Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

@djones51 :

…. and the biggest factor that determines what you hear is your  speakers/room .

Agree on that. I would love to learn what you accomplished on that front. Please post a picture of your system here. I assume you have excellent speakers placed on a highly optimized purpose built dedicated heavily treated room? I think you have Dutch & Dutch active speakers, correct?

 

 

Although I don't agree  with Amir (ASR) on many conclusions I do enjoy watching him now and again.  He does not offend me and quite a few times has shown/taught me something I did not know.

I'm also of the opinion that he does help a budding audiophile get into a hobby without spending $$$$.  If the gear he recommends actually sounds good, the budding audiophile will at some point want to upgrade and likely have an open mind concerning listening vs testing. What other way is there? Unless your name happens to be Julian Hirsch.

I watched a clip of an interview with Amir where he stated that his main system consisted of Revel Salon II and Krell class A monoblocks. He didn't go any further than that.  Sort of paradoxical when you consider he MUST have tested speakers that measured the same.  Or not!

Regards,

barts 

 

This is a waste of time if you’re going to mischaracterize ASR based on a few posts or threads.

Senior Members of ASR use all types of amplifiers, speakers, digital and yes even vinyl. There are members who have designed tube amps, designed speakers of various types, as well as have extensive knowledge and training in Psychoacoustics among other disciplines. Maybe try to spend some time reading instead of confronting. They may show the best engineering of certain products through testing but they don’t discourage discussion of less than stellar performers. I don’t really understand the hostility.

If you don’t like ASR then ignore them, but they’re not going away.

If you prefer a $12000 DAC to a $300 DAC then by all means buy one, if you claim it's "better" on ASR then you need to be able to prove it.

That's right..listen for differences.

Science gives us weather forecasts and Covid dictates. It has its place, but one case of positive listening and negative electrical testing, or the reverse demonstrates to us that all properties are not being measured.

@kokakolia - Amidst the humor and sarcasm it seems your point is that ASR is a bigger deal than I give them credit for and people who are not capable or experienced enough to come to their own conclusions turn to ASR and the Pink Panther as the authority on the quality and value of audio equipment. Therefore, when the panther loses his head because ASR erroneously pans the sonic performance and/or value of a piece of audio equipment (because of their over reliance on objective testing), then potential buyers get scared off resulting in lost value for the seller. You are right, I hadn’t thought of that.

@djones51  My issue with ASR is that they frame the discussion on their terms. ASR's testbench is the law, anything else is fairytales. This showcases an incredibly narrow way of thinking which will have notable consequences in the long-term:

- Homogenization of products. ASR makes it implicitly clear that there is only one way to build a speaker, a DAC or an amplifier. All other methods are inferior. Any deviation from neutral is viewed as a mortal sin. 

- Stifling innovation. Because unconventional approaches to Hi-fi are ridiculed. I dare you to say anything positive about a fullrange driver or tube amplifier on ASR! 

- Hype over 2 or 3 products at the expense of everything else. The SINAD ranking of amplifiers exemplifies that perfectly. 

So part of me is willing to accept the ASR mentality out of convenience. Find a good amp, a good DAC and a good speaker and mass produce it to the extreme to bring the cost down and eliminate the doubt during purchase. 

And another part of me is kinda sad because building a Hi-Fi system is deeply personal. There is no "one size fits all" approach. Every room is different. Every person is anatomically and psychologically different. I doubt that a speaker like the KEF LS50 will be a good fit for ALL people. 

 

People can vent all they want. ASR is a good source of realism and someplace like it is a great service. Noone forces anyone to take their advice which is basically here's the measurements decide for yourself. If you prefer a $12000 DAC to a $300 DAC then by all means buy one, if you claim it's "better" on ASR then you need to be able to prove it. It's not hard simply listen to them in a controlled blind test. The disservice this forum has for newbies is the mindset price determines ability which hasn't been true for decades in this niche hobby. If there is one overall piece of advice I would take from ASR is test for yourself, don't assume you're immune from human bias and the biggest factor that determines what you hear is your  speakers/room .

I will add, regarding the subject of cables (and other "accessories") that constantly placing those in the "snake oil" and "ripoffs" section is also a huge disservice to newbies or to those who try to keep the costs manageable.

