The quality of materials has improved markedly, but the philosophy of physics determining good speaker design remains conflicting among manufacturers. Therefore what to believe is lost to the consumer.
Shortening this complex topic to cardinal violations interfering with waveform reproduction: 1. cone drivers containing coils for midranges and higher, 2. sharp edges producing diffraction. 3. symmetry of driver placement, 4. passive crossovers with large value components, most containing coils, 5. improper impedance mismatched lead-in connections, 6. use of cheap copper alloys in the connections, etc, etc
If you think this excludes almost all speakers, then it should come as no surprise why few have heard the remarkable phenomena of when the artist appears in the listening room. It is a jaw dropping, if not a life changing, experience. That good.
Your answer to this simply boils down to: 1. Alot of study and hard work building your own, or 2. spending an extreme fortune, which is still not guaranteed to solve your problem.
I went with #1, followed the rules of physics, avoided the violations, a few of which were stated above, and achieved the performer-in-your-listening-room result. So it works. It was also a 30 year project.
There are alot of good responses in thie thread. Take every one of them.
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@larryi --
+1
Advance in tech only gets you so far when the overall package of a speaker is diminished in size; it’s the one thing we can’t miniaturize without severe sonic implications. Like on the driver side: a several thousand $$ 1" dome tweeter is still a 1" dome tweeter, the same with an expensive 6 1/2" woofer, etc. I’ve read Mr. Atkinson’s and others from Stereophile’s praise of Edgar Villchur’s AR-1 speakers and what it initiated, and while we see the ramifications of the acoustic suspension design of his flourishing in its basics to this day - the success of which they’re so eager to bow to - one shouldn’t equate smaller speakers with their being the better sounding alternative, as much at least as their widespread domestic success while fitting the narrative of an "audiophile" magazine’s paradigm or dogma even that has more or less banished large, high efficiency speakers decades ago.
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@larryi
Most of the advances in the last 60 years have been to make speakers more compact rather than to improve sound.
Like everything else these days design has to be market led. I recall a well known designer explaining how a new design begins with whatever the market seems to demand. In his case it was a slim compact floorstander. So right from the bat there were serious sonic compromises involved (thankfully his company do produce a larger more substantial model as well).
Therefore it's good to see that Andrew Jones is able to finally cut loose a little on a design such as the MoFi SourcePoint 10. I guess their feeling is that there is room in the market for a direct challenge to the likes of Tannoy etc.
It's certainly going to be interesting to see what Jones/MoFi offer next.
Earlier speakers that were all out assaults on sound quality were gigantic in size.
The advent of stereo made them even more impractical.
Shrinking the size became even more sensible when the transistor made higher powered amps needed for smaller speakers (lower in efficiency) cheaper to produce.
Good points, especially the first one.
Whatever people think of speakers like the Klipsch La Scala, there's no denying the fact that they make most other loudspeakers sound positively anemic and puny.
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@moonwatcher I agree you summed it up well. While the original problem by the OP didn't inspire me to get serious, the comments made it one of the most educational thread for me.
I think it's easier than ever to put together a horrible sounding system from a lot of money. It's also easy to buy a pair of cheap, active, wireless speakers and play music from your phone and get incredible sound. Technology can improve a lot, it's up to us how we adapt. Advances can make products cheaper, more accessible, easier to use, more accurate, longer-lasting, "faster", easier to integrate, etc. - if we are looking for sound quality improvement, it's on the list but just one of the many areas.
And I think there is truth companies trying to sell new releases for the sake of making money. Not in the audio business specifically but in the tech space in general. Saying that they are all honest is unfortunately way too optimistic. I have upgraded my phone 3 times in the last 10 years and I see so little improvement, I would be just as happy with my 2012 version as with the latest. But of course I don't spend 6 hours with my phone a day (only 4, haha!)
