Hi Helen, great to hear from you again, and that you are hearing the Lenco again! The magic of it never ceases to astound me, and I've lived with it for nigh-on two decades now, now THERE's value for money :-)!
Oops, and great news on the marble plinth Mario, you know of course that I'm watching with great interest, as my original idea back in the early '90s when it seemed actual manufacturing might occur, was the building of Lenco-derived decks out of romantic Parian and Naxian marble, famed in poetry for centuries. Ah, such grand visions...then the bottom fell out of the analogue market, falling to its lowest point and indeed seeming like the long-foretold END. Glad to see it wasn't so, and in fact the reverse!!
Up here, I made a booboo and blew a fuse on my Sony, and made a Great Discovery: my AR2ax's, with which manly He-Man 100-watt SS amps struggle, is easily driven to great volume and with superb tight bass by my 25-watt Class A push-pull tube amp! No more dramatic verification can there be of the designer's cautioning that the speakers were designed for the output transformers of tube amps, having been designed in the '60s. This means nigh-on world-class sound can be achieved at an incredible budget price: match up the superb AR2ax's to a vintage Dynaco amp for an incredible end result. I was amazed at the increase in soundstage depth and specificity when I switched from the Klipsch - which are quite good at this relative to some other speakers - to the ARs, which clunky-looking as they are, definitely look like they shouldn't image at all. And, the predicted increase in PRaT and magic, along with against-the-evidence-of-the-eyes excellent detail and tonal neutrality. And where's the hidden subwoofer? I love these speakers!! Terrible fun swapping all these vintage legends in and out too, each set-up emphasizing yet another strength of the Lenco, and commanding respect for those legendary designers (Paul Klipsch, Henry Kloss, Herb Vilchur, Oskar Heil...) and each I could easily live with. But at these prices, why choose only one? I have got to try a Dynaco ST-70 with these speakers at some point, likely at the end of the summer/early Fall.
The Ikeda/Denon match-up is very good, very detailed (making the Denon DL-103"E" sound like a high-end MC in this respect), and with no hint of fierceness whatsoever. Further listening ahead. Have fun all! |
Hi All. My new Shelter 5000 cartridge arrived last week and after about 25 hours is starting to make some real music. Unfortunately, I'm experiencing a lot of sub-sonic rumble. I can tell that part of it is coming from the bearing and I think some of it is coming from my idler wheel. It felt rough when touching it as it spun. I've tried taking a Q-tip with tape-head cleaner to it and it seems to get better but then gets rough again. Was it a mistake to use the cleaner? Is the old rubber susceptible to fraying? Would appreciate some advice from the Lenco gurus who've been around the block with this. |
Plastic idler, or metal?
For years I haven't seen a single plastic idler whose rubber is still usable. That stuff hardens and inevitably makes for rough spots.
If it's a metal idler and it is developing noise due to rough or hardened rubber, you can have it rebuilt by any of several suppliers. If it is a plastic idler, you will HAVE to get that done. |
Thanks. It's metal and I have a spare, so I sent it to a shop in Mississippi that does resurfacing for a very affordable price.
I've spoken to a few machine shops in Portland and none of them seem to be able to polish my bearing well and spindle. Anyone have any suggestions about what kind of specialty shop I should be looking at? |
The following, about overhauling the main (spindle) bearing, is from Sander Mommers on the Lenco Lovers forum at
http://www.lenco-lovers.com/forum/
=================================================
Main bearings.. here's how I do it.
First, see if the existing bushings can be re-used or not, this depends on how much play they have.
Put your fingers on top of the plateau, one hand on each side.
Push down gently alternately left and right, and see how much the plateau moves. If you can hear "clunk clunk" when you do this, the existing bushings are worn, and need replacing.
In my experience, it is very rare that the original bearing bushings are still good, as a matter of fact, I have replaced the bushings in all the bearings so far.
New bushings
Get some Oilite bronze bearing bushings from your local bearing shop. The size you need is 9 x 12, 14 mm long, and you need two of those. They should cost around $5. each. Soak the bushings in the oil you are going to use for a couple of days. (more on oil later)
Remove the screw on the side of the bearing, pull out the shaft. If the ball came with it, take it off and put it in a safe place. If not, turn the bearing upside down and tap on the table to dislodge it. Now, remove the circlip from the bottom with special circlip pliers. If you don't have those, small needle nose pliers will work too. If necessary, file or grind the tips down so that they fit inside the small holes in the circlip. Two small screwdrivers works too, but that is definitely more awkward.
Anyway.. get the blessed thing out somehow, by squeezing the ends of the circlip towards each other. Preferentially, don't do too much damage to the brass housing and the groove it sits in.
Remove the bottom plates, and measure how far "in" the bottom bearing sleeve sits with respect to the end of the brass housing. This should be 7 mm. You can now remove the old bushings. Find a suitable tool to push them out with. I use a long M6 Bolt. The head is just under 12 mm, and thus it fits inside the 12 mm bearing housing. Start by inserting the head of the bolt into the bottom of the housing. Holding the housing in your hand, gently tap on the bolt with a small hammer. The sleeve will start to move inwards. Keep going until it hits the other sleeve. Things will get a bit harder, because now you have to move two bushings, but they will come out this way. In hard cases, put the housing upside-down in an opened vise and hammer downward until both sleeves have fallen out..
Now, thoroughly clean the housing. I use a solvent (hexane, acetone) and an ultrasonic bath, or soak a kleenex in solvent and pull it through a few times. Make sure the housing is clean, and has no lint or other stuff in it.
Push in the new sleeves from each end, until they are flush with the housing. It is very important not to damage the sleeves in any way when you do this. If you are going to use a small hammer, put a small piece of wood between the hammer and the sleeve. Now, the bottom sleeve has to be tapped in some more. Put the thick bottom plate of the bearing on top of the sleeve, and push/hammer down. That was 2 mm. Now, find an M6 nut of 5 mm thick, put that on top and push/hammer until flush.
The sleeve is now exactly 7 mm down into the housing.
Polishing the spindle.
Put the spindle with the narrow end in a drill. apply jeweler's rouge to the rest, and squeeze the spindle in a cloth (old jeans are great) Now run the drill for a few seconds and voila. Repeat until the shaft is perfectly shiny, with no sign of scratches or anything. Clean the spindle with solvent (alcohol) to get rid of every last bit of jeweler's rouge.
Put a bit of oil on the haft, and verify that it slides and rotates freely in the bushings, without "binding" anywhere.
What kind of oil.....
There are many kinds of oil. For a spindle bearing you want something that is not too thin. I have used synthetic 5w40 motor oil. Some people say that synthetic is better, because it does not "cake" over time. Thin oil will feel like less friction if you hold the bearing in your hand, but that can be deceptive. You want a QUIET bearing, and that is not necessarily the same as frictionless. The idea is that there is always a layer of oil between the metals, to avoid "grinding" metal to metal. The idea of the Lenco bearing is that the weight is taken by the ball, and that there is very little sideways force on the bearing. This is only true when the plateau is LEVEL and perfectly balanced. You want an oil that is thick enough to keep a film between the metals even in a case where there is SOME sideways force on the bearing. I go for quiet, as tested with a stethoscope on the frame next to the plateau while spinning the plateau.
The silent oil wins.... I have used synthetic 5W40 motor oil, and some oils I had around at work: Edwards vacuum pump oil, Leybold and Balzers turbo-molecular pump oil. Van Den Hul sells an interesting oil for spindle bearings, with 1 micron little balls in it. I have ordered some, but I have not received it yet. It has become evident that each bearing has it's favorite.. One liked Balzers TL011, and another one was happier with the slightly thicker Leybold HE500. I'm guessing it depends on the clearance between shaft and bushings...
New bottom plate ?
Most people replace the old grey bottom plate with a hard steel disc of 12 mm diameter. The original plastic plate usually has a big dimple in it, caused by the ball. If you replace it with a metal plate, aim for something of the same thickness as the original, 0.6 mm. Others just turn the original plate upside down to get a "new" surface for the ball.
Putting it together...
New pressure plate or not, put the two bottom plates and the snap ring back in. I put a snug fitting plastic cap (without a hole, like the lenco ones have..) over the bottom of the bearing, to catch any oil spills. To dispense the oil, I use a 5 cc syringe with a thick needle (1.25 mm, I forgot to look at the Gage number) The point has been cut from the needle with a dremel tool and all burrs removed, because I don't want to scratch anything. I squirt about 2cc's of oil in the bottom of the bearing, drop the ball in, and push the spindle in. Some oil will ooze out of the bottom, and push the cap down somewhat. Now, I inject oil through the screw hole in the side, until that cavity is full of oil, and put the screw in. While holding down the spindle, I push the cap back up. Some oil will escape from the cap, wipe it off. We now have a permanently lubricated bearing with two oil reservoirs, one below each sleeve.
