So if we made a experiment where a group of seasoned audiophiles had to choose which speaker is best over all, 6 brands all hidden behinda curtain. 5 top dawgs in the xover box low sens design and 1 of the high sens PS design. How do you think the results will come out? But we will not tell the group what speakers are behind the curtains, They will have no idea 1 of the speakers is Point Source. How do you think the, or lets say which 1 speaker do you think would come out on top? No lets do this, Lets give the group a list of 5 speaker brands, Walsh, Wilson, Tannoy, and 2 others which are very popular, like Joseph with the Seas. and 1 more, The mystery speaker is not listed, so they have no idea what speaker it is. The ? speaker is the high sens Point Source. Now Richard Gray hosts this *guess which speaker event* as he is a master of these types of gimmicks and has seasoned audiophiles fooled every single time. Which speaker do you think will make top of the list in results?? I know. The Mystery Speaker. Then Richard pulls the curtain and reveals the winner. SURPRISEE Got ya The Hifi Guy
Why are some of us so frightened of the OPs interesting challenge?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I understand that many old faithful audiophiles just can not let go the old xover/box designs. Its been a part of our lives these past decades, its worked for me, so why the need to change. Trust me a high sens new tech driver will present music completely, totally different from what your past experiences have told you is *the right way, the only way* to isten to music. I'v since jumped ship on xovers in midrange. One you experienced a full range in mids, you'll never want to go back to box things. FR speakers somehow threaten to turn their audiophile world upside down. Look back in Chicago, 1929, some USA lab figured out how to present music witha Field Coil, which offer mids that surpass anything comming out of Seas and scanspeak's lab. All due to the higher sensitivty, Why should we continue to ignore the old tech which was indeed successful, but long negleced, and now has risen from the dead in a New 21st C technology??? Beats me why the fear. Just embrace it.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with a blind test. The only variable can be the speaker playing. It is much harder than lining up speakers behind a curtain and playing them one after another. The volume level must be matched, the speakers placed in the same position, and the listener position controlled. There are other variables to control as well. Otherwise, the "test" is nothing more than a gimmick, a stunt, or a prank as the OP has so correctly called it previously in this thread. The sort of test described in the OP proves absolutely nothing.
He's just a single driver fan boy who sounds like he bought a pair and wants everyone to agree with his purchase, which he's having grave doubts about.
Is buyers remorse the opposite of expectation bias, and usually the outcome?
Also, it's sad to see all the advocates of blind listening tests come out of the woodwork, on command, after all the discussions disproving the efficacy of it. Zombies.
CD318, "Cognitive Dissonance"? Really? Do you even know what that really means or did you look that one up in your Thesaurus? Is that where the CD handle comes from? "Preconceptions"?
Lighten up, man! This is supposed to be fun! I've got absolutely nothing against blind-testing and I don't think most folks, including audiophiles, do. I'd love to be able to do that sort of thing with audiophile components or just in general! It would be fun and interesting to read about tests like this with all sorts of audiophile equipment.
This might end up getting filed under ’Audiophiles and their fear of the blind listening test.’
Somehow a gossamer thin curtain, or a blindfold, or even turning off the lights seems to induce a sense of mild panic amongst certain folk that has them running for more substantial cover.
Cognitive dissonance?
Surely anyone that goes to a dealer to audition a loudspeaker could only benefit from having to having to rely entirely upon their ears?
Why are the eyes such an important crutch to some when judging sonics?
Why are some of us so frightened of the OPs interesting challenge?
This is no pushover test, there’s some seriously big hitters amongst the contenders suggested ("Walsh, Wilson, Tannoy, and 2 others which are very popular, like Joseph with the Seas and 1 more")
So are Voxativ drivers really that good?
Is Richard Gray a charlatan, or an iconoclast or even a dangerous threat?
If so, then to whom?
Why don’t we at least try to find out some of the answers?
Surely we may have nothing to lose here but our preconceptions?
Mozartfan, I love the idea! My understanding is that Revel does something similar at their headquarters in California. However, I would recommend the following: ditch the curtain idea and actually blindfold all of the seasoned audiophile judges involved; have them all submit to audiological testing to control for hearing acuity; control for the sweet spot and vary that to test for off-axis performance of all of the speakers involved and hire a pit crew that can change those speakers out as fast as an Indianapolis 500 pit crew can change tires on those Indy cars. That would offer a bit better control or objectivity. However, there is still the factor of controlling for best component matching and room acoustics variables. The only way I can think of, of going about something like that would be to do all of the above and, then, put the judges on some sort of moveable floor that can be transported from optimized system & room to another. Now, how would you control for individual music preferences? Different strokes for different folks. Variety is the spice of life!
A real waste of time. Is the room the right size for all these speakers to perform properly. Each pair of speakers will need to be set up properly. An example Klipsch K-Horns need to be in the corners. Speakers are all flawed and need special attention on how to display them. What needs to be done is to have one pair of speakers at a time properly setup and then make the evaluation. Lining them up behind a curtain side by side is a dumb idea. By the way who the hell is Richard Gray. He needs to get a life.
@mozartfan Anyone who has plugged earphones into a system that contains a Dynaco 70 amp and thinks it is an Audio Research amp is clearly deaf.
I have, and you can modify the Dynaco 70 any way you want and I guarantee you anyone can tell the difference between it and an Audio Research product.
In fact, I did just that in 1976 with an AR Dual 51 and a Dynaco 70 and a pair of STAX headphones. (I actually did that with every piece of gear in the shop as the the STAX, while amazingly bright and harsh, were almost as revealing as the Sennheiser's of the day, which I also listened to this way.)
