And Peter, good to "see" you again, happy to see you're still enjoying the Mighty Lencos :-)!!
For an update on my system these days, I last reported I had acquired a pair of Klipsch Heresy's which totally blew me away and conquered me, and in a new development I have matched them to a tube amp, an Audio Innovations Series 800 MKIII, an EL34-based push-pull 25-watt Class A amp, which is monstrous power for the ultra-sensitive Klipsch, as I spend my days and nights diving for the volume control (due as well to the monstrous dynamics of idler-wheel drives, now Unchained)!!
Now the AI is not exotica, or classic vintage/legend, or even subversive/fun like the Dynaco ST-120, the Worst Amplifier in the World (which, come to think of it, I'll try with the Klipsch, as due to its stiff regulated power supply it has very fine control of detail and minutiae, should be fun ;-)), but, it IS musical, it does detail, it does bass, and I am very happy. It plays such beautiful music. Which is to say, a properly-balanced system will be superior to a system built up of legends and exotica. The fellow who came over yesterday, who has a very high-end system, also admitted it did not sound as good as mine. But, he will soon have a Lenco and I predict it will then become superior to mine in all kinds of ways, as I know and admire the individual components, Wyetech tube electronics (superb) and Coincident Victory speakers, which should be an excellent match.
Hey Dave, those Yamahas ARE good aren't they?!? A total surprise when I first hooked up my 625s in my system by a series of accidents, which I had bought strictly to test old electronics. Actually, I'm thinking they would sound superb with my tube amp!!
Anyway, have fun mixing and matching guys and girl(s ;-)). The Dynaco is actually sounding excellent with the Heresy's in the background, very smooth and detailed, had a feeling this match would work (and fun to challenge people's perceptions/prejudices), more later!! |
Jean, EL34 PP or class A = one of the best stereo setups there is for music lovers. Like PP6550, it does more right than most amp setups. Only audiophilia, oneupsmanship or the need for more power drives one to seek more. If you ever get a chance to hear Art Audio's EL34 amp you are in for a surprise. It has been on the market for long enough now that one might seek it used.
Mike |
Has anyone ever used Jean's massy-plinth philosophy with a quality direct-drive table like a Technics SP10 or one of the big-daddy Kenwoods? I'd be interested to know how the best of DD fares against the idlers in a similar plinth.
Reason I ask is my Lenco was well-worn when I received it and has developed several problems that are not expensive on their own to fix (needs re-tread, etc.) but together form a lot of variables that can rear their ugly heads at any given moment. I also restore my own tube equipment so between the Lenco and some fussy Dynaco gear it seems every time I sit down for a listen some crackle or short or buzz comes into play and I spend my time fooling with that. My goal is to be able to listen for a week straight without a pair of needlenose pliers or soldering iron in hand.
I was thinking a quality DD table might not be as high-maintenance as my worn specimen of an idler and if properly plinthed might reap some of the same benefits. |
My Lenco is finished! All I can say to anyone contemplating this project is, "Just do it!" and "Run, don't walk!"
It's taken me about two weeks of obsessive tweakage, burn-in of tonearm wire, etc., but the results are absolutely glorious. Frankly, I have to say that what I am listening to right now is, without a doubt, the best music playback system I've ever heard. And this is with a $300 cartridge and a $600 tonearm. The complete cost of this record player stands at under $1,500. That includes cartridge, arm, a $150 fee for renting shop space for a month, $200 for the used Lenco and under $200 for supplies including some tools I had to buy.
My Lenco has just replaced a very highly regarded belt drive table that I've had for 18 years and has been very well upgraded and tweaked.
And not to conflate two different threads, but anyone who says that digital currently beats vinyl in any kind of sonic way either has not heard excellent vinyl playback or they have tin ears. Sorry, but it's the way I see it. I have what was Naim's top of the line CD player just a year and a half ago, and while it sounds very GOOD, it does NOT sound NATURAL, like what I'm listening to right now. Granted, I have not heard the new top-of the-line Naim player, which some have said sounds analogue. But then again, the vinyl playback system that they're using as their reference is probably a belt-driven LP12.
Uh-oh....Am I becoming an "idler snob"? |
Hey Billybuck depending on the quality of the rubber on your idler wheel sometimes a very light sanding with a fine grade sandpaper helps in addition to replacing the steel spring for the idler wheel with a rubber band. You can vary the tension on the idler wheel and this can sometimes solve the problem. |
Nice Post Turboglo. And having the courage to pursue this at all costs. Any chance of posting some of this in a "System" thread so that we can take a gander?
- Mario |
Mario, what do you mean by a "system thread?" |
Hi Turboglo,
Here at AudiogoN they've got special "forum" called virtual systems. It allows you to upload pictures and descriptions of various components in your audio system. Once you complete the start-up of "My System", the little blue link that appears after your user name will have "System" added to "(Threads|Answers)".
- Mario |
billybuck jean has done some sp10 comparisons, doubtless he will fill you in. its definately worth persevering with your lenco, you've been quite unfortunate so far as generally the simplicity and build quality of the lenco means few problems ever!
My system needs updating with new stuff and new lenco pics as most was sold for me house. still, you'll get to see pics of my twee little (by usa standards) new lounge.
Turboglo it is seriously exciting to have it up and running and sounding so good. would be interesting to hear what arm etc you're using with your lenco.
