Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy
"Audiophiles are Snobs" Youtube features an idiot! He states, with no equivocation, that $5,000 and $10,000 speakers sound equally good and a $500 and $5,000 integrated amp sound equally good. He is either deaf or a liar or both!
There is a site filled with posters like him called Audio Science Review. If a reasonable person posts, they immediately tear him down, using selected words and/or sentences from the reasonable poster as100% proof that the audiophile is dumb and stupid with his money. They also occasionally state that the high end audio equipment/cable/tweak sellers are criminals who commit fraud on the public. They often state that if something scientifically measures better, then it sounds better. They give no credence to unmeasurable sound factors like PRAT and Ambiance. Some of the posters music choices range from rap to hip hop and anything pop oriented created in the past from 1995.
Have any of audiogon (or any other reasonable audio forum site) posters encountered this horrible group of miscreants?
"iiWi Reviews on YouTube is one of the few places where those Chinese amps are reviewed subjectively. The reviewer got me very interested in the Sabaj A10A which seems to be working well with his KEF LS50 Meta. His reference amp is a Hegel H190 (which is a perfect match for the KEF). iiWi Reviews was very happy with the Sabaj A10A, stating that the amp disappeared and he was just enjoying the music."
A number of Chinese brands are of very high quality. Opera Consonance for example gets excellent reviews in German Hi Fi magazines. AM makes brilliant amplifiers and they are not cheap but they are heavily over engineered and weigh a lot. The sound quality is excellent and is among the best of all tube amps you can buy.
Where people get annoyed with ASR is when some say "I will not listen to this because it measures badly". Similarly when they claim that "All Dacs sound the same", I know this is a nonsense. I have been to dealers where different Dacs were used on the same system and the dealer said nothing about cost so the argument that if it is more expensive you think it sounds better is absolute rubbish. There is often a big difference in the quality of sound. I dislike the sound of Dacs using ESS chips as I find many of them have a mid range glare which is not conducive to female voices. When I mentioned this I was informed I like distortion and I was thrown off the site and I am not the first or the last. I was told that I am not willing to be educated and learn.
It is also the arrogance in the site that is nauseating. "Stick around here and we will teach you". That together with the worship of Amir as if he is some sort of spiritual guru is enough to put off anyone.
@cd318"There are still many fine people who work selflessly for the common good."
No doubt. And Marx was hoping that such was inherent human nature, and massaged and frankly made up "historical facts" to support the hope and turn hope into theory which then ran into reality. Ironically, Marx never really was much of a "worker" himself, treated his own employees terribly, loved spa vacations, and was supported by the money of his buddy Engels' dad (a wealthy factory-owning industrial capitalist)...
But sure, many fine people work for the "common good," which however is usually open to interpretation and therein lies the rub. It is possible that the founders of ASR believe themselves to be working for the common good in one small niche by applying science, or their version of it, with the aim of dispelling vaporous myths and questionable claims in the notoriously misty world of audio... a world that is built upon the premise of the possibility of creating illusions, after all.
That said, I happen to like the illusions created by some speakers that ASR did not like. It's fine they didn't like them, but I'm with most of you in that I didn't like the tone they took with me when I said so, that I like the speakers in spite of, or perhaps because of, what they deemed to be imperfections... and when they start veering away from science and start to tell me why I'm wrong and even silly or stupid to like something that I do, then they have stepped out of the scientific role and right into the subjective and thus betray the very ideals they purport to support.
That said, I do think they offer a good service, an alternative perspective to consider, as long as they stick to their measurements and leave it at that.
@tonywinga I've mentioned in other forums that I built listening rooms in my prior home in 1993 and spent $150,000 in a high end design room built from scratch in 2019 in my current home (my last). Everyone who hears my system now revels in the music and sound despite not having ultra high end equipment. I do have lower cost high end equipment to complement the room. I suspect that high end Von Schweikert speakers would have eliminated the need for such a great listening room but building in bass traps in the walls based on an activated carbon filter system in the walls didn't hurt.
cd318,Indeed that might have been the point of ASR.And that is fine.The theory is fine.The idea is fine.But like any idealistic concept the enforcement can become toxic and counter-productive.Just like communism and religion.