The opposite is true, it's a huge service to newbies who want to keep costs manageable. 

@rolox +1

 

@kokakolia : I think I understand what you were trying to convey, get your “drift “, but I am not really sure:

ASR is a big deal.

ASR has the advantage of using sciency graphs and very little words. This is what people want.

 

Some stuff I used to read over the years at ASR is mind boggling. Say on a DAC, comparing (read: measuring) a $12,500 DAC vs. a $300 DAC. They measure pretty much the same, good. Any difference in measurements is simply way beyond human hearing (many of the measurements say the same thing, beyond human hearing threshold). So both are in the list with the same score and “points”. However, who in the right mind would buy the expensive DAC on that list, when the same quality DAC (read: measured quality) can be purchased at a fraction of that price? They proceed to say, yes, some people like to buy “bling”, and they can be totally excused for that, as long as they do NOT “make claims” on the sound quality, which obviously based on the impeccable measurements, is just the same. 🤦‍♂️

 

@mitch2 ASR is a big deal. Your self-centered approach of "take the advice you want" just applies to you, and only you. 

Call me crazy, but the Pink Panther score is EVERYTHING. To a potential buyer, anything less than a Panther swinging a golf club is synonym with garbage, trash, horse manure, baby vomit...

Because buyers want to spend their hard-earned cash on the best value proposition, and be re-assured that they have. ASR is the authority with a science aesthetic. You can remove all critical thought and subjective preferences out of your mind, because ASR did the work for you. You can call this an authoritarian dictatorship, but to the clueless buyer with limited time/money this is a direct message from the angels in the sky. "Buy this and you will be happy".  

ASR has the advantage of using sciency graphs and very little words. This is what people want. They don't want to think, but they want to feel smart. 

An Audiogon member wouldn't really fall for it. But jump to other forums such as DealLabs and you'll immediately read "ASR is a good source for buying advice". I am paraphrasing.

Moreover, imagine selling/recommending gear to a random person. That random person will immediately consult ASR and if the gear doesn't get Amir's approval the deal is off (or you could lose all credibility for recommendations). It's that bad.  

@djones51 I will add, regarding the subject of cables (and other "accessories") that constantly placing those in the "snake oil" and "ripoffs" section is also a huge disservice to newbies or to those who try to keep the costs manageable. Like I said earlier, I'm poor, and I try to buy the best components I can afford (based on SUBJECTIVE reviews and actual experience from owners, not based on measurements) then I try to extract the best from them. I have drawers full of cables, great value cables, and it's true I've got some kind of a fetish for those. 

I can easily describe the sound character of each one of them, and I could easily - if that's what I wanted - change the tonality / PRAT / global presentation of the system just by changing the cable loom. And it's still much cheaper than changing the components. 

I also love "fancy fuses" and isolation footers.

Let's take my last component purchase: Audiolab 6000CDT transport. A great component at very much entry level price. Adding a good power cord (the best you can afford), a 30$ fuse, trying various decoupling footers, and putting some weight on top (I use heavy stainless steel and rubber door stoppers, 8$ each) elevates this entry level transport into something that performs MUCH better. According to Amir and its followers, what I did with that transport is all BS and snake oil, and the sad part is, some guy who reads that might just take the easy way and believe everything he reads there, and on the long run will end up being disappointed (if he actually listens, that is) with his purchase... while it would be so easy and cost effective to take it to the next level (or three levels up!) 

Constantly reducing Audio to a specs sheet or measurement graphs is not only very limited, it is also depriving people of a lot of fun and personal experimentations that would let them enjoy their system a great deal more. 

@djones51 ASR doesn't offer anything of value to us audiophiles. I've been there, done that, I've bought a 250$ DAC with pristine measurements thinking it would be all I'll ever need. I'm poor, you see, so it's easy to fall for ASR 's claims. "Yaaay I got a great deal and you guys are all morons"

Unfortunately, those claims are utter BS in the real world for anyone who has EARS and actually LISTENS to their equipment. So, I'd rather see ASR as a disservice to the audiophile community, on top of being full with obnoxious (let's call a cat a cat) members.

My preference for a reviewer is J. Gordon Holt.  The equipment he found to be musically pleasing is still musically pleasing.   I have noted that it was not Amir who wrote scathing opinions about my equipment and myself but the followers of Amir.

