Just by way of brief introduction, I am currently working on a Lenco project with the generous assistance of "Oregon."
I wanted to throw in what I believe is an interesting little bit of background. When I was in high school, a good friend of mine had an awesome hi-fi. It was my first exposure to good music reproduction. We would partake in the sacrament (the sale of which financed the purchase of the hi-fi) and listen to music for hours and hours.
In college I started on my pursuit of quality sound reproduction. But, alas, no matter how much money I have spent (and I've spent a LOT of money over the years) I have not experienced the depth of emotional connection to the music that I experienced back in high school. For years I have attributed that to the naive inexperienced ear of my youth. But now I think I understand. His turntable was a Dual 1229, an idler wheel design.
So many thousands of dollars later, and twenty years of digital jitters, and my stoned high school buddy's little system with an idler wheel up front would probably still best mine in terms of sheer musicality. I feel like I should be able to sue somebody!
By the way, does anybody have any experience with the Dual 1229? There's one for sale on e-bay and I'm thinking of buying it. |
Has anybody ran into a hum once the arm is on the record? I have two arms and the Rega (Audio Note) arm with AN IQ3 cart causes a hum whenever its over the turntable. I believe I have seen some references to it here, but am wondering what you do? Are there certain arms, carts that do not work well with the Lenco/Garrards? |
Hi Turboglo, great story! This type of anecdote is the most common sent to me, though mostly fond memories of fathers' systems backed by an idler-wheel of course, and like you speaking of the musical POWER of those old systems (and the consequent failure to recapture that power). Like you, most heard the diminution, but trusting the press reports and industry advertising, they dismissed it as an explainable aberration (though the explanation was never forthcoming, the claim being NO sacrifice was made) and moved on (with that nagging little voice at the back of their minds that something was STILL missing). Hilarious and somewhat serious: "I feel like I should be able to sue somebody!"
I suspect many have been reading my claims and reports like these over the last few years and though it strikes a chord within them, they don't want to believe it, having invested too much money backing the wrong horse (a painful admission).
Now, though I'm certain everyone understands this, I do want to caution those watching from the outside that a restored/tweaked/replinthed record changer, though it will have that PRaT, SLAM, bass and musical POWER, will not match a properly redone and set-up Lenco, Garrard or other heavy and well-built idler-wheel drive. But it WILL teach a Great lesson, and will embarrass many highly-regarded belt-drives. More on the fun side, a record-changer, properly re-done, sounds great but more than that, it allows one to give the finger to hair-shirt audiophile existence, and watch the record player turn itself off, and even allows us to stack records and relax!! Now to some this is anathema, but it IS fun!! I don't believe records are SO easily damaged, that if they are clear of dust, the cushioning of air as it falls absorbs/kills the impact, and the absence of dust ensures nothing is ground in. Or one could simply be happy that the one record ends, and the player turns itself off, like a CD player.
So, if the Dual sounds like fun and offers the occasional holiday from audiophile obsessions (while satisfying the desire for MUSIC), then why not bid on it? Elacs are every bit as good, and cheaper to boot, but they are not the Dual you enjoyed so much years ago ;-). |
I've finished and tested the lovely Elac Miracord 40A record-changer record player, and the sound was quite simply stunning: incredible dynamics, PRaT, bass, very good detail, losing out only on subtleties like imaging when compared with my reference decks. Even a record-changer will easily humble some quite pricey belt-drives, especially in the traditional areas of SLAM, bass and PRaT! I restored it carefully, giving it the Full Treatment, disassembly, cleaning and re-lubing of all bearings including the motor, cleaning and silencing the idler-wheel, packing the ball-race main bearing with new grease to damp down noise. Quite quiet too (Dynamat and getting rid of the suspension would reduce noise some more).
Those who want to sample what I'm talking about have no excuse: you can buy one of these Elacs cheaply and restore it with a minimum of fuss (the Elac mechanism is much simpler and sturdier than the competition's). I also replaced the original tonearm cable with something better but not stellar: a leftover Rega tonearm cable from an RB-300. With a serious cartridge (I mounted a Shure M91ED) this thing will make belt-drive owners go into shock, just like my Garrard SP-25 years ago (but the Elac is better). Wanna kick the ass of a deck like a Rega or a Project for a fraction of the price? Get a record-changer and have some fun!
Moving on up the ladder, my rebuild of a Garrard 301 is giving the Platine Verdier a serious ass-whuppin', and is also ass-whuppin somethin' else, to be reported on later. Let's just say for now the complex low-mass approach is not vindicated, but the simple high-mass appraoch is. Science is about results, not complexity for the sake of complexity, or cost for the sake of cost.
Hi Tsatalia, different cartridges have different sensitivities to hum, as do tonearms (I've found that several re-wires of Rega tonearms stupidly disconnect the grounding of the tonearm-tube itself), wires, and phono stages (some pick up and amplify hum much more than others). Make sure the Garrard or Lenco is grounded, in the case of the Garrard the motor. If a Lenco (or Garrard), then mumetal works as per Mario's recipe.
I'll be back later, perhaps, to talk about the connection between Sasquatches and audio :-)!! But here's a tidbit for the Idler-Wheel War: “All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.” Arthur Schopenhauer |
Hey moderator.