Time for the noise test.....
Not dead silent?? no panic. try a different oil or perhaps a tiny bit of dirt got in somehow.
For one particularly obnoxious bearing I had to resort to "wearing it in" by spinning the shaft in a drill at full speed for a minute or two, followed by a re-polishing of the shaft to get it silent.
At the end of all this you have a 100% silent bearing without any play. Better than new, I would say.
If it sounds like a lot of work.. it is, but it is well worth it.
_________________
Sander Mommers
(Have Lenco - will travel) |
Gp49 (Gram Parsons?- I wish).
Great addition. Thanks for taking the time. |
Jean is THE MASTA!!! of Da Lenco!
Always willing to help, always positive, never rude or disrepectful.
From the moment I stumbled onto the old thread, Jean has been a true and complete gentleman. He has, in private emails, been generous to point out the contributions of others and refer me to them.
I hope that we continue to benefit from his hard work and talent.
To hear the Lenco, is to Love the Lenco! |
Thanks for posting that, Gp49. It sounds like a lot of work, but I've gotten this far, I'm sure that I'll be able to figure it all out. I've learned to trust the Lenco experts. Hearing is believing. |
I got my top-plates from Reinderspeter, beautiful work Peter!! Won't be working with them until late summer though, as currently I am swamped, and then I'll be out once again somewhere on the globe, perhaps having some Lenco adventures, as some of you might soon discover, or not.
After a prolonged absence (a few days) from my system, I returned to Music Heaven, ah, these vintage systems sound soooo GOOD, especially when backed up by big idlers :-)!!
Great to read such detailed work on main bearings, and evidently from an expert, kudos to Sander!! Though I have never yet found a Lenco bearing which was not pristine, I'm sure they are out there, so I'll add the instructions to my "Lenco Lore" against future need (for other 'tables too:-))!! Speaking of which...Huh?!? What happened?!? Something stank in the State of Denmark, I heard a noise, then it all disappeared. A Mystery ;-).
Anyway, I'll be playing with my Lenco this weekend, have to say, so far, I LOVE those Rega tonearms (especially the RB-300)!! They do so much right, and have such a warmth and musicality, and seem to work well with all cartridges!! Perhaps it's my Cardas/Music Boy (especially Music Boy) wiring recipe. Highly recommended. Now it's mounted on my Garrard (with my Ortofon Jubilee), but I think I must set it up again on my Lenco and hear it, once again, there. More reports to come, have fun all! |
I agree Johnnantais...I'm totally blown away by my Rega 300 arm. I've got a very mediocre Ortofon cartridge on it, but...the music is sooo alive!! It leaves the Decca International arm at the starting grid. my god, what would it sound like with a decent cartridge on it??? I'm using it with a homemade (not by me I hasten to add) valve amp,volume control is via a Marantz 2230 tuner and have two sets of speakers linked up- Spendor BC1's and a superb pair of prototype Tannoys ( a friend of mine used to design speakers for Tannoy and gave me a pair).Every musician is right here in the room with me, the music is part of me, every instrument is playing just for me, a very intimate connection...lying here, totally immersed in the music..every note, every breath is here in the room with me. No boundaries, i am right in there with the music, its resonating with every cell of my being. This is how recorded music should be....alive, present, ...am so grateful to gilbodavid for introducing me to the Lenco..thank you David! |
This may have been answered in years past, but here's the question - I have a european motor and want to use it - So I need an american spindle - 60hz - Has anyone actually done this? And if so, does it sound as good as the correct combination? Does the motor generate too much heat? Someoen told me that if I have a motor that is 220v/50hz and run it on 110v/60hz, that it'll get really hot and potentially burn out? Is this motor designed to just switch spindles? Or did they actually make different motors for different areas of the world? I have a Braun mixer that is rated for both 50 and 60 hz, so it is possible right? I don't know enough about this stuff - so a listening test between correct shaft and motor and replaced shaft and motor, and some idea of heat is all I'm looking for...
And of course, if anyone has an extra 60hz spindle around, I'll happily buy it from you - I'm also looking for another Platter, so if anyone has one of those lying around...
and Michael - I got the plinth veneered and it's coming along great - this new deck is very exciting... |
Goughary, I figure that it is more reasonable to look for another motor - or even another deck. I finally got another motor from Francois over on the other thread. Every now and then, a Euro-Lencoer gets a 60HZ motor. Keep an eye pealed over on e-Pay.
There is a thread over on Lenco Lovers that answers your question re burning a 50hz motor - I cant remember exactly what it said.
Mike |
Hmmm....everyone seems to be sleeping, so I'll jump in. The motor voltage is strictly a matter of wiring: make sure the AC goes to positions 1 and 4 on the barrier strip at the back of the motor, and the switch to positions 2 and 3. Look under my "system" for an idea. The NA spindle does indeed simply pop in, the only difference between the two is machining of the sloped part against which the wheel spins. Just pop it in, wire correctly, and it'll work. Problem is getting a NA spindle, as it will necessarily come from a whole Lenco. You can always consider buying one of the cheaper light-platter Lencos for parts. Good luck!
Great post Helen: an object lesson to detail-fixated audiophiles out there in how to listen to Greatness. Not that the Lencos and other big idlers don't also rule at detail/information-retrieval, just a matter of musical priorities. While the Lencos and other large idlers rule at detail and everywhere else, where they REALLY get stupendous and downright supernatural is in the intensity of their musicality/musical POWER. Go back and read Helen's post all, and think "Kundalini Effect" ;-). Can anything but vinyl (available in the here and now) do that?!? Vive la Vinyl, and the Idlers which realize its potential!! |
My last post seems not to have gone on. Jean you sly dog.. i bet you have bought up 50 Lencos, cut Srajan in and now youre going to anounce it to the world through 6moons and make a killing. Nice. Seriously, good luck with the adventure of getting all the bits to him and together, and then to open his ears to the wonder of vinyl and Lencos. |
Hi Guys,
I haven't slept much the last few days trying to read everything on the net for the Amazing Lenco l75 and I am really getting excited about the future :) As I am patiently waitng my Lenco to arrive from Sweden ( I live in Bulgaria, no Lencos here) I have a few questions before I start with the restoration. I have read all the basic stuff and first steps that need to be taken but there are things that I am still not sure about. Please excuse me if I have missed the info, I just read a million pages and it's all a mess in my head.
So can anyone please say a few words or show a picture of the following:
1."Glass reinforcing" or "Glass epoxy mod" ?
2. Mumetal mod??
3.Just a few words again on "direct coupling", please?
Thanks in advance, I could never really express what a light this thread brought to my life,thanks a million for making me smile again,you people truly made it into History! |
Hi David, I wish!! The whole thing, as written in the article, was Bob's idea, and for that I thank him deeply, as should you all, as an Ambassador/Product of Da Thread will be sent out for Official Recognition!! Celebrate!!! When Bob, who isn't afraid to tell it like it is and use big words like "Crush" and "Incredible" - and like you too David ;-) - if the facts support the word (i.e.; it is an accurate description of the reality, something which seems to escape so many who see the world through socially-imposed politically-correct lenses, and so don't like to make definitive statements), approached me and asked me if he could approach some magazines for a review, I wrote him to go ahead, kill himself doing it, that no one would touch me or the Lenco/Idler Movement with a 10-foot pole!
Imagine my surprise when I received - THE SAME DAY - not one but two e-mails, via Bob, one from Srajan Ebaen, the editor of 6moons, saying yes, and one from Jeff Day, an outspoken idler fan himself, who was looking forward to it and supportive. So, seeing that Srajan was based on Cyprus, that I try to travel every summer to the Mediterranean, that I had been involved in quite a few digital vs analogue dust-ups on Audiogon recently, I thought to - as always - put my money where my mouth was (Srajan has a VERY serious digital rig, coming in at something like $43K, so the Lenco has its work cut out for it), combine the Whole Enchilada and see what happened. Again I didn't expect success, and was amazed once again that not only was Srajan open to the experience/experiment/adventure, he was enthusiastic about it and day by day knocked down every single of my proposed objections/road-blocks!
