with an overall greater sense of space and dimension in presentation of the sound stage. There was a certain quality of air and openness around the instruments and vocalists, as well as “room clues” that had not previously been noticeable. This was especially startling as I was listening to LPs that have been in my regular rotation for close to 40 years (Joni Mitchell’s Blue and Ladies of the Canyon as prime examples) and found that my sense of the recording studio environment was far enhanced.
I then went on over the next few days to several well know classical pieces and found similar results with Glenn Gould’s – Goldberg / 32 Variations and Starkers Bach Suites / Solo Cello, and on and on. As I played 6-8 albums each day, I came to realize that each listening session presented a new experience from even my most trusted and best known reference recordings. I began to compare these recording on my other tables and found them lacking. What had I done?
My experience in these matters is considerable. I have had an idler wheel table in my system since 1972. Several years ago I purchased a mint Lenco Goldring L70 in a (rather heavy) stock plinth, after hearing a Lenco L75 rebuilt by Jean Nantais. I was shocked at the results with the L75 and wanted to understand what the JN mods could do for my system. I was then running a Garrard 301 and Garrard 401, as well as a Rek-O-Kut Rondine Deluxe and a Thorens TD124. I could hear the potential in each, but none matched what I heard in the early Nantais mods.
Now, with the latest spring replacement mod, even that first impression has again been elapsed by the addition of a simple thread and weight. I know it seems remarkable and, if reading it, I would have to ask “How is this possible?” My only response can be, “You have to hear it” so I invite each of you look at your options for making such a mod or having Jean provide you with the materials to do so. |
Finally had a chance to listen to the spring mod.
Hey,
First impressions;
Using a 42 gram weight. Greater space between instruments = lower noise floor, VTA adjustments easier to hear. Improved macro dynamics, slightly wider stage, slightly better bass, improved layering.
Mike |
I am about to diy the spring mod. I was going to wait for the all-out "MC" Lenco I have on the drawing board, but after talking to John I decided to try it on my current "MM" Lenco that is on my bench right now. I will be able to compare it to the elastic "spring" I was using.
Pics to follow.
Went to Whalemart :) yesterday to find my fishin' waits and stuff... If everything works out, I will be listenin' later today.
BTW: I have designed a ultra deluxe, shock absorbing version of this mod that we may see later... :0)
Mike |
I have had the TJN Mod installed in my Lenco for a few days now and I just want to add a few comments to support those of johnwdt (John). First, a little of my personal Lenco history might clarify my reaction to the TJN Mod. I bought my Lenco directly from Jean Nantais (JN) about three years ago. This decision was reached after hearing various versions of JN’s Lenco rebuilds in a few different high quality audio systems, most notably those owned by John. I could not ignore the superiorty of the Lenco, particularly in areas of pace, rhythm and timing (PRaT), over my VPI TNT and this is a decision I have never regretted.
My system now consists of the JN rebuilt Lenco to which is mounted a Graham 2.2 tonearm and an Ortofon Jubilee cartridge, feeding into a K&K Phono Stage. Preamp is the cheap but excellent Transcendent Grounded Grid (somewhat modified) and a Rogue Atlas Magnum amplifier. Speakers are the Quad 57s, with bass and treble panels rebuilt by Wayne Picquet, and a single Velodyne F1500 subwoofer.
Since my move to the Lenco a number of significant modifications have been introduced. Most notable of these was JN’s new bearing, which improved virtually all aspects of the Lenco’s performance. Now we have the TJN Mod which, in my considered opinion, is at least as significant as any modification that JN has introduced. Yes, I think the TJN Mod is at least as significant as the new bearing.
JN has explained his reason for introducing the TJN Mod (‘ that damned Lenco idler-wheel spring’) and John has mentioned how, by clipping and shortening the spring (thereby increasing the tension of the spring and torque of the rotating platter), the Lenco’s performance could be improved. It has been evident to me that this spring was the real weak spot in the Lenco design and it is reasonable to conclude that the Lenco’s performance has been degraded by the spring. By completely removing the spring, the TJN Mod simply and elegantly corrects this weakness.
John has mentioned the impact that the TJN Mod has had on the sound quality of his system and I would concur with everything he mentioned. In my system the mod has improved virtually every aspect of the sound – deeper and wider soundstage, improved clarity right across the frequency spectrum and, last but not least, even better dynamics . The degree of improvement has taken me a little by surprise and I’m still trying to come to grips with it. However, as the saying goes, this is a real ‘no brainer’.
