Best turntable for the buck

I have the mmf-2.2, it's a giant lemon. The tonearm lift broke in 2 months. I have had so many problems and so little fun, I'd stay away from it

@rvpiano

The importance of a high quality phono stage is often ignored.  The phono preamp may have the toughest job on all of audio- amplification of a tiny signal while adding as little noise as possible. On top of that it needs to provide accurate RIAA equalization.

Ron Sutherland really knows his stuff. You’ve bought a very high quality unit that should satisfy for many many years to come. It’ll also easily keep up (or ahead of) improvements in the rest of your playback chain, should you decide to upgrade in the future.

I had let my collection of 2000+ near mint LPs fall into disuse before buying this Phon. 
‘Now I’m really enjoying them.

Nferre66 +1

OP,

Yes, high end audio is a journey that is best celebrated at every stage.

ghdprentice,

Thanks so much for sharing your voyage through the seas of audio.
‘Very valuable information.
As I’m listening to the new preamp I’m liking it more and more. It seems, on my system at least, analog and digital have different flavors, both of which I’m enjoying greatly. I wish, like you, I could equalize them, but, for now, I’m appreciating both for what they do.

‘For the time being I’m a happy camper.

OP,
“the preamp reveals the flaws in bad records as much as it enhances the quality in good sounding records.‘

“The other issue I’m having (not really a problem but a concern) is the difference in texture between the records and digital sources.”

Both of these are valid and completely fixable problems. How sensitive your system is to bad recordings is a function of how far over to the scrape details / lean side of things your system is… quality of turntable, the “kind of sound” your cartridge has, phono stage, preamp and amp. The Sutherland 20/20 is not really on the cool side, although it is very detailed. So, I would first take a look at the cartridge. Is it described as really detailed? Maybe look for one that is described as musical / natural. Of course, upgrading your table will help as well. Tubed phonostages and preamps can be more natural and warm and not highlight the details (they are still there) and make all but the worst recordings sound better.

i am just trying to say, this is a completely known thing and can be changed. If not now, by your next choice. I struggled with this many times as I built my systems… I learned not to buy stuff that was billed as really highly detailed (at all costs).

As for the second one. Let me say this is the same, completely fixable. The character of my system through digital and analog is exactly the same. This is by design (a lot of years of learning). My Phonostage, and DAC are made by the same company and are at the same level. Also, I have a very good streamer (hence every natural and detailed) and I chose a natural sounding (Koetsu) cartridge. While you might be able to accomplish the sound matching with different companies for the Phono Stage and DAC…it would be challenging.

The other important quality of my system is that all components are ARC tubed equipment. The presentation is very natural… you get all the details… but the details are not over emphasized… it is the overemphasis of details that highlights many recordings in a bad light.

Let me give an example from my own history. I had a great mostly solid state system. When I would put on a classical recording and there was no sound yet (the symphony had not yet started playing)… I would instantly hear the venue… the little sounds reflecting off of the walls and ceilings and the noise floor of my gear. When I do that with my current system I hear mostly silence. Out of nothing comes the music when they start. This identifies what I am calling detail overemphasis. When I go to the symphony… the venue does not slap me in the face… it is there, I can hear it… like my current system.

Many people evaluate a systems performance by how obvious little detailed are (I used to) and not on how realistic proportional the sounds are.  You end up with less musical, picky systems.  You end up listening to the system instead of the music. 

Give this some thought. You have to relate it to your own experiences to grok it in fullness.

Actually, it’s a developing proposition. Since I’ve only had the phon 1 and 1/2 days!, my changes in perception are happening moment to moment. I think some breaking in is taking place, as I’m listening constantly. At any rate I’m liking records more and more as I listen.

+1 @solypsa 

@rvpiano congrats. Regarding your comment about 'rounded edges':

Of course this may be a cart or table issue. It is even be possible it is just different than your digital ( without hearing it I could not presume which is closer to 'real'...). Commonly though it could be related to the need to fine tune cart setup &/or loading at the preamp. Maybe both. Takes time to experiment.

Get a few hundred hours of use under the Phon's belt and then re-evaluate.

Also when all components are with a run in period, there is also the odd device that likes a warm up from usage prior to it letting the full potential be revealed.  

The only downside is that the preamp reveals the flaws in bad records as much as it enhances the quality in good sounding records.
The other issue I’m having (not really a problem but a concern) is the difference in texture between the records and digital sources. Digital sources are more finely etched with better sound staging whereas analog rounds off the edges a bit, but still has wonderful detail.
‘That might be a cartridge issue.