I do believe Srajan, being an original thinker himself, is attracted to rebellious, questioning movements. He did the research himself, and so I had to try and make an effort too and at my end I contacted my contacts and had them relieve me of much of the expense: providing tonearm, cartridge and phono stage (and many thanks to them as well). But this will still be a very expensive venture, to ship, to build (I am having special metal feet made, having the metal parts bead-blasted and professionally re-coated in a very tough finish, developing a special plinth-building method, etc....this is for a high-end audio mag, no Canadian Rustics here!).
So I still don't know if it will happen: as should be clear to those who have followed my writings over the years, I value Travel well above Audio, and if it comes down to a choice between months of freedom doing my thing (also very expensive) and a review of the actual Lenco animal, then it's bye-bye review.
Those who have read the article will also have noted the Wyetech connection: to my surprise Roger Hebert, the brilliant mind behind the World-Class Wyetech electronics (and you haven't lived until you've heard a Lenco via his equipment...check out the several reviews of his equipment in various mags including TAS), catching news of the possible review on the Arctic Wind up here, came out and publicly announced his own Lenco conversion. Another who did not hesitate and instead trusted his hearing.
He heard one of my Lencos being demonstrated at a certain speaker manufacturer who was using Wyetech prototype top-of-the-line monoblocks to drive them (the combo, with the Lenco and ONLY with the Lenco, literally shook the concrete basement floor of the auditioning room) and was impressed. I soon received a phone call asking if I would bring my Lenco to his house for a demonstration? For reference, Roger uses big Zus, Coincident Total Victories, and a HUGE pair of limited-edition Tannoys (my favourites, though the other two are superb as well), and was using a VPI Aries with a Benz L2. Within one minute of hearing it, Roger turned to me and said "I want one". Still frightened of using the word "Crush" you timid fellows out there?
But Roger is a professional who produces impeccably finished and built electronics (works of engineering and visual art, truly, inside and out), and had to have a professionally-finished Lenco, and not the "dog's breakfast" that particular Lenco was :-) So, elated at the PR value of this latest conversion, I hired a cabinet-maker (and learned from him, very expensive lessons), and a lacquerer, and so began the making of the new plinths, which I owe to Roger for kicking my ass to take aesthetics more seriously, and teaching me some lessons as to Zen-like Perfectionism.
That same dog's-breakfast Lenco was also auditioned by Rob Fraboni, producer for Keith Richards and Bob Dylan among others, and he spent time listening to it via the prototype spoeaker/amp combo from various points in the room (the Lenco was VASTLY superior to the high-end digital source as the speaker manufacturer already knew, which was why I was asked to bring the Lenco for the demonstration for Fraboni). Though a digital man, he was interested enough to ask "Does it have to be this big?" Aesthetics is one thing, but ay, Performance is the thing!
Anyway, This Is It: the Lenco as it has developed on this Thread, and so its child, gets Official Recognition. I will be building it - assuming I AM building it and shipping it (a lot cheaper not to, it's a lot of beer and suntan lotion) - according to the Principles developed on the Home Despot Thread: Giant Direct-Coupled (pan married to the plinth) birch-ply/MDF (humble but most effective so far in my experience, and in tests superior to some quite more exotic recipes), Glass Re-Inforced (the pouring of high-grade marine-grade glass epoxy into the hollows of the Lenco top-plate to re-inforce and eliminate vibration/noise, pricey but worth it) Lenco L75. Of course the aesthetics will be expensive, but we have to send out a proper Ambassador from Da Thread/s do we not, and not a dog's breakfast ;-)?!?
Now, I had promised a while back that things were getting exciting, and now I think we're THERE :-). This is, I remind you all, cause for CELEBRATION (quit yer whining, you whiners out there), so go Ye out and do so however it is you do so!!! So one more time for the Gipper (whoever he is): Vive la Lenco, Vive la Idler-Wheel!!! |
:)))
Thanks for the short explanations of each, that was a gentleman act. Wish you all the best! |
Exciting, Exciting EXCITING !! Lenco comes into the Light !!
Congratulations to ALL who have contributed in the Great Experiment, kicked off by Jean oh-so-many years ago ! We have learned many lessons together, through the community of Da Thread/Da Thread II.
I must personally thank Jean for being the Raving Lunatic he is... and for his unswerving conviction to what he believes in. When I stumbled onto Da Thread in early 2004, it seemed this guy was waaaay over the top in expressing the greatness of the idler-wheel drive, and the Lenco design in particular. Talk about blowing out huge gusts of hot air :-)
BUT... I kept reading with interest, and day by day the hyperbole sounded more and more credible. I went from A) highly suspicious of these outlandish claims, to B) questioning my own assumptions of "what's the best TT", to C) believing in the Gospel of The Lenco, to D) voting with my dollars, and acquiring an L75. Quite a leap of faith for a skeptical guy like me. This is the power of the Nantais Prose.
Today I'm thankful I didn't rush into a plinth rebuild... no, it's been the opposite ("Woe is me... Will I EVER get that thing running ?"). The reward for waiting: today, the Monster-Class design details are pretty much understood and
shared freely to all who will listen. Thank you Jean and thank you All, for developing these refinements to the basic "solid plinth" we began with.
A year ago I had the pleasure of sitting in front of Jean's system - my first chance to actually hear what the fuss was all about. The Man is Right. He does not exaggerate in his wild and wonderful descriptions of the portrayal of Music via the Lenco... I heard it for myself... and must concur and support his claims.
As if that audition was not enough, I was even more fortunate to accompany Jean and his Monster Lenco to the Wyetech Listening Room. My (audio) life will never be the same. We were treated to the most effortless, lifelike recreation of live music I have EVER witnessed. Tom Waits - Nighthawks at The Diner... not even a special Mo-Fi pressing, but Jean's bargain bin find.
THEY were not in the room with us... No, we were in the club with THEM. Completely magical... transported to the venue... transcending all the reviewer-cliches you've read a thousand times - there was no "hey listen to the top end sparkle", or "boy, the bass sure flaps your pants" - it was just a thrilling performance happening before us. Totally "natural" in dynamics, from muttered comments between songs, to the band roaring full-tilt. We just HAD to sit through both sides... yup, the complete album - it was that compelling. D'you ever do that with your audiobuddies, or is it the same 3 tracks from the same 3 records ?
Arrestingly, unspeakably impressive. Roger Herbert is one crafty designer... I didn't know electronics could get out of the way like his do, and let the music speak as though through that elusive "straight wire, with gain". Bravo !!
While I can only D R E A M of having all that world-class gear at my personal command, the good news is, the crucial front end source for this amazing lesson is The humble and Mighty Lenco. ("Hey, I'm making one of those right now...") And if it ain't in the source, you can't make it up further down stream.
Thanks again and again and again to the Lenco Brotherhood, for the gift of Knowledge & Friendship. I almost missed this group... it was a random search that dropped me into Da Thread - and curiosity in what the H*ll that Jean Guy was blathering on and on and on about - that made me stick long enough to be converted. Now I'm poised for Everlasting LP Happiness. My L75 project is underway, and with the benefit of all your collective experience, I'll steer clear of many pitfalls.
Three Cheers and Vive la Lenco, Vive la Idler-Wheel!!!
Grant |
Well done Grant.
Thanks for sharing a familiar experience- surprise (at some guy ranting about a DIY $200 turntable. Entertainment and curiosity, went back to see more ranting, total skpticism, noticed some others in ranting mode, inquired about Nottinghams and Well Tempered tables only to hear that some were sold and replaced by the old Lenco??? Went back. Made contact with that crazy guy up north. Found him to be nothing but class and a real gentleman. Always willing to share with no strings.
Now, a true Lenco fanatic myself.
Thanks Jean! Keep on Truckin' |
Exciting, Exciting EXCITING !! Lenco comes into the Light !!
Congratulations to ALL who have contributed in the Great Experiment, kicked off by Jean oh-so-many years ago ! We have learned many lessons together, through the community of Da Thread/Da Thread II.
I must personally thank Jean for being the Raving Lunatic he is... and for his unswerving conviction to what he believes in. When I stumbled onto Da Thread in early 2004, it seemed this guy was waaaay over the top in expressing the greatness of the idler-wheel drive, and the Lenco design in particular. Talk about blowing out huge gusts of hot air :-)
BUT... I kept reading with interest, and day by day the hyperbole sounded more and more credible. I went from A) highly suspicious of these outlandish claims, to B) questioning my own assumptions of "what's the best TT", to C) believing in the Gospel of The Lenco, to D) voting with my dollars, and acquiring an L75. Quite a leap of faith for a skeptical guy like me. This is the power of the Nantais Prose.
