... makes a good point... Do you want good sound with little fuss... or... the frustrations of pursuing "audio nirvana" with a "finicky" TT?!? This guy's had both - and he made his choice. Your choice...
Best turntable for the buck
I now amazingly find that my analog system has fallen behind my digital system in SQ and I want to investigate how to improve it.
Currently I have a heavily modified Rega RP3 turntable, with two power supplies, a new platter, sub-platter and other internal enhancements. My cartridge is the Clearaudio Virtuoso.
Not that it’s bad, but I want to look for something that will significantly improve the sound of my current setup.
Will about a 4K investment do that?
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@bassdude I’ve seen that video and it’s spot on. I actually tried to be kind to my wallet and started with the GR. It is noticeably brighter than the G, and doesn’t have the low frequency extension of the G either. The G is worth every penny and then some. |
@nferre66Yeah... I’ve got a Linn Sondek LP12... and... I think I’ll opt for the 1200G too, for the reasons Guttenberg and others have noted. Just want good sound... without the hassles. And... as you likely have seen in my related posts... I was debating the 1200GR vs 1200G - but - comments like yours have pretty well "moved the needle" to the 1200G. Now... I just have to come up with the best value (cost/performance) in a phono stage and cartridge - which may be a little more difficult to determine. |
@bassdude You don’t have to break the bank on a cartridge to get the G sounding killer. I’m running mine with a Grado Gold3. Sounds stunning. I probably went a bit overboard on my phono stage- a Sutherland Duo, but my goal is to build my last system. I’m in a good place.
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@rvpiano If you do, Music Direct has the all black 1210G in stock. My wife didn’t get it- until she heard it. |
@nferre66And... I guess... there is very little difference in the sound of cartridges - or - at least you don’t have to spend a fortune to obtain good sound from some of them. Frank Schroeder opened my eyes in one of his interviews on YouTube in which he noted that the two best sounding cartridges were: Denon 103 and the Now, I’m sure his point was... you don’t have to "mortgage the house" to obtain good sound quality from a cartridge. But... in listening to various cartridges it does seem that those two sound about as good as the Lyra Delos, which is far, far more costly. The "sweet spot" seems to be in the $400-$1000 range - with those two competing quite well. Finding that "sweet spot" may be a bit more challenging with phono stages - but - I’m sure it can be found. Like you I have been drawn to the Sutherland phono stages, but that’s still a bit more than I’d like to spend. |
The skeletal Rega 8 is very good. I heard one last year at a show and was surprised at how much better than any Rega 3 it was. Inky black silences and rock solid pitch and timing. No Rega 3 did that, and that’s hardly surprising is it?
That said, the near textbook perfect, virtually indestructible DD Technics 1200G easily beats it for sheer convenience. Plus you’ll never ever regret its removable headshell either.
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I would struggle with the idea that if a individual struggles to feel impressed by a TT, the set up of the TT is solely the cause of the deficiency of the SQ. I have been a user of a Belt Drive TT, Idler Drive TT’s and Direct Drive TT’s. My methods used for the mounting of a TT have progressed over the years, to utilise methods that are to my assessment, substantially improved over previous methods used. I still own all three of the different motor drive TT’s but am no longer owning a very heavy massy plinth Idler Drive that was used to supersede the use of the the Belt Drive many years ago. All TT’s get a spin, of which the Belt Drive is the least used, it does not present in a way that is an attractor to me, even though it replays music that is quite fine and at times even enjoyable. I find the Idler Drive as a comparative to a Belt Drive to be much more attractive, the presentation from the Idler Drive is ’up my street’ and I look forward to hearing the various versions that are available to me. I don’t see the point in a Belt Drive to Direct Drive comparison in my system, the DD is for myself the most attractive when compared to an Idler Drive, the presentation from a DD TT ’floats my boat’. I go out of my way to hear these in use in their various guises and in differing set ups. The ones I am encountering all delivery the goods in a manner I settle with very quickly. IMO, the thread has leaned towards the merits of a DD TT and I understand why this can be a very good thing. As always, I encourage nobody to purchase blind using recommendation only, the least should be a decision made following a demonstration in a unfamiliar system. The best option being a demonstration in the owned system. |
@mr_m Setup issues are the standard response when someone doesn’t like something. I used to be in the business and have set up hundreds of turntables. Over the years, I found myself using it less and less until it dawned in me that it was just a dust collector. I found myself staring at my album collection one day and realized I hadn’t played a record in 6 months. I bought a cheap turntable just to see if it was the turntable or me. It was the turntable. I used that cheap table more in one year than the SOTA in 10. I gave that turntable away (a Pioneer PLX-1000) to someone new to the hobby. Then a Rega P3, then 4 or so years with a MoFi UltraDeck. Finally a couple of months with the Technics SL-1210 GR and a few weeks with the G. Looking back I could have purchased an original 1200 back when I bought the SOTA. Do they sound like the G? Nope, not even close. But I’ve done on air radio work so I know them well. I would have had a better/more reliably consistent table for much less money. It’s likely that I wouldn’t have quit playing my records. But it all worked out in the end. Luckily because of folks on the internet I was able to rid myself of the SOTA quickly and for a good price (for me- the buyer, not so much.) If you like yours, great. But at $4k there are lots of options. I personally think SOTA should be approached without rose tinted glasses and with caution. But that’s just my opinion. |
