@misc-audio I hear you. I can’t stand scammers (I toned down the language). If anything even remotely feels like a scam don’t go near it. Maybe a new term? "A soft buy?"
I think I’ve been done with 3 "hard sells" - me buying stuff. A kitchen reno (which is actually ok/good), a car (no surprise there), and acoustic treatment (not what I have now).
Each time the hard sell was different - hopefully I recognise it next time?
It seems the hard sell play is mostly buy it now to get a discount - there is usually a need, or urgency to to pay sooner.
A soft buy - pretty much what you described.
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New scam you need to share with all family members. A small token gift or envelope arrives. You open it to see a QR code. It tells you to scan code. Upon doing that you just dumped the entire contents of your phone into the scammers computer.
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I recently sold a $3K used streamer to a fellow audiophile. It started out on the forum but then I got an email from him because he was out of the US and couldn’t get the forum to load. At first I didn’t realize it was the same guy so I was treating this communication as a possilble scammer.
He made an offer, I countered, he countered, and we settled on a price. His sensitivity to price made me think it was not a scammer. He sent me his shipping info to his work address, in Florida, I asked why he didn’t contact me on the forum and that is when he explained he did and was having trouble outside the country.
Making sense but still not fully making me comfortable. Then he called me and we talked a while about our systems and details about various streamers and I realized he was indeed an audiophile.
Then he tried to send zelle and it didn’t go through. We waited a day. I was wondering if now that he had my confidence, he was going to try to get me to honor some sketchy payment method. Then we had a day of silence as he traveled back to the US.
The next day we started texting. BofA was saying that I needed to enroll my number. I sent him a screenshot of part of my Zelle page showing that my number was indeed enrolled (making sure not to have any confidential info on it) and he immediately realized he had made a typo sending the zelle payment on his phone. He fixed it and I had the payment, in irreversible funds, in minutes.
I tell this story to show some of the perhaps-not-red-but-yellow flags that can pop up, how you need to be aware of them but be aware of things that are inconsistent with a scam as well. In the end, I met a good guy and fellow member of our audiophile group.
Jerry
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A phone call goes a long way with me when closing the deal. Not fool proof, but you’ll usually know.
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@oddiofyl -- It stuns and flabbergasts me that in today's "Scamner Society", there are still people who would scan a QR Code from some random letter they received. Anybody that has elderly parents with smartphones should go through and remove any apps that their parents could mistakenly use causing trouble.
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If Paypal’s fees were not so insane, as well as, not to be so quick to dismiss a seller’s defense when disputing a bogus claim from a scammer, maybe they’re wouldn’t be so many issues.
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Indeed skiznfliz, PayPal fees are not cool.
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The scammers are getting more and more sophisticated. Around here the latest scam is a text that looks like it’s coming from EZ Pass that you have an unpaid toll charge. You have to look closely that the link isn’t exactly the same as the real vendor. In addition the cell number it comes from is from outside the US. Selling and buying online is also getting more involved and requires more scrutiny.
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@winerocks ,
How did you respond to them?
You didn’t mention that part.
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@carlsbad2
I recently sold a $3K used streamer to a fellow audiophile. It started out on the forum but then I got an email from him because he was out of the US and couldn’t get the forum to load.
I thought it would be interesting to see your buyer's feedback but your feedback shows no transactions ever. I guess after the buyer emailed you from your contact info provided by A'gon the remaining transaction was completely off A'gon?
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I ended the discussion (it ended itself) by telling him I would only accept payment through a platform that protected me as a seller, and him as a buyer. No response after that. A part inside of me wants to believe it was a legitimate intent to purchase.
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No matter what site you are using for buying or selling, unless the other party has at least 3+ transactions...and one of them near the dollar figure you are considering...then DON'T take the chance..and if you do, its on you.
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@winerocks , Thanks.
@snapsc , I disagree. Everyone has to start with their first purchase.
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@jetter my feedback will always be zero. check for the same name elsewhere. You can figure it out pretty easily.
Having perfect feedback is important. I've said for decades that a man only has one reputation. It takes years to build it and only one bad deal to tarnish it. Back when I had an ebay coin business I had perfect feedback over tens of thousands of transactions but had to bend over backwards a few times.