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Most of the advances in the last 60 years have been to make speakers more compact rather than to improve sound. Earlier speakers that were all out assaults on sound quality were gigantic in size. The advent of stereo made them even more impractical. Shrinking the size became even more sensible when the transistor made higher powered amps needed for smaller speakers (lower in efficiency) cheaper to produce. But, you can take the drivers in some of these very old systems and build extremely good systems that can easily rival the best modern systems if you have the money and the space. I’ve heard a few, but I don’t have that kind of space or money. One of the was almost five feet wide, 4 feet seep and nine feet tall; one only saves on amp space because one can drive this thing to ear-splitting levels with a couple of watts.
As to The new Mo-fi speaker, which I’ve heard and found very impressive, it is very much old-school in many respects: paper cone, pleated surround, silk fabric dome for the co-axial tweeter. The only thing “new” is the 30-year or so practice of using neodymium magnets. Also, it is very large for a stand-mounted speaker, and this is very much and old school approach to sound quality.
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I think that @moonwatcher has just about said it all, and I agree.
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Many are speaking of changes as if they are advances. Many changes are not advances or are seen later as not advances. Changes can be a form of confirmation bias especially for those who devise them but also for unwary punters. It can take time to verify if a change is an advance.
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Technology HAS made speakers better. Today's modest bookshelf speakers are light years ahead of most bookies say of 40 years ago. But the basic technology used most often (a flapping piece of paper driven by a magnetic motor) hasn't changed. However, as others note, the materials technology has changed a bunch. Neodymium magnets, stiffer but lighter materials, the knowledge of how to properly brace a speaker cabinet to eliminate coloring resonances using computer simulations, and yes, computer simulations that can drastically cut down on the number of prototypes needed to be built so that the designers can get it "right"
the first time.
For instance, compare any speaker from 1982 that cost about $1200/pair with Andrew Jones' Sourcepoint 10 here in 2022 at $3600. The relative value, allowing for inflation, is the same.
But that doesn't mean you have to upgrade every 5 or 10 years. Buy what you can feel comfortable with, but then just enjoy it for at least 15 or even 20 years.
The increments in sound quality increases are small but over 20 years they can add up. Or at the very least, make quality sound available at prices no one would have dreamed of back in 1982.
The only reason to change is if you desire something else - a sonic signature change as it were. If that is the real impetus behind your wanting to "change" then go for it and make yourself happy. Life is short. Listen all you can.
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@drbarney1
@kenjit
It saddens me to hear how cynical you have become. Certainly there are some companies that operate this way. But a much larger proportion are driven by true desire to create better products… or in some cases driven by other companies besting them.
I have worked in the high tech industry for nearly forty years at companies supplying cutting edge components for high end audio and electronic devices… Burr-Brown (leader in DACs and Other high end audio components), Texas Instruments, and Sharp Corporation. I know hundreds of engineers, marketing managers, and executives. There is tremendous pressure to advance… but the prerequisite is performance, period. You just cannot pretty stuff up, false market it and stay in business in the high end.
Most of the electronic devices you own… including the GPS system in your car I have had a hand in bringing to you. The hundreds of thousands of people that have done this are by the greatest margin hard working honest people doing the best for themselves and their companies to bring the very best possible. As you move down into very budget oriented stuff… things change… still a lot of work, but more marketing, less innovation. I have encountered that environment as well.
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"Most important component in a system is the speakers"
The most important component in your system is your worst component :)
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@mbmi wrote:
One thing no one ever mentions when talking about speakers....Speakers have voice coils and they take up to 30 minutes to heat up and expand. THAT’S when you’ll hear the optimal sound from that speaker...not until. People will run their electronics to warm them up but always when doing so......run the signal at low volume thru your speakers....after 20 - 30 minutes , then do your serious listening. This is according to Steve Deckert. And he’s Right. The sound clanges pretty dramatically after about 20 min. Try It.
I've gone over this phenomenon at quite a few junctures here, so glad to see you bringing this up. Personally I find it takes elevated volume levels for about an hour or more to bring about the proper heat-up effect of the voice coils to have the speakers open up and loosen more fully, but being my main speakers + subs are high efficiency with bigger voice coils it might explain why this process takes a bit longer and requires more volume. In any case it's an important aspect of system warm-up to be aware of apart from thinking of electronics alone.