My post from 1/15 was on topic - we discuss vintage phono amps here.
Post my message.
Mike |
Tsatalia, I experience that hum, and after testing the possible causes, mine is caused by the electro-magnetic field the motor emits. Like Johnnatais mentioned, Mario has found a solution that is in this thread.
(For those of you I owe mumetal sheets to, every weekend I plan to do this, and somehow it hasn't gotten done. My apologies. Maybe this weekend....) |
Whatever. My post was about my Fisher 500C - which I got up and running using the Sheldon Stokes power supply mod. I thought some of the tubes were dead but they all tested good. It sounds surprisingly good in a nostalgic kind of way - think of a really great sounding juke box you may have heard once. Looks cool too.
Its own dedicated Lenco to come.
Mike |
So the vintage Dual arrived today. Unfortunately, it was not in the "Mint" condition that was advertised. But I did manage to get it set up with my Van Den Hul moving coil cartridge. All I can say is, wow! (and not in the "wow and flutter" sense either). Even before I was able to tweak it, in several areas it sounded better than my Well-Tempered. The midrange was beautiful, smooth, detailed, musical. Highs were just a bit thin and it lacked quality bass, but I find it amazing that a machine that cost me under $300 could sound that good.
Man, I cannot wait until I get my Lenco up and running!
Unfortunately, I had a mishap and broke the stylus off my cartridge. (This has not been a great day.) Does anyone know the best way to get a stylus for a Van Den Hul replaced short of sending it to Europe? |
Hmmm Mike, perhaps your Fisher, like the Lenco and the idler-wheels it represents, represents a Threat to the High End ;-)!! I have to say I just had one of the most intense musical experiences of my life, AGAIN, thanks to both the Garrard and the Lenco. I've gone back to the KEF Reference 103.2's, these speakers produce impossible SPLs for their small size, unbelievable detail and astounding dynamics micro and macro! They deserve every bit of the quasi-religious underground awe they generate. Of course, it helps to have Giant Idler-Wheel Drives which mercilessly crush high-end belt-drive after increasingly high-end belt-drives. AND DDs.
Hi Turboglo, this just goes to show why the idler and the Lenco were overlooked for so long: assuming all the judgments/character assassination were done and warranted, no one even bothered to take these old machines/technology seriously and test them in a good system. This goes as well for various vintage/"passé" speakers (AR2ax's, etc.), amps (vintage Sony, recently having matched and in some ways bested a Classé Audio DR-8) and so on. No one ever mounted a serious tonearm on a Lenco (except a very few who reported and were shouted down as I reported in the early days of Da Thread) to see if it rated (as they were doing the Garrards), and definitely no one was mounting a serious cartridge on record changers such as the Duals and Garrards and Elacs to see just how good those were!! Sorry to hear about your cartridge mishap, try Sound-smith in the 'States, they have a good reputation. Anyway, part of the Secret of the Idlers is to pay attention to all bearings, once you restore/clean those and relube the Dual, and clean the ilder-wheel, it will jump some more in quality!! Have fun, good as these are, they do not match either the Lencos or the big Garrards, the increase in speed stability and everything is palpable and obvious. My own Elac was so good it had me worried and running to do a serious comparison, but once the comparison was done it was clearly audible. But STILL, a record-changer can be a very serious machine, and as you found out even these can still be superior in many ways to high-end belt-drives!! It's the drive system of course.
And speaking of Threats, while Lencos I have sent out Crush belt-drives (and DDs) of higher and higher pedigree, so does the Garrard. The Garrard continues to mercilessly pummel the poor little Platine AND, according to reports, the latest State of the Art DDs. More on this as things develop.
As I've written many times, DD motors, which are their platter spindles, revolve very slowly, either 45 RPM or 33 1/3 RPM, since it is indeed Direct Drive. This means any motor/revolution/speed imperfections (and ALL physical systems are imperfect) are VASTLY amplified as compared with even belt-drives (150-300 RPM typically) and of course, idler-wheel drives (1500-1800 RPMs). Now, DD manufacturers always make much of the impressive and advanced devices they use to control the platter speed, using either a quartz reference, or some sort of servo-control/computerized system (better as it is not as audible), such as that used by Grand Prix, which checks the speed 5000 times a second! Thing is, DDs NEED this type of control, it is a WEAKNESS, not a strength to be Trumpeted to overawe. Don't get fooled by technology: a good idler-wheel drive CRUSHES digital media (VERY high-tech), for instance, when properly set-up, as will become more and more recognized with time, never fear. The Idler is Coming to Get You too, DD, not just the poor, put-upon Belt-Drive ;-). Why? Because the idler uses a pure analogue mechanical system to achieve smooth and unstoppable speed stability, pure momentum, pure inertia, pure torque and power; not computer sampling and rectification, which again is necessary due to WEAKNESS (i.e. slow revolution of imperfect motor), not a plus because it is a strength.