It was all part of my education as a young, know-it-all dealer (HA!), which included playing my Strat and Precision and Bundy cornet and other instruments live and then listening to recordings through every piece of gear in the shop.
This took me many months and many repeats, but I finally learned what reproduced sound could be and what it was not.
Tricks like blind A-B things are just tricks. As we proved over and over, and was supported by pretty much every "audio guru" of the time, there is really no way to do scientific A-B testing due to the differences in all the items in the circuit. Best to just take some stuff home TO YOUR ROOM and listen there to find what YOU like IN YOUR ROOM rather than pay attention to all the advertising and "measurements."
I was a successful high-end dealer because I not only educated myself, but also enabled my clients to pick WHAT THEY LIKED rather than what I knew was more accurate.
To this day, ANYONE who does not audition an item IN THEIR ROOM may make an error in judgement that they will regret. We all like different things or there would only be one manufacturer of each part of the music reproduction system, right?
Again, an individual's central and peripheral auditory system is the largest variable in any such test
My tech geek believes audiophiles at least most, need their hearing tested, It was only when I had the Seas Millennium tweet on one channel a point source on the other channel, fliped back and forth did I make the realiztion dome tweeters are dinasuars, The Millennium completely totally rolls off the highs, so whats left are the mids, which sound like a wet blanket has been thrown over the speaker.
No one really knows just how bad their speakers perform/sound until they compare them to a quality high sensitivity speaker. Til then we all think the world of our speakers. Troel's speakers, being the worlds best, can't match a single high sens driver, not from say 1khz-12khz. As I say I have no expectations a high sens single driver will be the Be All End All. I already have bass and tweeter. I only need the most critical driver, midrange. The only driver that I know which exists that can voice high fidelty for full orchestra is a high sens Full Range, This has been my mantra past 6 months. Each day this realiztion becomes more clear and focused. If the new tech is avaliable at a very affordable price where anyone is able to access. Why reject it?? Makes no sense. I've been searching off/on past 40 years for a high fidelity speaker. And finally my research has paid off. If you don't seek, you'll never find. Its just not going to drop out the sky. And I should thank a few here , mentioning the new Full Range drivers. This design is not popular here On Audiogon, I accept that. As to the whys, I have no clue. Old dogs can't learn new tricks.
So what we know is that he is proposing a gimmick, a stunt, or a prank. Seems pretty definitive that is just a side show and not anything resembling a legitimate test.
Do you know about genetic and non-genetic variation among individuals? This variability requires a much larger sample size to produce any meaningful outcome.
Again, an individual's central and peripheral auditory system is the largest variable in any such test - something that many engineers apparently will never understand. It may be that Elon Musk's Neuralink(R) will provide a direct link between amplifier output and medial orbitofrontal cortex.
And once you get any of the 5 speakers home, it will sound different in your room. The test is pointless. The true test is how the speaker will sound in your own room.
I've been under the impression that 'blind tests' are truly That....one goes into the routine with minimal knowledge of what items are being compared, with the exception of one 'given' item. In this purposed scenario: an amp, the 'common element'....
One can 'get obsessive', and argue "Well, what's 'upstream of said amp?", but since the object is speakers...define the 'norm' and move on...
NO list of speakers. Screw that. That skews the responses from Sample One. Stunts like an unknown used on multiple 'unknowns' R. Gray apparently pulled are flawed....'Carney tricks', pulled on the 'marks'....
Everything should be 'known', except for 'X', to test for 'X'. Even then, 'X' needs to be 'rated' over the variables sought...for speakers, define what's being sought to prove, illuminate, define....etc.
A pointless exercise, otherwise...
Millers' movie clip demonstrates such....a stupid movie, overall, but apt...
tomic6018,315 posts06-24-2021 9:46pmI think it’s a design of experiment sobriety test… how about we blindfold test between 6 pairs of vixatives, or whatever…
Yeah We could do some AER's, and Vox's Neo magnets + their Field Coils,, back in the 70's we had a local shop which had a room packed with speakers, i chose the Philips 2 way, High Fidelity, Wsh I had gone with the 3 way. Next to the Thors they sounded anemic,. The Thors sounded anemic next to various cheap chinese *full range/point source*,,and so its likea shootout, Last speaker standing wins. Yeah WE could do that. We test, judge and kick out the losers, til we get down to the final shootout. We all have to come to a consenus. Midrange, testing based only on midrange fq.s not bass, nor highs. I can get high fidelity in those fq's with no problem, Lots of good choices. Its the midrange we are judging. If you look at the fq chart for the Vox, its flat and no harsh peaks and valleys. = You get all the music, with no distortion, Troels stays busy trying to tame the midrange with all sorts of xover components YUCKKKK, can't stand xovers in midrange,. I am not going to purcahse the Vox for bass/highs, If they are there, well its a bonus. I am employing the high sens only for midrange, 1200hz=-10k. From what I've read this area is where this driver really shines. So finally my dream sound is not long off, Been searching some 40 years. Its was only last year that i was made aware of what these Point Source are all about. The Ebay seller wrote back on one of my many Q's **ohh no my speakers are not copies of Fostex or Lowther, we are cloning The Voxativ*. huh? Whats that? He went on to say, *My Top speaker is like 80% what a Vox is**,,, I thought,, no must be at least 90%*. Its most likely 80%, , china can not copy that technology. Sure his top line are only $500, so if your budget is tight, its good deal. But its not what I am after. I am looking for The Real Deal.
I'm not sure if this is close to what the OP is referring to, but acoustic engineer, Floyd Toole has already performed blind tests at the Harman facilities in the LA area.
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