OP,

Yes, the impact of a great phono stage is incredible. I remember purchasing a $200 “A Recommended Component” Phonostage from Stereophile nearly 40 years ago. It sounded just terrible, I mean really bad. That started my upgrading that only slowed when I bought an Audio Research PH2… but upgraded as fast as I could afford it. The impact only slowed when I bought an $8K (I think) Audio Research PH8… but I continued upgrading and getting benefited to my current ARC REF 3. Really important!

Well, I got the Sutherland 20/20  installed on my system.  The good news is that it sounds fantastic right out of the box!  Night and day difference. Probably a much better choice than getting a new turntable,

 Yes, I think I’m going to be listening to a lot more records.

It is quite pleasing to see your choice made has been able to create such a positive impression, I know how significant a impact a well chosen Phonostage can have.

I would recluse now , enjoy the Honeymoon Period and get a good few hundred hours on the Phon' and Cart'.

You have made what might be a very good next course of action known in the quotes above, amalgamate the used words from above,

 "Yes, I think I’m going to be listening to a lot more records, Night and Day".     

Slaw,

Yes, I think I’m going to be listening to a lot more records.

Nice. Now you can post on our thread 

Can’t be that bad. If it is sorry. I like having a well sorted system and everything in its place.

Good luck in the jungle my man. The world of difference maybe the power conditioner being off line. 

‘The bad news is that somehow, by shutting off one of my two power conditioners in preparation,  I can’t  get it to restart!  I’m going through the jungle of wires behind my set to find the plugs. It may take days

That is a bit of a “discord”?
😎

I really didn’t know how much information was on my records.  It’s amazing that a preamp by itself could make that much difference.  I guess the rest of my setup isn’t that bad after all.

I’m just dumbfounded!

Well, I got the Sutherland 20/20  installed on my system.  The good news is that it sounds fantastic right out of the box!  Night and day difference. Probably a much better choice than getting a new turntable,  

‘The bad news is that somehow, by shutting off one of my two power conditioners in preparation,  I can’t  get it to restart!  I’m going through the jungle of wires behind my set to find the plugs. It may take days.

Agreed, a Technics 1200 is very affordable and a pleasure to use. If you get an old one, extract the power supply and put it in an external box. Mine’s a Mk5 and it holds its own against my Well Tempered Amadeus, Garrard 301s and Linn Sondek. I recommend upgrading the arm though.

it’s apparent that $4000 is not going to bring my analog side to the level that I’m hoping for.

I don’t believe that, but you will have to be very careful not to waste it. It’s possible to spend tens of thousands on analog snake oil. In my experience once you have a low wow turntable (i.e. not a typical belt-drive, with the exception of Well Tempered) I would suggest that the biggest bottleneck is the arm. Even expensive arms take their toll on the signal and most of the loss happens at the bearing.

For example, a Linn Ekos 2 is better than a Well Tempered arm, but make sure you have a very good look around because you can do better still.

Phono stages matter a lot. I recommend spending much more on a phono stage than on a cartridge. Cartridges are consumables and $200 can get you a cartridge which will not hold back your $4000 turntable rig. For example, I play an AT VM540ML through a $3K phono stage and it’s electrifying. I’m also currently using a borrowed retipped My Sonic Lab Eminent on another deck, but I have no preference. It’s finesse versus drama and I enjoy both equally.

I think several of the suggestions on this thread may not get you to the point where you prefer your vinyl source over your digital.

While not always considered the sexiest component the phono preamp might have the biggest ask in high end audio…

@rvpiano it's tough to spend on a phono preamp but it is essential. Good move. What you have will change and /or improve and you will learn from that. 

@rvpiano You’ll like that! Congratulations!

Ron Sutherland really knows his stuff. I had an Insight for a few years and stepped up to the Duo.

The people at MD are pretty awesome too- it sounds like they listened to you and actually brought you in way under budget.

Gracias @holmz 

Well, I had a long talk with a Music Direct person today, and I’m not getting a turntable after all. I’m getting a Sutherland 20/20 phono preamp.  This is probably the best first step in my quest for better sound.

rvpiano-

if you could get this shipped at or under $4K, it WILL be a significant upgrade to your Rega.

As a keeper, long game is just Sota/Phoenix speed controller and swap out the unipivot for the gimbal, IF you don't care for it. Long game also includes outboard phonostage to maximize it's potential along with cart choice.

$4k is completely realistic. A few here (including me) have mentioned the Technics. It’ll do what you want. Also easy to set up and use. It’s maintenance free and built like a tank. It sounds amazing.