Jean, i've been hankering after some klipsches ever since i found the klipsch forums a few years ago. I've actually delayed posting about the yamaha ns-615's because they're so cheap on epay still i didnt want to increase demand. then i suddenly relised i've already got a pair! EER! They even make cds sound decent, which is a novel experience for me.
got my eye on a weird tube amp at the moment. more if i end up purchasing the little blighter
|
Okay Mario. I gone and done it. (Sorry...Listening to EmmyLou Harris) |
Hi Mike, yes indeedy the AI 800 MKIII has an easy musicality, liveliness and fluidity which complements the Klipsch very well, sounding very smooth, AND produces some quite serious bass! It has a Beauty which reminds me of the Ortofon M15E Super, redolent of red wine and fires in the hearth in winter. I'll be making this set-up my mainstay for quite a while.
Hi Billybuck, I had reported a while back one of my audio buddies up here sold his 80-pound Technics SP10MKII, saying he no longer felt anything for it. Even before the Lenco reached its Giant phase, he would invite me over to hear just how much superior the 40-pound Lenco was to his Technics. I also owned and rebuilt an SP10 MKII to find out if it too could Crush belt-drives as easily as the Lenco, and if it were indeed a threat to the Idler Supremacy. It wasn't and I sold it. And Lencos have defeated EMT DDs, the best ever built. But if you think about it, the DDs are MORE complex, not simpler, as they require complex circuitry in order to work, and once these go - and they always do go - the 'table is toast, though one or two experts may exist in the world who can repair them.
The Lencos are in fact about the simplest and most reliable 'tables out there, far simpler mechanically than the Garrards, and so repairable by the amateur, and the wheels apparently last forever, provided they are the metal ones. However, you seem to have found one of the very few lemons ever reported, so don't let that one bad experience colour your views of the Lenco. If a Lenco is in good shape when it is first bought (and they almost always are), and has the metal wheel, then after proper restoration it will perform dependably for decades more. A friend of mine got the first one I ever rebuilt after my return to Canada (the Oak Lenco under my "system"), and six years on he still uses it without problem, needing only a dusting once in all that time to continue to play perfectly: his wife uses it frequently. I am now retrofitting the various mods/improvements (except mass of course) to it. I would advise you to abandon the Lenco you have, find a good one, and apply all you've learned to it. Once finished, the wheel will never need replacing (unlike a belt or thread), the motor will run for decades, and even the "ON" switch, which consists of a silver barbell and a spring, will last forever. The plinth, of course, doesn't wear out or go out of adjustment either.
Welcome to the ranks of the Lenco Initiates Glenn!! If everyone had had a quality idler instead of a crappy belt-drive (and by this I don't necessarily mean ALL belt-drives are crappy - though in the context of idlers....;-) - but the cheap ones were and are execrable) when CD made its first appearance, digital would have been laughed off the world stage and would today be analyzed as one of the greatest PR (and technological) failures of ALL Time!! One [apparently small and meaningless] Evil (the collusion between press and industry to lionize the cheaper-to-manufacture belt-drive) gives birth to others. Now we have MP3, the concept of "Quality" is fading from Western consciousness, it is Fast Food everything. Good thing even without exposure to the concept of Quality (and integrity, and ethics) some seem to have an innate knowledge of these things. Anyway, the lessons aren't done yet: it takes quite a while to absorb all the lessons of the Mighty Lenco. Your sensitivity to PRaT will increase, along with gestalt and harmony (which high-end belt-drivers and worse, the Digital crowd, claim to understand, like dessicated 90-year-old scholars discussing the concept of Sex...these definitely need the lessons Idlers can teach them), and all the musical secrets which lie engraved in those licorice pizzas will slowly be dragged out into the light to amaze, delight and enlighten you for decades to come!! Vive la Lenco, Vive la Idler Wheel!!!
Hi David, the Yamahas, along with the AR2ax's, are two of the speakers which have given me the largest dose of the Kundalini Effect, when mated to the Sony 3130F, though I do hear it peep through various combinations I have tried. However, with a big idler behind various items of equipment, I hear all kinds of flavours of Beauty and Excitement, keep us posted as to the strange Tube Beastie you might get next. |
Hey Jean,
I have some ? about your RS-A1, because I might be selling mine.
Does yours have a slight ground-hum-problem, when you turn the volume up and touch the metal parts?
I think I removed a little grounding-cable that was attached to a screw at the bottom of the armbase.
I did it because the whole arm was actually resting on the head of that little screw! Not stable. Does yours stand on that head too?
BTW: I live only a few miles away from the guy who constructed your Audio Innovations amp. :-)
I believe he likes that particular model. |
Hey Ronnie, small world!! I know I am loving the sound of this amp more and more, due as well to some 'table/tonearm/cartridge rolling I was doing yesterday. I'd love it if you contacted him and got me some more info/opinions on this amp!! But, to get to the RS for now. My own RS-A1 has no ground scheme whatsoever that I can see, so no screw/stability problem. With my Denon DL-103"E" there is no hum whatsoever in spite of this, but with my moving-iron AKG P8ES there was indeed some hum. But a caveat: the RS-A1 is in the back corner, so the headshell travels directly over the motor, I don't know if there would be any hum in the other position.
Did I ever mention that I find the Rega RB-300 to be one of the Greatest Bargains in Audio History ;-)?!? Yesterday I had fun playing tonearm/cartridge swappies on my two 'tables (B75 Bogen-Lenco and Garrard 301 grease-bearing), and having recently acquired a new Rega RB-300 to replace the old one (which I traded mounted on my old Ode to the Denon for equipment a while back), I re-wired it with my usual recipe of Cardas internal wiring and Music Boys (I LOVE this recipe!!). Anyway, I had constructed a special armboard for this tonearm for the Garrard 301, and mounted the Ortofon Jubilee to it. What sound greeted my ears!! For years I used the Kiseki Blue on the RB-300 on my Lenco, and then my Kiseki Purpleheart, and never did the Rega let me down, sounding powerful, incredibly detailed and blindingly dynamic, and yet "honest", in the sense of tonally correct and with dynamics in their proper proportion (like the more-expensive JMW tonearms).