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There are no advances in speakers. But companies have to sell in order to make a profit so they have to keep on producing so called better speakers. The reality is most speakers are just wooden boxes with drivers in them. It has been that way for decades but the public have been duped.
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If a manufacturer tries to masterbate the economy with upgrades every few years or even months, should we trust them to make their designs a labor of love? I don't trust manipulative people or corporations. There is too much fraud and snake oil in the audio business: claims that millimeter differences in signal path distances in speaker cables "smear" the signal traveling at the speed of light, skin effect which attenuates speaker signal current only a few hundredths of a decibel at frequencies slightly above human hearing vs DC current, "golden ratio" litz construction of power cables, and battery biased interconnects.
Compare your system's sound to what you hear in a live concert hall and follow the advice everyone else gave on this question.
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The rest of my signal chain is in great shape. I invested quite well in all the stuff supporting the speakers and i can now accommodate superior Magico speakers.
My philosophy is to avoid the upgrade cycle by buying top of the line products. My speakers were not top of the line and I need to change this.
Most important component in a system is the speakers which are supported by a cast of characters that live in a rabbit hole.
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@op - you would be far better off spending the price difference on upgrading the rest of your signal chain than going from D3 to D4 B&Ws.
If you are thinking about Magico, you should also listen to Wilson and Borresen for further points of comparison.
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You not only MUST upgrade often, you have to come here and tell everyone ad nauseam what you bought and how great it is so others can see how smart and sensitive you are. I do this, and everyone thinks I'm great. See? It works!
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No question about the amazing performance of Magico…. very fast and detailed. But watch out what you pair them with… they also reveal upstream flaws, hardness, and hash really well.
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One thing no one ever mentions when talking about speakers....Speakers have voice coils and they take up to 30 minutes to heat up and expand. THAT’S when you’ll hear the optimal sound from that speaker...not until. People will run their electronics to warm them up but always when doing so......run the signal at low volume thru your speakers....after 20 - 30 minutes , then do your serious listening. This is according to Steve Deckert. And he’s Right. The sound clanges pretty dramatically after about 20 min. Try It.
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you mean you want big and expensive speakers? Those are the best! Everybody knows it!
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Maybe I buy Magico speakers. Always been curious about those. The really expensive ones are really big.
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@jurnia
look at it the other way: what will validate it for you that you DON'T need to upgrade? Get some fancy speakers from Crutchfield, try them out and maybe you will find out how madly in love you are with your B&Ws
@kingbr I am somewhat confused with the Dyna names but you may be right :)
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So maybe I can upgrade my B&w 802 d3 to d4. Not sure they're all that much better but I may do it. Hate getting rid of the d3 speakers, maybe I can put them in the back of the room as rare speakers.
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@grislybutter you know what's funny? I posted about my experience on Excite vs Evoke and someone replied "maybe the name of the lines is even more appropriate than it would seem". BRILLIANT observation! I found that to be incredibly ironic and insightful! AND TRUE😁!
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@kingbr
I can relate, I have had the Evoke 20s for a year and a half and I couldn't be happier! Pure magic.
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Yes speaker cabinets made out of High-Graphite Cast Iron !
All New JERN 35 Monitors that has a bass output down to 30 Hz from a very small speaker !
http://www.jernspeakers.com/
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Love this thread, talk that makes sense. No endless dribble about cables and bye Products that really mean nothing. The meat and potatoes of a system…speakers. I’ve a late model IRS system that’s been refurbished to spec and beyond, still a very big player. If you’ve the space for big go big, age means nothing IMO. A lot of trinkets and junk out there filling in the void of real technology, and sadly systematically filling manufacturers pockets with the Gullible‘s money.
Cheers
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When you think of technological advancements within the realm of dynamic speakers I don't think much has happened of consequence. Yes, drivers and crossover components have undergone technological transformation over the past several decades but these do not necessarily mean that speakers employing such refinements will automatically outperform those without them. For example, there are lots of speakers with fairly old school paper cone woofers and mids coupled with traditional soft dome tweeters that will give those with exotic drivers a run for their money (I know, I own a pair). The place where technological improvements are best realized is with planer, electrostatic, or omni-directional designs that employ different materials and approaches to playback of recorded sound. Speakers that employ approaches different from a bunch of dynamic drivers in a box are where one best sees significant sonic gains from new or novel technologies. Just MHO.