Make sure you have the turntable isolated properly, especially if you are on a suspended floor. My P8 is on a wall shelf, and it sits on a Townshend seismic platform. Sound improvement was huge with the Townshend, and foot falls non existent when I put it on a wall shelf. There is a reason Rega sells shelves. Their tables sound better when they sit on them. Although I bought a Project shelf for a little over half the price :-) |
I have owned nearly all those tables you mentioned, like you, I have set up tt's since the late sixties so I think I qualify for set up. Your analogy for not liking the Sota makes no sense to me, but to each his own. I've owned Technics, not overly impressed. Any Technics I ever listened to wasn't remotely close to the Sota I have. But as you say, just my opinion too. |
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For $4K without question the VPI Scout 21 and Hana SHshould be high on your list. Bought together there would be enough left over for decent cables as well. I would go with the high output SH version as it eliminates the need for a MC preamp and extra cables with no compromise in SQ. And while some will rail on endlessly about unipivot arms, my experience is that they are a little scary to handle at first, but in practice they perform flawlessly. No other $4K package will get you further immediately, and still provide a direct upgrade path if you wish. Arm base, 10 kg platter, feet, arm, motor, even the plinth, are all upgrades. The Hana has been a joy, far outperforming any MM I've heard in transparency and dynamics, and fully comparable to any $2-3K moving coil. It is a package that owes no apologies. |
After reading a few reviews, I can not see how reading a few reviews is a safe method to assess anything about a item. Further to this I will not encourage any individual to prime themselves to part with 4K on any device/devices with out having had some form of a demonstration to support the decision to be made on a purchase. A friend who I assisted with their purchasing of a Tonearm, through my loaning them an SME IV to compare to other options being made available for demonstration on their system. When having selected a Tonearm was loaned a Cart to try out from a Dealership. After trying the Cart' compared to a few other Cart's that were available. They bought the quite expensive Japanese Cartridge shortly be for the period of Covid and Lockdowns. The opportunity to hear this Cart' in use was a long time in waiting. I read many reviews on this Cart' from many different reviewers based in different Countries. When I finally got my invite to audition the Cart', I was quite knowing what was to be expected - 'How Wrong I Was', this Cart' in use with the Selected Tonearm and TT, did not match the pre-conceived thoughts I had put together on its presentation. The Cart' impressed the pant's of me, it is an indelible experience, and one I am always keen to revisit, even better now that the owner has carefully selected other supporting ancillaries to expand on it qualities. More importantly the Owner was quite correct in their finding a way to receive home demonstrations and expanding on this by having options on comparison demonstrations. This equipment purchased with a careful consideration, are keeper devices, there is no questions about other alternatives, as the impression made has surpassed expectations. |
Make sure you have the turntable isolated properly, especially if you are on a suspended floor.
Absolutely. I don’t know of a single turntable that doesn’t be benefit from this. Some need it more, and some less, but they all need it.
To test feedback / resonance resistance should be easy for any modern reviewer, yet so few of them even think of doing it.
Why is that?
Even worse, some manufacturers don’t even want to publish detailed specifications. What might they be trying to hide?
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Rvpiano i’ve been a VPI Prime owner for about three years. I bought a B-stock unit from Music Direct, and I’m located in the USA. if you can visit Cliffwood, New Jersey you can hear all that VPI has to offer. A used Prime or B-stock might be what you really want to consider based on price (usa) and performance. I’m currently using the 2M Bronze Ortofon cart and 3-D unipivot arm with second pivot. The cartridge was new with the Turntable purchase. I am a DIY kind of guy so I was looking for a “final” turntable that had upgrade potential that I could do myself. If you like an upgrade path the Prime certainly has one. Every upgrade I’ve made to my Turntable has been an audible improvement. I have successfully avoided buying a better turntable to get better sound. |
mr_putty, Thanks for the input. I’m seriously interested in the Prime. My local dealer has it and is willing to set it up for me, I’m NOT a DIY person. I’m happy to hear you like it so well. I just hope it will be a significant upgrade from what I have now. |
@rvpiano FWIW I agree with some of the opinions here about the investment required to get analogue exceeding the SQ of digital. I have $10K into my analogue front end vs. a $600 streamer + $19.99 mth for Tidal. The delta is crazy but worth it for me. My only suggestion is that once you have a solid foundation (table, arm, isolation base) consider upgrading your cart; A good TT can support great cart. I'm using the $1200 Hana ML (LO) atm and budgeting $4K-ish for it's replacement when the time comes.