Again yesterday it freshly blew me away with Ortofon's current statement MC. Never have I heard Marianne Faithful's brilliant Broken English LP sound so perfect, so mesmerizing, so amazing, as if it were the product of careful and expensive recording, transference and vinyl!! But nope, just a garden-variety commercial LP available for a few bucks used. Didn't know it was THAT good sonically, run to the nearest store and get yourselves copies! Also never have I heard this LP on a Giant plinth, or with a cartridge of this stature. I heartily recommend the Rega for ALL idler-wheel drives (including, of course, the Garrards), there is definitely a synergy between it and idlers, almost as if, like the Koetsus, the Regas were designed on idlers :-). As I've written before, once I'm done playing with all these other tonearms, I'll likely end up with solely a Rega.
And speaking of incredible bargoons, a fellow audiophile was here yesterday, and clearly heard the supremacy of the Denon DL-103 at PRaT, timing, it being the only cartridge so far to generate the full power of the Kundalini Effect (which is not to say that there aren't perhaps some others out there that can achieve this). Mounted on the RS-A1, it has detail to rival the best, and a lack of hardness due to the RS-A1's swivelling headshell, which pretty well eliminates tracing error. The Denon DL-103 should be dissected and examined to see what makes it tick, and the lessons applied to all new MC designs, but no, it's too cheap, and so is not taken as seriously as it should be, it being assumed the more expensive materials of more expensive cartridges will address all issues (wrong). Of course, there are all sorts of flavours of Greatness, from the Grados' supreme gestalt, through the Ortofon's supreme evenness and balance (combining a large portion of the Denon's energy and PRaT with state of the art tonal perfection and detail), and so on, it's a complicated and fascinating old world, glad I have multiple 'tables and tonearms!! Vive la Vinyl Fun!! |
I did a little research and am not so sure this guy made the mkIII version. Perhaps the mark I. Anyway, if you'd like to ask him something about Audio Innovations you can try contacting member "Erik Andersson" on this forum: http://www.hififorum.nu/forum/default.aspDon't know if I explained so well.. that screw (if your RS-A1 has one) is on the underside of the arm base, and is only an internal connection between arm "pillar" and base I think. Not for connecting an external ground wire to the phono stage. |
Hi Ronnie, no, there is no little screw interfering with the flush-mounting of my RS-A1, it is affixed flush using two-way tape with no problem on my arm-board. Perhaps they took care of that in their later models. Oh well on the AI 800 count, nevertheless, it is sounding glorious!! As it should, given it is being driven by idler-wheel drives :-). Now I'll play with the Lenco/Morch/Decca!! |
Ol' Jean has moved uptown with his tonearms. I'm impressed - perhaps one day we will all have an address at the Tony Arms. Get it, huh, huh??? :0)
Well, I finally got my L59 set up in the new room and once again I am struck at how not-real cee dee counds in comparison - and Ray Price was sounding mighty fine on CD. Threw on the first record I laid eyes on, Miles / Nefertiti and was blown away with the natural timbres and timing.
In a related story, I am setting up my Garrard 401 and once again am confronted with the (slightly) bent eddy brake disk. It is enough to make the plinth vibrate so you can feel it through your finger tips. If anybody knows where to get a replacement or has other advise, please respond. At this point, I am going to dismantle and try to finesse it back into shape with my fine adjustment tool (hammer).
Mike |
If I've got rust in the motor should I just bail out now? I started cleaning up an L75 I bought through an ebay auction and I wasn't too happy to see rust and corrosion spots underneath. When I opened the motor up there was rust inside and rust where the plug wires connect. It spins fine but I'd just like to know if this is a really bad sign. |
On the 401 the eddy current disc should run true to avoid generating vibration, because the braking magnet is only on one side of the disc. The 301 magnetic brake is a horse-shoe shaped affair with the magnetic force transferred from the magnet itself via the two "legs" of the horseshoe, which "straddle" the eddy current disc so that if the disc wobbles a little, the effect is minimized: as the disc moves toward one "leg" it moves away from the other and vibration cancels out.
Good luck with straightening the disc on your 401. Very occasionally someone will "part-out" a 401 and sell the parts on E***. |
Hi Leisual: if the Lenco is working fine, then buy some rust solvent and clean the Lenco up and go through with it. The cleaning up part will be more work, bt in the end it will be stellar. Apparently tea is an excellent rust solvent: TEA. Hi Mike, the disc MUST be utterly flat or it's not worth the effort (too much vibration/noise). The other option is a variac with which you can adjust the voltage/speed and remove the offending disc completely. Do as Gene suggests and wait for a spare on ePay, as a variac will reduce torque, and Torque is Sacred. |
Crem, take it as an attack if you are that defensive. YOU seemed to be saying that folks at NASA were testing the efficacy of steam cleaning vinyl records. No? If they were doing this as part of a taxpayer funded activity, I consider it a waste of money. If you are just talking about people who happen to work at NASA who are doing some sort of home testing, I'd only ask, so what? That's all. |
A typical 401 runs fast without the magnetic brake, so if you remove it, you need to reduce the turntable's speed. Other than a variac which reduces torque and motor RPM (and thus motor inertia) another way to alter the speed downward so it's accurate is to CAREFULLY turn down the step on the motor pulley. You can do this with a small metalworking file as the motor and pulley spin, checking frequently to see how the speed is being affected. I'd stop when you reach around 0.3% fast. Do all this when the motor is fully warmed up; it will run slow at first when you turn it on cold (probably still within 1%) but will speed back up as it warms up.
