The elephant in the room IS the room. The room’s effects at low frequencies are huge. Like enginedr1960 above, I’m a disciple of Earl Geddes when it comes to how to do a subwoofer system right. The justification for using multiple (often four) intelligently-distributed smaller subs is qualitative, not quantitative: The sum of their multiple dissimilar in-room curves is quite a bit smoother than any one alone. And smooth bass is "fast" bass because the peaks are where the energy takes longer to decay. Most speaker/room combinations have significant room for improvement in the bottom couple of octaves, so subwoofers done right can make a worthwhile difference. Note that the ear is actually more sensitive to differences in SPL at low frequencies than it is higher up the spectrum. This is revealed by the way equal-loudness curves bunch up south of 100 Hz. In the 40 Hz region, a 3 dB change in loudness is subjectively as large as a 6 dB change in loudness at 1 kHz. That’s why bass peaks stick out like sore thumbs. As a general principle, the in-room smoothness increases in proportion to the number of intelligently distributed bass sources. So two subs are potentially twice as smooth as one, and four subs are potentially twice as smooth as two (and that potential is not elusive - but neither is it automatic). And unlike smoothness achieved by EQ alone, which is limited to a small listening area while the bass is actually made worse elsewhere, the smoothness of a distributed multisub system holds up well pretty much throughout the room. Duke dealer/manufacturer/Geddes Mafia charter member |
My question is, for strictly music, are subs even worth while...$$$......if so, why? What could I expect that’s different and/or better than what I’m already hearing..............No experience with subs and music, so forgive the lame question for those of you who already use them. This is particularly true with larger musical ensembles in larger music venues: The frequencies that define the dimensions of the auditorium are much lower than the lowest frequencies of most of the musical instruments involved. If you want a credible re-creation of the sound of the performance in its auditorium, which includes infrasonic content that defines the dimensions of the performance venue plus the energy that defines the venue and the performance, you will get that only with one or more subwoofers that can re-create the dimensions and energy of that venue. The lowest frequencies generated by the instruments involved is irrelevant; it’s the re-creation of the infrasonic energy of the venue that puts you squarely in the performance. Many of the omnidirectional microphones used for recording in such environments capture frequencies below 10 Hz. This is how deep plummeting subwoofers can augment even solo classical guitar performances. Go to http://www.tonepublications.com/magazine/toneaudio-magazine-26/ and read the review of a pair of JL Gotham subwoofers and you'll see what I'm talking about. |
Century home. Have thought about digging out the basement numerous times but my Better Half is dead set against it. My son is 6'4" so he barely fits. I'm 6'2 so I fit no probs. Good luck with your sub search. I have a JL Audio and love it. |
Thanks tangramca.................wow, 6'5"................I thought MINE were low!!........Hope you're not a basketball player :)..............I think I'll give Vandersteen a call next week, describe my room layout and ask them their opinion. Might as well talk to the guys that built my speakers :0.......If they think it's a go, I'll give it a shot........I'll buy used, if it doesn't work out, resell and take a small loss just for the experience.......... Agreed, most of the responses are for subs, rather than against.
Audio is my sole form of electronic entertainment now, gave up TV/movies a while back. Winter is coming, long cold days and nights. Might as well pump the system up :)
You need to jack that house up a couple feet brother, give that system room to breath!! LOL |
I went from a 2.1 to a 2.0 system and then added the sub back to the system! Honestly, the frequency response of the speaker may be accurately reported by the manufacturer but as pointed out in other posts, the sub gives the system bloom. My floorstanders are pretty much full range but I crossover at 80 Hz, which is a common recommendation for good reason - it sounds the best in my system. I am now on the hunt for a second sub to add to my system to take it up to 2.2. My room isn’t huge: basement man cave measuring about 20’X20’ but with ceilings only 6.5’. I will add that it doesn’t matter what type of music you play; they all benefit from a sub. Acoustic guitar right through to full on electronica. True, some people are never satisfied with the integration of a sub into their system but I sense that their are more happy 2.1 campers than not. |
Mr. Schroeder
Uh, yeah, my speakers, my whole kit is well under a hundred K, maybe a third of that...........I'm a champagne taste, beer budget guy...............My friends would call my system extravagantly expensive, crazy even, but they're not audiophiles, so they have different priorities :) In audiophile land, it's a very nice system, but hardly stratospheric.........but I get your point and I am looking into the addition of a sub or subs to compliment what I have.......just not sure if I can make a sub work, given my room layout.............I can do anything I need to with the room, but the construction is what it is, can't close up doorways, etc.. :) |
There are very, very few speakers under $100K that would not benefit significantly from subs. So, if your 3's are under $100K, then you could use subs. :) |
Interesting arguments for subs folks. I'm going to put at least one, possibly two on my short list. I'm guessing that the Vandy subs might work the best with my 3A's, but as has been pointed out, there are others that seem to work very well also.
Saw a pair of 2wq's on ebay not long ago for a decent price. I'll take another look. Used might be a good way to go, less expensive and if I'm not happy with them I could probably resell and get most of my money back.