Once again, with FEELING: "Due to the high rotational speed of these motors, great relative mass and so high torque, no expensive solutions need be made to address the weak motors now used in high-end decks. The platters weigh about 8-10 pounds, with much of the mass concentrated on the periphery: the old boys understood flywheel effect to ensure stable speed. The platter is machined and hand-balanced in a lab. Even the motor is hand-balanced in a lab, and weighs something like 3-4 pounds, and runs silently on its lubricated bearings. Think of it: a high-torque motor spinning at well over 1500 RPMs (compared to a belt-drive motor's average 150-300) which pretty well wipes out speed variations by itself. The idler wheel contacts the motor spindle directly, while contacting the platter directly on its other side, thus transmitting most/all of that torque without any belt stretching. Many high-end decks offer thread belts which don't stretch, thus giving an improvement in sound. But the platter is also a flywheel, and so evens out whatever speed variations there may be in the motor. It's a closed system (motor-platter, platter-motor) and speed variations brought on by groove modulations don't stand a chance in this rig, and it is clearly audible."
So, despite current DDs generating the most impressive speed stability figures ever achieved, idler-wheel drives still have better de facto speed stability in action, when actually playing a record. This increased speed stability (even over a measured/claimed 0.002%) translates into: better and more impactful transients, more SLAM and HEFT, better dynamics micro and macro, more PRaT, better bass, better gestalt, etc. Not only does it translate into these things, these things are the proof the speed stability is better in practice!!
Now something I was not aware of when I sent out the Giant Garrard, was the fellow already had a Garrard set up, in Cain & Cain plinth. He did not find it impressive next to his Platine Verdier (which truly is a work of engineering art), and really did not expect much from my particular high-mass approach, (though he was excited and interested evidently or he would not have proceeded). Of course, if you extrapolate, you know what happened: the high-mass birch-ply/MDF plinth massacred the hardwood low-mass two-tier Cain & Cain, in spite of the separate tonearm-board, of the hardwood and all the clever and more complex design features. Again, it is results which matter, not complexity for the sake of complexity!! The massive birch-ply/MDF plinth is simple, it is CLD, it is neutral, it is HEAVY, it absorbs noise, it is economically-feasible, it is EFFECTIVE. As with the Lenco all on its own, trust your senses, suspect your poisoned brain of prejudices (which includes a love of complexity).
The Lencos and Garrards are out there conquering, and this will continue. I have nothing against the two other systems (I've experimented with BDs, and am still experimenting with DDs), to me this is simply a discussion (which I won't let die out, a least for now or until I get bored), backed by experiments and evidence (which I continue to both collect AND generate), of which of the three systems is superior. The idler IS - I believe - the best of the three systems, and so far the evidence AND logic support me. And now for the Garrard/Lenco/Idler Marching Song, aimed at BDs and DDs, sing along now: DOOM doom doom doom; DOOM doom doom doom....:-). Vive la Lenco, Vive la Garrard, Vive la Idler-Wheel!!! |
Yes, Jean its a threat to me! How do you cope when a $47 thrift store rig is more musically enjoyable than your all out assault audiophile system? The speakers are Dynaco A-35's bought by my older brother sometime in the early seventies. I my possesion for about 15 years. Can you believe that Dynaco speakers are going for ~$500 on ebay?!!
Given, my super system can do some fantastic things but the speakers are just not there - final mods this week. Even perfected, it will be a completely different gestalt.
Presently considering a 4 arm Lenco :)
Mike |
Wondering if anyone can offer some advice. It seems that I have a European model Lenco 75 that I've been working with. The motor has these red jumper wires. Is there anything I can do to make this motor compatible with US mains or am I out of luck? It seems to work when I plug it in, but am I causing any kind of damage? Apologies for my electronics ignorance. |
Switching the voltage can be done, but you will have trouble reaching 33.3 because the tapered shaft that the idler wheel runs on is a different taper for 60hz vs 50hz. See the motor threads and the old "Building high-end 'tables cheap at Home Despot" thread at the Lenco lovers forum.
Mike |
Hi Everybody, especially Jean - I'm back and have just picked up a new baby, well not so new it was born in 1957. Take a look at it here. |
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Hi Malcolm, welcome back!! I'll toast to you tonight, several times, hic ;-)! I've actually been looking for one of those, congratulations it looks a Fabulous Beast, I predict it'll Crush many belt-drives! Looks like the British version of a Rek-o-Kut, and I mean that as a compliment (built like a tank).
Hi Mike, yep, again and again I am steered towards vintage classics, the 1966 Sony having defeated many pretenders old and new, and ALL my speakers are vintage. In fact, I just picked up a pair of Klipsch Heresy MKIs and I am astounded by these, I'm in love (AGAIN). I need an Intervention. I bought the Heresy's with an eye towards trying a triode amp some day, and these are very sensitive. But I wasn't prepared for the sheer amount of DETAIL these retrieve and communicate, which in addition to the SPEED and DYNAMICS micro and macro, which I did expect, adds up to one incredible ride! I was also not prepared for the almost total absence of horn colourations, which I did expect (glad to be proved wrong), just the eensiest amount of upper midrange/lower treble glare, less intrusive than many modern two-way speakers in fact ;-). I have them mounted on stands like normal bookshelf speakers, which might explain the very tight bass I am getting (against the general opinion), sounds like down to 50 Hz or so (helps to have Giant Idlers :-)). PERFECT apartment speakers. Perfect Idler speakers too, as they TRULY capture all the acrobatic and intense dynamics and speed and razor-sharp transients which are particular Idler strengths (it's ALL strengths, but these stand out). Keep us up to date on your Fisher system adventures please!! |
Yes, I'm looking forward to building a plinth for it soon. A bit of a story to the deck as well - it was owned by the British Ambassador to Hong Kong in the 50s and in fact travelled there and back, he used the deck until quite recently and now via his son-in-law gave it to me (yep for free!). Apparently this one was originally made for the US market and modified for 50hz and because of this the motor lubrication tube is not located correctly to marry up with the hole for it in the top plate. Interestingly the platter has stamped on it 'PASSED 31 OCTOBER 1957'.