Since the motor will be spinning at close to 1800 rpm as you work on it, the end result will be perfectly concentric.
I'd recommend buying a replacement pulley from one of the vendors on E*** selling new ones, grinding it down, and keeping your original in a safe place. |
Thanks for the replies guys.
Ebay it is - maybe I'll try Loricraft too. GP49 - this is a replacement pulley - I have the parts for Imbabi's power supply but never built it because I was bummed out by the shipping damage described. DHL has not been very nice to me.
Yes Jean, I read the opinions where the disk is considered necessary to get the full Garrard PRAT.
Leisual, be careful about getting solvent on the motor windings - if you melt the insulation the coil will probably short.
Mike |
Has anyone tried to use plaster as a material in their plynth construction? I imagine it should be a pretty dead material, but I was wondering about over-damping? So here is what I want to try - build a hollow plynth using alternate layers of maple a MDF, then fill as much of the inside as possible with plaster and burlap (to give streng to the plaster. Ideas? if I cover the bottom of the deck with a plastic bag and sink it in, then after the plaster hardens, I can remove whatever material necessary to allow for movement of the mechanism underneath the deck. |
Participants in this forum may be interested in an article by Garrard chief engineer E. W. Mortimer, in the July 1967 issue of Component Technology magazine, a technical publication of the Plessey Group, which owned Garrard at the time.
Go to:
http://home.earthlink.net/~transcrubbers/id18.html |
Apologies, my post above obviously was intended for another thread. |
I'm using an AT1005II with my lenco - but I'm missing the bias weight - Does anyone know how much it weighs? Could a lenco bias weight work? Or an SME 3009 Weight? Thanks. |
Hi Ghougary, I don't think plaster is overdamping, it being fairly neutral and non-absorptive. Give it a go! As to the bias weight, biasing is not an exact science, as the force actually changes as the needle travels across the LP, there is no absolute value. So I think the Lenco weight would be perfect, actually close to the size/mass of the original, which is quite small. Been really busy these days, but will be back with yet more Idler Impressions later ;-).
Had been away from home the last few days, and played Pink Floyd's The Wall, and while I was drinking pop from the bottle (bad me), I almost swallowed the bottle when the Lenco Dynamics came suddenly slamming out from a quiet introduction!! Forgot just how SLAMMING the Mighty Lenco/Idler was!! The words are "speed stability", true, in-practice, actually-playing-a-record, Speed Stability. There goes the one musical advantage digital has over vinyl! Back later for more ;-). |
Hey Guy's,
I'm new to the idler thread, but have had my Garrard 301 for a good while now... still loving it too! I have a couple of questions I wonder if any of you have experience with.....
I have a strobe platter and original oil bearing. I have noticed lately that my bearing seems to be making some noise. I fully cleaned and lubed it when I bought the table and built it up and it looked really good. No scoring or anything (almost looked new). I am using a 30 weight oil in it..... Any thoughts??
Also my platter rings when I tap it. I have a Herbies mat on it which helps everything out (a super upgrade to the original). I am thinking about trying to get a friend with a wood lathe turn me one out of wood..... Kind of like the Teres. Anyone ever tried this?
I am even contemplating the Shindo platter bearing system, but it's incredibly pricey.
Thanks for any input
Chris |
Hi Johnnantais,
I have my L78 apart, and to give myself some real "kick in the pants" motivation, am in the process of selling my 1987 LP-12. Of course I will construct a big,bad massive plinth from mdf/birch ply.
I would really like to use the Denon-103 MC and the Rega RB250/RB300 combo.What model of MC and arm or tweek would you suggest for a 1,000 Cdn budget? In your vast listening experience would it be sonically more beneficial to cut away that top right-hand part of the deck for a maple tonearm board or carefully cut a properly positioned hole in the deck?
As always, thank-you for starting this thread and sharing your experiences with us.
Igor |
Hi Chris, from your description it sounds almost impossible the noise is coming from your bearing. Remove the idler wheel and simply spin the platter to see if there is any noise, make sure it is not coming from the idler-wheel. If it is indeed coming from the main bearing, then take it apart again, polish both the spindle and bushings with some sort of powdered metal cleaner, and then re-lube once it has been thoroughly dried. I use Mobil 1 10W30 for extra-quiet operation.
Hi Igor, in fact those who follow my writings know the Rega RB-300/Denon DL-103 is one of my favourite combos! So for roughly a grand I would buy the RB-300, spring for an Incognito kit, a Kerry Audio counterweight, and buy either a 103 or 103R, or a 103 and have it re-tipped by Soundsmith. The OC9 is also an excellent match to the RB-300, it has less SLAM/ PRaT than the Denon, but still quite good in this respect, and more delicacy/detail. As for the Lenco, given the acreage of the Giant Direct Coupled plinth, I no longer cut the corner off, I simply rotate the Lenco 90 degrees clockwise and build an armboard next to it which will accommodate short and long tonearms. Check out the later photos under my "system" for an idea.