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Difficult question.
They probably are better generally all things being equal, but the difference might not be as much as you're being told.
My Tannoy Berkeley's were built in 1978 and I'd say they still outperform 90% of speakers built today. But they were a fairly high end design back in the 1970s.
On the other I had a pair of Heybrook HB1s back in the late 1980s and I doubt whether the £170 cost back then would amount to more than £500 today.
What I don't doubt is that the HB1s would hold their own against anything this side of £500 today.
Of course both those speakers were pretty special for their time and no doubt there was a lot of crud back then too.
So perhaps it's fairer to say, mainly because of advances in measurements and testing, that there's just a lot less rubbish out there today?
If I was you, I wouldn't bother with any supposedly incremental upgrade.
When the time comes you might want to look at something that promises a serious undeniable improvement. Depending upon what you have already it could be something from B&Ws own speaker lineup or a different brand.
@jnovak
The next time you're at a hi fi show walk past a pair of $100.000.00 speakers and have yourself a little chuckle.
Quite true.
But preferably not in front of its designer if you can help it.
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I had an older set of BMW 804s, my ex stereo shop repaired them with not matching or original parts. Hopefully not because they didn't care but due to age had to use what was available. Shop for new speakers that give your ears what they need
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My Lotus Alon (2004) are open baffle tweeter and midrange with enclosed woofer and my Decware/ Caintuck Lii 15 in. open baffle speakers are "different sounding" ...I wouldn't say the sound better that my Tecktons or Klipsch Heresy IV's....just different....Which speakers are hooked up most of the time....Not the open baffle speakers.....they just lack something in the "Heft" department.
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I probably missed it above since this is a really long string, but the open baffle speaker is a technology that’s now getting a lot of focus from a few really good designers. Steve Guttenberg, New Record Day and Thomas and Stereo on YouTube have reviewed some notable ones.
I switched to open baffle for both my tower speakers and subwoofer about a year ago and it’s stunningly good. Both GR-Research kits.
The theory is that the lack of back pressure in the cabinet allows the drivers to react faster without overshooting.
Everyone who has heard mine want them.
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@jumia I'll share my story and hope this helps. 23+ years ago when I got into the higher end I auditioned, bought, sold many different speakers for my HT/Audio system (PSB, Definitve Tech, Paradigm, B&W). Once I was introduced to Dynaudio Audience (their entry line back then) I was absolutely blown away by their sound. I had no idea music could ever sound that good. I was done my journey was finally over (ironically the Dynaudio's replaced my B&W CDM NT's which at that time were the best I had heard). After long periods of listening, I found the B&W's to be a bit too bright for my liking. That's when a fellow enthusiast suggested Dynaudio. As soon as I heard that sweet, warm Dynaudio sound I was instantly hooked!
Well after a divorce forced me to sell my house and my rig I was out of the hobby for a very long time. A few years ago, I was back in a situation that allowed me to build a new system and get back in the "game" if you will. So, no auditioning right to Dynaudio Excite (their second level up). Got my new system up and running and expecting to pick up right where I left off 20 years ago. Except my hopes were even higher with the advanced technologies, the next level up in their line, my expectations were extremely high. Now although the sound was amazing, it wasn't quite what I remembered. I found the Excites to be a bit on the brighter side. What the hell happened to that warm sound of Dynaudio? I was a bit let down. Something was missing, something was different when did Dynaudio become more bright leaning than warm? Maybe it was my ears (and maybe it is as I am a lot older now and I've put some hard miles on my ears😬) but I just could not escape that this wasn't what I remembered. So once the Evoke line came out I had heard such great things and went and auditioned. Found they were definitely closer to that Dynaudio sound I remembered back in the day. I also listened to some others this time like Sonus Faber, B&W, Focal. Still found the Danes to be more to my liking. I sold the Excite's and went with Evoke. Though it's definitely closer to what I remember nothing to date has been able to match the magic of the Audience line. I'm very happy and content don't get me wrong, but to date I have not been able to find anything that reaches that very high bar that Audience set...