Bornin50 - how does the ADC arm sound on the Connie on your page? I have one that came off an ADC deck and was thinking of fitting it. |
Hi Jean, I shall. I am about to clean the front facia tonight and will post some pics this week. I refinished the cool 60's wooden cabinet it came in too - looks pretty sweet flanked by the Dynacos.
It took me 2 weeks to break out of my paradigm and try the tone controls. It has plenty of bass - almost too much, so I set each speaker on a couple of books and... wait for it... turned the treble up to 2:00! :0) It sounds beauti-ful.
Mike |
I need longer threaded rodsfor the lenco to bolt it to my plinth. The rods that came with it are one inch long. My local hardware stores don't have this size rod and I don't know how to speak "rod longo". Does anyone know how to describe the size, and thread size of the correct rod? So when I call around, I can actually be understood? And if anyone has a link to an online store, all the better...Thanks. |
Goughary, they are M4 (metric #4) thread screws. If you are in the US, I could not find them anywhere local. They can be ordered in various lengths from McMaster Carr.
Not to be a net wiseass, but lately a couple of folks have asked questions here that were discussed and answered extensively in the old thread, available at the download section of http://www.lenco-lovers.com/ . You can get a ton of info off the old thread - that typically for an old internet thread, people may not feel like answering here.
Mike |
Goughary: The thread is called M4. Length depends on how thick your plinth is (and how deep into it the bolts go). |
Hi Goughary, you need M4 threaded rod. Good luck. |
Goughary,
If you have not found a source for the rods/screws, send me the length you need and I will get you a set of 4. It might be wise to measure a bit short and use a counter sink so that the screw head has some purchase.
Hope your project is coming along. |
I put up a couple of pics of my 500C - see my system. Now I start to wonder if the Eico HF 87's would have been the way to go.
Mike |
Eico HF-87 is legendary. Any time you have a chance to get one at a reasonable price, don't pass it up!
Of course since many were built from kits, workmanship can vary, but we're not going to be putting them into service without some upgrading and reworking, so workmanship and soldering issues can be easily addressed. |
Hi all, just here to report the Incredibilitude (you heard it here first, folks) of, what else but Idler-Wheel Drives?!? I have, being a Heretic, been driving the Klipsch Heresy MKIs with a 100-watt Mission 777 power amp, and backed up by the Lenco and Garrard have heard things which were not even remotely hinted at before!! Hey Mario, if you thought my set-up was detailed last time (with the Pierre amp and ESS AMT4s with Heil Air Motion Transformers), you ain't heard NUTHIN' yet!!
IMAGINE driving a pair of horn speakers with an incredibly Powerful Idler-Wheel Drive AND an incredibly powerful SS amp (with two transformers and more juice than I've ever experienced)...run for cover!! But actually, I am amazed at how delicate and unforced this system sounds when required, like acoustic guitar pieces which are rendered with more perfect delicacy and a light touch (but lightning response: the Mission amp was the fastest amp on the planet when it was released) than I have ever heard in my system. BUT. When something is SLAMMING, it is SLAMMING, She Blinded Me With Science hitting with more speed, SLAM, detail and forceful BASS than I have ever heard in my system. And the Klipsch are reputed to be weak in the bass. Not with an idler-wheel behind it (both Garrard and Lenco), and not with a powerful SS amp behind them! I also have them mounted up on stands so the tweeter is at ear level, and there is now nary a hint of horn colouration, brightness, grain and aggression of any sort. Neutral. I have found my speaker. I will however, eventually be hooking up a tube amp to them, the Search is on.
Now I had bought these speakers with an eye to trying out an SET, but having the Mission handy (which I bought because it was made in Canada back when metal-work was cheap in Canada - the big MISSION cast in metal for the faceplate with the ISSI being the heatsink - and I wanted something Canadian in my otherwise international set-up), I hooked it up after it wowed me via the KEF 103.2s. I realize now that good as my system was - and almost all who have heard my system either already had an idler-wheel drive, or went on to buy one - I have not even been scratching the surface of just how good these are, when properly optimized. Even via simple acoustic guitar works I heard things which I have never heard before, such as the clear separation of several guitars into 3 guitars, and with more delicacy and dynamics Macro- and Micro- as well. But with something already dynamic and impactful, like Thomas Dolby, the results are quite simply frightening. My skin is still sitting empty on the couch :-). I also extracted what sounded like an extremely powerful 40 Hz from the Heresies!