And now for the promised diatribe on speed stability: yesterday the fellow came over who is waiting for a Lenco so he can kick out his Wilson Benesch Circle. He has much more invested in his digital rig than he does in his vinyl rig, and yet what did he remark on above all others things in listening to the Lenco? You got it, speed stability. As I wrote up above, the ONLY musical advantage (I did not say "convenience" or "silence", neither of which are musically-important) digital has over turntables is speed stability. This, it turns out, is due to the use of belts (and overly-complex DD circuitry, which still must combat the nefarious and serious Stylus Force Drag, or SFD), which of the three systems is least suited to combat SFD. And of the three systems only one was specifically designed to combat SFD, and that's the idler (political correctness and wishy-washy ersatz "wisdom" notwithstanding). Because when the idler-wheel system was first designed the stylii tracked at 10 grams and more, which required some serious muscle to counteract. Later on, when listening, it is evident that of the three systems the idler-wheel is STILL the best of them, as is evident when simply listening to them (properly set-up, of course).
So, all of those razor-sharp transients, that incredible PRaT and gestalt, that amazing bass SLAM and power and depth, the incredible detail, the astounding imaging and retrieval of the acoustic space, the naturalness, is due, indeed, to simple speed stability. The Giant plinth does act to quieten down the noise to astonishingly low levels, but it also serves to nail down the workings to increase even more that astounding speed stability. And the more stable the speed, the more all of the above attributes increase. And the way to improve the speed ability even more is to increase the mass of the plinth, and to direct couple it. In fact, I believe that much of the reported speed instabilities of the Garrards in particular (and the Thorens TD-124s) is due to the habit of isolating them from the plinth via rubber suspension/grommets/gaskets, which being springs, allow the 'tables so mounted to rotate, just like a Linn on its three unstable springs.
So, night after night up here I sit astounded, listening to my Lenco, after decades of use. How many 'tables can give such satisfaction over the years (and so reliably and painlessly with minimal upkeep), and not only satisfaction but constant amazement, excitement and power?
So, for all you digitophiles out there who claim to love music, imagine what would happen if the LP could match the CD (or DVD, or whatever else they are cooking up) for speed stability? Imagine what would happen if all the LPs' advantage in naturalness was accompanied by the transient speed and clarity of digital, but without the reconstruction by computer of the original waveform? You don't have to imagine, you only have to listen to a properly set-up idler-wheel drive, and hear the best of both worlds, which will never be achieved via computer chip. Get ye out and hear a Lenco or Garrard (or other large quality idler), Direct Coupled to a Giant CLD plinth!!! And all your dreams of musical reproduction in the home will be realized, aaahhhh, sweet satisfaction at last :-). |
Has anyone filled in the center-top of the platter aside from the mumetal mod? On my first deck, I glued down the platter mat with contact cement. Then I realized there is a potentially resonant space in between the platter mat and the platter. Does this matter? Does it matter with the sloppy big alluminum disc in the middle of an L75 Platter Mat? |
"Has anyone filled in the center-top of the platter aside from the mumetal mod?"
Yes, I have. In fact, I have very seriously modified the top of the platter with great success. It did require modifying the spindle itself, however.
-mosin |
I glued a 10mm hard acrylic platter,specially cut leftover Rega platter on.Brings the VTA up to spec as well.Beat that! |
Hello again,
Mine is Delrin plate, but my entire approach to the project was different in that I scrapped most of the Lenco, and designed in the potential to scrap all of it. My view is that the one superior feature of the Lenco is the fact that the idler wheel rides on the underside of the platter, rather than the rim. This opens a myriad of possibilities, including the replacement of the entire platter itself. Also, Lenco's implementation takes stress off the bearing assembly, and opens it to endless possibilities, as well. That one feature is worth the price of admission. The stock motor, etc., are ancillary, and trivial by comparison.
It is the fundamental idea of how the idler engages the platter that makes the Lenco different. In many other respects, it is inferior to some others, but they don't measure up when it comes to the engagement idea. What a point of departure it is for one who is willing to swim in uncharted waters!
-mosin |
Mounted new RB300 w/ Denon 103R. Need advise, please.
Did some tweaking with new armboards. New armboard is approx. 2-3mm below top plate. ***Where is yours?
I played an LP
1. seems fast. Timed it and it is about 33rpms in 56 seconds. However, on this table (Lenco 75/S) the slowest adjustment is 33 and I cannot slow it down. Other table goes down to 16 allowing for adjustment.
2. in the middle of the LP, the stylus skipped, not advancing. I lifted and advanced, the stylus would not drop onto grooves. Could be my armboard is too high (thick)*** I placed another mat on top of the first and LP played all the way through. However, #1 and 3 still a problem.
3. Lots of sibilance, i.e. thick and smothered sounding "s" sounds. Could this be related to new Creek phono stage not broken in. Or cart adjustment?
Digital scale reads 1.6 g tracking force.
Not sure about VTA and cart alignment, just eyeballed.
Any ideas?
Thanks from Oreegunn |
Problem # 2 may be that your lift mechanism is interfering with the tonearm. Check to see if the flat part that supports your arm is not bent upward. I am not sure if this is the case for number 1 but the notches that set the speeds i.e the 33 45 78 and 16 on mine can be shifted slightly by loosening the screws that hold them in place.
Harry |
Hi Michael, if you can't adjust the speed properly at the brackets, then you need to go further into the machine and adjust at the joint which shifts the idler-wheel assembly. This is the circular bit with two screws which pivots around a nut and bolt arrangement: loosen the screws, and move the idler sled backward or forward (with the two screws sliding and changing position on the two arcs) until you get a good range of + or -33 1/3 with the bracket in the middle, then tighten again.