@mitch2 I agree.   Who knows if and when there will be test equipment for currently untestable aspects of sound?   For now, there are those parameters which can be and those which cannot be tested for.  Hence, listening (with various people having divergent preferences) is required to evaluate in a subjective manner the sound reproduction which is most pleasant to least pleasant.   

I find this fascinating. It seems folks want a universal evaluation system that ranks audio equipment on an irrefutable, absolute scale. Hint - it ain’t never gonna happen!

ASR performs testing and reports results of common parameters such as noise and distortion, frequency response, dynamic range, jitter, S/N ratio, and other comparisons using their own test equipment. This is simply objective information. In some cases, their test results do not align with manufacturer’s claims. Again, simply information.

The issues here seem to be that Amir’s subjective opinions about the gear tested often do not align with the opinions of many here. In addition, the mental route Amir takes to reach his subjective conclusions does not align with many here who put a much greater emphasis on listening, while they believe Amir puts a greater emphasis on test results.

Big deal. Read the test results for what they are, and form your own opinions on the items tested based on your own listening. As some have pointed out, systems, rooms, and listener’s preferences are all different so it is no shocker that people come to different conclusions on what sounds good to them. It is Amir’s site, so he can state his opinion and how he arrives at it. Nobody (including Amir) is making anybody agree with Amir. If you disagree with Amir’s subjective opinions, the objective test results, and the pink panther, then why are you even reading the site? Or, is it a case where everybody who owns an audio system has to think alike? It really is ok to disagree, and the absence of consensus is more expected than surprising. Don’t hold your breath waiting for that universal evaluation system.

ASR claims that all amps with the same frequency  response and output level matched and that  are load invariant will sound the same.

There probably is a degree of truth in that but  it ignores things like harmonic distortion types ,skew rate and resolution of stereo information.

Audio Science Review. Is interesting but measurements are just that. Several amps might have similar specs but one could sound bright, another less bright but bass strong, the next might have a great Soundstage but lack midrange. I heard the difference. I will never forget the Mark Levenson monos system I heard in the 1980s using a Lynn Sondeck, wow! I don’t remember the model. I think they said it was 10wph? Unbelievable. Really thumped low and sounded perfect to me.

asctim

... while I really appreciate reviews with measurements like ASR does, I do acknowledge that there’s a strong possibility that there are things being missed that are audible ...

That's especially true because ASR doesn't bother to listen to everything it measures. Without correlation to what we hear, the measurements don't have much value.

A scientifically established fact on limits of human perception can easily be misapplied. Take for instance the claim that a light blinking fast enough will appear to be not blinking to the human eye that’s looking straight at it. This is true and demonstrable, but someone might say something like "If it’s blinking at a certain speed you can’t detect with your eye that it’s blinking." That’s not true, because as you sweep your vision across you do detect that it is blinking. So there’s a fact that’s been well established and then there’s a story about that fact that isn’t really true. I don’t know that I can come up with a really good comparison with audio but one might be masking effects. MP3 data compression relies on known tonal masking effects in human perception to throw away data that you "can’t hear" anyway. This may work better in some situations than others. I recall listening to a recording of the cocktail party effect, where on the recording you can hear a whole bunch of voices talking at once but can’t really make out a word anyone is saying because they all mask each other. In stereo over speakers I still couldn’t make out a conversation. Because it was, I believe, a binaural recording using a dummy head, when listened to over headphones or using a divider plate between my speakers to prevent crosstalk, I suddenly could make out a nearby conversation because spacial cues became available to more distinctly separate it in distance from the surrounding hubbub. So why am I bringing this up? I’m just wanting to acknowledge that while I really appreciate reviews with measurements like ASR does, I do acknowledge that there’s a strong possibility that there are things being missed that are audible. I think it's a worthy effort to keep trying to find ways to measure everything we perceive and enjoy in audio. With more understanding we have a better chance of more consistently getting the perception that we want.