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Hard RULE #1: A Phone conversation prior to closing the deal. It's REAL easy to find out if the other party knows and understands the item at issue.
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@carlsbad2
My bad, I assumed that you were referring to this forum when you wrote
I recently sold a $3K used streamer to a fellow audiophile. It started out on the forum
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@jetter you assumed, but not wanting to make waves, I was purposely vague.
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Yep ….. . they DO walk among us,
I use CAM and USAM with good results, but the low-lifes need to be excised there too.., All the major audio forums have their incidences.
It’s a common sense thing to hedge against the nuisance bottom-feeders.
(1) In God we trust….. everybody else pays cash.
Up here in Canada, we have our nation-wide major banks in a linked robust and secure banking system that makes EFT cash transfers a fast and ultra-simple bank account-to-bank account point & click instant fundstransfer….EZPZ.
(2) Cross-border / international deals are best served for me using PayPay and absorbing its fees as a relative accepted cost of insurance burden.
(3) If ,,,,absence of forum prior good positive feedback, and absence of priorforum participation postings; or recent new member sign-up profiles is an added harbinger for risk management caution, All responses to my ads on CAM are restricted to card-carrying members only,
(4) Regardless …. If buyers or sellers suddenly introduce kitschy new requests to do the deal ….then it’s a fast sayonara. If they press their BS any further, its a profane slang pejorative derived from Genesis 9:7 and a quick blocking out….full stop.
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@akg_ca I agree that these low lifes do walk among us and never is it ever more prevalent than in social media dating websites. I have had good luck with a variety of transactions thru paypal and fleabay, though I havent bought anything thru ebay in a long time. I have found that most things available on ebay can be bought elsewhere less expensively. How to ensure your transaction is truly secure is nearly impossible. I try to stick to known businesses with a long track record of safe transactions. THough changes to the way outfits like Amazon associate with their suppliers is beginning to impact my level of trust in even these established businesses. It is a scary thing... bricks and mortar places are disappearing and online outlets are becoming less reliable, so what is left is fleamarkets I guess and totally cash transactions. Or at least that is the trend...
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Had this happen to me the next day after listing some speakers on here. Someone reached out to me and asked me to text or call them to discuss. I have paid upfront for the add so no loss of commission for either party. The person and I discussed a lower price. They would send me a certified check and I said I would arrange for shipping and palletize them, based on their area code. Going back and forth with UPS to establish a price and came close, letting the buyer know that it was slightly above my listed cost based on research but would be willing to eat the difference of about $60.00. So I asked for their zip and they would NOT give me anything...name, address, nothing. Of course they had my phone number and address now. And said I didn't need their address since they were sending a driver with their company to pick the pallet up🤔. Wow, this must be a company or something. Turns out AGON and I had a discussion about it and this is a known scam. Once you get the money in your bank and the item is picked up by their service it's retracted from your account...and it's now a theft scam, and your item is gone. So, I cancelled the deal, blocked them and done😩.
Thanks for having my back AGON!
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Had this happen to me the next day after listing some speakers on here. Someone reached out to me and asked me to text or call them to discuss. I have paid upfront for the add so no loss of commission for either party. The person and I discussed a lower price. They would send me a certified check and I said I would arrange for shipping and palletize them, based on their area code. Going back and forth with UPS to establish a price and came close, letting the buyer know that it was slightly above my listed cost based on research but would be willing to eat the difference of about $60.00. So I asked for their zip and they would NOT give me anything...name, address, nothing. Of course they had my phone number and address now. And said I didn't need their address since they were sending a driver with their company to pick the pallet up🤔. Wow, this must be a company or something. Turns out AGON and I had a discussion about it and this is a known scam. Once you get the money in your bank and the item is picked up by their service it's retracted from your account...and it's now a theft scam, and your item is gone. So, I cancelled the deal, blocked them and done😩.
Thanks for having my back AGON!
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If I feel someone is sketchy, I’ll only take zelle or pp friends and family. Take it or leave it. If they look at my feedback, I’m completely trustworthy. They, on the other hand, have to prove they’re honest. I get lots of offers overseas and this is the only way I’ll sell to them. I’m completely covered. They usually don’t respond after I lay down my guidelines and I could care less. Stuff sells, it just takes patience and good negotiations with honest people.