I want to mention that many of my direct to disc Japanese LPs from the 1970s have very explicit information on the recording chain including the monitors and a schematic of the mike setup/mixer.
The real concern about ASR is that they are unlike any other audio forum on the planet in that they actively censor and shout down anybody who dares to express any experience based opinion.
Wasn’t that the whole point of ASR?
To get away from purely subjective forums where one routinely contradicts the previous one?
As the likes of Dr Sean Olive and Dr Floyde Toole have stated, it’s their wish to escape from audio’s seemingly endless circle of confusion where X is sometimes better than Y, and sometimes y is better than X.
Where we don’t know what a recording is supposed to sound like because we have no idea of technical limitations of the original monitoring loudspeakers that were used in the recording.
By introducing some generally accepted scientifically measured reference points we may finally be able to escape from this seemingly inescapable audio maze.
We know that some of the monitors used in studios on the 1950s and 1960s didn’t always have the flattest of frequency responses.
Therefore what chance have we of hearing those songs as they were intended if we are now using loudspeakers that have a markedly different frequency response?
Bring into the equation different masterings, different rooms and different amplification and this circle becomes very confusing indeed.
Frankly, isn’t it saying something that there are some here that seem to be so intolerant of an entirely different perspective on an entirely different audio forum?
Is Amir really that threatening, or is it merely what he's saying?
Most of the discussions here can be classified as persiflage. I've noticed that when things get technical the discussion quickly drops off but touchy feeling, "subjective" topics go on for quite a while. I'm ok with both types of discussions. They are fun. I find useful information on this site at times. I would not depend on this site for advice spending $$$ on components. Nor will I go by the advice of a salesman. I have to hear them for myself and be convinced the component is robust and reliable.
A story about a buddy of mine who retired some years back and went to work as a salesman for a national tire chain. He said that one day he gets a call from someone looking for tires for their new Corvette. The guy says he had a BMW M5 and hated it. The car practically drove itself he said. The Corvette is great, he says, it has to be driven. Some days later he got a call from someone wanting tires for their M5. They traded in their Corvette for the M5. They hated the Corvette. They loved the M5 because it practically drove itself.
Everybody likes what they like. Measurements matter to the designers and builders.
btw- I scour the tire data on the websites and the reviews before I buy. I buy tires too infrequently to have an informed opinion. I only know that I liked or disliked the tires that were on the car. So my behavior is inconsistent but it is difficult to try tires before you buy. In other words, sometimes we take our chances on a purchase and we will grasp at any information or data that we can find.
I'm always happy with the stereo gear I have until I hear something better...
Measurements? We don't need no stinkin' measurements.
If they measure perfectly, why wouldn't he "talk highly" about them???
Perhaps because some of them sound like shite?
And there is the perfect example of the problem...people think their subjective opinions are fact. There are fans and detractors for most of the amps on the market. Opinions don't really mean much of anything in reality.
If you even hint at how measurements can serve a useful purpose on this site, you will get the same mean, nasty, uneducated response.
This strikes me as a dubious claim. Feel free to prove me wrong by linking to examples of mean or nasty responses to a mild reference to the usefulness of measurements.
I am well aware of that isolated, idiotic responses can be found on many various threads, but the suggestion that there are some kind of systematic attempts to shame those who merely suggest that measurements can be useful does not ring true.
So here’s the business model: Get a couple of measuring instruments like a FFT analyzer and a LCR meter. Start up a u-tube channel and pick a polarizing, controversial topic like expensive stereo gear. Make some simplistic measurements and declare this expensive component measures worse than its cheap counterparts or perhaps merely the same. This stirs up controversy and like guppies in a fish tank swarming to the fish food flakes he gets thousands of hits on his channel by us hobbyists because we can’t pass up a good fight. Cha-Ching! Brilliant!