If you are considering purchasing the TJN Mod kit from JN but you are not certain of what you will get for your $60, let me assure you that this kit is seriously underpriced. The metal parts (aluminum and brass) have clearly been carefully designed and they are made by the same excellent machinist that is responsible for producing the new Lenco bearing. You’re getting real value for money here and I have no doubt that if one of the major companies (eg. Linn, VPI etc.) were marketing this mod the price would be two or three times as costly.
Terry |
Sorry Dave, I really just wanted to report on the mod itself, assumed most people would be trying it on their own but your right, the little kits Jean has assemble are being sold too, I guess you would have to contact him,
Cheers,
John |
But they still have to pay for the kit itself, right? |
Hi Dave,
I expect 90% of the Lenco owner's on the planet to do it themselves... according to Jean's detailed instructions and photo,
John |
Great report, Johnwdt.
Regards, |
Clarification please, Johnwdt. You say the tweak is FREE. How can that be? |
WARNING....Actual Ear Witness Account!
I have heard the TJN Mod at Jean's place and knew it was a hit...I also have had enough experience with Lencos of all shapes and sizes to know I have had issues with that spring. I have often tested torque by placing my hand at the edge of the platter - and then clipped the spring as a quick fix.
So Jean stopped by today with his drill, template and mod kit to de-spring my Reference Lenco. I will post some photos of the latest system and also of the mod kit in my systems page (I haven't updated that page in quite awhile!) I have been running a Reference Lenco for about 2 months and have been smitten, Fidelity Research FR64S tonearm with a 90th Anniversary SPU. I'm using a Dact Kit Phono Stage with the dual Dact Power Supplies thru an Audible Illusions 3A (with the John Curl Gold Phono board ...although that is not being used at the moment) with Fisher Model 200 Mono Amps (1962...Interstage Transformer...El34s are the Treasure Tubes) and all this plays music out of the Electro-Voice Patrician 800 Speakers - I had been very impressed with the bass from the 30" woofers since the Reference Lenco was installed... and was curious and maybe even a touch skeptical that the Mod would make THAT any better... I was in for a surprise, there wasn't a single sonic area that wasn't improved....detail, imaging, depth, highs, bass...did I miss anything??
We listened to 2 tracks, both tracks we know well and have used a million times. First was Larry Carlton's Alone/But never alone LP, its one of those guilty pleasure LPs but it sounds great and is Fun .. Next up was the 45RPM on Clarity Vinyl of Holly Cole's Temptation (we actually cheated and played the 2nd and 3 rd tracks on side A)
The Reference Sounded amazing..as it has sounded since the day it was installed!
Jean did the Mod on my living room floor in about 20 minutes, using the template to mark the hole, drilling the hole and then removing the motor to allow room for a hand to secure the string tube/lock nut and washer.
Then I fired up the Lenco and the first thing I did was test the torque, Holy Shit! I could tell immediately that the torque was a lot stronger, hard to slow the turning platter, I knew this was going to be good!
The Larry Carlton sounded great from the opening notes, I could tell immediately that my 30" woofers were a lot more controlled, those lowest HZs were a lot more tuneful, bass lines were easier to follow and up thru the midrange... the slam, oh the slam, Its the slam that I love from these Lencos (most Idler wheels!) and that power in the midrange was amazing..It was pretty damn good already but it was now clear that this little string had improved everything! Bass...Midrange but it was the highs I was most impressed with, the Larry Lp has a lot of ear candy, and it was hung out there perfectly..man this is what a Turntable is Supposed to do! OK now onto Holly Cole, this LP can sound pretty darned good, it has some astounding low bass and the Lenco controlled it and resolved it to even greater perfection. I have been struck by the fine details as never before, This whole idea
of being able to hear the subtlest breathing..smacking of lips... like someone is in the room with you, and its almost spooky...
I spent the day playing one LP after the other. Never a single disappointment.