So now to the role of dynamics in sound. This current set-up shows just how important dynamics Micro- and Macro- are to the retrieval of detail and information, something which, as you all know (or should) idler-wheel drives excel at (along with every other audio attribute there is), so that should be "particularly" excel at. Imagine 3 guitars all playing at the same time. Most turntable/cartridge combos have difficulty keeping the three clearly separate. But the INCREDIBLE ability of an idler-wheel drive to capture the LEAST (and MOST) change in dynamic pressure means the three guitars are now much easier to apprehend. This is because the three guitarists are playing with varying amounts of pressure (or pluck), and the ability of an idler-wheel drive to faithfully capture this PLUCK (which test is failed by belt-drives which slow down at EXACTLY these moments of intense groove modulation) means the three guitarists are clearly identified and so separated, each strand and item of musical information faithfully organized and separate....and yet, with that ineffable Idler Magic, together in a way that again eludes the competition (this due to Speed Stability, of course, meaning perfect timing, or as near as). Ditto ALL instruments/recordings/electronica, ALL faithfully captured, organized, and communicated.
Now an idler-wheel drive is one thing, but not all stereo components further down the chain are created equal, some speakers are a faster than others, some preamps faster than others, and some amps faster than others. One thing I'll say for my current set-up, which is likely sweetened by the presence of the Audio Research SP-8, is it more faithfully captures ALL the dynamics a micro- and macro- (with the help of the horn-loaded Klipsch, with metal horns, and the ultra-fast Mission) than anything I've ever heard, ever, anywhere, at any time. This also means, in the light of what I've just written, that it is also the most detailed and informative system (AND exciting) I've ever heard.
Does this mean it's the best? NO, the little Sony is definitely velvetier and smoother (which helps with bright/grainy recordings, or records with groove damage), and I imagine a good tube amp will preserve the speed and detail (or near to), and inject some warmth (but this system IS surprisingly smooth and captures rich resonances easily, I'm in no hurry). Also, the Fab AR2ax's still preserve the incredible bass SLAM/weight/heft and the consequent edge in PALPABILITY (which I hope to inject into the Klipsch via tubes), and the amazing KEF Reference 103.2s still, incredibly (at half the size or less), go deeper in the bass and with an almost equal sense of limitless dynamics (but NOT speed) and detail as the Klipsch. I'll be experimenting further.
All this to say, that as much as I thought I was retrieving from the Lenco and Garrard 'tables, I've not even been scratching the surface!! No wonder the Lencos and Garrards I've sent out to do battle are crushing such luminaries as various EMTs and Platine's , not to mention the usual Suspects, Linns, VPIs, Nottinghams and so forth. They are being plugged into various high-sensitivity systems with balls and sound pressure, which CLEARLY show the great Idler Strengths (and once again, it's ALL strengths...just that some are more striking than other in a washed-out world of belt-drives and anemic DDs). The more responsive your speakers/set-up, the more clearly the Idler Strengths will be heard (and the further behind belt-drives and DDs will be left behind in the dust, choke), in a nutshell.
Be-OO-tiful receiver Mike, I've just scored a tube beastie to match up to my Klipsch (and various others for the fun of it, including the very sensitive ESS), not as vintage as the Scott, but still vintage. I've been sitting on a totally-fried tube Fisher integrated, also reportedly good.Gotta get off my ass and fix that one some day. Great to hear about the Eicos too, I'll have to retire from the human race and lock myself in a shed with a soldering iron and a listening chair. Have fun all in the Land of Vintage Gestalt!! |
I probably missed my change at the top Eicos - there was a pair of HF60's on ebay a couple of christmases ago - no one bid at about $900.
Mike |
Hello John,
I may have missed it somewhere but as best as I can surmise you do not use any kind of speed controllers on either your Lenco or Garrard. Do you think it is unnecessary with these tables? I am having a plinth built for my Lenco right now and want to optimize it to the maximum. I have been wondering whether to invest in a VPI SDS or other brand of speed control. Would much appreciate your input on this matter.
Kind regards, |
Hi Montepilot, you are correct, I have not felt the need for any speed controllers on either the Lencos or the Garrards so far. And so far, no matter the level of performance (or cost) of any system, neither Lenco nor Garrard has found even close to its equal, without any form of filtering or controller. But, I have not, in fact, ever tried speed controllers, having tested a filter or two to which the Lenco seemed immune. I advise you first to get to know the Lenco as-is (restoration, mass and coupling FAR more important, like the foundations of a house) before experimenting along these lines. Give yourself a few months at least in order not to be duped by optimism and illusion ;-), before trying something along these lines. Both machines rely on pure analog momentum. |
There has been a running theme in my various battles through the years to have the idler-wheel recognized as the best of the three systems (because I, and others exposed to it, clearly heard it), to wit, that the human ear was STILL the best measuring instrument in judging the relative worth of equipment, theories, implementations and approaches, a statement which has brought a fair share of criticism in the past on other threads (to the effect that measurements and scientific equipment was better-suited to the task) by the scientifically-inclined. From what my ears (and those of others) tell me, I come to the conclusion that speed measurements do NOT reflect reality and are therefore useless and worse, misleading, as simple auditioning makes clear the Lenco's (and Garrard, and various other supreme idlers) superior speed stability OBVIOUS. Hold in your minds the immortal words of Daniel R. von Recklinghausen, former Chief Research Engineer, H.H. Scott, who understood this fundamental issue: "If it measures good and sounds bad, it is bad; if it measures bad and sounds good, you have measured the wrong thing."