Even the notion of a hobby based forum which does not allow opinions is outrageous.Can anybody else think of any other hobby type forum that would even contemplate such a thing? That might be fair enough in forums dealing with building bridges or prescribing medication but not in something used for home entertainment and music reproduction in the home and which exists to reproduce music .Which is a highly subjective thing.
@laoman iiWi Reviews on YouTube is one of the few places where those Chinese amps are reviewed subjectively. The reviewer got me very interested in the Sabaj A10A which seems to be working well with his KEF LS50 Meta. His reference amp is a Hegel H190 (which is a perfect match for the KEF). iiWi Reviews was very happy with the Sabaj A10A, stating that the amp disappeared and he was just enjoying the music.
However, iiWi Reviews is not the most experienced reviewer, but he's not as ridiculous as Z reviews or CheapAudioMan which hype everything up.
Perhaps it's not crazy that a cheapo Infineon chip amp could rival more prestigious Hypex amps. That said, some YouTuber stated that the Bluesound Powernode (with Hypex amplification) didn't play well with the KEF LS50. He said that it sounded sterile. And it was an issue with slow transient response/current management which made the LS50 sound like car speakers. So he bought a Hegel H190 and never looked back.
So... the confusion never ends.
@goofyfootASR members commented already. There's not much of a debate. Like I said, ASR members are set in their ways and won't budge from their "trust the measurements/science" stance.
Amir does get paid by a lot of Chinese Fi company to promote their perfectly measure product ( Topping, SMSL …). There is no coincidence that Amir always talks highly about these Chi Fi.
If they measure perfectly, why wouldn't he "talk highly" about them???
@jtgofish it's a privately owned site. they can set whatever rules they want. if i had a site i could set a rule that says if you criticize phil collins "face value" album in any way whatsoever, you are permanently banned. and no amount of whining or "but my free speech" could change it. that's just how it goes. i'm not infringing on anyones right to criticize phil collins albums, you are perfectly free to do that anywhere else online, but on my site it's not gonna fly. this is all those dudes are doing. the mods there are just weenies who think they know everything, they aren't violating anybody's rights. this whole thread proves it
Amir does get paid by a lot of Chinese Fi company to promote their perfectly measure product ( Topping, SMSL …). There is no coincidence that Amir always talks highly about these Chi Fi.
If they measure perfectly, why wouldn't he "talk highly" about them???
There are all sorts of legal implications that apply to posts and actions that are in forums.Including the right to sue somebody for malicious damage.
I do not think that anybody would argue that there is not a right to remove individual posts that breach the user agreement- made on a case by case basis but the exclusion of all posts that are made based on opinion regardless of their content is the concern.Those sorts of freedoms have been hard won and are not to be dismissed lightly.
The stupidity in that statement is like 30 years ago technics new SS amp with it’s much flatter measured response now made the Vacuum tube amplifier obsolete
when comparing measurements. The Technics is now obsolete -Non existant
thevaccum tube distorts Even harmonics the older Solid state odd or more bright
that being said With Mosfets, Fet, Bipolors they have some tube like characteristics .
Older audiophiles may remember the Watts War of the 1970's, brands, especially newer brands of amplifiers, would sell products based upon the number of watts they were said to produce. Most of them sounded like crap. Do measurements adequately predict how a product will sound, go listen for yourself.
@jtgofishI think, just my opinion, ARS does not violate any human right law.I suspect, however, Amir does get paid by a lot of Chinese Fi company to promote their perfectly measure product ( Topping, SMSL …). There is no coincidence that Amir always talks highly about these Chi Fi.
Just because something is privately owned does not mean it has the right to ignore/fail to comply with human rights that are protected by law.Far from it.
Or maybe they a wing of the North Korean government.They certainly act like it.
😂. I thought about North Korea too, but I wouldn’t go that far. China more reasonably 😂
I would however respect their right to selectively choose what posts to allow in their site. It’s a private site. Not a public or governmental forum. They are allowed to censor. The problem lies elsewhere, as I laid it out above
Yes but they are under the jurisdiction of wherever they are located.USA I am guessing.Or maybe they a wing of the North Korean government.They certainly act like it.