Don't know any other a-philes personally except a buddy down south, so I don't get much opportunity to hear other systems............Nearest high end shops are about 80-100 miles away, Baltimore and DC, which makes them inconvenient unless I want to commit a day to "shopping". Haven't done that for a while, might be a fun way to spend a day..........and $$$.
My listening room is 14x23x7'8"..........not huge, but big enough for decent audio. In your experiences is that "enough" room for a sub, subs?.........I also don't have usable corners for placement. Three of the four corners have open doorways. The fourth is occupied by a 500 pound aquarium...............not the easiest thing to move.............All the above might make proper setup for subs problematic, maybe impossible, I don't know.
Your experiences are extremely helpful and appreciated, thanks. |
Low frequencies are part of natural ambience that's everywhere, and subs bring that stuff to the room...not simply the low notes, although clearly that's a good thing, but the sense of reality that's part of live sound. I use 2 RELs with a small tube amp driving efficient speakers, and it sounds like real music. |
Well, maybe the Speaker can go down to 26 Hz,
but your source, amp, and all PCs, ICs, and SCs will need to carry that clean and low of a signal to get you that 26 Hz to your ear. Also, If the bass player/musician, or the music you listen to is not playing below 26 Hz, then you are not missing out on anything.
O/w, 26 is just a number.
That said, I have some Dynaudio Contour floorstanding speakers that go down 32-35Hz. But I still felt like I was missing something, missing the “presence” of the band and the music.
I’m not an HT guy, but I found that using just one quality sub, placed b/w my Dynaudios for music listening, gave me that extra LFE that allows me to feel like I am more present “in the room/venue” with the band.
I use a Zu Audio Undertone, a sealed sub that down to 14 Hz or so. That is more than I need, but the sub is so good that it has pretty seamless integration. Besides, I’m only integrating LFEs, which are more omnidirectional.
So, I would makes sure all your gear upstream is good enough to produce LFEs down to 26 Hz and you are listening to music frequently enough that goes past 26 Hz. If that is the case, and you are still unsatisfied, then check out some high quality subs that are robust under 26 Hz, like the Zu Audio sub.
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I concur with soix Once I finally got a pair of Velodyne HGS-10s integrated with my KEF LS50s, it opened up the sound so large orchestrations that had been the downfall of the LS50s are presented convincingly. Adding the subs changed the entire experience. I use a Velodyne SMS-1 bass manager to low-pass the subs at 50 Hz with a 24 dB slope to minimize overlap; the SMS-1 also provides acoustic room correction. The LS50s are driven by an Ayre VX-5 Twenty amp, the HGS-10s by the SE outputs of a KX-5 Twenty preamp.
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Subs can be great for music, though agree proper set up is crucial. I had great success with Vandersteen 3A and Genesis sub some years ago... |
As a prior owner of the 3a sigs and 2wq subs, I can attest to the benefit of adding subs, especially Vandersteen. Remember, using Vandy subs will allow your amp to work more efficiently when coupled with either the fixed or variable crossover.
If it were me, I would consider changing speaker cables to Audioquest. The GO-4 is relatively inexpensive and they work wonders with Vandersteen. A local dealer might have a set for you to trial.
When in doubt, contact John Rutan (audioconnection- his Agon moniker). He knows Vandersteen and can give you the best info, and not try to sell you something.
Bob |
I used to be in the @williewonka camp, but I've since gained a much deeper appreciation for what subs bring to the table after hearing demos in a couple different systems. Both systems were high end with expensive full-range speakers, and in both instances the systems started out with subs engaged and sounded fantastic. Then the subs were turned off and it was amazing how much changed. Obviously bass dynamics were not as impactful, but what was really surprising was that in both cases there was a significant reduction in perceived air and space, and the whole soundstage compressed and sounded like it had a lot of the life just sucked out of it. I had no desire to listen to either system without the subs after that. I can't explain exactly why subs seem to significantly impact aspects of sound other than just bass, but they do. Anyway, for those who still think subs are there to create rumble and handle pipe organs should seriously think again. And with the growing number of processors out there to take the pain out of sub integration this has become a no brainer for me. Plus there are direct sellers like SVS that give you a 45-day trial period so you can see if I'm a liar with little or no risk. There's a reason Wilson builds $25,000 subs, and it ain't just to pair with Duettes or Sabrinas. Anyway, FWIW. |
Thanks for the inputs folks................I remember some years ago with a dealer demoing a small pair of B&W speakers and an attached sub. I listened for a bit and then had him turn off the sub. There was a difference, but not earth shaking and I doubt the monitors could get much below 50-60 hz without the sub running. I guess on most music what I'm getting from the 3A's is about as good as it NEEDS to be 90% of the time.
Don't really need to hear the semi rolling by the studio outside :)
I'll play with my setup and treatments a bit and see if there's more to be gained in that respect...........Cheap and easy way out...............Maybe I'll keep an eye on Ebay for some Vandy subs..........Christmas is coming :)
Happy listening!! |
Worth it?