Now, if you are building or owning a Lenco out there, TRY THIS! Its not a hard tweak to Implement (and its free) and I have been reading over on Lenco Heaven some reports from people that have actually tried it and noticed the improved TORQUE!!I think this added speed stability is really audible to these ear PLUS all the Sonic improvements that come with the Torque, try it on your ears. |
Fourth and probably most obvious source of vibration of the idler wheel: Deviation of the idler wheel from perfect round-ness and roughness at its contact surface. The spring or string may or may not be the major player in maintaining contact among drive shaft/idler wheel/platter, as idler wheel bumps along. A knowledgeable friend of mine thinks that the idler wheel is held in place primarily by the platter/drive-shaft "squeezing" effect, as both of those rotate, i.e., the spring or string is pretty much out of the picture once power is applied to the motor. Dunno about that. Still don't see how the spring can do much that is bad, once the platter is turning.
This is not to say that the whole idler wheel, idler arm, and spring set-up could not be improved upon, but I think it would require a radically different approach. Win Tinnon has done that in his Saskia, but he won't say how, and I don't blame him a bit for that. |
I certainly would not want to argue the question of whether this new mod actually improves sound quality, which it may well do, but on the level of theory, I have a question: Why would one expect the string not to transmit vibration, as compared to a spring? Sources of vibration could be (i) the bearing of the idler wheel, (ii) irregularities in the shape of the motor drive shaft, or (iii) dirt or other on the underside of the platter that might cause the idler wheel to bounce a bit. The force applied by a spring to maintain contact between motor shaft/idler wheel/platter will vary according to Hook's Law, which says that F is a linear function of the amount of stretch of the spring. The force applied by the string to do the same would be equal to gravity less any frictional losses where the string touches anything. I don't get why (theoretically) the string would obviously be a better way to do the little bit of work (small force X a very small distance) that is required. I guess you are saying that the spring itself is a source of noise/vibration that mucks things up; yes? |
Jean; Thanks for the tip on how to further improve The Mighty Lenco. As you know, I am already extremely pleased with the Lenco you rebuilt for me and my particular Lenco is just a 75 pounder (i.e. presumably no where near the performance of the massive Lenco Reference). I really did not think you could make further improvements to this design but I was clearly wrong. Well done!
As tempting as it is to jump right in and do the TJN Mod myself, I think I will wait for your kit. It seems to me that $60 is very reasonable (in this hobby, this is a laughably small amount) and the kit will take the hard part (getting the weight right) out of the equation.
Once again: Thanks and well done. |
The pennies are for purposes of the experiment only, I thought this was clear: "After finding the weight you like best, simply hook your weight (which can be glued-together pennies, or a bolt and nuts or or or…" and "To those who want a finished kit-form TJN Mod, with threaded insert for secure bolting to the Lenco chassis with rounded lip which raises the string to the level of the arm (so pulling at a perfect 90-degree lateral angle at X-gram force) and which extends to below the motor so there is no fouling of the string/weight possible, machined brass weight with hole,..."
I am NOT pitching this kit to make money, at this price it's barely worth my while to go to the post office, it's only intended as a public service to help SERIOUSLY improve the Lenco sonics around the globe to, as I wrote, cause more Lenco fireworks/importune the competition, be it DD, belt or other idler, and again I say: heh-heh :-). I encourage those who want to roll up their sleeves and have some fun to do so, I mean really. Of course the kit will be standard in all my models, this is too fundamental and important.
Nevertheless, unless you intend on pushing it or operating it in a high wind, it will not start to swing in any physically-meaningful way. A related issue is finding the precise mass which will exert the most pressure, and so be the most difficult to move, without straying over into so much you start to wear out the wheel and cause various mechanical problems: anyone who has tried to substitute for the original, let's remember VERY delicate spring, with a stiffer one knows this simply doesn't work.
No physical system on the face of this planet is perfect, including the TJN Mod, but the EXTREMELY simple weight on a string substitution is SO much superior to the spring (and I'm talking not only mechanically but also sonically) - and, it will be found due to its extreme simplicity and effectiveness superior to any other solution - it is astonishing that in the seven years since this whole thing started, no one has thought of it. And I believe no one has because as a rule, people are far too impressed by the unnecessarily difficult, the unnecessarily complex (for this reason it's a large component in many audio manufacturers' marketing), and have forgotten about simple results, simply achieved. Effectively, it was so obvious and simple it was invisible.
This spring issue, as demonstrated to and witnessed by Salvatore (a virtual doubling of sound quality) is much more FUNDAMENTAL to the operation of the Lenco than any plinth and so on questions, which FOLLOW, not lead (i.e. it is the fundamental Lenco engineering - powerful FAST motor, flywheel-platter, idler-wheel - which makes it great, without this, the best plinths in the world & etc. applied to a belt-drive will only result in another so-so belt-drive).