Today I'm thankful I didn't rush into a plinth rebuild... no, it's been the opposite ("Woe is me... Will I EVER get that thing running ?"). The reward for waiting: today, the Monster-Class design details are pretty much understood and
shared freely to all who will listen. Thank you Jean and thank you All, for developing these refinements to the basic "solid plinth" we began with.
A year ago I had the pleasure of sitting in front of Jean's system - my first chance to actually hear what the fuss was all about. The Man is Right. He does not exaggerate in his wild and wonderful descriptions of the portrayal of Music via the Lenco... I heard it for myself... and must concur and support his claims.
As if that audition was not enough, I was even more fortunate to accompany Jean and his Monster Lenco to the Wyetech Listening Room. My (audio) life will never be the same. We were treated to the most effortless, lifelike recreation of live music I have EVER witnessed. Tom Waits - Nighthawks at The Diner... not even a special Mo-Fi pressing, but Jean's bargain bin find.
THEY were not in the room with us... No, we were in the club with THEM. Completely magical... transported to the venue... transcending all the reviewer-cliches you've read a thousand times - there was no "hey listen to the top end sparkle", or "boy, the bass sure flaps your pants" - it was just a thrilling performance happening before us. Totally "natural" in dynamics, from muttered comments between songs, to the band roaring full-tilt. We just HAD to sit through both sides... yup, the complete album - it was that compelling. D'you ever do that with your audiobuddies, or is it the same 3 tracks from the same 3 records ?
Arrestingly, unspeakably impressive. Roger Herbert is one crafty designer... I didn't know electronics could get out of the way like his do, and let the music speak as though through that elusive "straight wire, with gain". Bravo !!
While I can only D R E A M of having all that world-class gear at my personal command, the good news is, the crucial front end source for this amazing lesson is The humble and Mighty Lenco. ("Hey, I'm making one of those right now...") And if it ain't in the source, you can't make it up further down stream.
Thanks again and again and again to the Lenco Brotherhood, for the gift of Knowledge & Friendship. I almost missed this group... it was a random search that dropped me into Da Thread - and curiosity in what the H*ll that Jean Guy was blathering on and on and on about - that made me stick long enough to be converted. Now I'm poised for Everlasting LP Happiness. My L75 project is underway, and with the benefit of all your collective experience, I'll steer clear of many pitfalls.
Three Cheers and Vive la Lenco, Vive la Idler-Wheel!!!
Grant |
Hmmm... and OOPS.
What strange double-post phenomenon is this ? Not my intent to have the message repeated in the thread. Sorry for the inconvenience.
Grant |
Hi Grant: the post Audiogon found so nice, they posted it twice! I'm beginning to wonder if there isn't a bar up in the A'Gon control room ;-). Thanks for stepping forward with corroboration of that amazing experience a while back, offering a window into the Lenco experiences up here in the Great White North (especially white this weekend with an ongoing snowstorm)! Thanks to Oregon too for his unfailing energy, support and enthusiasm!
You're welcome Kravi4ka, and good luck with your project! You're not too far from my yearly summer peregrinations. I hired a lovely Bulgarian singer to work with me in that bar on Rhodes Srajan mentioned, her husband working the front disco bar (mine was more MUSIC-oriented, of course ;-)). They were a great couple, and she got into the work with great spirit. The bar's theme song was The Pink Panther, and somehow, playing that song always turned the flame up high on the party/business. She didn't question it, and whenever things got quiet she would come to me and say "Play the Pink Panther." No sooner the opening bars came on, the doors would burst open an a crowd stream in, like magic, every time. I've since bought the LP, and the music is terrific, and the recording fabulous!
As to making history, the review is another step in my original War to have the Lenco/Idler recognized as the Truly Great and Mighty system it is (the first being Da Thread, made a success and possible by all those intrepid participants over the years), in fact The Best, though a mighty indirect baby step, as it won't be compared with other vinyl spinners, or in a vinyl context, but instead be inserted into an all-digital system, and auditioned by an all-digital Man. A very very serious all-digital system. In fact, a perfect test of my claims of Lencos/idlers and the importance of and performance in speed stability over the years. The Lenco/Idler phenomenon continues to grow and expand due to its, indeed, actual, in-practice, tested and proven, Mightiness. The Lenco, again as developed by all the participants of Da Thread/s over the years (and I have UTTER faith in it) will be undergoing its first baptism by fire!! An interesting experiment, dontcha think? And, perhaps MOST importantly (at least to me), I'll get to sip drinks on the beach on my way to somewhere/something interesting, and on my way FROM somewhere/something interesting :-). Getting back to music, as the Aerosmith song says, "Life's a Road, not a destination" (often featured in that bar :-)). And who knows where on that road the Mighty Lenco will go?
Enjoy your Lencos all, and all the other idlers out there! Time to start testing combos with the Lenco/RS Labs and get to work! |
Hey Grant,
That was fun! And in two-track mono to boot. Your primal skepticism only lends credible weight to the chorus – a mass constrained sandwich in its on right. Not many months back, when the three of us were together, you continued to ask pointed, in-depth questions of Jean about many facets in audio. Of course, our savant host had an answer for just about everything. Lazily, after finding my ears agreeing with all Jean’s other audio recommendations that I’ve been able to try (Petra ICs, Athena budget speakers, V-FET solid state), I’ve found it very economical, just to sit back and reap the benefits on this road to stellar music listening.
But Grant, you’re an excellent and fun writer and this was a treat. Since you’ve made me privy to some pics of your Mighty plinth build, I can see that this is going to be one heck-of-a Lenco.
- Mario |
Greetings Mario, fellow adventurer down the Audio Path and fellow amateur historian/archaeologist. Thanks for the kind words.
Time to address some of the usual misleading and distorted postings out there, provoked by the Preview, and to learn something of the scientific process in the bargain! Part of the reason I believe in the Scientific process, but often have serious doubts as to the Scientists who should be following them (who are often – but not always - to Science what the Enron accountants are to accountancy), is because of their often selective reasoning/consideration of the evidence...favouring of course whatever it is they choose to champion. Sort of like a certain forum’s (you all know which one) recent treatment of the 6moons Preview: the 6moons INTRO, CLEARLY marked as such, is in the PREVIEW section, and so is a PRE-view, not a RE-view. Nevertheless, it is there treated as a RE-view, the better to mock and denigrate it for....not being a Re-view after all. Nothing new here, as that forum has been the home, first of those who attacked any suggestion on my part that the Lenco was a serious ‘table, and now any suggestion that I ever battled there to have the Lencos and idlers taken seriously, that forum now dominated by DIY idler projects (due not only to my battles with what have now become Captain Idlers, but to the activities of two who followed the Home Despot/Lenco forum, Freek and Fred)! Take a look at this, from the early days of the thread:
“02-19-04: Musicus53
Hi, John
I just wanted to let you know that your fame (or in this case, infamy) is rapidly spreading since you've now a subject in the Vinyl Asylum! I thought the post about you was actually laughable, but I had to repond (as "Vinyldork"). I just hope a "deprogrammer" doesn't kidnap me now and convince me that Lencos are crap before I get to do the project! Some great links from bornin and I'm looking forward to the pics.
Don”
The denizens of that same forum (is it something in the water there?) – the one which, as the preceding post makes clear , evidently thought my promotion of the Lenco and idler-wheel drives was to be stopped and was laughable - NOW claims I never conducted the battles there I evidently did, to have the Lencos and the idlers recognized. Let’s have a look at another reference to that same forum for Old Times' sake :-):
“02-20-04: Rich121
Did you not read the posts? They basically repeated what I said in this thread earlier.... These are Lenco owners who posted... I'm talking about the posts on AA that Musicus53 reported. Obviosly, you did a search of AA to dig up the few positive posts, why don't you tell the truth, about the overwealming negative posts? That are from Lenco owners. Most every one that still owns a Lenco, says that it is only useable for old 78's because of the rumble (which you claim is not there!, Which you claim can be eliminated with a massive plinth...) What it amounts to, is your claiming that it will (plinth) defy physics and magically divert the rumble from the platter, to the plinth!!! What a joke!!!! The plinth is not even directly connected to the motor/idler wheel/platter.... it is connected to the plate, then the plate is connected to the motor, motor to idler wheel, to platter WHICH IS WHERE THE RUMBLE ENDS UP!!!”