Basically everyone is simply hallucinating, whenever they share any experiences, without “proof”, or any measurements to back up their experiences.
I don't think they believe people's experiences are hallucinations. It seems pretty clear to me that they believe there is no place for subjective opinion when evaluating equipment on an objective basis as it is factually empty on an individual basis. One can never reach a logical, rational, supportable conclusion via 3rd party opinion. If one wants to share personal opinion, that is not the site for it.
There is perhaps something to be said for sticking to objectivity- here, in this very thread for example, you can see people called idiots, deaf, and liars simply because they have expressed a subjective opinion that that the op disagreed with, based on his own subjective opinion. Ironic, isn't it?
The real concern about ASR is that they are unlike any other audio forum on the planet in that they actively censor and shout down anybody who dares to express any experience based opinion.Most of us living in free and civilised countries have the right to have and express opinions guaranteed by law and yet here is an organisation that seeks to trample on and deny those fundamental rights and exclude people who might express or defend those rights.It is a bit like some fundamentalist religious sect in which a small group of gatekeepers and thought police seek to control the the thoughts and behaviour of its members.
This sort of conduct needs to be challenged and condemned wherever it is encountered.And FFS it is only discussions about audio!A completely harmless and victimless interest.
'Science brought us cellphones and high yield crops to feed the world. Pseudoscience is politically charged technobabble that benefits the few.'
Once upon a time scientists toiled away in their spare time hoping to leave behind them more than a footnote in the annals of their chosen field.
Later on it was the Nobel prize and the prizemoney that went with it.
Or perhaps a tenureship at a prestigious university.
Nowadays, more often than not they find themselves toiling away to enable their employer to increase their profits. Truth and honesty are dangerous words which can lead to instant termination of contracts.
Yet not everyone is given to feeding the globalists unquenchable thirst for ever greater profits. There are still many fine people who work selflessly for the common good.
You only need to look online for free Open Source software for evidence of that. I would argue that sites like ASR fall into the same camp.
'I fail to understand the level of anger and name-calling that results from the ASR site posting measurements and their personal opinions, while it is apparently ok for the "wisdom of the masses" on sites like this to encourage people to spend thousands of dollars on multi-colored fuses, expensive cables, incomprehensible tweaks, or digital add-ons and doodads that become obsolete about every two years as the manufacturer releases the next latest and greatest.
Did someone kill a sacred cow?'
Maybe not a sacred cow, perhaps merely someone’s high yielding cash cow .
If sites like ASR continue to expose poorly engineered overpriced equipment then quite rightly it might affect sales.
Unfortunately, as we’ve recently seen all over the globe, not everyone has the consumers best interests at heart.
It’s about their malicious campaign against audiophiles in all audio social sites
I guess I have never noticed this, maybe because I do not know who "they" are. Is Amir a poster here, or at Audio Asylum, or at What's Best Forum, or another site? Is there an organized cadre of ASR members who purposely campaign against subjective evaluation of audio equipment? I am not arguing, but I just haven't seen it outside of the typical back and forth that goes on here.
It should go without saying that buying any audio equipment based on any third party recommendation, without first listening in one’s room with one’s equipment is fraught with problems and a crap shoot.
Relying on any one source of information for purchasing choices, whether the manufacturer’s marketing babble, reported measurements, professional reviewers, or posts on forum sites like this may very well lead to disappointment, particularly without thoroughly listening to whatever is being purchased and preferably in one’s own system.
I fail to understand the level of anger and name-calling that results from the ASR site posting measurements and their personal opinions, while it is apparently ok for the "wisdom of the masses" on sites like this to encourage people to spend thousands of dollars on multi-colored fuses, expensive cables, incomprehensible tweaks, or digital add-ons and doodads that become obsolete about every two years as the manufacturer releases the next latest and greatest. Did someone kill a sacred cow?
This stuff is a common byproduct of free enterprise, which is still a better system than the alternative. You can learn to protect yourself (and your money) with knowledge, experience, and street savvy.
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