Along these lines is also the admirable statement by the musician/pianist BYRON JANIS - and thanks to Dave Pogue for bringing my attention to an interesting discussion of acoustics by Mr. Janis, in the article "The Sounds of Music: Want a concert seat with good acoustics? So does the pianist", Saturday, January 27, 2007 12:00 a.m. EST Wall Street Journal. Herewith the relevant passage: "The greatest concert halls we have--Symphony Hall in Boston, Carnegie Hall in New York and the Concertgebouw in Amsterdam, to name a few--combine clarity and brilliance without sacrificing warmth. It is interesting that all were built before 1901, prior to the availability of scientific instruments. Apparently, the human ear was (and for me still is) the best instrument of all."
The point is is the role of ASSUMPTION in science. The main assumption which plagues science so far as acoustics and stereo equipment goes being there are no assumptions, that all is built on solid fact!! From this, in particular, it is assumed that measuring equipment and theories are built on a foundation of FACT, empirical observations and so forth, which the result of the tests developed from these theories and facts - i.e. that Turntable A has better speed stability measurements than Turntable B - demonstrates is patently false. So, for instance, scientific theory based on incomplete data led to the theory/belief that the human ear could not hear the brick-wall filters used in early CD players...but the human ear proved to be all too sensitive to this. Then then human ear could not hear beyond 20 kHz...but, the human ear turned out to be, somehow, sensitive after all to these frequencies, which is why more and more equipment measures and performs up into the Stratosphere of frequency response. In all things, the human ear is the measure of a theory or a piece of equipment intended to measure what the human ear is supposed to be able to hear (or be sensitive to in ways not understood), not the reverse.
And ask yourselves, how many scientific theories we believe in implicitly are equally built on unseen and unidentified false assumptions and incomplete data/"evidence" ASSUMED to be complete? Go ye out and listen to a properly-restored idler-wheel drive all, and begin to THINK. And if thinking is too much to ask, then simply glory in the stunning sound of beautiful music faithfully reproduced with all (or most) of its impact and POWER intact! Try it, you'll like it! |
John,
Thanks for your response and for drawing attention to the Byron Janis article in WSJ. I was able to access the article online this morning and print out. A cogent article in regards to ears vs. instruments. Now another Lenco question. Have you found there is a minimum depth you must use in building a plinth to provide effective mass for the idler drives? My builder thinks 4" is sufficient however from the pictures that have been posted and particularly your own plinths they seem to be around 6" or more. Thanks for the assistance.
Regards, |
Hi Montepilot: the more the mass the merrier. Doesn't matter so much how you achieve the mass, so much as how MUCH mass. The best results I've had so far is with a combined weight/mass of 75-80 pounds, which is FAR FAR superior to a combined mass of, say, 40 pounds, much more than double the results. To achieve this mass with Russian birch-ply and MDF, I reach plinth dimensions of 23"W x 19"D x 6"H, Lenco and feet not included. Do a little research on this thread and others, the mass only become truly effective when combined with Direct Coupling, which is the Key. |
Hey Jean, it was great reading of your experiences with a horn based loudspeaker system. I wondered when you would finally get around to it, persistant experimenter that you are. When I reported two years ago how my newly aquired Lenco easily bested my Well Tempered Classic, a horn based Altec A7 speaker system made the differences easy to hear. You are right, idler wheels {big bass and hugh dynamics} and horns {the added bass helps and whats wrong with even more dynamics} are made for each other. As you continue to persue horns try to integrate an active crossover as this is the secret to fine tuning these excellent speaker systems as well as providing even more dynamics.
On another note I wanted to report that I'm still enjoying the Ortofon MC 10 super I aquired from you. A very underrated cartridge provided you can load it down to 30-50 ohms. I'm presently being tempted by the new Ortofon Samba for $225 at Needle Doctor which specs out very similar to the MC 10 which it replaces.
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Hey Rjdcan, great to hear from you again! Give me enough years, and I will eventually get around to everything ;-)! Just so no one gets the wrong idea (so many are looking for reasons NOT to try an idler-wheel drive), in any system and with any speakers of whatever sensitivity, the big idlers like the Lencos and Garrards are CLEARLY superior in every way to their belt-drive cousins. It's just that, the more responsive/fast/dynamic the system, the greater the lead the idlers will take, due to their STUNNING dynamics Macro and Micro, and leading-edge transients. So don't take this as an excuse to avoid the Idler!!
Glad to hear you are still getting mileage out of that MC, it is unkillable!! I have a confession to make: faced with the repair cost on my Kiseki (one channel out and likely the stylus to replace), and perusing possibilities, a very good deal came up on an Ortofon Jubilee, and doing the research and reading between the lines (that not only was the detail and so on first-rate, but it was BEAUTIFUL-sounding), I decided to spring for it for Christmas (of course, audio-wise it's ALWAYS Christmas for me) rather than invest in refurbing the Purpleheart Sapphire, which never had quite enough balls for my taste, though plenty of Beauty. Well, the Jubilee has the balls of the Denon DL-103 and the refinement of the Kiseki (and like the Kiseki, FANTASTIC bass), it gets the music RIGHT, and based on this experience - and on the M15E Super which I still love (I should mount it on my RS-A1, but my Denon is still making beautiful music there) - I can certainly highly recommend the newer Ortofons as well.
