Balanced vs. Single Ended Interconnects

holmz ,

I am up to any trial you would want to perform.

Though I am an adherent to the new AQ cables, I am open to trying new things-esp, things that have an intrinsic scientific background- like using cotton instead of a DBS system.

You only know when you try it. And, as a gardener, I'll try anything-Except incest.😉

B

I’ll message you, and find out the length.
If you don’t keep them, then I can recycle them back into another cable.

@holmz ,

I am up to any trial you would want to perform.

Though I am an adherent to the new AQ cables, I am open to trying new things-esp, things that have an intrinsic scientific background- like using cotton instead of a DBS system.

You only know when you try it. And, as a gardener, I'll try anything-Except incest.😉

B

FWIW, I used the cables Ralph sold me with his amps/preamps(-Mogami), when my dealer recommended AQ, I really couldn't hear much of a difference, despite the AQ being significantly more expensive. (I forget the model, but they did not have the dielectric system). Once again, YMMV.

@gdnrbob I am making some cables up in the silver cotton insulated wire, and will then use a shield which is either a large wound around it all, or a weaved jacket.

I doubt it will make much of a difference, but I can make another pair if you want to try that approach. And as Ralph says it doesn’t matter, then it may not make sense.

But if there is any truth the theory behind the DBS, then changing the dielectric to cotton will mitigate them needing to be biased, as cotton does not likely polarise like teflon.

I need some short ones for the TT to phono and then to the preamp, so I figured, “What the heck”

My interpretation of an old almarg post is that some noise rejection may occur connecting XLR with just one of the units being balanced, so I gave it a try. 

If the lengths are short, and there is not hum, then one may not hear any difference… because there probably is not any significant difference.

I would add that short lengths will minimize the effects that a cable can exert on  sound reproduction-aka Cable coloration.

I think Ralph Karsten has it right. Equipment using the AES 48 standard will allow you to use an XLR cable that will have minimal effect upon sound reproduction. (Which is why they use that standard in recording studios).

Using an XLR cable with equipment that doesn't support the AES standard means that all bets are off-Any cable may or may not affect sound reproduction. And, YMMV.

FWIW, I used the cables Ralph sold me with his amps/preamps(-Mogami), when my dealer recommended AQ, I really couldn't hear much of a difference, despite the AQ being significantly more expensive. (I forget the model, but they did not have the dielectric system). Once again, YMMV.

B

ohlala - If you're connecting to an unbalanced component then balanced cable provides no benefit.  If it's a cable designed for an unbalanced connection that just has an XLR connector then I'd anticipate that it would perform nearly identically to a standard unbalanced cable.  If it's a cable designed for a balanced connection with an RCA connector, then I'd anticipate that it might perform poorly since it's being used in the wrong application

It is sort of the other way around.
Using an XLR into an RCA adapter, with say the starquad cable one should see:

• slightly better immunity to magnetically induced signal from the starquad cancelation (Pretty subtle I would think)
  • and all the CMRR advantage is lost.
• a higher amount of capacitance (maybe double?)
• probably a bit more immunity to ground loop as there is a wire and a shield (in parallel) to couple the ground between the chassis. (Maybe half?)

The main reason I would use an XLR cable in that scenario is that one could use XLR, or they could decide to use the RCA with the adapters.

Basically when the 3 wires of the XLR are made into a 2 wire system, it is equivalent to the 2 wire cable. But one cannot decombine a 2 wire cable back into a 3 wire cable.

As you know most pro audio is balanced. If you had significant runs and problems with ground loops and hum, then the XLR is your friend.
If the lengths are short, and there is not hum, then one may not hear any difference… because there probably is not any significant difference.

I have had Pathos Inpol 2 (bigger brother of your amp) and also had Pathos Classic 3 on loan from a friend, for a comparation.

It is a lovely sounding little amp and it is sensitive to cable changes. So, no matter what anybody might tell you, my first hand expereince with your amp is that it will sound 'better' with 'better' cables, rca or xlr, meaning, the xlr will not sound better, just because its balanced cable.

I am looking forward to hear gear that is made with that AES standard that Atmasphere (have not heard his stuff) mentiones when he writes about balanced connection. 

P.S. I would look for some sh older upper class AQ cables (audiotruth), before later models that were often counterfited... 