Now Richard wasn’t lying here, I had to dig long and hard to find ANY positive mentions of the Lencos, because any such mentions were quickly punished by Yahoo-like avalanches of abuse, and they learned to keep their heads low (as on all forums at the time, though not with that Yahoo-like intensity characteristic of that particular forum). Apparently things don’t change, and neither do their ways, three years down the road. Some of the less rabid on that forum should begin to think about cleaning up over there.
For the literate (those who can tell the difference between “Pre” and “Re”), one could also consider Swift’s “Yahoos”, he evidently had these types in mind which existed in his day 300 years ago, as they do in ours: “Several of this cursed brood getting hold of the branches behind, leaped up into the tree; from whence they began to discharge their excrements on my head: however, I escaped pretty well, by sticking close to the stem of the tree, but was almost stifled with the filth, which fell about me on every side.”
To show further examples of this type of selection, they – again Yahoo-like – select my early plinths for mockery and denigration - which I let stand to constructively encourage amateurs to join in and feed the Idler Ranks, and which Srajan selected with no argument from me (thus disproving any ego issues on my part, as I might have asked him to post some of my better efforts: the top Lenco is Willbewills - say Hi! - and the centerpiece is Tom's) – and carefully avoid mentioning or displaying the later plinths which have been up posted under my “system” on Audiogon for months now. Then, following the same utter lack of logic (but a very fine sense of prejudice and pettiness), they charge me with having too large an ego! Not that they get away with it: for while they egg each other on and thus think themselves clever, I receive regular e-mails from frequenters of that forum, informing me of the latest antics of the “court jesters” and “the usual suspects” (and thanks for the info all, but truly, I’d rather not know ;-)).
Any who are interested in witnessing the antics of these Yahoos, or practicers of selective consideration of the evidence, go ye over on that forum, and check out the 6moons thread, and identify them! Then, simply as a spectator sport, watch for their next postings whenever my name – or Lencos – comes up. A very interesting lesson in a certain type of human behaviour, and an excellent example of what I am talking about re. certain scientists' selective consideration of the evidence, and other techniques used over the years, such as: claim a statement which was never made was made (just like deliberately taking a "Preview" and presenting it as a "Review," to then take issue with it), and then attack the statement to discredit the individual! I have seen these tactics – and many more - used in the history of science (of which I am an avid student), and in the 20th century and the 21st century too.
And now, let's get back to Lencos and away from spelling and dictionary lessons, to Mightiness, Hyperbole, and Political Correctness (yes, one of my favourite subjects because one of the biggest problems). Many have accused me of hyperbole (of course) because I make "outrageous statements" with respect to the Lenco, and this, of course, offends the Politically Correct (and provides an excellent handle for certain Yahoos to focus on). But, as Grant so courageously pointed out, the statements are NOT, after all, exaggerations, since they are accurate descriptions of the Reality of the Lenco. Let's look at the question in terms of logic: the Upper Limits of the Lenco have not yet been found. In fact, so far, the Lenco has CLEARLY beaten all comers up to $20K in the Land of Belt-drives (haven`t had tests higher than this...yet, though I am slowly Climbing the Ladder), and even some very Scary Classics like the EMTs (even the BEST of the EMTs). So, given the Upper Limits have not been found, then how is it even possible to hyperbolize?!? Ergo, they are NOT hyperbole.
Dare to Think the Unthinkable you watchers out there: what if I'm right?!? What if, after all, Idler-Wheel systems ARE the Superior System?!? How else to explain the incredible success Lencos and idlers are having out there, despite the over-engineering of many of the current belt-drives, after THREE years. It's not because they suck, uh-uh. Gadzooks! Could I, after all, be right?!? Of course, the Yahoos won't like that one bit, as then some serious amounts of egg would be flowing from their collective faces, so you can bet they will oppose the Unstoppable Lenco Juggernaut (as they already are), in order to avoid the destiny they (NOT me) have carved out for themselves, to be an ugly little footnote in history as....Yahoos.
YOU BET I'm gonna make this review happen, and place my destiny in the hands of the Audio Gods and roll the Audio Dice (I've never heard the phono stage to be used, and don't know which cartridge will be provided, for one).
Though I have often thought to simply abandon the whole Idler/Lenco thing and let the very persistent and tireless Yahoos (what IS their diet?..I gotta get me some) have their "victory" (elimination of me from my own history/activities/achievements, and theft of the same), I also am fundamentally unable to let it happen, and am doomed, dammit (I often wish it weren't so), to battle (though I had hoped, very FAINTLY hoped, knowing what I do about the often ugly history of the development of science - silly me - it would be about evidence and logic). When Bob asked me if he could approach some magazines on my behalf, I told him to go ahead, secure in the knowledge I wouldn't have to take on this burden/pressure (and as the Yahoos demonstrate, it is a burden) as no magazine would touch me with a ten-foot pole. I here take the opportunity to post the relevant parts of the e-mails:
From: Jean Nantais [mailto:ripplefritz@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 5:59 PM
To: Bob Olson
Subject: RE: Riggle VTAF
"Hi Bob,
Yep, pretty busy these days, but I don't think one of my Lencos will ever get reviewed, too much of a threat to the industry."
"Jean,
Geez, 7 or 8 turntables in one year - and I thought I was extravagant moving up to two tone arms! You may well be right that no one in the mainstream audio press would review the Lenco. But if anyone would, it's Srajan Ebaen of 6moons.
Bob"
It turns out Bob was right. It is also damned exciting stuff - this is the stuff of LIFE! (I think I'm gonna faint ;-)) - and we, Lenco followers ALL, owe Bob a big thank you! It turns out he read both Srajan and I exactly right. Had I known that I would have told Bob "NO!", but, here we are, heading into the perhaps-Great Unknown. Feel the adrenaline, Home Despot threaders!! Now, where IS that suntan lotion?!? |
Hi all,
The Green Giant Lenco -- no longer so giant, in comparison to later designs -- that Jean built me, is, with its modest compliment of SMEIII/Shure M97EraIVHE and AT1005mkII/Denon DL103, FANTASTIC. Just fabulous, and every one I play it for flips out with how top to bottom, side to side, micro to macro, whisper to thunder good it is at making music out of tiny bumps on vinyl grooves. I've had it better than a year now, and am amazed everyday, whether it by playing Bach, Bartok, Beatles, Basie, Bluegrass, whatever.
Jean has also always been personally generous, helpful, and friendly to me as well.
Now, is his rhetoric in favor of the Lenco hyperbolic? I am in no position to say. But the evidence so far seems to be that it has beat all comers up to 20k. One would think that if there are counterexamples, then they would be reported (and those reports multiply iterated) by the defenders of the belt drive hegemony. After all, they would be reports of opinion ("I thought my INSERT NAME HERE belt drive system sounded better in this and that way than the Lenco"), and you can't argue with those. (I've never noticed Jean dispute any such claim of personal opinion.) And those who have spent big bucks on belt drive systems, either as desgners, manufacturers or consumers, have lots of interest in making such reports, candidly or otherwise. But you JUST DON'T SEE SUCH REPORTS. That is really something. So maybe his claims to absolute superiority of the Lenco are not hyperbolic.
His packaging his claims in terms of "science" is rather grandiose, to be sure. Here "science" just seems to be good old reasonable judgment, based on weighty evidence rather than hearsay and biased propoganda. I haven't heard of any of Jean's evidence consisting of double blind control group studies of statistically significant numbers with the sort of protocols and quantificational methods that make for SCIENCE in the sense in which it goes beyond just good old decent thinking. But decent thinking is all the reason one needs to take the kinds of evidence Jean adduces -- uncontrolled and anecdotal though it is -- seriously.
This "political correctness" stuff, however, is hooey. Jean seems to equate it with relativism -- the view that good, best and better are entirely in the eyes of the beholder, and not objective matters of fact. Such relativism is dangerous, and at bottom quite unintelligible. But it is neiher the same thing as "political correctness", whatever that is, other than a Limbaugh-esque vacuous slander word, nor what's at the bottom of whatever resistance the Lenco and Jean have encountered on their way to recognition. The resistors I am quit sure believe Hondas (objectively) better than Kias, Ellington (objectively) better than Brittney, Tiger woods (objectively) better than Mike Weir, and love (objectively) better than hate. It's just 35 years out-of-date, relatively cheap, discarded and DIY-ified record playback technology promoted by a, um, charsmatic cyber crank, shall we say, that they don't think is better than new, expensive, nearly universally embraced and lauded, 100% professionally engineered, produced and marketed record playback technology.