And to those running Deccas, in experimenting with my various cartridges in order to optimize them/match them to the proper tonearm in the context of my system, I made the following discovery: the Decca improves vastly when mass is added to the tonearm. Add a cartridge weight at the headshell end of a tonearm, and the consequent and added moving back of the counterweight will effectively increase the overall mass. BIG jump in dynamics, detail, clarity.
Have fun all, off to listen to my latest classical score! |
Hi Jean,
I may be wrong but as far as I know the Klipsch Heresy is not a horn. It was called Heresy because of this fact!
Peter |
The Klipsch Heresy is not fully horn loaded because the 12" woofer operates as a direct radiator but the tweeter and midrange use horn loaded compression drivers resulting in a 97db efficiency. |
Hi Jean
Does adding mass to the headshell of the Decca also give an increase in bass and substance?
Paul |
Hi Paul: one of the Decca's great strengths (and there are many) is bass power, which even its opponents concede. If you're not getting that now, then I hope anyway more mass will help. One thing for certain, the extra mass increases focus, SLAM/dynamics and clarity in the bass. In my system, with the slightly bass-light Klipsch Heresy's, I can't currently tell if it has increased reach. Try it, you might like it! One thing I didn't expect from a Decca being mounted on a Giant Direct Coupled Idler, is that now it sounds very much like a Grado (except with extra speed): rich and resonant and smoooottthh and organic. Never heard a Decca sound like THIS before! Very easy to live with. On belt-drives it comes across as more speed and detail-oriented, and in your face. Idlers suit it!
Yep Peter, they are horn-loaded as Rjdcan says, except the woofer: maybe this is the heresy! Apparently, PWK named the Cornwalls for the fact they were to be placed in the corn-er, against the wall :-). |
With the Decca, adding mass to the headshell seems to be the most effective, in my experience.
I have observed this with the modified Rabco SL-8E on my Garrard 301, and with a homebuilt Well Tempered clone that was on my modified AR belt-drive. On both of them, adding mass to the headshell improved bass definition and extension, and imaging. I am guessing that since the Decca throws a lot of energy back into the arm, added mass would tend to reduce the effect of that energy, otherwise more of it would get various vibration modes going in the arm itself. Just my guess... |
Hi Jean. Thanks for your reply and apologies for it being wasted. After working 12 hours on a screen my eyes were even fuzzier than my brain and I mis-read your post as adding mass to the Decca tone arm instead of the Decca cartridge.
I'd love to have a Decca cartridge but for the forseeable future will have to make do with reading about your, and others, experiences with them.
In the meantime I do have a Decca tone arm and with a bit of application and experimentation can probably answer my own question.
Regards, Paul |
Hello all. my lenco is about set up after a 10 month hiatus destroying my bottom disc lifting a piano, with resultant surgery, then buying a house with 6 months work needed (sorry back). in the meantime, while recovering, i've found the most amazing internet radio site - digijazz at http://www.abc.net.au/dig/jazz/default.htm
playing fascinating jazz amazingly interesting nonstop!
Meanwhile, i cannot play lenco as my sony pre is in need of tlc and i sold all my phono stages to buy my house. However, today i have set up my Yamaha NS-615 speakers, given my sony power its 2 day warm up, and have been frankly astonished by the sound coming out of these little speakers, them just sitting on the floor! Ok i have got seperate 10mm mains cable coming from my hifi consumer unit to every component, but these speakers are remarkable. and all because i was looking for Ns-625's, a la jean. Jean, i'm amazed at the amount of time you have to throw hifi together experiment and what you come up with next.
mgreen love your system. heard a fisher about 2 yrs ago, it was seductive! |
Thanks David. Setting up at least one TT this weekend in order to tune my speakers to the main source.
I think I am going to try a variovent or two - anyone here have any experience?
Mike |
Has anyone had any experience mounting an Audio Technica ATP-12T 10" arm on an L70 in the stock mount hole? Does it fit? Is there a way to make it work? Is it any good? What does it sound like?
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Goughary I own a ATP-12T and use it with a Denon Dl-103. Its a 12" arm and cannot be used in the stock Lenco L-75 mount hole; I don't know about the Lenco L-70 but I would doubt they were built stock for 12" arms. I built my Lenco plinth wide enough to mount a second arm along the left side of the top plate. I don't recall the effective length of the arm but found the information on it over at the audio asylum. I bought it for the dl-103 and a SPU ortofon that I have'nt got around to buying yet; it sounds good and will handle heavy low compliance cartridges. I've read that it was used alot in the broadcast industry. |
Hi all lenco lovers,
Is it possible to decouple the motor mounting from topplate? I mean to build separte motor mounting block.I am sure it would put lenco to another level.Thanks all feedback.KB |
Hi Goughary,
My BPL-61 (forerunner of the L-70) has a spindle to pivot distance of 225mm. Your ATP-12T calls for a 242mm mounting distance. That extra 17mm would take you back to the corner of the plate. Depending how big of a mounting hole the AT needs, you might just be able squeeze it on.