Reliability and consistency are big issues that I think are overlooked by all reviews, somewhat out of practical necessity. To really do it right is quite expensive and time consuming. Multiple units should be tested over long periods of time with a variety of different inputs and outputs and configurations. My personal experience with digital audio and video equipment is that intermittent problems can and do pop up that are audible and visible without totally destroying the signal. The "bits is bits" argument clearly isn’t true. The music or video can come through distorted at times but mostly intact, meaning some bits are being misrepresented. After a system reset the problem usually resolves for the short term. If the effect is subtle it might be misattributed to a fundamental flaw in the quality of the media or in the playback potential of the component in question, when really it’s just an intermittent inconsistency caused by various devices not coordinating well with each other.

As for audibility of various cables and other electronic components, what might shine some new light on those and how they interact with each other would be a set of measurements off a speaker in an anechoic setting rather than test bench measurements of the components in isolation. It would be important to keep everything identical in the measurement space each time, only changing equipment upstream. I suspect that some unexpected differences in the speaker’s output might be measured as amplifiers, dacs, cables, etc. are interchanged. To keep things exactly the same with each measurement the speaker would probably have to be built into a wall so that it’s front side was in the anechoic measuring space and all other equipment was outside, preventing any potential effects from the size and shape of the components changing the response in the measuring area. Even that might be a bit misleading because some equipment might be effected by being exposed to the sound the speaker is making in a sort of feedback loop. So a second speaker might have to play in the equipment room to provide that input, but it would be very important that none of that sound leak back into the measuring area. You can see why this sort of testing isn’t done very often.

"Sting isn't going to personally travel to your house and perform while you're eating your nightly bowl of spaghetti." 

@kokakolia - This actually makes me very happy 👍 

Well you would not expect consistent unanimous results from blind listening tests involving different listeners  because different people have different sonic preferences.But there is value in what was found to be good on average as that product is most likely to sound good to most people-or at least most experienced listeners because that is what the listeners were[usually a mix of industry designer/engineers and audio journalists].

And Hi Fi Choice did use more than one listening session per product.And all products were level matched.The difference with other unsighted tests being that the room was familiar to the listeners  and I consider that would make a difference in terms of being able to hear more differences between components and something that should be included in any blind listening tests but isn't.

Perfection is the enemy of good

Hmmmmm…. I am not sure this is how the society and humanity works, and has worked over the millennia to get us where we are today 

@jtgofish 

If you want to really get under the skin of the ASR thought police bring up the years of Hi Fi Choice unsighted group test reviews which consistently described significant differences between the sound of components and ranked them accordingly.

 

Yes, I used to feel the same way about Hi-Fi Choice's so called blind listening tests.

That is until I realised that they hardly ever had a consistently unanimous result.

 

Sometimes a group winner would be someone's least preferred choice.

As was stated earlier, this rendered the group tests as mere opinion.

Even worse, they hardly ever subject an item to a repeat test as subsequent tests can contradict earlier ones.

This month's group test winner would be next month's old news.

I remember a group test of valve amplifiers where the group test went totally against the verdict of an earlier highly favourable review in the same magazine by long time reviewer, the one and only Malcolm Steward.

I was saddened to learn of Malcolm's death in 2020. He seemed to be one of those likeable people you thought that would be around forever.

As far as reviewers go, and that's usually not very far, he was one of the best.

I am not one who goes for the hype.  I test our tweaks before buying them.  As to my equipment, I have custom built 22 year old amps, pre-amp and phono pre-amp.  My speakers are 28 years old.  My modified SME IV is 33 years old.  My VPI TNT VI is 16 years old.  Yet I still purchased a new SUT last year, Zesto Allesso and a new digital cable, SR Atmosphere Euphoria.  So, I have a higher end system as an audiophile but am not into changing equipment without a significant improvement.  

As to flat frequency speaker response, I think there is a problem with that statement.  One needs a neutral speaker to start with.  The better and best speakers have off axis results in a room which tend to boost bass and roll off highs.  Reviews of high end speakers show this.   Speakers are not heard both on axis in pairs but in a central location in a room.  I am not explaining this sufficiently accurately but the gist is that listeners receive a sound like the Fletcher-Munson curve and not a truly linear, flat frequency response.  "We are not equally sensitive to sounds of all frequencies so perceived loudness of a tone in fact depends on frequency as well as intensity. Two sounds can have the same physical sound pressure levels but if they are of different frequencies, they are often perceived as having different loudness."  