They need to have an open mind and an unbiased listen. Given the market forces at work here, that may be more than one can expect in most cases. But that's entirely understandable without appeal to sinister cultural forces of political correctness.
Anyway, I love my Lenco!
Happy listening!
Richard
|
Hi Richard, thanks for your support, as always, and your usual caveats - a HEALTHY form of HONEST debate - only underline your integrity, and the integrity of this thread, as other healthy and fascinating debates have done in the past. Thanks to all those who have debated, like gentleman, using honest evidence, logic and opinion (inevitable as we don't know everything) various issues with me in the past, to keep this thread vibrant and alive. For now, I'll leave the PC-Science and what constitutes acceptable evidence connection for another day, as the bigger Sturm und Drang (German for storm and drama) of this new higher-level exposure will concentrate our energies and attention.
Long ago, the first of my persistent opponents, that first Richard121 - driven like all the others by considerations of ego (i.e. the lowly and base envy) - had written the following over on "that" forum, which has set the template (especially on that particular forum, very interesting, perhaps I should re-analyze the original thread and write a book after all on the subject) for all attacks on me ever since:
"John,
You should go to Audiogon... there is a thread there "Building Hi-end tables cheap at Home Depot" that you will either laugh at, or get pissed, because the guy is convincing people to buy Lenco L75 tt and build a massive plinth (he claims this will cure the rumble problem).
The guy obviously wants center stage, sort of like a cult leader... he will not listen to any logic.
The thread is enormous... so many people are falling for this."
Now yet again: "Posted by rich121 ( A ) on February 18, 2004 at 20:55:43
Make sure that you post your thoughts.... many of these guys reading this, are buying these tt, I did also, and then... researched it, finding out how bad the rumble problem really is.
This guy is a "cult evangelist" wanna be...
Richard"
Now that the Lenco's Mightiness (and this is no hyperbole) is proven, then what of Richard's charge? It shows that what drove me all along was indeed, as I claimed, the Lenco's - and by extension the idlers the Lenco represents - amazing abilities/performance, which I wanted to share with the world (and effect TRUE progress). The charge that ego motivated/motivaTES me doesn't hold water, but it is an easy charge to make, as the stand I took - and proved - has made me somewhat of a public figure (in our small little analogue audiophile world), and the price of "fame" (as far as that goes) is unwarranted criticism.
The charge against me over on that - ho-hum - SAME forum, is that I am taking credit for what is not mine. While it is one thing to not toot one's horn (and one reason so many believe these charges is that I indeed kept silent and let Freek and Fred lead the charge over there and took no credit, so other than a few battles evidence is scarce on the ground), it is entirely another to stand idly by and watch others, driven by their petty ego issues/ambitions, try their damnedest to erase one completely from the record. So let's look at that posting once again and analyse it for what it implies: ""John, You should go to Audiogon... there is a thread there "Building Hi-end tables cheap at Home Depot" that you will either laugh at, or get pissed, because the guy is convincing people to buy Lenco L75 tt and build a massive plinth (he claims this will cure the rumble problem). The guy obviously wants center stage, sort of like a cult leader... he will not listen to any logic.
The thread is enormous... so many people are falling for this."
This shows that the denizens of that forum (who turned an originally enthusiastic participant of the Home Despot thread into a dedicated opponent) barely knew the Lenco/Idler/DIY phenomenon even existed. But thanks to Rich121 and various others who attacked me, and continue to attack me on that forum, the Lenco/Idler/DIY thing caught on and spread.
Long ago I had written a big thanks to that original opponent, who set the template for all the following attacks against me, as every time he attacked me in public forums the e-mails and interest grew due to the free publicity (and people LOVE the controversial, something these less-than-sharp adversaries cannot understand), and so, like fertilizer on plants (think of those Yahoos: "from whence they began to discharge their excrements on my head"), helped the Lenco phenomenon grow and grow. So, once again faced with a deluge of e-mails on the subject due to their attention being drawn to the 6moons article/Lenco phenomenon (and these e-mails ALWAYS represent only a tiny fraction of the actual awareness out there) I would once again like to thank the same crew for the free publicity! Thank You, oh Thank You so very much.
This same fertilizer is also largely responsible for the incredible heights the Lenco has now reached, so I would ask all Lenco participants to thank these Yahoos along with me, as I present a case in point. That SAME Richard (very busy boy) tried to discredit the entire effort on yet another issue, this time the issue of proper geometry. Over on that - YAWN - SAME forum, he had posted that no proper attention was being paid to either tonearm geometry/positioning or VTA (I was just plunking the Rega tonearm in the original hole, due to the Lenco's natural Mightiness it still sounded amazing as Palmnell's - Linn LP12 man - above posts testify). So, in order to save the Lenco/Idler/DIY Project from this attack, I pioneered the cutting off of the corner (which I no longer do, plinths were smaller then) and the creation of the removable armboard method for our DIY plinths. This actually represented a BIG advance in the Lenco performance and phenomenon, as, in addition to the increased sound quality due to proper positioning and VTA, there were no longer any roadblocks to the use of any tonearm anybody wished to try! And so began the Great Tonearm Frenzy as we all began to rediscover and mount a variety of vintage and current tonearms - from Decca Internationals and Maywares through Regas to Grahams, JMWs and various SMEs - to test them out with the Lenco, and also began the Great Cartridge Frenzy as various vintage cartridges were rediscovered and the whole Lenco/Idler/DIY phenomenon became Supercharged.
The same motivation - various forms of attack and unfair criticism - prodded us all to raise and raise the Lenco's performance: Direct Coupling, high mass, deep investigation of the Lenco Guts and how best to restore/tune them, proper lubricants, brilliant and inventive solutions as tey were showcased, and so on. So let us all, I beg you, thank these opponents for this richest of Fertilizers, who through the years - and STILL - motivate us all to reach for the sky. The latest reaching being the shipping of a Mighty Giant Glass-Reinforced, Direct-Coupled Lenco to Cyprus. I Thank You for the free publicity, I Thank You for energizing this thread, I Thank You for the ongoing opportunities for setting the record straight, I Thank You for the energy and for the motivation - the Fertilizer - which keeps this movement and phenomenon growing and growing, to who knows what point/level. Join me all, please in a BIG Thank You!
Now, freshly energized and motivated, time to start planning/actuating/building that emissary of our efforts, that plinth! Hope you're all having as much fun as I am fellow Lenco-ers :-)!! |
Good luck Jean with your preparations for the almighty challenge...having just read Srajan's article in 6 moons, he sounds pretty open to the possibility of the ultimate enlightenment experience.
Ive been doing a few comparisons of my own this evening, prompted by one of my sons asking why I bothered with vinyl, weren't CD's easier?....sat him down next to me...started the same U2 track on CD and vinyl simultaneously-Helter Skelter-turned the volume up and then played him 30 seconds or so of the CD version, then let the mighty Lenco rip into it. As a follow up, played both versions of the guitar intro to Van Diemen's Land. When he heard the Lenco version, he looked at me and a grin spread across his face.....the mighty Lenco bringing through the rich warm textures of the notes, on Cd the sound was tinny, flat and made me want to yawn, the Lenco kept me entranced and enthralled at the beauty of the music.. But then he whipped out his iPod, started playing the film 'A hard day's night' saying "but your Lenco can't do this, can it?". I had to agree with him, but... |
I had my first listen to a mighty Lenco on Saturday, playing my own records on a system that is otherwise foreign to me. I was floored by the HUGE soundstage, fabulous sense of depth and pace, and yes bass response in spades. Rumble? What rumble? As Jean knows, I am putting my money where my mouth is by ordering a table. So now that I am about to join this exclusive club, can I ask if any owners of Lencos out of Jean's shop are using low output moving coil cartridges on their tables? If so, what are the results compared to the same or similar cartridges used on high quality belt-drive tables? Thanks. |
G'day Folks
I don't get this rumble business. Even when I played my totally unmodified L78 after it lay in the garage collecting dust for years and with no oil in the bearing the rumble was not that bad, far less objectionable than the earth loop hum I was getting.
A liberal drop of Mobil 1 full synthetic (the motorbike version) and the rumble was banished never to return.
I mostly listen at very low levels where any background noise is going to be emphasised but I get - nothing. Just a silken, quite gorgeous quiet.