- Mario |
Hi Easytune
I believe Jean built one like this back in the idler wheel dark ages. I'm sure he will give you details soon. |
A local fellow who has asked me to build him a Giant Direct Coupled Lenco has just left after an afternoon of listening, and in leaving (and in the context of an extremely high-end system) admitted to me that the day he first heard one of these rebuilt Lencos (last summer), was the day he started to hate his Wilson Benesch turntable.
Oh yes, the Lenco is Mighty, but I have some bad news to impart to all Lenco followers, and Yea, it is this: the Lenco is severely coloured. Yea and Woe!! In every system I hear it in - and I get the opportunity to hear it in many in my favourite sport, Crush the Belt-Drive (and my second-favourite sport, Crush the DD) - the sound of a Lenco is unmistakable. In fact, every time I hear it in a different context I laugh as I hear the Unmistakable Ingredient, the sonic signature of the Mighty Lenco. What is this colouration, this sonic signature?!? It is the Ultra-Fluid, Unstoppable quality/character, the sound of perfect speed, like the flowing of the Amazon into the Atlantic at full flood. It is the sound of transients perfectly captured, of the utterly natural presentation of unthinkable and unbelievable amounts of detail, thus managing the very difficult trick of not sounding particularly detailed, but instead simply like the music it is playing. It is the sound of large-scale dynamics growing at the speed of light, limitless, when required, of all the little micro-dynamics, which nail the organization, perfectly preserved and retrieved. It is the sound of a perfect image, with TONS of atmosphere, of endless decays and echoing chambers, of air moving, changing pressure, expanding and contracting. It is the sound of intense musicality squeezed out of even the worst recordings (especially if the artist, like Nina Simone, is truly great). This colouration, O Lenco Followers, is this: Perfection. Yes, the Lenco sound SO perfect it is almost a violation of the laws of physics, which allows no perfection in this, the physical world. And every time I hear it, there it is, unmistakable, the sound of a Lenco, and I laugh as it pierces through the masking influence of alien systems and makes itself known, whatever the context. Incredible. Sorry to have steered you all down this path of severe colouration, this sound our brains scream is impossible, and which thus always manages to amaze us, through the years without stop, my apologies.
And my apologies as well to those belt-drivers who have sunk huge amounts of dosh into their sources, as they are eventually going to have to face the music, so to speak, face the Mighty Lenco, as I send them out to do battle in no-holds-barred systems, in the systems of designers, in the systems of distributors, in the systems of retailers and in the systems of the well-heeled (or simply obsessive) and make the point. My ambassadors are Out There (there's more than one way to skin a cat, in the face of unscientific political correctness which makes the following Statement of Faith, no different from religion: I BELIEVE all systems are equivalent - not I KNOW all systems are equivalent, an impossible statement to make truthfully, since the fellows peddling this have not tested the claim), and they'll eventually be knocking at your door. Welcome it in, you can only gain. That nagging voice that tells you, no matter how far up the ladder of belt-drive-ness you've climbed, "something is yet missing", will be vindicated, but the answer will be there: Lenco (or Idler-Wheel).
So, to answer your question Easytune, if you click under my "system" you will see at the top of my list the first Lenco I ever rebuilt, in which I indeed, due to all the propaganda about noise, built with the motor completely removed from the top-plate. But, it turned out, the whole noise issue was grossly exaggerated, and was due also to improper set-up. When I started the original thread, I wanted the design as simple as it could be in order to gather fellow experimenters, and in the process discovered myself that it was not necessary to remove the motor. In fact, I discovered mass and Direct Coupling (the two go together) make a FAR larger difference to the sound, and make such acrobatics as split plinths moot (as the annihilation of the low-mass two-tier Cain & Cain plinth by my single high-mass plinth makes clear). In addition, the least difference in the geometry of the motor relative to the workings will be detrimental to the sound. Nevertheless, until I started the original thread, I had listened to my two-tier Lenco for close on 12 years. Of course, everyone is free to design as they wish, it's your baby, and the Lenco will not disappoint, as its essential ingredients will remain, all tied to its amazing speed stability (which, however, improves by Direct Coupling to a high mass).
Hi David, your Audiogon "system" is a hoot, I was rolling on the ground as I clicked on each different item listed to find in each case a photo of a Lenco!! For a Good Time, click on Gilbodavid's "system" :-)! |
Hello Jean,
Yup...the Lenco is great indeed (;-)
Cheers
Peter |
Hi Jean,
Thanks for your precious information.Indeed, the rebuild lenco with heavy plinth is remarkable TT.The music it makes has more body and presence,even thought the motor is little noisy in my rebuild lenco.I think I just need to enjoy music and forget about little noise.KB |
Hi KB, that's the spirit and the right attitude! However, noise from a Lenco motor is NOT normal (mine are characterized by DEAD silence, even when compared to belt-drives said to be superb in this regard) it would help if we knew which model Lenco you were using, what wiring scheme, and whether you have taken it apart to clean and re-lube it. Any other details you might have as well which you might feel are relevant. Have you checked under my "system" for my info on motor adjusting and rebuilding? |