Certainly, every listener has a preference and mostly different preferences for the sound they prefer.  That's another reason why there are so many choices in audio equipment.  Equipment though, should maintain consistent, neutral character unless the designer wants a colored, less faithful to the recording/mastering engineer reproduction.  That's the purpose of neutrality.

"Some people want to see where the state of the art is, and it is amazing how quiet and distortion free they can make equipment even at very moderate prices these days.

If anyone can show new measurements that reveal how the expensive equipment is really outperforming the moderately priced stuff I'm very open to it."

You put the finger on the problem with Hi-Fi: Big claims. Big Expectations. Uncertain Results. High costs. What are you even trying to accomplish throwing dollar dollar bills around? Sting isn't going to personally travel to your house and perform while you're eating your nightly bowl of spaghetti. 

As long as you have that mindset of "pursuing the best", you'll always be looking at the flaws first and spinning that hamster wheel continuously earning money and spending that on gear you don't need. 

With the ASR mindset, everything is put on a test bench. If that item doesn't score highly on the test bench, it is trash. Buy the top-rated product, then buy the next top-rated product the month after.  

I'm all for calling out BS whenever a manufacturer makes big claims, charges high prices and fails to deliver. 

But at the same time everything is becoming a contest and hype is inevitable.

So I'm utterly confused. Because ASR makes sense at the low end where most products are bad and some stand out. But then there's the obligatory hype of "this speaker punches way above its weight". So you buy that, and it sounds just like a cheap speaker. And you had this fancy pair of speakers in the living room this whole time. 

So my conclusion is: Perfection is the enemy of good (and your wallet). You could just invite your buddy over to smash some beers and listen to tunes. They don't give a flying care if "The treble is a little tinny on that specific track" or "The vocals are a bit nasal with THAT amp". 

Simply do not believe a thing from Amir and his minions. No I do not own AQ speaker cables.

ASR is a clown car posse. 

Last monday a speaker cable review on ASR. Also see the claims the brand put forward Like "Carbon-based Nois an crosstalk Dissipation System"

I think it is benificial for consumer that ASR test/review this cabels/claims.

 

If you want to really get under the skin of the ASR thought police bring up the years of Hi Fi Choice unsighted group test reviews which consistently described significant differences between the sound of components and ranked them accordingly.

Also mention that unsighted tests of speakers and listener preferences show that most people do not prefer a flat frequency response-far from it.And different types of listeners like novice,experienced,audiophile and trained listeners tend to have different preferences.They all prefer more bass and less treble but to varying degrees.So what is the point of worshipping products with ruler flat frequency responses?

Another reason not to trust anything ASR states as fact or as the best.

Snapsc: "ASR points out shoddy construction and safety concerns that you don’t see anywhere else. "

No they do not! Topping has had some real reliability issues. These were pointed out by some members of ASR. Amit refused to accept any responsibility for this at all and said he just measures the, So people have bought a "great measuring" dac or amp that sounds average and that quickly breaks down. Wonderful!

Yes, and mostly on cheap audio gear.  

I see a couple positives at ASR. 

1.  they measure things that might not otherwise be measured. How the measurements are interpreted is up to each of us individually… and if you derive no benefit, you are free to ignore.  
 

2.  ASR points out shoddy construction and safety concerns that you don’t see anywhere else. 

Don’t I then need to add carefully controlled double blind listening sessions?

That's what I meant by reliable controlled tests. Unless cables, amps, DACs etc.. have vastly different measurements that's the only way to get a realistic view of these components. Sighted listening tests or just proclaiming from above on difference in sound doesn't inform anyone of anything. 

@djones51

My theory might be that I can measure electrical differences between cable ’A’ and cable ’B’ and if they measure the same then they must sound the same and if they measure sufficiently different, then they must sound different.

Don’t I then need to add carefully controlled double blind listening sessions?

 

@djones Apparently, you believe that cables that measure the same sound the same.  That's ridiculous except on ASR.  That's like saying every amp that tests the same sounds the same via Julian Hirsch.  Not on this forum.  There are inadequate or no tests which allude to the differences in the effects on sound by different cables yet test the same.  They are also system dependent.   