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@cohicks4 good catch, and good thing you caught it before you lost any money or equipment.
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@mickeyb -1 Never purchase from Paypal Family/Friends only!!! Realize you have the junk gear desperately trying to dump. Will only deal with Brick/Mortar dealears when this type of attitude exists. Buyers hold the Ace card!!!
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Dayglow, this is with out of country buyers. I also pay through Zelle and pp friends and family with sellers that have great feedback. Never been scammed. They’ve all been complete gentleman. I’ve done at least 20k this way. Buyers only hold the ace card if you’re desperate to sell which I never am.
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@cohicks4
Turns out AGON and I had a discussion about it and this is a known scam. Once you get the money in your bank and the item is picked up by their service it’s retracted from your account...and it’s now a theft scam
Interesting, I'm curious how the buyer can gain access and retract money from your account?
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Funny in this thread: sellers will take nothing but zelle, pp friends and family, cash and buyers say they will never pay with zelle, pp friends and family, cash....both think they are right.
My take: as both a buyer and a seller, I have never made a significant audio sale or purhase that wasn't done with a cash equivalent. No fees. I sent over $10K cash equivalent for a DAC once to a guy I met on ebay. this was after we did a lot of interacting and I was sure he was legit.
Jerry
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Another TIP...
When considering a private-party purchase, I ask the seller to provide the items SERIAL NUMBER, when applicable.
Scammers hate this question because it allows potential buyers to verify the item is REAL, and usually, what retailer the item was originally shipped to for sale.
I always call the manufacturer and/or the retailer to confirm the item's identity. As a bonus, the manufacturer usually tells me which, if any, upgrades are appropriate.
Just this week, a I was looking at a potential upgrade. The seller refused to forward the preamp's serial number. He also insisted that payment be via direct deposit. Bothe are Red Flags for me...
I hope this this is useful...
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Buyers should only purchase when they have some type of financial protection. Trusting an unknown person does not elevate your human status. FWIW used audio gear is a dime a dozen that's why it sells for 1/3 retail.
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I have only bought one second hand piece of gear from a private seller in my life, and for that we went COD. Is COD still a viable option?
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If someone sends you money VIA EFT, Wire etc. You need to wait 48+ hours after the money hits your bank so they cannot call it back. I had an aerospace company and a customer once sent us $32k VIA EFT in error. We actually caught it on our end. Never send the money back! Wait for it to completely close then send them the money. Ask your bank. The girl in the customers acct dept was livid! Tough luck lady, it was your error. Send them the money and they recall the funds and then WE would have been out the $32k. -John
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I tried to sell a lof of things on facebook market. Every scammer had one thing in common, they repeated the same "you can trust me", "you should believe me", "I am out of town but" lines. I would always ask: has it ever worked?
And then I tried to buy a used washing machine on craigslist and the seller called me a fraud when I asked if I can pay with venmo or zelle or she’d prefer cash.
I don’t know if this is how evolution had intended to work or it’s taking a pass on humanity?
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To bad you can’t give a phone number here to try protect yourself with a phone call.
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@carlsbad2 aging eyes, small screens and large fingers on the part of the buyer.
I agree, you can never be too careful.
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Some great tips here! I grew up in a time where thieves broke into houses, cars, and businesses. I struggle with all the current modes of thievery and deceit, and struggle even more with the seemingly endless quantity of such people. I have been taken a couple of times, most recently someone managed to wiggle into a private Band group (app) for my kids' swim team parents. Someone posed as a parent with two Taylor Swift tickets...and I bit. There were a couple of signs, some of which are mentioned above, but I figured it was a private group of honest-ish people...I serve on the Board of Directors for the team, and know most of the parents. I lost some money, learned a lesson, and had to let my wife, daughter and her best friend know that it was all a scam, and they would not be able to see Tay-Tay.
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the amazing part is how easy it to charge you once you give a vendor your credit card. As if you gave them access to your house hold budget, your hard earned money.
- UPS regularly charges after I pay for the shipment - extra fees with various excuses - e.g. shipment required special handling (a smal 10lbs simple box?)