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@rvpiano i was in similar situation, as I have been attempting to assemble an ‘end game’ system for retirement. I had upgraded digital side (Bluesound Vault 2i and Marantz SA-KI Ruby), and turned to analog side. I have about 3000 LPs (though could trim in half without losing much I value). I actually have about your $4k in the rig itself … had a NOS VPI Classic 1 I’d not yet unboxed (long story), and added a SoundSmith Zephyr MIMC Star. Came from a Denon DP1200 and Grado F3+ w/8MZ stylus, and I’m very happy with the upgrade. Phono stage (Lehmann Black Cube SE) more than competent but the weak link, and may add SoundSmith’s phono pre before calling it done. |
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Ask your dealer for a list of the albums he used for the Evaluation. if you like the genre of music and recordings you probably have similar taste. If you don’t like the choices he makes I would be More independent and look for your own evaluation based on several albums you like the sound of. Your dealer should know about everything in your system and what your long-term goal is in terms of sound satisfaction. The prime has a 20 pound platter and does require some yearly maintenance. If this would be a problem for you or a technician then perhaps the simpler table is a better choice. 😀😀😀 |
rvpiano- demo of the VPI is the only way to determine if it might work for your ears. I'm just a long term Classic user. It certainly has its shortcomings-arm/speed consistency. Trying to optimize setup and a fresh belt keep those 2 in check. Phonostage/cart make up for the deficits. That said, it easily makes forgetting there are plenty of other choices that are in the same price range, but those will have their own set of deficits. That makes considering used of something more $ubstancial for 1/2 of new MSRP appealing, IF you want to put in the effort to find those units. The Prime is a decent table,particularly used. Knowing what I do now, I'd find one for real cheap and invest in the Phoenix/Sota speed control. That would be near your $Threshold. Aries pop up, now and then at reasonable prices too. As mentioned in my earlier post, Rega P8 or used P10 with Apheta(may be above your threshold)will allow you to escape turntable insanity and just enjoy the LP experience once again. High performance turntable use is like playing with a high end sports car or Hot Rod. Only limited by your wallet. VPI and Rega(P8/10) will get you to the subjective acceptable level. mr_putty mentions platter maintenance- a year or 2 wipe and dab of fresh lube is all that's needed. Less than 5 minute procedure. |
+1 @cd318 & @tablejockey I've thought about where a next step could be from my P8 and the thought of the tonearm matching issues and probably spending double the cost of the P8 to get something better and getting local support for that exact model would be a challenge. One of my main philosophies - KISS - maybe not applicable to many of the forum contributors here, but it's worked well for me over the years. Like I said, I've found the isolation improvements worth more than a turntable/arm upgrade of a step or two. BTW, I use a VDH MC One Special and I find it clean and detailed, a good match for the P8 from a weight standpoint as well. |
@knollbrent that is an impressive set of TTs. |
My dealer refuses to let me try out a new turntable with my Clearaudio cartridge in my system. I can’t say that I blame him (it would be a lot of work) but it’s a deal breaker for me. I don’t want to be stuck with a turntable the equivalent of mine. My very upgraded Rega tonally really sounds great. My problem is that It does not do the job of separating the instruments with space around them the way my digital system does. Maybe it’s too much to expect that the relatively inexpensive VPI will do that any better. As someone previously mentioned 4K is unrealistic. So, I may have to be satisfied with my very rich and smooth sounding analog side without the soundstaging. |
rvpiano- if you could get this shipped at or under $4K, it WILL be a significant upgrade to your Rega. As a keeper, long game is just Sota/Phoenix speed controller and swap out the unipivot for the gimbal, IF you don't care for it. Long game also includes outboard phonostage to maximize it's potential along with cart choice.
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Gracias @holmz |
@rvpiano You’ll like that! Congratulations! Ron Sutherland really knows his stuff. I had an Insight for a few years and stepped up to the Duo. The people at MD are pretty awesome too- it sounds like they listened to you and actually brought you in way under budget. |
@rvpiano it's tough to spend on a phono preamp but it is essential. Good move. What you have will change and /or improve and you will learn from that.
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