So getting back to it: silicone baths and what-not are not necessary, do you see anti-bias weights on far more sensitive tonearms (in terms of importance/sensitivity to vibrations etc.) bathing in silicone fluid? Let's stick with my leading principle since forever, the KISS principle, the reason the Lenco itself is so great: Keep It Simple, Stupid. Not intended as an insult, but simply a good motto, especially in engineering.
I won't give out the precise weight/force I found optimal due to the reasons given - and already I can see all sorts of unnecessary side issues will end up dominating and eclipse the beauty of this simple solution - anyway self-respecting DIYers should embrace this chance at a fun experiment and DIYelves :-)!!
So let's get back to it: the TJN Mod is a weight on a string (KISS), and that string does not transmit vibrations, contract or expand, simple, effective, forever, and the weight, being a simple weight, will always hang with the same mass/force, steadily, since gravity does not vary on the surface of this planet, and string is not a spring. Those who implement it will have a GREAT improvement, those who don't won't.
So have fun y'all, I'll be leaving now and won't be back for quite a while, as a customer of mine always says, Roger & Out. |
Nice mod Jean. The only thought I had was that if for some reason the 'bag' of pennies starts to swing it could affect speed stability - possibly use a more solid weight and suspend it in something to 'damp' it e.g. silicone fluid? |
So Jean, you're not going to give us the weight? You could at least give us a hint, like calling it the "39 cent" mod, or something like that, in line with the original "cheap" ethos of the original thread. |
Hi,
I'm responding to a BAT SIGNAL. Did anybody see an awesome tweak posted anywhere around here?
Mike |
Oops, for the photo of the experiment so you can visualize/understand, just click on my "system" under my name. |
WHAT I DID WITH STRING, SARAN WRAP AND PENNIES
I was sitting at home during an extreme cold snap (similar to today’s extreme cold snap which is why I’m writing this :-)) which made it impossible for me to work in my workshop, and so I decided, FINALLY, to address the issue of that damned Lenco idler-wheel spring. Pay attention now y’all as I’m about to provide the Keys to Paradise, a MAJOR upgrade to the Lenco’s sound and overall performance regardless of implementation/flavour, to all Lenco aficionados, DIYers and client/buyers alike. The “competition”, already living in fear of the Lenco, will have the bar raised - overall performance - quite a bit further, heh-heh.
So let me tell you about the TJN Mod (named pithily in remembrance of the fab Twl Mod for the Rega tonearms which was popular back at the start of the original Home Despot thread) which you can either fabricate/cobble yourselves extremely cheaply (as I’ll explain in some detail), or simply order entire as a kit later (dependent on availability/time). It’s been at the back of my mind for years, but since the Lenco is so amazing I never got around to actually testing it out, thank the cold spell.
As I’ve written since the beginning in the Long Ago and Far Away (i.e. since my first attempt to start the Idler-Wheel Revolution), the reason the Lenco is such a sonically-amazing record player is not Magic Lenco Fairy Dust as some seem to want to believe, but simple engineering: torque from the combination of a powerful motor married to an amazing flywheel-platter via a delicate idler wheel and the resulting speed stability, a great resistance to the braking action of the stylus in the groove, friction, otherwise known as Stylus Force Drag.
BUT, this whole scenario depends on that damned little spring (the motor too, but that’s not at issue here). Now, I’ve rebuilt some 100+ Lencos (and others) over the years (remember I rebuilt quite a few in a variety of ways/styles/materials before ever starting the A’gon Home Despot thread) and very often any problems which come up are due to that damned little spring. Usually the issue is a tired spring, meaning it has lost its force and so the Lenco’s overall torque is severely compromised and, as demonstrated to and verified by Salvatore, leads to a serious loss of detail, SLAM, PRaT, dynamics, and so on (even imaging!). It can also lead to serious “wobbling” at higher speeds, like 45 rpm, where the wheel simply doesn’t engage reliably.
The fix to this was to snip off a few loops of the spring to make it tighter, but one had to be careful, because if the spring was shortened too much then all sorts of weird noises and grindings and bindings would occur: the force of the spring needed was pretty exact: not enough, and a serious loss of performance, too much and various problems. Add in to this that it is very likely, after all these years, that ALL Lencos are performing sub-par due to tired springs (unless NOS).