As to the tonearm, does sound like an arm-lift problem as Harry said. Even though the Denon is burning in, and probably the phono stage too, it shouldn't sound so bad. Remember: the tonearm should be parallel to the record with the stylus in the groove. Once this is done, then use the nifty dynamic VTF arrangement on the Rega to increase mass to suit the low-compliance Denon: shift the counterweight as far back as is conmfortable on the end-stub, and then use the spring to achieve 2.5 grams tracking force. Can't do that with an RB-250! I LOVE those RB-300s, especially with MCs (here they stand up to the best, their biggest problem being they're too cheap, and too ubiquitous). However, with Grados I do believe the RB-250 sounds better, but will know more in the future. |
09-06-06: Fishwinker
I've got the speed sorted now (thanks 4yanx) - I'd connected the speed lever control to the idler control arm at a very different point on the slide plate to that which it had originally been fixed. Obvious really - feel rather foolish now!
Still can't get rid of the vibration (it's not a bent cone/rotor as far as I can see), but it seems to have reduced slightly over the last couple of days. Maybe it'll bed itself in and sort itself out, but I'm not sure. Hi Fishwinker, What is vibrating? The motor, or the idler itself? -mosin |
Hi Mosin,
It was the motor itself vibrating. I tried everything to sort it out, right down to re-centring the coils, but I just could not nail it. Gave up in the end, and got myself another motor which I was able to make a LOT quieter.
Philip |
Has anyone tried a power conditioner with adjustable voltage (something like a PS Audio Powerplant) to lower incoming line voltage? I read somewhere that this was a very effective addition; lowering voltage = lower motor noise+ better timing stability...... THis seems like basically the same thing as the Loricraft PSU. Incedentally, I cannot get a response from Loricraft regarding their products... even with repeated atempts.
Thanks
Chris
PS another thought; has anyone ever experiment with a wooden platters? |
Yes I use a power conditioned Variac into a Lenco.Firstly I have a power conditioning box that the preamps and turntable plug into.Before the turntable I have the Variac which is set for 220v the rating of the Lenco motor and the Variac goes into the power conditioning unit,turntable into the Variac.I haven't made direct comparisons because it is too clumsy to change around all the time but it seems to be fine. |
Anybody try aftermarket powercords on their Lenco's ?? I'm having Jean build me a Giant Plinth Lenco and am thinking about having him install an IEC to try various P.C.s. Would like to hear from people who have ACTUALLY TRIED AFTERMARKET POWERCORDS ON THEIR LENCOS. The theoretical arguments are interesting, but non-conclusive. |
Just a reminder to budding DIYers and the curious, though it's true that a Lenco can be brought to unimaginable (and as-yet unmeasured) heights by going to various extremes, let's not forget that the success of the original thread was due to the Mighty Lenco's amazing sound quality, even in humble - or even NO - plinth. AND no tweaks or even lubrication!! In the beginnings of the original thread, though we laboured to build various [what at the time we thought] heavy CLD plinths, in imitation of the Garrard plinths the Japanese were then building, one fellow, owner of a fully-tricked-out Linn LP12/Koetsu set-up, posted his experiences with Lenco with no plinth at all, with Rega tonearm in original hole, with all the geometric and VTA inaccuracies this entailed:
"This evening is the first chance I have had to play with the beastie. I found (it took me a little while) the Origin Live modified Rega 250 that I bought two years ago intending to mount on an Empire 208 if I ever found one. I didn't. I also found my little used Denon 103D. An hour later we were ready to go. No plinth. I precariously balanced the Goldring on two lead shot filled plywood boxes that I made ages ago to set a pair of Carver Amazing speakers on. The speakers are long gone, but the heavy little boxes thankfully remain. Albert I don't know what TT you had before the Goldring, but my expectations were certainly not high since I have a heavily modified Linn LP 12 with an Ittok arm and Koetsu Black cartridge. I have to say that the Goldring with the lesser cartridge (the Denon 103D at $225, while a very impressive cartridge is no match for the $1,500 Koetsu), unravelled the music and separated instruments better than the Linn with the Koetsu. At first I thought that was hearing over-simplification of passages, but when I started hearing things in the foreground that were either distant on the Linn or very subdued, I knew this was not the case. Separation of lead and backing vocals and clear enunciation of words seemed better on the Goldring. I think I have to switch the Ittok and Koetsu to the Goldring to be completely fair. But then I think that there would be an even greater bias towards the Goldring."
"I continue to be impressed by this TT - even without a plinth - which I know will improve everything. It's subtle for the most part and reveals everything with a very light touch, never screaming "look at all this detail". But when there are massive dynamic swings it is scary. For the ultimate test of just how scary, play "No Pasaran" from Joe Jackson's 1987 LP "Will Power". It will make you leap out of your pants. Also even in it's plinthless state it sails through those classic 'test' tracks like "Sad Old Red" by Simply Red and "Ride Across The River" by Dire Straits - both tough tests of the ability of a system to reproduce bass that stops and starts on a dime with no overhang."
"I am a long time Linnie. I have own LP 12's for 28 years. My current Linn has an Origin Live DC motor and a Cetech carbon fibre subchassis. On a whim I bought a GL 75 and put an Origin Live modded Rega 250 and my beloved Koetsu Black on it. Holy shit, better bass, much better leading-edge dynamics and pretty remarkable imaging. This is all without a plinth. I'm just resting this beast on two lead-filled boxes. I am about to make a decent plinth and see where it goes."
"I STILL haven't built a plinth for my GL 75, OL Rega, Koetsu Black. But I'm playing it all the time. And I get more impressed with every LP. I should mention that I went from thin, model train oil to Mobil 1 grease and then a combination of the last two. My last choice seems to be the best. When I eventually get around to building the plinth it will be on this site. Just listened to Dire Straits' "Brothers In Arms" and Little Feat "The Last Record Album". I'm hearing things that were not there AT ALL on the Linn. Buggeration. Is that possible?"