Music Direct offers a 60 day home trial. You’ve really got nothing to lose.

My dealer refuses to let me try out a new turntable with my Clearaudio cartridge in my system. I can’t say that I blame him (it would be a lot of work) but it’s a deal breaker for me. I don’t want to be stuck with a turntable the equivalent of mine. My very upgraded Rega tonally really sounds great. My problem is that It does not do the job of separating the instruments with space around them the way my digital system does. Maybe it’s too much to expect that the relatively inexpensive VPI will do that any better. As someone previously mentioned 4K is  unrealistic. So, I may have to be satisfied with my very rich and smooth sounding analog side without the soundstaging.

@knollbrent that is an impressive set of TTs.

+1 @cd318 & @tablejockey 

I've thought about where a next step could be from my P8 and the thought of the tonearm matching issues and probably spending double the cost of the P8 to get something better and getting local support for that exact model would be a challenge. One of my main philosophies - KISS - maybe not applicable to many of the forum contributors here, but it's worked well for me over the years.

​​​​​​​Like I said, I've found the isolation improvements worth more than a turntable/arm upgrade of a step or two. BTW, I use a VDH MC One Special and I find it clean and detailed, a good match for the P8 from a weight standpoint as well.

The Rega P8 is more than acceptable.

It's one of the very best decks I've ever heard. It handles surface noise extremely well.

To get an even more expansive sound than that might mean a trip into vinyl insanity.

rvpiano-

demo of the VPI is the only way to determine if it might work for your ears. 

I'm just a long term Classic user. It certainly has its shortcomings-arm/speed consistency. Trying to optimize setup and a fresh belt keep those 2 in check. Phonostage/cart make up for the deficits.

That said, it easily makes forgetting there are plenty of other choices that are in the same price range, but those will have their own set of deficits.

That makes considering used of something more $ubstancial for 1/2 of new MSRP appealing, IF you want to put in the effort to find those units.

The Prime is a decent table,particularly used. Knowing what I do now, I'd find one for real cheap and invest in the Phoenix/Sota speed control. That would be near your $Threshold.  Aries pop up, now and then at reasonable prices too.

As mentioned in my earlier post, Rega P8 or used P10 with Apheta(may be above your threshold)will allow you to escape turntable insanity and just enjoy the LP experience once again.

High performance turntable use is like playing with  a high end sports car or Hot Rod. Only limited by your wallet.

  VPI and Rega(P8/10) will get you to the subjective acceptable level.

mr_putty mentions platter  maintenance- a year or 2 wipe and dab of fresh lube is all that's needed. Less than 5 minute procedure.

Ask your dealer for a list of the albums he used for the Evaluation. if you like the genre of music and recordings you probably have similar taste. If you don’t like the choices he makes I would be More independent and look for your own evaluation based on several albums you like the sound of. Your dealer should know about everything in your system and what your long-term goal is in terms of sound satisfaction. The prime has a 20 pound platter and does require some yearly maintenance. If this would be a problem for you or a technician then perhaps the simpler table is a better choice.  😀😀😀

My dealer is telling me he likes the sound of the VPI Scout over the Prime.

Anyone have an opinion on that?  It’s certainly more affordable.

Sounds like you’re doing great as it is. Rega definitely has great products. I have a VPI that I’ve also been thru the upgrade /modified process, and I’ve found it to be all that I want. Rock solid too..  

@rvpiano i was in similar situation, as I have been attempting to assemble an ‘end game’ system for retirement. I had upgraded digital side (Bluesound Vault 2i and Marantz SA-KI Ruby), and turned to analog side. I have about 3000 LPs (though could trim in half without losing much I value).

I actually have about your $4k in the rig itself … had a NOS VPI Classic 1 I’d not yet unboxed (long story), and added a SoundSmith Zephyr MIMC Star. Came from a Denon DP1200 and Grado F3+ w/8MZ stylus, and I’m very happy with the upgrade. Phono stage (Lehmann Black Cube SE) more than competent but the weak link, and may add SoundSmith’s phono pre before calling it done.

OP,

I can definitely recommend VPI turntables. I owned one for over twenty years… great value and performance.

$4000 gets you the 1200G with a great arm, easy setup and a turntable that won’t fail you. A turntable needs to spin without variance, thats it. Collect a few carts and make sure your phono pre is up to par. My system thrives on simplicity. Check it out here. 24 vintage carts.