Furthermore, looking at how the spring operates on the Lenco, it is evident that, even given a spring which has all its original force intact, that it draws the idler-wheel arm closer to the motor shaft the higher the speed chosen. Which means that the higher the speed, the shorter the spring. Which means that the spring is not drawing with as much force at 45 rpm as it does at 33 rpm. Which means that the performance/sound, given “perfect” spring force at 33, will be lesser at 45 rpm than at 33 rpm. And this is assuming that the exact amount of force needed for 33 rpm actually exists.
Finally, let’s admit that the spring is a spring, which means that it is spring-Y. This means that, being a spring, it is always springing, i.e. stretching and contracting. Can you see where this is heading? It is behaving exactly like those rubber belts in belt-drives (which consequently many now replace with thread etc.) I started attacking back in the beginning, meaning that the performance, regardless of an optimized spring, is always, to a certain extent, as verified by Salvatore, being compromised. Now it is obvious that the Lenco spring DID work as the Lenco’s speed stability relative to pretty well everything else is clearly audible in transient speed, bass power, reach and detail, dynamics macro and micro, detail period, etc. Which is why the Lenco, essentially unknown, unrecognized and reviled only 6-7 years ago, now stands high along with the Garrards, EMTs, and top belt-drives of today.
So you can see why I think of it as That Damned Little Spring. Especially given the heights to which I’ve brought the Lenco, which made that Damned Little Spring all the more galling, since my end results depended so much on it, a major weakness and so problem (i.e. in almost every case – not all - a problem with the Lenco can be traced to That Damned Little Spring).
But what if we could ensure optimal performance of the Lenco, all the time, at every speed, with utter stability and dependability, forever!!??!!
So, up opened the Mighty TJN R&D Laboratory. I took out scissors, Saran Wrap, pennies (being in Canada, Canadian pennies) string, and a drill bit. The intent was to measure the force of the spring, which I measured in grams. I needed a cradle which had no weight, hence the Saran Wrap (this message brought to you by Saran Wrap TM :-)!!!) and string. Doing some research, I discovered that all Canadian pennies minted between the year 2000 and today weigh in at 2.35 grams. So, I cut a square of Saran Wrap (doubled for strength), poked a hole at each of the four corners, knotted string at each to form a weightless cradle, and suspended it from the spring. I started to pile in the year 2000+ Canadian pennies until I reached an amount which seemed not to drag on it too much, but enough to cause it to stretch comfortably. I counted the pennies, then multiplied the amount by 2.35 grams. Ta-Da, a precise amount, double-checked via a postal scale.
I then drilled a hole in the Lenco, beyond the motor in the same general direction as That Damned Little Spring post but in a place where it would not interfere with motor or plinth, and inserted one of the brass, rounded inserts which originally held the on-off switch, to ensure the string was not catching on any edges to give me a false reading. I then ran the string through the brass insert and, cutting off the spring so that only one loop remained (so no springing), hooked the string to the loop/idler-wheel arm so that it was tied to the idler-wheel arm, the other end hanging below the motor. The Lenco itself was sitting high above the floor on stilts so I could have access to the cradle (see photo of the experiment under my “System” page).
I piled the pennies in and turned the Lenco on. BAM the platter started up, and the silence was astonishing. That Damned Little Spring makes noise too; The Glorious Little String does not :-). I checked the torque by hand as I always did when optimizing That Damned Little Spring and the torque was amazing. I added pennies and subtracted them to test torque at various pressures, even pulling on the string/cradle to add pounds of force weight to see if I could increase torque/speed stability. The end result of all this was that after a surprisingly small amount of weight/pressure/force, there is no increase in torque. Not enough and there is a very definite decrease in torque. Too much and not only is there no increase in torque, but there will be undue wear on the wheel and strain on the motor.
If there’s something I’ve learned in my years of participating in and reading internet forums, it’s that for every idea/result someone will rise up to say Nay, and someone else will rise up to Defend, regardless of the worth or not of the idea. So, I’m not going to give anyone a hook to attack and criticize my results by publishing the optimum weight I’ve arrived at, as I know from experience someone wanting attention will say “It is not enough, I’ve come up with better weight” and someone else will rise up and say “It is too much, I’ve come up with a better weight.” Then armed camps will rise up and the X-weighters will oppose the Y-weighters, and the thing will go the way these things always do, in an increasing fracturing of the Brotherhood I had naively in mind when I started on A’gon (I gave up on that idea as, evidently, impractical nonsense).