For those interested the rather protracted saga of the Lenco MultiArm Plinth has had its final posting in the All Out Assault forum. Doesn't seem like that much work now that it's finished! Not that I'll be hurrying to do another one - there's some bloody big backloaded horns to build to bring out the most from the mighty Lenco.
Here we go again. |
Jean, great writing and all too true.
As I am putting more miles on my PTPL (Peter's Top Plate Lenco) it continues to amaze, it really is very good!
So far everything that wasn't already great has turned out to be an artefact of something else, not of the PTPL. I have finally ordered a DL103 that I will try as soon as it arrives.
Keep up the good work!
Peter |
Lewn, I am using a LOMC, a Denon DL304 with an stated ouput of 0.18 mv on my L78. It feeds into an Denon SUT and I hear no rumble. My plinth is a layered one but not super heavy. I have not direct coupled but have damped the metal. I have greased the bottom and lightly oiled the sides of the bearing but have not touched the motor. Extraneous bits of metal and plastic have been removed from the workings and the springs have been replaced with elastics. One day I may get to the remaining tweaks. Or maybe not. I am really enjoying the music I get from my system now.
Harry |
Lewm,
You should get terrific results from a low output MC, I've used them exclusively on my Lenco and I highly recommend them, especially the 103. The step-up is important and for that you should try to find some beyer dynamic trasformers (Jensen) they are the prefect ratio for the 103 and it makes for an amzing step up. Do a google on mic transformers as step ups to read up on it, in fact, here is the JE Labs page :
http://members.myactv.net/~je2a3/mic-mcstep-up.htm |
Thanks, Etch and Frankhertz. Don't need no stinkin' step-up, because I just finished modifying my phono stage for more gain, and it's working great driven by my Koetsu Urushi. (Seriously, if I did require a step-up, the Jensen would be my first choice, too.) My motive in asking about LOMCs was simply that I perceived that most folks who have Lencos seemed to be using high-ish output cartridges, and I wondered if there was a reason for avoiding LOMCs. But my generalization was inaccurate, because I've had some private responses that indicate lots of Lenco users are using Denon 103s, and the like, as you two also suggest. Onward and upward. |
I went from using a Denon 103 on a Lenco to a humble Ortofon VMS 20 moving iron type and I found that I did not really lose anything over the Denon.The Denon actually seems overly analytical by comparison as the Ortofon seems to grasp the gist of the music and on some records blows the Denon away.I am greatly enamoured of the moving-iron type of cartridge at the moment and am thinking of trying one of the Grado's. |
Hi Stephanl,
I can vouche for the entire Prestige Grado line short the Woody Platinum (which I haven't had the pleasure of trying). Even the lowly Grado Black is one powerfully lush and musical cartridge. Best bang for the buck - hands down.
However, my love affair with Grado has pressed me to MuMetal my Lenco platter because of induction generated EMF hum. This inadequate shielding was a conscious decision on Joe Grado's part when he chose not to copy Shure's cart grounding along the ground signal path because of "coloration". He was right, in my opinion, but some TT motors do produce a noticeable hum because of it, the venerable Lenco being one of them. Just so you know... (if you don't already).
While you're back checking in, I wanted to ask you a question regarding the innate anti-skate of the Rega 300 tonearm. You were the first person to draw this to my attention, which I confirmed by removing the magnet. Do you suppose this phenomenon is caused by the offset bearing placements?
Thanks,
Mario |
I've been wanting to try moving iron for awhile, maybe I'll give it a go... |
Hi guys,
My little contribution to the Low Output MC topic: I have started using a DL-103 on my L59 with great pleasure but the upgrade virus bit me... so I went for the 103R and it was a real improvement in terms of listening pleasure (I don't even want to enter into precision, tracking ability, etc, terms: PURE PLEASURE!!!) then, I had the opportunity to purchase a 103D and this was once more more joy and happiness!!!Then I purchased an humble Denon AU300-LC step up...That was it!!! I am a happy guy with a simple set up and enjoy the music.
Happy Lenco to all !!! |
Another idea to follow with the 103 is a re-tip by Peter at Soundsmtih or VDH. I got the ruby cantilever on mine and it still sounds like a 103 with a touch more refinement and better imaging. |
Regarding the RB 300 and anti-skate I have found that it usually requires very little in most cases.I align by ear, and the tracking weight dial on the Rega arm is brilliant for finding that sweet-spot,which of course varies every time you have a record playing session.Now there has to be some adjustment to the anti-skate required when your weight is right.It seems to confirm the less than 30% theory postulated by experiment in the late 60's in some way.When you hear it just come in is a very low position on the slider and about always right.I confirmed this by adjusting anti-skate once when I was recording the RIIA signal only and hearing the change quite clearly.I think the bearings on either side of the Rega arm are the same as each other,the RB 250 drifts out as well.I would find out from someone who upgrades the Rega bearings i.e Origin Live.Mark Baker knows all about the Rega arm. |
Ah the Old MM vs MC debate! Reminds me of the early/middling days of Da Thread, and the Great Cartridge and Tonearm Frenzy: signs of health to see it re-appearing here! Myself, overall I'm an MM man, but, certain tonearms do sound excellent with MCs on the Lencos and Garrards. But, in the final analysis, MMs are simply superior to MCs in the difficult-to-pin-down gestalt arena, and if I had to choose, I would have to vote for an MM. Fortunately, I don't have to choose!!
And the "humble" Denon DL-103 goes a loooonnnggg way to narrowing the gap between MMs and MCs at gestalt, and when mounted to a sympathetic tonearm (and it is VERY sensitive to phono preamp/loading, I find that, *generally-speaking*, with active devices it prefers 100 ohms, and with transformers it seems to open up at low impedances, like 3-10 ohms or so...but these are generalizations and final results unpredictable), simply rules at PRaT, which goes some way to making up for the slight shortfall in gestalt.
Ah what a complicated web! The Ortofon Jubilee, when mounted to the JMW 10.5 tonearm, gives THE most evenly balanced and "accurate" tonal balance I have ever heard (the JMW actually pulls this trick off with quite a few high-end MCs, seems to be its characteristic), and it also excels at PRaT and gestalt, though not to the extent of the always-slammin' Denon. But this too is valuable, as perfect tonal balance (AND perfect emphasis/capture of dynamic shadings, another JMW/MC characteristic) allows one to simply sink into the music (as opposed to being physically dragged into it - Kundalini Effect - as with the Denon) and forget about audio.
Though my Decca is always hooked up these days, I'm pining for my MMs, and if I have the time I want to mount my Black Widow or my Mayware (and some others) to Mr. Red and play with my MMs: the fabulous Ortofon M15E Super (which wows everyone without exception, and is the precursor of the rightly-respected and famed VMS series); the Piezo YM-308 MKIIX (which is a state-of-the-art information-retriever, and I have yet to hear it in my new set-up); and of course the various and glorious Grados, which may be the most overall musical cartridges ever made, and which set the standard (especially the Woodies) among ALL cartridges for retrieving air, imaging, and the sonic resonant signatures of acoustic instruments, AND of course the human voice. Plus, they rock, they do PRaT, they do bass, and they have a warmth which once heard, is very difficult to live without. Time, methinks, for some more fun with MMs :-)!! Thanks for inspiring me all!! Have fun with your removable-tonearm Lencos and other idlers!! |
Another idler wheel turntable to look out for. I recently purchased a McCurdy Turntable (pictures at http://www.tamminen.ca/mccurdy/).
The story behind it, as I was told it, is that these turntables were used by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC) from the 50s to the 80s and then were disposed of. Someone took this one home and built a base for it. It is a heavy base although not a layered one. The platter is aluminum and not as heavy as the one on my Lenco. The idler wheel is still supple and the motor is large, heavy and quiet. I cleaned the bearing apparatus and found that the platter spins very smoothly. I removed the old Shure arm which was not in great shape and replaced it with a Sony arm which I believe came from an old Sony PS 2250 turntable. As you can see by the pictures, it took some adjusting to get the geometry correct. I tried a Denon DL103 cartridge but could not get rid of the hum so I installed a Shure M97HE and added a ground wire. It is now quiet and so far, (one evening's listening) it sounds great.