@ohlala - If you're connecting to an unbalanced component then balanced cable provides no benefit.  If it's a cable designed for an unbalanced connection that just has an XLR connector then I'd anticipate that it would perform nearly identically to a standard unbalanced cable.  If it's a cable designed for a balanced connection with an RCA connector, then I'd anticipate that it might perform poorly since it's being used in the wrong application.

I tried XLR mogami vs Purist Proteus RCA (5m) from an unbalanced crossover or preamp to a fully differential amp. The Purist sounded like Purist and the XLRs sounded more distorted, which was the least surprising outcome. 

I was able to borrow a pair of monoprice premium XLR cables from a friend and hooked them up yesterday.  My initial response was positive, but after a little longer listening I felt like some of the smoothness was missing.  I currently have the Audioquest Sydney RCA cables back in the system for another round of comparision.

@chrken - While it is possible that at the lengths of cables that are generally used in home audio the difference between balanced and unbalanced could be negligible, a quality balanced cable connecting two balanced components should always be superior (all other things being equal).

My experience has been that I've noticed only a modicum of difference between XLR and RCA, though the bulk of my system is unbalanced, thus RCAs have always been the most prevalent. The most significant differences between interconnects that I've heard is in the quality level and architectural differences in the cables between brands, type of copper or copper vs. silver, gauge, connectors, and dielectrics. I'd place the connection type as a lower priority and give higher priority to the quality of cable that is a good match in your system.

This at $25 each plus shipping?  If you get someone to order for you with an Amazon Prime account then shipping is free

A balanced vs single ended cable, both being of similar CONFIGURATION,

They are not the same configuration. For starters on have 3 wires and the other has 2,

will transmit the waveform with identical defeciencies, therefore sound the same.  The balanced cable however will show a +6 dB gain over the other.

Maybe SNR not gain?

  There is also some immunity to common mode noise, usually a minor consideration. 

When did CMRR become a minor consideration?

A balanced vs single ended cable, both being of similar CONFIGURATION, will transmit the waveform with identical defeciencies, therefore sound the same.  The balanced cable however will show a +6 dB gain over the other.  There is also some immunity to common mode noise, usually a minor consideration. 

All 3 of my upper end DACs are fully balanced designs.  All three sound better with XLR cables than RCA, from the same manufacturer.  Not Mogami but Grover Huffman cables (lower cost boutique).  

In my system, XLR interconnects are no better at rejecting noise than RCA/single-ended cables.  In fact, they're worse.  I get a 60 cycle hum with XLRs between my preamp and amps that I don't get at all with RCAs.

Well, the new DAC arrived last night and I anticipate being satisfied with it for a long time to come.  It was a clear step up across the board, so if balanced cables can make a further improvement, that time will come.

OK @mceljo - if you do not want to take the time and try them, then it will be hard to determine if the inexpensive ones will work just fine or not… and also will be hard to understand what the $200 cables would do that the cheaper ones would not do.

Someone needs to mess with building them, either you pay someone, or you build them yourself.

Obviously I like the convenience of being able to build them in the specific length, on a Sunday when the stores are closed.

@holmz - I'm the head of the AV team and might have even donated most of the cables.  I could borrow them at any time, but don't want to mess with 6 long cables!

Now you talkin’! A very solid thought!

@audphile1 he already knows those cables from his/her church, and doesn’t want to spend $20 to try them out.

They say that the lord works in strange ways.

What’s next…a speaker from an ice cream truck? They work just fine there, should work at home. 

He did not mention that he uses monoprice XLRs on an ice cream truck.

It sounds like a sherbet to try those too. 😎

My Denefrips Ares ll feeds my Mac MA5300 via Zavfino XLR interconnects. I think they were around $130. I have no desire to look any further.

holmz

1,910 posts

11-08-2022 at 12:03am 

@mceljo maybe the padre would let you borrow a set to try at home?
If they work fine at church, they should work at home.

Now you talkin’! A very solid thought!  What’s next…a speaker from an ice cream truck? They work just fine there, should work at home. 

Sorry petg60 I should have clarified I’m talking about AES-48 compliant components only please excuse my omission on that.

The Mogami website spells out all the specs unlike some high end boutique cable manufacturers.  Well built w/Neutrik gold connectors and no need to upgrade further.  

I am afraid that this is a wrong approach.

Why not upgrade further, who says so,?