Now over the duration of the original thread I emphasized fun, and posted my own shoddy plinths for all to see - which are still up there and viewable (after all its' about sound quality and musical magic, not ultimate aesthetics), I have done nothing I am ashamed of and much I am proud of, including the Canadian Rustic ;-)! - so everyone from the totally inept and inexperienced to the better-trained would be encouraged to join in and see what all the fuss was about. I asked the more talented among us to continue to encourage the neophyte and untalented, and downplay their own efforts, as I knew that if I did not strive to prevent it, it would become a pissing contest, and the thread would die, and instead of the joy it should have brought, bring instead ugliness and pettiness.
So, now the original thread is dead and this but its "baby", let's not forget the fun component, and please do not believe the various forms of poison being spread about on this topic, a phenomenon which is inevitable considering the success (with its concomitant envy and other base and destructive human feelings) of the original thread and its intent, to have both the Lencos and idler-wheel drives in general recognized as serious, viable high-end 'tables.
The Lenco is indeed Mighty with nothing but a Rega tonearm unceremoniously plopped into the original hole, sitting on bricks, and mounted with your cartridge of choice. It is not true that it will cost you a "bundle" to achieve true high-end performance, it is not true that you need endless talent, materials and time (though it will improve performance) to achieve this. What IS true, is that with the purchase of a Lenco, some bricks, some solvents, cleaners and lubricants (Mobil 1 products), and some damping material, and a humble tonearm at a couple of hundred bucks, you can achieve sound quality that in audiophile terms can duke it out with $5K turntables, and which in musical terms (i.e. PRaT, gestalt, harmony) cannot, I think be outmatched by anything, at any price, and all this, STILL, for roughly $500 total or, depending on your luck, less.
So let's remember all, that though, indeed, I DO believe the idler-wheel system is the best of all systems, and continue my activities in proving this point/wait for the evident evidence to be absorbed, that ALL efforts should be encouraged and welcomed, and that those neophytes out there should not look at the tremendous aesthetic and complex efforts being made out there and be cowed, and should instead meditate on the Case of the Fully-Tricked-Out Linn LP12 owner. Don't get carried away with the thought that you will get the One Ultimate Turntable of all Time, as evidently even those who rebuild Lencos achieve varying degrees of success, and likely at some future point some new thing will come along to seriously boost its performance: things are not static. So do what is in your power to do, whether it be four bricks or complex woodwork, and be at peace: the Lenco will NOT disappoint, regardless. Have fun, and be proud of your bricks ferchrissakes (sorry, M.)!!!
And those sitting on the sidelines: what have you got to lose?!? The original thread was heading towards 4000 posts and had lasted nigh-on three years, not because the Lenco was mediocre or questionable, but because it was unbelievably good. And Ay, There's The Rub. The Lenco is so literally unbelievably good, that all who read accounts of it believe it MUST be a case of hyperbole and exaggeration, and so dismiss it, despite 3,700 posts before it was deleted (the longest thread in audio history at the time the delete button was hit), and 3 years of success, and more, counting this new spin-off. So, take the hint, start using your heads, and get ye out and buy a Lenco, and achieve what you are seeking at a budget price. What have you got to lose? And more to the point, what might you gain?!? While Garrard-ers on other forums gaze longingly and with awe upon the Impressive and Legendary EMTs, Lencos are out there, in largely original trim but for massive plinths, casually and with no sweat outperforming them. Who knows, like me, you might find yourselves developing some woodworking skills! Though, to confess I DO miss the days when I had fun with creative and crazy designs (as a substitute to tools and talent) and spray-paint from Canadian Tire, sigh, and fun and sound quality (i.e. MUSICALITY and not audiophile detail) counted, and not aesthetics. Think I'll go re-set-up my Canadian Rustic, I'll NEVER let it go ;-). |
This is so true about the stock Lenco’s ability to engrave its bold presence in our listening rooms. So much so, that early on in the original thread there were quite a few reports of procrastination because of it. Many of these Lenco pioneers were so smitten with the stock “iron fist in velvet glove” treatment to music retrieval, that some plinth builds languished for awhile. It was as if Ulysses Nantais had neglected to cover the ears of his crew to these seductive sirens songs. There were grumblings among the men - “Can it really get any better than this?”
Well, of course, time went on - plinth builds proceeded and the answer to those early grumblings was a resounding, “yes!”
My confession for today is that while I promptly sank a Lenco L-75 into a mass, constrained plinth - complete with direct coupling and two tonearms, I have another Lenco – a BP L-61 - that has been on stilts for nearly two years in my basement workshop system. It was sent to me as a trash unit for parts. I cleaned & lubed all the proscribed workings: Took an unruly, noisy motor and made it quiet: Got a wonderful the idler tire rebuild for $25: Reaffixed a broken idler arm anchor to the speed adjustment sled.
The tonearm was replaced with a Sonus Formula IV unipivot that was a perfect fit for the Bogen/Presto placed armhole. The Sonus, a longer tube version of the Mayware, sports a Shure V15Vxmr (of which the replacement styli buy-up and hording seems complete and criminal). A modest Marantz 2230 receiver drives a pair of Rectilinear speakers of unknown model designation. The music all this produces is so enthralling, that it seems vastly out-of-place for my humble basement.