Your speaker designer / manufacture certainly thinks so. Even though some of his speaker are equipped with separate equalized low frequency systems they are often showed with his outboard subwoofers and has just introduced a new model. Vandersteen and his dealers understand low frequency reproduction. An outboard Vandy sub will be compatible with your 3As and any future Vandersteen mains upgrade. You can't lose.
-3dB @26Hz.
Most rooms need that -3dB compensated for. Your room may need a flat low frequency or an increase of +db. The main speakers locations are usually not the best locations for low frequency output to integrate with the room despite the speakers designed ability. The room usually dictates where the location of low frequency origination should be. These locations usually provide a better response at the listening position and a reduction in the rooms bass nodes.
What can you can expect?
If setup properly you should hear very little difference until you turn the sub/s off. The low frequencies will integrate with your speakers and you should hear improved separation. Integration with your room in the form of seamless increased low frequency gain as it was recorded and not falling off. You'll be surprised at the amount of low frequency that is actually recorded on a variety of recordings. Hearing it well presented in your room is what the subwoofer does.
Lastly, its simply way more fun. |
IMO, it will depend on your room size.( Very large and it is a definite, very small...maybe not so much-or at all) With Vandy 3A's, I believe you could certainly get some nice bottom end extension and an increase in dynamic portrayal with a smallish and decent sub. I would think a REL or a JL. Like another member stated above, room acoustic treatment will be beneficial and I would add that first. I would start out with one sub, as adding two is a much more difficult set-up and may not be necessary in your room and for your tastes. |
@shadowcat2016 .... Mostly just wondering how a sub or subs would improve/change what I’m hearing now since I’ve never experienced it in my system. Based on your musical tastes and your components/cables... - if the subs are setup "correctly: - i.e. to augment the Vandi’s - then I doubt the subs would provide too much of an improvement, because "normal music" seldom has frequencies below 26Hz anyway - however, if you are after "true realism" e.g. to hear the LFE’s of a truck rolling past the recording venue (sometimes present on live concert recordings) then the subs "may provide" some benefit. Adding subs on a two channel system such as your own is all a matter of personal preference. FYI - my speakers are rated at 28Hz and I hear the trucks rolling by on a couple of recordings, so I have never considered adding subs. I also like Pipe Organ music, which already shakes the walls, so again - no need for subs LFE’s, which is what subs are really designed to reproduce, are not really present in most music - unless you like to hear the Digital Cannons at their absolute best on the Telarc version of the 1812 overture :-) If I had an urge to see what LFE’s were present in music I would probably opt to upgrade to a speaker that can handle a lower frequency, simply because the designers have gone to the trouble of ensuring a flat frequency response. It saves me the time and effort of setting up sub’s, which, from what I have experienced and read, most people find "challenging" Personally, I would spend all that cash elswhere. Regards - Steve |
Evening gentlemen.....or ladies, if that be the case :)
My musical tastes run from a to z, classic rock, oldies, blues, folk, classical, new age, world music, country ...depends on the mood of the moment.
Speaker cables are by Bryston. 9 or 10 ga., don't remember now, but beefy. Speakers are horizontally bi amped. Bryston 4BST feeding the lows, Bryston B-100 feeding the mids and highs.........Bryston amps are known for being good bass amps, so I don't think that's an issue.
Enginedr
I've been reading about the advantages of multiple subs lately. Not sure I have the room space to accommodate that setup, but it sounds like the way to go if you do.
Again, not saying my bass is weak, boomy, etc.........not the case. It's deep, solid and to my ears clean.............Mostly just wondering how a sub or subs would improve/change what I'm hearing now since I've never experienced it in my system. |
The need for subs is the room not the speakers . Power cords and speaker cables are not going to fix a room . Read Dr Earl Geddes white paper on distrusted bass . Yes subs are worth it if used properly .. I use 4 subs .Most people think I am nuts until the hear my room . |
@shadowcat2016 - what kind of music do you like to listen to?
The Vandersteen’s have a pretty good bass response.
The low B string on a 5/6string bass guitar is 31 Hz.
A low end of 26 Hz is in synth territory.
Below 26 Hz is more an LFE that A/V systems pump out.
So I have to ask - do you think the speakers are not perofrming to your satisfaction?
What speaker and power cables are you using? they could be a limiting factor for your speakers or worse your amp.
Regards - Steve
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Thanks Eric...........My room/bass is already pretty good and much better since I added panels, but they're not bass traps, per se. Three of the 4 corners in that room have open door ways, the forth corner is directly adjacent to a window, so the typical corner traps can't be done. I have 3 inch deep traps straddling the wall/ceiling junctions around the room and that did help a lot...................seems I read somewhere that an open corner/doorway IS a bass trap, probably more of a drain than a trap, so maybe I already have them :)................being an audiophile is a PITA......we're never really satisfied, always looking for MORE.............Maybe I should just stop and enjoy the music :) |
Worth the price yes. Worth the trouble.... :)
Another story. Integrating subs well is rarely done, and hard to do.
My recommendation is first, treat your room acoustics well. Contact GIK for advice. This may improve your speaker bass so much you no longer are interested. :)
Best,
E |