Whatever is best for some may be mediocre for others.

Mogami website may publish specs, products are well built, but does this make it a better sounding solution? I know it is not the case, so should the very knowledgeable and respected manufacturer.

@audphile1 

+1

Andrew Robinson uses ONLY unbalanced interconnects. He doesn't believe in balanced. I've don't hear a difference when I switch them out.

I was recommended by some very knowledgeable and respected high end manufacturers of amps and preamps the "Mogami Studio Gold Neglex Quad XLR" and bought it at Sweetwater pro music store online for a little more than $100/pair.  The Mogami website spells out all the specs unlike some high end boutique cable manufacturers.  Well built w/Neutrik gold connectors and no need to upgrade further.  

I’d recommend the “World’s Best Cables” as a solid trial for xlr’s using quality mogami or canare cabling. They’re also very well terminated, most with neutrik connectors. Was a bit skeptical until I purchased a set and saw how well they’re made. Roughly $40 on Amazon and we’ll worth it. They sound VERY good, balanced, detailed. They claim a long burn in and I’m inclined to believe it as they have “opened” over time. 
 

I got off RCA more than 30 years ago.  Never going back.

My whole system runs balanced; that is truly balanced, not just single-ended terminated with XLRs.

I'm sure that I could borrow cables from a friend.  I am a fan of Blue Jeans Cables, but it would cost $60 plus shipping which is starting to be a significant amount of the $200ish that I'll eventually spend on Audioquest Red River cables.  I think the Monoprice cables would run under $20 and I have been using them at my church for quite a few years without issue.

@mceljo maybe the padre would let you borrow a set to try at home?
If they work fine at church, they should work at home.

In addition to being a lifelong audiophile, I've done mobile  sound reinforcement work as a "geezer jockey". 50-Foot cable runs between components left balanced XLR connections between BALANCED components indispensable in terms of eliminating EMI and RFI. I always used "Canare" cables with gold XLR connectors. And I never had a reason to use anything different. I've also compared Canares between my home audio components; and compared them to pure silver Audio Magic RCA interconnects which lock securely to the RCA jacks on my components. And I'm hard pressed to hear any difference in SQ. So I stick with my Audio Magic cable dimp[ly because I've invested hundreds of dollars in them.

Stay with your AQ RCA cables until you can buy a good set of XLR cables.  Buying the monoprice XLR is throwing $20 away. They won’t beat your audioquest cables. 
Also, my recommendation is to make bigger steps while upgrading. So if you want to stay with AQ go up to something like the Wind. Bypass the Red River. Or get better cables from another brand but stay in a price range of around $300-$500 for a used pair.

To clarify, my ultimate goal is to utilize the fully balanced design of the DAC and Pathos (fully balanced preamplifier section).  I don't have any XLR cables at the moment and will have to wait a while before purchasing anything else that smells of audiophile.

I'm sure that I could borrow cables from a friend.  I am a fan of Blue Jeans Cables, but it would cost $60 plus shipping which is starting to be a significant amount of the $200ish that I'll eventually spend on Audioquest Red River cables.  I think the Monoprice cables would run under $20 and I have been using them at my church for quite a few years without issue.

I'm not sure what approach I'll take with purchasing XLR cables when the time comes.  On the surface it would seem that balanced cables should make far less of a difference than a single ended cable simply because noise should become an insignificant factor.  With that being the case, does it matter if the cables have fancy geometry that's normally used for noise rejection in single ended cables?  Things to ponder in time.

I outlined my experience in another post. XLR hiss through speakers - RCA silence. Can anyone explain this? Pre is Aesthetix Calypso - amp EAR 534. 

Did the amp hiss when the preamp was not powered?
If so, then the preamp was making the hiss.

I outlined my experience in another post. XLR hiss through speakers - RCA silence. Can anyone explain this? Pre is Aesthetix Calypso - amp EAR 534. 

Your equipment is true balanced design, use XLR to keep that topology intact; don’t downgrade 

Without question balanced XLR

Though I might have read it wrong, I believe Ralph's (Atmasphere) belief in using equipment that adheres to the AES standard is that it minimizes cable artifacts (sound differences). Given that recording studios use such equipment, and their cables can stretch of long distances, it makes sense to use it.

So, if your equipment follows the AES standard, then XLR cables will/should not 'color' the sound as much as RCA cables. (And, from my limited experience moving between Mogami and AQ, there was very little difference in sound quality).