There are plinth plans for this L-61. The marble for the outer shell that will envelope a traditional mdf/birch-ply sandwich, has already been dimensionally cut. Large, internal borings and epoxy fills to the inside of the 7/8” marble shell will be my attempt to break up any potential resonance from the marble.
Those are the plans anyway - which continue to languish amidst the siren songs of this stilted Lenco.
- Mario |
It is playing!
The first Lenco with custom made laser cut topplate.
Pictueres are at page 4 of:
http://www.lenco-lovers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=414
First impression is that it is seriously good. I have invited mr. Kundalini to come and have a listen ;-) |
She's a beauty Peter, and I REALLY love that green!! Knowing how subtle and all I am ;-). Also love to see that familiar-homey birch-ply/MDF layering, so dependable. Beautiful accurate work as always, you should have been a watch-maker..or are you? Can't wait to get my own top-plate. Please contact me about your motor mounts too, I'd love to get some for my own project. Still waiting for my own top-plates, perhaps they're in Iceland, visiting, for the moment, bringing Good Lenco Vibes :-).
Ah and my good friend Mr. Kundalini: though there are flashes with the Audio Innovations/Klipsch combo, I have only heard the full brunt of the effect (which is to say, going beyond mere raising of hairs on arms and neck, caused by musical timing perfection, to full-fledge shivers up and down the spine, observable in others too), so far, with the Sony 3130F/AR2ax combo, and to a slightly lesser extent the Sony with other speakers too. Something about that Sony...
I want to re-set-up the Sony/AR system, but the combination of tubes and Klipsch Heresy MKIs is sooo beautiful in other ways I'm finding it hard to force myself to dismantle it. Gotta have several sound-rooms!
The other necessity for the full brunt of the Kundalini Effect - so far (there must be other combos, and the Ortofon Jubilee actually makes a very good stab at it, and of course the Decca) - is the humble Denon DL-103, which like the Sony, is seriously vintage, and yet, like the Sony, gets the timing and gestalt aspects of the music, with the necessary drive behind it, soooo incredibly best-in-the-world right. So, today, having been sent an Ikeda tonearm to test out by a Lenco afficionado, I will indeed take apart my beloved AI/Klipsch pairing, re-set-up my Sony/AR2ax pairing, and test out the Ikeda with the Denon, for which it is supposed to be an amazing match, to see if it too can pull off the Kundalini Effect. For those interested in the Ikeda, the Fidelity Research tonearms were designed and built by the same man, and are available, of course, at a lower price. The owner of the Ikeda has the right attitude re. the Kundalini Effect: open-minded and in a spirit of fun and enthusiasm, joie-de-vivre, grain of salt, but still valuing what I am talking about here: the intense and distilled musical experience, which in a sense transcends mere sound to yank directly on our DNA.
And needless to say, the Prime Ingredient for the Kundalini Effect is an idler-wheel drive! So, yes, I have to say it, despite the best efforts of a few who need to learn about having a good time, to kill the party and the fun (while profiting by it): Vive la Idler-Wheel!!!
And on the Lenco Front, some big news cooking perhaps this summer, as I continue to send the Giant Direct Coupled Glass-Reinforced Lencos (and Garrards) out to be inserted into ultra-high-end systems to amaze and delight, and to make the point: just how incredibly effective the Lenco is, in largely original trim (with its potential largely realized by judicious tuning and optimizing...and by the proven tonally-neutral and dynamically stupendous and balanced birch-ply/MDF recipe), with no need of anything but attention to detail and an inert mass. We don't yet know what its upper limits are, and isn't it exciting to attempt to find out what they are?!? And let's all hum the Mantra: "If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad;
if it measures bad and sounds good, you have measured the wrong thing."
And finally, speaking of having fun, I insert a photo under my "system" demonstrating why a Giant Lenco is a Giant Lenco, everything being relative, and "Giant" being a perfectly adequate and accurate word, not to mention evoking the intent/effect much more effectively than "Reasonably Large Lenco" or "Larger-Than-Average Lenco", which would have people both yawning and wondering what was meant. A photo, taken long ago, of a Giant Lenco with Rega tonearm sitting next to a Rega P3 record player, with Rega tonearm. Enjoy your Giant Lencos ;-). |
Peter,
In one word- FABULOUS!!!
You have taken the Lenco to another planet, where green creatures roam in song.
Thanks to you and Jean for setting us vinyl lovers to seek out other, better worlds for our listening pleasure.
Oregon |
At long last....my Lenco is singing again! Its taken me nearly a year to get the energy together to do this, but I've now got a Rega 350 arm mounted on a lovely piece of purpleheart. Not sure why, but I didnt ever feel confident with my Decca International arm-I was never sure that I'd got it set up correctly. Downside is that the Goldring cartridge I bought for the Rega arm somehow seems to have lost its stylus, so Ive had to mount the crappy Ortofon one from my old Dual deck on it at the moment until I can find my other cartridge thats lurking around somewhere. There are times when I wish I was more organised and didnt lose things But still...I'm lying on my bed listening to the vinyl Ive not had chance to hear for over a year....bliss!!! Managed to aquire some Jah Wobble on vinyl a few months ago-that man is a real maestro-I feel like a teenager again! |
Sorry-me again...All I can say is......wow!!!!!!!! I'd forgotten how the lenco takes music to another dimension...am totally blown away, just as I was the first time I heard Gilbodavid's Lenco over two years ago. The music is ALIVE...my room is throbbing with the beat...makes the CD player Ive been listening to for the past year seem one dimensional. Its got Va va voom....Vive la Lenco!!! |
Oops...sorry...meant Rega 300 arm, not 350. Was getting carried away!! |