Point is newer, bigger, more expensive, more advanced, does not mean better. I'd trade what I have now for those Audience 82's, 122C, and 52's in a second...I have not found anything that makes me feel like I did when listening to my Dynaudio Audience. You know the old saying "They just don't make things like they used to"? I'm thinking you can certainly apply that to audio...
Hope this helps my friend....
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I have a friend who has a very very good system, his speakers are old Wharfedale, I always wonder how much more improvement he will get, if he will upgrade his speakers? I once ask him ? If he is considering new speakers? He said never ? I like his response because he is happy with his speakers why change?
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Manufacturers have to replenish their lines for marketing reasons alone. The technology has not significantly improved or even changed in decades.
Spend your money only if you are looking at a significant upgrade in performance, otherwise keep saving your money until you can do so or you will never get there. You should not budge until you can afford to spend at least three times what your current system cost and even then you have to be very careful not to make a sideways move.
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For me, the best therapy for Audiophilia Nervosa is to attend an audio show. I've been to two of them pre-covid (AXPONA & Tampa) and the Pacific Audio Fest (PAF) in July. This is where you can get a broad overview of new stuff and how it sounds.
In my case I'm running a pair of Thiel CS6 speakers, Velodyne sub, and a Krell KSA 300S amp with a Krell KRC2 preamp - all dating from the mid 90's.The rest of my system is nothing exotic (KI Ruby SACD, Blue Jeans cables). I can safely tell you that very few systems at the PAF, with many costing over 6 figures, sounded as good as my system. There were a few systems that outshined mine is tonality, detail, and imaging but I left most rooms thinking that my system sounded better. There were many rooms where the cabling was worth more than my entire system and the sound was certainly not spectacular compared to my system.
My answer to your original question is that, in my experience, audio has not come all that far in the last 30 years unless you spend big bucks. At AXPONA I heard a pair of Von Schweikert Ultra 11's ($325,000) in a system that was valued at over a million dollars. The sound was incredible and it was definitely better than my system in pretty much every way. But when I got home and played some of the same demo songs I was shocked at how well my system held up. The speakers that blew me away were MBL 101 E Mk II ($80k). This is one case where a different technology really is a step forward. IMO everyone should hear these speakers if they possibly can.
At PAF I made notes of which demo songs were played in which room and as I played those songs on my setup after I got home I was somewhat incredulous that most of the time my system sounded at least as good or better than systems costing hundreds of thousands of dollars. Yes, I know that show conditions are not great for demoing high end systems but my listening room is certainly nothing special (have no dedicated room treatment).
I'm a big proponent of going to an audio show if you can possibly swing it. It will exponentially expand your knowledge and experience base and it's just plain fun. If you really want to hear if all the hoopla around "new" audio technologies is justified it's the best way to do it.
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Try to relax. Unless you dislike your sound then why be influenced to change? I have had my present loudspeakers 17 years and every once in a while I demo other speakers and have not found anything I really wanted to purchase. I greatly enjoy the sound I am still getting from my Von Schweikerts. Quality construction with a good design is timeless.
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In my environs cars are seen as accessories or jewelry even. "Nuff said.
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Marketing plays on all of us no matter how much you think it doesn't.
Just ask my wife how she likes the Home Shopping Network!
Should have blocked that sheeit the first time I heard of it. Sheesh!
Only >100 pair of shoes later....................I still buy the gear I want.
Regards,
barts
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Of course it does! B&W, Meridian, Paradyme and others are using super materials such as diamond, beryllium to enhance mid and high range. As my hearing goes down, the reproduction is getting better and better. Today, thanks to new technology, I have the entire Berlin philharmonic under Karajan in my living room.
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kota1...I’m not being naive at all....wrong take. I’m stating MY opinion and that’s what these forums are about...You’ve got your opinion and I’ve got mine. I’m very satisfied with mine... I don’t have all chinese gear...only a few pieces...but oh...the value I get out of those is exceptional...Yes, you have to be careful but you also can’t judge All chinese products as junk...They make some pretty sophisticated electronics at very Reasonable pricing. I know the china bashers are here in force....but for open minded audiophile types...there are some fantastic values. PS. I don’t like Chinese speakers..Mine are Teckton...Klipsch Heritage...JBL...and Nola.