If your equipment doesn't follow AES standards, then any cable you use would be prone to 'coloring' the sound. At this point, it doesn't matter how much you spend, as your cable becomes a tuning method. So, you'd have to audition to see what makes your system sound the best.

HTH

Bob

fagetaboutit

For whatever it's worth I have done a lot of critical listening over the years with a lot of different high-end audio equipment and at short distances (1/M - 1.5/M) and I have not noticed a difference in the music comparing XLR to RCA other than I acknowledge that when the volume is set at the same level the XLR cables are about 3dB louder. Therefore assuming your equipment has both RCA and XLR inputs and outputs I recommend staying with a good pair of RCA interconnects unless you are talking about extremely long runs.

If they sound the same, then other conclusion would be to just run XLRs.
They are more immune to noise.

 

I thought proper xlr cables used “common mode rejection”?

meaning the two half signals being 180 out of phase… thus cancelling out any real EMI/RFI when summed at the termination?

in other words, XRL cables with no shielding at all should work just the same…

but single ended RCA cables improve with proper sheathing?

 

I know I have a lot to learn in the balanced versus unbalanced cable department lol

I think you have learned it.

Though I may be mistaken, it looks to me that your Pathos Classic One Mkiii is not truly balanced. That is, it does not use differential circuitry; the balanced inputs are either transformer-coupled, or simply single-ended inputs on XLR connectors. If that's the case, you're not likely to get much (if any) benefit from using a balanced cable.

Even it is transformer coupled, one stills get the CMRR benefit from the XLRs.
(Those Jenson ISOmax couplers are used for the main reason in that they work.)

For shorter lengths i suggest you try both and see what you like best.

My experience is that both have to be of equal quality no matter what the configuration. 

I thought proper xlr cables used “common mode rejection”?

meaning the two half signals being 180 out of phase… thus cancelling out any real EMI/RFI when summed at the termination?

in other words, XRL cables with no shielding at all should work just the same…

but single ended RCA cables improve with proper sheathing?

I know I have a lot to learn in the balanced versus unbalanced cable department lol

The same to me. There are more permutations of unbalanced cables because it’s much harder to get them "right." The majority have 50% of the audio signal configured as a shield. Unbalanced is dated technology.

Ask Ralph.

For whatever it's worth I have done a lot of critical listening over the years with a lot of different high-end audio equipment and at short distances (1/M - 1.5/M) and I have not noticed a difference in the music comparing XLR to RCA other than I acknowledge that when the volume is set at the same level the XLR cables are about 3dB louder. Therefore assuming your equipment has both RCA and XLR inputs and outputs I recommend staying with a good pair of RCA interconnects unless you are talking about extremely long runs.

I'm not sure whether the Pathos Classic One is fully balanced or not. In the video, Kevin says it has a "fully balanced front end." That sounds to me like the amplifier itself is not a differential design, @jerryg123.

But, with that front end, I can see that there could be advantages to using a balanced cable.

@cleeds about 6.50 in Kevin addresses the balanced input question. It is fully balanced according to Pathos.

According to Ralph (Atmasphere), if both components use true balanced architecture, there is minimal benefit in using uber expensive balanced interconnects.  Ralph, if I have misinterpreted the above feel free to correct me.

IMHO there is really never any situation where using really cheapo wire is advisable when Blue Jeans, Redco and plenty of other companies sell interconnects (and speaker and other wire) using excellent Mogami and Canare wire at VERY reasonable prices.

Though I may be mistaken, it looks to me that your Pathos Classic One Mkiii is not truly balanced. That is, it does not use differential circuitry; the balanced inputs are either transformer-coupled, or simply single-ended inputs on XLR connectors. If that's the case, you're not likely to get much (if any) benefit from using a balanced cable.

I second Mike's suggestion to get some cables made from Mogami W2549. You'd have to spend quite a bit more to get better cables. 

In my experience (with the Terminator and Terminator Plus), the Denafrips DACs perform much better when using balanced connections. 

Is it worth getting some cheap Monoprice XLR cables

Yeah - I think it is worth it to try them.
I personally use Mogami and Neutrik, but I doubt it makes much difference in XLR.z
It should sound great… or as great as the same cheap cables it was recorded with in the studios.

you’ll be fine.