If cables are used as tone controls it will show up in measurements. Simply saying you can hear differences in cables that measure the same without any reliable controlled tests to support it is only opinion. On this site it's a normal and accepted way of discussing audio. If this subjective opinion was shared on ASR as an opinion it's accepted as well it's only when one consistently claims it as fact after repeatedly being informed it's not science you get banned. It's comparable to flat earthers insisting the Earth's flat on astronomy forums, you're trolling which gets tiresome, no wonder you were banned. 

The subjective/listening component of equipment valuation is 100% necessary.  Use of measurements only is limited to what it is that is measured.   Since there are no "scientific" measurements for many sonic/music factors, measurements are only a starting point in evaluation. 

 

To those of us who vehemently believe that cables can determine sound quality of a system as does a speaker, beyond their use as "tone controls," there are no scientific measurements which delineate why they sound a certain way.  They are also system dependent.  Quality of manufacture is perhaps, one of the strongest measurable components of a cable.  I am a believer yet I cannot "prove" why my cabling sounds so good in my system.   I've tried my cables in multiple systems, sometimes they are just as great (especially on more modern and high end systems) and sometimes they don't perform as well as expected (on friends mid-fi but good equipment).  

Speakers are much easier to scientifically measure than cabling at this point.

@asctim 

"I agree that ASR puts an awful lot of weight on measurements that are way beyond audible. But that fact it is mentioned and acknowledge frequently on the forum, even by Amir himself."

 

Yes, they do acknowledge this, and it's quite unfair to portray them as unflinchingly rigid in their opinions. Amir himself is not above apologising for mistakes. They do call themselves Audio Science Review.

 

 

"Some people want to see where the state of the art is, and it is amazing how quiet and distortion free they can make equipment even at very moderate prices these days.

If anyone can show new measurements that reveal how the expensive equipment is really outperforming the moderately priced stuff I'm very open to it."

 

Me too.

 

"If some amp or streamer or other electronic audio device is readily preferred by a vast majority of listeners under blind testing but there's no measurement known to indicate why, that would be fascinating.

Nothing of the sort is going on out there that I know of."

 

Me neither.

 

Of course ASR are not the only ones taking the logical scientific approach to assessing playback performance.

Audioholics and Erin's Audio Corner on YouTube are just 2 such examples of this welcome trend to combine data analysis and subjective listening.

 

If you're in the business of selling audio products you really need to accept which way the wind is blowing.

ASR isn't suggesting that folks shouldn't buy more expensive equipment if that's what they want, just as long as they aren't being deceived that they're getting better playback performance.

 

People are free to spend their money as they see fit. If you want a more powerful amp, or more features, better build quality, reliability, customer service etc then these are all valid reasons to spend more.

There should be no need for deception, manipulation, betrayal of trust etc.

 

 

I think it is interesting to see measurements and compare them with subjective impressions, especially my own. If something sounds pleasing to me, or doesn't, I'd like to learn more about why that is whenever possible. What parameters of sound reproduction really matter to me?  If it turns out it is added distortion that I like, that's good to know! What bothers me is when a claim is made that something sounds good because it doesn't have some particular distortion when measurements clearly show that it does. That claim needs to be reconsidered. They should just say it sounds really good for some reason and it's added distortion. I for one think that any added distortion like that should be on the recording itself, or in an effects box that can add it or subtract it to each listener's desire. Ideally dacs, streamers, amps, preamps and the cables connecting them should all sound neutral and the same. That's my ideal. That part should be under control and a known quantity. I think it is not only possible but is actually frequently achieved by moderately priced equipment that is properly engineered. I know some people will swear up and down that they can hear a difference between all these inexpensive devices but I'm convinced it is a lot harder than they think when they don't get to know which device they are listening to. Neutral may not sound the way people want it to and that's fine. From there they can adjust using known parameters which are repeatable using an effects box with adjustments. Mixing and matching using cables, amps, and sources as effects boxes on purpose is a really messy, uncontrolled and expensive way of solving the problem. But if people enjoy that method or feel it's unavoidable because of their hearing abilities I'm not going to tell them to stop. I agree that ASR puts an awful lot of weight on measurements that are way beyond audible. But that fact it is mentioned and acknowledge frequently on the forum, even by Amir himself. Some people want to see where the state of the art is, and it is amazing how quiet and distortion free they can make equipment even at very moderate prices these days. If anyone can show new measurements that reveal how the expensive equipment is really outperforming the moderately priced stuff I'm very open to it. If some amp or streamer or other electronic audio device is readily preferred by a vast majority of listeners under blind testing but there's no measurement known to indicate why, that would be fascinating. Nothing of the sort is going on out there that I know of.