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Except for my Node2i and DAC, I own 'vintage' gear'. Why? One: I can afford it and Two: I like the way my gear sounds. That said...
I recently went to the Pacific Audio Fest and, as expected, I heard some great sounding products. (And some 'meh', TBH) Now, all of this gear by definition was 'new' with the latest in materials and technology. And yet, I didn't leave feeling the overwhelming need to upgrade everything. Even if I had an unlimited audio budget, I didn't feel the need to tear out all my old gear to get the latest kit. Why?
I'm happy with the sound I have. And that IMHO is the question you should be asking yourself: Are you happy with your current source/DAC/speakers/cables/etc.? If you are not, and you're willing to part with the requisite amount of funds to get something you feel is better then my all means, go shopping. But if you're sitting with a glass of wine and enjoying the music, why get on the upgrade treadmill?
Anyways, I'm not trying to be a killjoy here. I'm merely suggesting that you take a good look/listen where you are first. If you can arrange an audition in your home with your gear for comparison, so much the better.
Happy listening.
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@mbmi , disagree about the value of products that don't come from China provide.
I think no country has exclusivity on value, your statement is really naive.
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European and American made gear is overpriced versus comparable Chinese gear from a handful of high quality Chinese mfgers like Line Magnetic...Audio-gd and Denafrips....It's not All junk coming out of that country. Can't afford Mac...Pass....etc. There are alternatives that are their SQ equal available for less $$. You're just not getting that LOGO on the gear ( which some people Must pay extra for).....to each his own. Again....look at the American and European "Reviews" of Higher quality chinese gear.......You don't have to be wealthy to get "wealthy sound"....Welcome back Millercarbon. ( I love my Pendragons with that 7 tweeter array)
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Good horn loaded speakers were designed & made in the 40’s, 50’s &60’s(Klipsch, Western Electric, Altec), electrostatics in the 50’s, Good acoustic suspension & ported woofers in the 50’s & 60’s, (AR, KLH, Advent, JBL) AMT tweeters from the early 70’s (ESS), good planars & ribbons in the 70’s & 80’s (Magnapan , Infinity)good dome midrange driver in the late 70’s (ATC), good full range driver in the 70’s ( Ohm) to name just some of the technology that have all stood the test of time.
Cabinet technology, crossover design & component quality, internal wiring & binding post improvements have all added incremental sound improvements but unfortunately at often substantial cost increases beyond simple inflationary reasonability.
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Sometimes the latest, greatest super duper material that supposed to be better than the previous version turns out to be a dog ten years down the road. One of the best things I like about B&W is that their old speakers hold up and sound great YEARS later. OP, stick with what you have! The next time you're at a hi fi show walk past a pair of $100.000.00 speakers and have yourself a little chuckle. Joe
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If one likes the quite processed sound quality of B&W speakers, their various design iterations have been getting better.
If one doesn't, they've been getting worse.
Better spanners don't necessarily make a better mechanic.
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I agree Jerry, and +1 on the election returns.
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@roxy54...either way, it worked. ;)
The baseline is still ones' perceptions about the devices being questioned having improved over time, and whether 'trickle down' works to 'lift all boats'...so to speak.
There always seems to be 'exceptions to the rules' in pricing v. performance in what seems to be any given (examples stated...or not) in nearly anything proposed.
Specs get poo-pooed, blind tests questioned as to veracity, 'new' gets greeted with huzzas or bronx cheers, 'old' is 'quaint' and needs new this, that, or dumpstered.
One can toss the towel and just enjoy what you've got until you don't, and return to the upgrade treadmill at the price point you pick.
Please carry on, though....tired of watching and trying to ignore the election returns. ;)
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Is it wrong to apply the wife/girlfriend analogy that if it still feels good/sounds good just, for Christ’s sake, thank your lucky stars for your good fortune and enjoy.
Employ some Zen thinking and be satisfied for awhile.
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