So I’ll give pointers now on design of a cheap DIY TJN Mod, and leave you all to it. To those who want a finished kit-form TJN Mod, with threaded insert for secure bolting to the Lenco chassis with rounded lip which raises the string to the level of the arm (so pulling at a perfect 90-degree lateral angle at X-gram force) and which extends to below the motor so there is no fouling of the string/weight possible, machined brass weight with hole, measures string with hooks at both ends and template so you find the exact position on your chassis, contact me, I haven’t yet decided on a price, but it will be about $60. For those who will inevitably rise up and scream WHAT, so expensive???!?? I remind you I don’t use 13-year old children in sweat shops in Asia, but a locally-based European machinist who has made reality my exacting and precise and practical and simple design, using real and pricey metals, then there’s my own time an materials.
So here’s the instructions to the TJN Mod, look at my photo too. I had first contemplated plastic fishing line for the thread due to its low friction, but decided that plastic, being hard, would transmit vibrations, and given the extreme silence and “mushiness” of simple string, decided on cotton thread on the same principle (I rejected polyester thread based on this same principle). Find the spot on your Lenco which doesn’t interfere with your motor or scrape against the inner platter. I used the brass insert which comes with the original Lenco on-off switch due to its rounded/smooth edges, it’s a 5/16th inch hole, so small and easy to drill (I use this same diameter for my kit for this same reason), but you can use something along the same idea somewhere else, have a blast. Cut the spring to the last loop so that there is no longer any springing, it’s convenient and easier than stringing directly to the idler-wheel arm, it only has to pull with a certain force expressed in grams which, being a weight subject to gravity, it will do with Supreme and Eternal Reliability (WARNING: do NOT take the Lenco into outer space and expect the same results). I use fish hooks at both ends which I snip so that there is no risk of blood spilled, After finding the weight you like best, simply hook your weight (which can be glued-together pennies, or a bolt and nuts or or or…, just be sure it’s not scraping your plinth or motor) from the other end.
Even if certain of you don’t agree, for whatever reason (as is almost certain to occur) that the TJN Mod is a sonic improvement, be aware of the other issue, that being that That Damned Little Spring will be gone, to be replaced with something which will NEVER wear out or get loose or tired and will ALWAYS work with exactly the same force you’ve determined is ideal at every speed, FOREVER. Now THAT’s peace of mind :-).
In MY current set-up, which is, for the moment, a Koetsu Black mounted to a Triplanar mounted to my Reference Lenco with spring already optimized (prior to the TJN Mod), I noticed the following things: first of all, the utter silence of the mechanism itself, which now always works. Sonically, previous to the TJN Mod, I had found this set-up a tad on the polite side, both the Triplanar and the Koetsu being on the more polite/rolled-off-highs side of things compared with other tonearms and cartridges. But, after the mod, suddenly the Triplanar/Koetsu combo sounded much more incisive, with even quicker transients and more extended and aggressive – in a GOOD way (more defined and forceful) – high frequencies. The bass gained in power and detail in the bass is amazing (it was already excellent via the Triplanar/Koetsu combo). PRaT/timing has become much more exciting still (already very good), an album which I had worn out in terms of interest – Kraftwerk’s Electric Café which I had indeed played previously on this combo (one of my test records) – became once again rivetting with much more SLAM and excitement, in fact it was SO good that for the first time in years I had to sit entranced through the whole album. Finally, and since the Triplanar/Koetsu combo is relatively recent I can’t be sure, but while listening I realized that there seemed to be no surface noise from LPs I knew were noisy: I suddenly sat up and thought “Where the heck did the surface noise go??!!” Did it disappear the moment I set up the Triplanar/Koetsu, or did the TJN Mod do it? Further testing and results ahead.
Needless to say, all my Lenco reconstructions will from now on include the TJN Mod. Those who want a nice kit ready to go with all issues already addressed contact me via my website at www.idler-wheel-drive.com.
All those who have had various Shootouts and have come to certain conclusions prepare to seriously revise upwards!! Enjoy the Mod all!!!! And for the Gupper: Vive la Lenco, Vive la Idler-Wheel!!!! |
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