You are correct. Audioholics speaker reviews by Feinstein are excellent and include moderate priced high end products. He ended up with my second system speaker, the newest version of the Legacy Signature SE.

Below is a great review, both objectively (measurements) and subjective (listening). Plus a very detailed description of all the technical aspects. To me, this is how all reviewers should be in the perfect world. A little outdated in terms of current pricing of the speakers.

 

And before you slam me about posting Audioholics stuff, note this NOT a “review “ from that clown Gene 😂

I read through and heard some of Erin's reviews and found them to be superbly informative in both objective and subjective factors.  His Dutch & Dutch 8c and Revel PerformaBe F226Be were his favorites and the latter, an inexpensive great speaker.  His Vandersteen 2 speaker evaluates it for it's time and inferiorities.  I only want him to evaluate higher end speakers.   It is unfortunate that his site is not Absolute Sound or Stereophile where the manufacturers are throwing samples at reviewers (or other on-line reviewers such as Positive Feedback, Enjoy the Music or SoundStageUltra for example).  I suspect that the Magico, WIlson, Rockport, YG, Von Schweikert, Magnapan, etc. would measure well but I'd like his report instead of John Atkinson's and his subjective opinion(s).  

"A lot of reviewers on the web lacked the knowledge but everyone believed them because they were charismatic and sounded knowledgeable."

- Shocker!

@sns You are talking about ASR in terms of absolutes with extreme metaphors.

I’ll play devil’s advocate for ASR for just your argument. [I still think that ASR are bullies and they banned me indefinitely]

A subjectivist with an untrained ear is like a wine sommelier without a nose.

I’ll name just one example: JAMO S803 or C93.

This speaker got very positive reviews from the speaker review community. Some members like Cheap Audio Man and Z reviews were hyping them up.

And then Erin’s Audio Corner published a long review with measurements showing that the JAMO S803 was possibly the "worst" speaker he ever reviewed. Erin criticized the honkey sound, the huge midrange dip and the hot treble. Erin also demonstrated the JAMO S803 shortcomings with voice recordings and EQ.

So the JAMO S803 are the farthest from natural/neutral sounding.

Fortunately, the S803 is an older model and fewer people are interested in purchasing a pair. But I’m very certain that speaker reviewers from YouTube got the cold sweats knowing that they hyped up a "bad" product.

So you could be a subjectivist or an objectivist. But you need a reference point (live music, graphs, playing an instrument etc...) to know what’s good and what’s bad.

A lot of reviewers on the web lacked the knowledge but everyone believed them because they were charismatic and sounded knowledgable.

And this is where ASR waves their objectivist flag proudly. No sugarcoating. Just measurements.

Now I’m gonna praise Erin for not being a turd despite relying on measurements. And you can tell that Erin goes back and forth between measurments and subjective listening. Erin trained his ear with measurements. But you can train your ear with real instruments and live music.

If you bring this conversation to ASR you’ll likely get a sensible answer from some members who simply want to:

- Single out bad speakers like JAMO S803

- Alternate between measurements and subjective listening

- Make an informed purchase

HOWEVER, mention Erin once and you’ll be treated like a dunce by ASR. Criticize ASR’s lack of interest in music, subjective listening and personal taste and you’ll probably be banned. ASR has the final word, just keep your mouth shut.

@snarfie23 ....nothing much new under the sun there, and the study results are what is coped with on a daily basis anyway....*shrug*mock yawn* ;)

was over there reading up on something earlier today and i will agree with whoever mentioned it that it is absolutely hilarious to watch the couple guys falling all over themselves to kiss amir's ring on every review. no self respect. he's like their dad 😂

all told, i think the site is fine. whatever. we've all been around the block. some people think they have all the answers and they look kind of silly...but many of us do the same, perhaps in other areas of life. what can you do 

BINGO!