I am going to give it a couple of weeks as is and then consider all the "Lenco Tweaks" for it. When I get into again, I'll take pictures of the motor and the underside of the metal plinth which by the way is a 1/4" thick piece of steel (I think). If anyone has any more information on this turntable, it would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Harry |
I would have to agree about the greatness of the Ortofon cartridges in that VMS series as it really is clearly the best I have heard on the Lenco.The Denon 103 I feel has been slightly(significantly) bettered by the VMS 20E Mk11.A measure of this was the anti-skate for illustration.I don't know how many would have noticed this but I always found the 103 a bit finnickey as to where it wanted it's anti-skate and gave what could be described as different colourations of sound in different positions.The Ortofon is not like this in that you can hear the sound come in and right where it should be(30% about).I was also using pure silver interconnects for the Denon which seemed to demand the swift transients but the Ortofon handles even the Van Den Hul cables,which I thought were too fuzzy in the past.Now I hear what they can do.The balance of the Ortofon is superior.I still like the Denon but why didn't I notice this earlier.MC's are a plot! |
Hi Harry,
That McCurdy sure looks nice and at first blush, it seems to have a few things going for it that might lend itself to be a good candidate for “polishing the rock” to see if it has the potential as another dynamic idler in the rough. In fact, I was ogling one of these last year, but let it slip away.
What attracted me was that expansive flat top plate and how well it would afford vast real estate for attachment and direct coupling to a mass constrained plinth in one swoop. Now that I’ve seen your photos, I also like what I see in that highly polished steel motor spindle. This is almost certainly a leg up on the Rek-O-Kuts and Prestos rim-drives with their bakelite spindles which seem to be prone to a slightly fibrous surface upon wearing.
Nevertheless, you’ll need to be open to other potential difficulties like motor isolation, noisy bearing, etc.. In my search yesterday on this turntable I could not turn up anything definitive on it – other than some “idler” chatter from former studio DJs who referred to the McCurdy as “The Master Rumbler”. But we also know that similar digs were said about the Lenco, and those proved of little consequence to where we are today.
So Harry, you may have to pioneer this one on your own for the betterment of the idler community.
But since you have it up on stilts, you might consider testing with a quiet LP (string quartet?) and reaching under and manually disengaging the idler from the platter rim and listen for the difference in unwanted signal coming out of your speakers. A stethoscope may also be in order for this new patient.
- Mario
|
Since helping Jean connect with Srajan, I've been spending so much time listening to records on the Lenco that I'm not keeping up with Da Thread! But I want to put in my 2-bits on a week-old topic - how low-output moving coil cartridges work on the Lenco. In a word: Marvelously. When Jean mounted a Dennon DL-103 on my SME-V arm, he discovered the "Kundalini Effect" - a great name for the psychological response to a sound that is so extraordinarily dynamic that it's thrilling. Mounting my Koetsu Rosewood Signature on the Lenco/SME-V produces the "Ecstacy Effect" - the subtlety and romantic bloom nortmally associated with Koetsus but also a sense of power and pace that's not what people people associate with Koetsu. I figure if the Lenco works this well at these two extremes - big bold Dennon and sweet suble Koetsu - it must work well with any lower output MC. |
Hi Harry
That turntable has a wonderful utilitarian look to it.
I also have a Sony 2250 tone arm (that will end up on one of my Lencos) and have absolutely no information on it. Can I ask what pivot to spindle distance you mounted it at?
Paul |
Hi Harry, I too once had a chance to get my hands on a McCurdy Idler, very nicely-built (under contract I believe to another company), but passed on it as it was going for too high a price, and I was still sitting on my nice Rek-o-Kut Rondine I haven't had time to get around to yet. Btw, my Rondine has a small idler-wheel and a metal motor pulley, so I expect to get it to sing rather well and silently (I hope: rubber grommets instead of springs). I did hear a big Rek-o-Kut with the giant puck and plastic pulley, and in mono it was glorious and silent (in mono there is no rumble). So there is a use for these, provided you use them for 78s and other true mono pressings, don't lose hope for these amazing machines, as in mono they have all the slam, bass, detail and perfection of speed one hears with a Lenco! Good news for those who spend big bucks on state of the art mono MCs, they should consider these as well as, of course, the Mighty Lencos.
Thanks for putting your two cents in Bob: I'd like to add that several of those who have abandoned their Uber-Pricey belt-drives in favour of Mighty Lencos are using absolutely top-of-the-line MCs and tonearms most of us can only dream about, and these in full-range systems: there is no limit yet found to the Lenco's abilities, which is utterly silent when properly restored and rebuilt.
The Mighty Lenco continues to conquer, continues to prove that the Idler is - in spite of those politically correct pundits (and Yahoos ;-)) who want to pretend/assume all systems are equal in the absence of actual testing so as to "please" everybody and assume a fraudulent "wisdom" - quite simply the superior system! Once again it is about speed stability, and once again, at speed stability the belt-drive is the worst of the three solutions, which is precisely why - apart from materialism gone mad - they have reached the $100K level. The idler, on the other hand, which was designed and created FROM ITS INCEPTION to combat stylus force drag (at its inception cartridges tracked at 10 grams), is the BEST of the three systems.
To recap the logic: if it takes $100K to market a small motor driving a rubber band driving a platter to realize vinyl's potential (a VERY iffy proposition: we haven't compared these to Giant Direct Coupled Lencos...yet :-)), then the system is inferior. A good idler-wheel drive, on the other hand, can reach and exceed this performance level (as will become clear with time, Yahoos notwithstanding) for much smaller outlay: concentrate on the motor, on the idler-wheel, on a simple balanced platter and decent main bearing, and let a simple recipe of a non-resonant mass do the rest (i.e. NAIL IT to the ground so ALL the motor's energies drive the platter, and absorb noise). This is a MUCH more effective way of counteracting the much-more-serious-than-formerly-thought phenomenon of stylus force drag (which is why belt-drives in the $50K-$100K league are now common). Bringing back an old example: it's as if a group were proclaiming the superiority of steam-driven cars over combustion engine cars, but in order to make a steam-driven car which will match a combustion engine car for speed, it would have to be 100 feet long, weigh 100 tons, and cost $100 million dollars.
Anyway, there are more glorious conquests coming on the horizon, and the [possible] review, and likely more reviews and more conquests after that (each leading to the other). The Idler Phenomenon is growing, precisely BECAUSE it is superior, more and more are being swayed by the logic, and word is spreading in the audio underground and behind the scenes (as well as the articles which are growing in number), via those who have Mighty Lencos . This is a matter of science, logic, engineering and CHALLENGE: an exciting enterprise, don't let the Yahoos poison this endeavour, as Yahoos do (their reason for being)!! More conquests of very serious 'tables by Lencos on the horizon in addition to the review, and you bet I'll post them soon as they come in :-)!! Have fun with your idlers all! |
A Rek-O-Kut Rondine with a metal motor pulley/spindle? Jean, you certainly live a charmed life! The audio Gods atop Mount Idler certainly seem to take a shine to you. I won't be suprised if some day you crack open a newly arrived Lenco and discover a golden idler wheel.
I thought we had the same Rondines. Mine has no model designation - but has the huge chrome selector knob, faux faceted ruby run indicator and red script lettering. Is yours the B-12? |
I have now joined the multi Lenco club cause I have just scored my second GL-75,in pretty good working condition with the original arm and all bits.The nylatron plate has the tiny dimple which is definitely deliberate and metal idler,spring,idler-arm,strobe are all excellent.Still seems to be an original model that has nothing done to it since it was bought.The cartridge looks as though it's the Goldring that came with the table.Pretty clean inside.It definitely needs a clean and lube though as the bearing is dry.All this for the grand sum of $97.00.Not bad. |
Paul, the pivot to spindle distance is 223 mm. I used the template from EnjoyTheMusic.com to set the null points. That is why the arm board looks the way it does. I drilled out the hole and adjusted the position of the arm board. Eventually after a trial period I will produce a better looking armboard or will go the route of building a layered plinth. So far I am not hearing any rumble at normal listening levels even with my ear right up to the speaker.
Mario, the turntable is actually mounted on large closed box. My pictures give the wrong impression. So I cannot disengage the idler wheel from the bottom. The motor/idler wheel does make more noise when standing up close to the turntable than my Lenco. This probably because of the large box which acts like an resonator. I have not damped anything yet. That noise does not seem to show up through the speakers.
Thanks for the interest and Jean, thanks for the inspiration for all things idler.
Harry |
Hi Harry
Looking at the arm it seemed about 10mm longer than the average Grace, Acos, etc., length of 222mm so I guessed it was going to be about 232mm (plus or minus a couple of millimetres). Have you measured the spindle to pivot distance since you adjusted the arm board? It looks like you have about a 10mm gap there.
Paul |