- pest control company - comes out unscheduled when nobody is home and posts charges
- cable/internet company - extra charges specifically not discussed.
- Netflix - login from who knows where, when
- ...
pay attention, it's almost a part time jobs these days....
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@winerocks ,
I'm sure it hurt more to disappoint them than to lose the money.
That just sucks all around. Karma will get’em! It may take a while, but the bill always comes due.
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@immatthewj ,
"I have only bought one second hand piece of gear from a private seller in my life, and for that we went COD. Is COD still a viable option?"
C.O.D?! Didn’t that predate electricity? What did you buy, a new harness for your oxen?
Follow up question; What were your thoughts on the Pony Express?😀
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I bought some high end amps on another audio forum. Pics and description were all great. When they arrived, one was dead. Seller stated it was working which is strange since it was missing an internal fuse (which when replaced would blow right away).
Sent to OEM for repair and diagnostics (at my cost). I was not happy.
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@ervikingo ,
Did you first try to resolve it with the seller? What was the outcome?
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@thecarpathian I did. Spoke on the phone and he denied all issues. Did a facetime call to show the problem and he blamed the courier.
I can't see UPS opening up an amp and putting an inline fuse holder to bypass the exterior holder.... That was only on one of them, the other one was stock.
I have had great experiences as a buyer and a seller of audio and car racing related parts and vehicles.
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Hope you thumped him with some serious negative feedback.
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@thecarpathian , it was a pair of ARC VTM120s. This was back in the late ’90s when people used to advertise used gear in the classified section in back of Stereophile. The deal went okay, but I guess the potential for fraud exists there as well. I wasn’t the one who was home when the boxes were delivered via usps, so the seller could have easily shipped something besides what I wanted. And thinking about it, seeing as how a money order was used as payment, I wouldn’t have had any recourse at all for a refund, unlike the possibility that exists with a credit card.
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A dealer in my area makes high end custom tube amps, many employing very valuable vintage parts. Recently, I saw a listing of Western Electric 171C output transformers, a part he frequently uses, at a very nice price. The seller claims that he pulled the transformers from Western Electric 124 amps. When my dealer asked whether he would allow a return if the part turned out not to be genuine, he was told that there was no assurance that the part was genuine (how could it be otherwise if it was pulled from a 124 amp?). My dealer also asked, and got no response to the question of why would someone pull the transformers to sell them separately from an amp that would sell for ten times the price he was asking for the transformers. This dealer has nerves of steel when it comes to buying parts. He recently bought a pair of input transformers for a custom build that cost $10k for the pair; it came from Japan so he felt more confident about it being genuine than a similar pair offered from a Chinese source.
As a seller, he often gets scammed by buyers. A common scam involves a sale of vintage tubes. The buyer claims that the tubes that he sent are defective and insists on returning the tubes for a refund. When the tubes come back, they are not the same tubes that were sent.
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...but. sometimes......*grits gums so hard they squeak*
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I have purchased 3 items at an online audio site and recently made my first sale. Not having feedback makes one hesitate and it takes time to get established, particularly if one does not buy/sell alot of items.
Next I will be selling my larger integrated and asking over a grand. It will be relatively low priced compared with others but still its a chunk that could attract scammers, low ballers, etc.
I sell media on the A/zon platform and usually have had good experiences with an occasional blip: refunds/returns/undeliverables but there have been a few scams. I learned my lesson and will not ship to certain individuals, just cancel the order.
Hasn't affected my feedback which indicates they intentionally scammed me. A few times someone returns a different item than the one received, financially it wasn't worth the trouble but I do report them to A.
The world we live in.
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When I was a Audio dealer Eve way back in 2000 in the U.K at the time I was getting bogus checks from Africa,
I even got burned for $12k after Barclays Bank said it was good , come to find out
someone working in NY city copied a wealthy persons credit card #
it went to Jacarta Indonesia i tod then to stop shipment and send back
they had a inside man at the hub there who ignored the stop ,myself and hundreds of other $$ pieces of equipment elsewhere , which would be over $20k today.
If they want to do a wire transfer to your ban that is fine , any checks have to be cleared by your bank and verified before shipping Anything.
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