@rvpiano FWIW I agree with some of the opinions here about the investment required to get analogue exceeding the SQ of digital. I have $10K into my analogue front end vs. a $600 streamer + $19.99 mth for Tidal. The delta is crazy but worth it for me. 

My only suggestion is that once you have a solid foundation (table, arm, isolation base) consider upgrading your cart; A good TT can support great cart. I'm using the $1200 Hana ML (LO) atm and budgeting $4K-ish for it's replacement when the time comes. 

mr_putty,

Thanks for the input. I’m seriously interested in the Prime.  My local dealer has it and is willing to set it up for me, I’m NOT a DIY person.  I’m happy to hear you like it so well.  I just hope it will be a significant upgrade from what I have now. 
‘My cartridge is fairly high end, costing four figures and my phono preamp is a Conrad-Johnson. I do have a cleaning machine for my 2000+ records.

Rvpiano

i’ve been a VPI Prime owner for about three years. I bought a B-stock unit from Music Direct, and I’m located in the USA. if you can visit Cliffwood, New Jersey you can hear all that VPI has to offer. A used Prime or B-stock might be what you really want to consider based on price (usa) and performance. I’m currently using the 2M Bronze Ortofon cart and 3-D unipivot arm with second pivot. The cartridge was new with the Turntable purchase. I am a DIY kind of guy so I was looking for a “final” turntable that had upgrade potential that I could do myself. If you like an upgrade path the Prime certainly has one. Every upgrade I’ve made to my Turntable has been an audible improvement. I have successfully avoided buying a better turntable to get better sound.
lightly off topic to your hardware search is just how Important it is to have clean vinyl when playing your records. (and keeping your stylus clean). The quality setup you’re looking for WILL reveal sometimes unexpected presentations in your records and perhaps not surprisingly, the cleaner your records are the better they sound. I hope you already have a cleaning system in place, if not you should budget for one.

@sokogear

Make sure you have the turntable isolated properly, especially if you are on a suspended floor.

Absolutely. I don’t know of a single turntable that doesn’t be benefit from this.

Some need it more, and some less, but they all need it.

To test feedback / resonance resistance should be easy for any modern reviewer, yet so few of them even think of doing it.

Why is that?

Even worse, some manufacturers don’t even want to publish detailed specifications.

What might they be trying to hide?

After reading a few reviews,

I can not see how reading a few reviews is a safe method to assess anything about a item.

Further to this I will not encourage any individual to prime themselves to part with 4K on any device/devices with out having had some form of a demonstration to support the decision to be made on a purchase.

A friend who I assisted with their purchasing of a Tonearm, through my loaning them an SME IV to compare to other options being made available for demonstration on their system. When having selected a Tonearm was loaned a Cart to try out from a Dealership.

After trying the Cart' compared to a few other Cart's that were available.

They bought the quite expensive Japanese Cartridge shortly be for the period of Covid and Lockdowns. The opportunity to hear this Cart' in use was a long time in waiting.

I read many reviews on this Cart' from many different reviewers based in different Countries. When I finally got my invite to audition the Cart', I was quite knowing what was to be expected - 'How Wrong I Was', this Cart' in use with the Selected Tonearm and TT, did not match the pre-conceived thoughts I had put together on its presentation.

The Cart' impressed the pant's of me, it is an indelible experience, and one I am always keen to revisit, even better now that the owner has carefully selected other supporting ancillaries to expand on it qualities.

More importantly the Owner was quite correct in their finding a way to receive home demonstrations and expanding on this by having options on comparison demonstrations.

This equipment purchased with a careful consideration, are keeper devices, there is no questions about other alternatives, as the impression made has surpassed expectations.      

For $4K without question the VPI Scout 21 and Hana SHshould be high on your list. Bought together there would be enough left over for decent cables as well. I would go with the high output SH version as it eliminates the need for a MC preamp and extra cables with no compromise in SQ. And while some will rail on endlessly about unipivot arms, my experience is that they are a little scary to handle at first, but in practice they perform flawlessly. No other $4K package will get you further immediately, and still provide a direct upgrade path if you wish. Arm base, 10 kg platter, feet, arm, motor, even the plinth, are all upgrades. The Hana has been a joy, far outperforming any MM I've heard in transparency and dynamics, and fully comparable to any $2-3K moving coil. It is a package that owes no apologies.

Try to find a Thorens 124  MK2. You gonna enjoy it. !!

@rvpiano

I guess I missed those reviews...

Unfortunately, 4k won’t do it. Rega P10 and a nice dynavector cartridge will get you to your destination.