For all those who used computers and say that streamers are better, what DAC did you use in conjunction with computer? Could it be that the DAC in the streamer is better than what you used when using a computer as file source? So what you are hearing is not computer vs streamer, but different DACs.
Also was the computer spinning disc or solid state?
I stand by my "total garbage" indications above. Great ad hominem, BTW. LOL!
Re jitter, the article below suggests that jitter is a red herring in the vast majority of contemporary DACs.
https://audioxpress.com/article/audio-electronics-is-digital-jitter-really-a-problem#:~:text=For%20a%20given%20amount%20of,%2C%20but%201.0%25%20at%2010kHz.
Even if you don't like Winer, the question of audibility deserves consideration. Happy to hear other well-informed, data-driven opinion on that matter.
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@impaler
Moon Mind2 player can be found used for around $1K+
Bryston BDP-3 for around $1.5K but those have been discontinued so the price might start to drop.
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Do you have a CD player? If you do it is a worthwhile exercise to compare the sound of a CD to the streamed equivalent. Just make sure the CD and the strreaming version are the same.
I'm using an ASUS ROG gaming laptop as my streamer and running it through a Berkeley Reference DAC using the Berkeley USB unit. I have a Jay's Audio CD3 MkIII transport. I have compared numerous CDs with their Qobuz counterparts and they sound identical to me. If there is some sort of noise or hash coming out of my PC it isn't enough to be audible on my system with my ears.
Even though they sound the same I'm going to buy a dedicated streamer soon primarily due to the convenience. However, I will be quite surprised if the streamed content actually sounds better than CD.
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You can do it all day with mac or windows as long as you use a great external DAC. Simple as that. BUT...lol...there's really no comparison to dedicated, purpose built hardware.
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Any recommendations in the $1k budget range?
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I too have been on the fence about investing in a dedicated streamer. Currently I'm using a Dell micro PC with a USB feed to a Schitt Bifrost DAC. From what I'm hearing, could I do better with the bespoke gear?
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I started streaming with a general use PC laptop, then went to stock Mac Mini, this setup to be used solely as streamer, therefore max services disabled, this was easily heard improvement over the laptop. Next was a newer generation mini, this one modded with Core Technologies LPS, now this was big improvement over the stock mini. Next was a newer yet generation mini, this one maxed out with fastest processor, most RAM, dual hard drive setup, OS on separate drive, Uptone MMK with Uptone JS-2 lps, again better than previous mini. Now I use custom build Windows/ATX board based streamer, this build all out along lines of Taiko, again much improvement over my most extreme mini.
Bottom line, stock computers leave much to be desired as audiophile streamers. They are noisy devices, even laptops with battery power, they may work as convenience streamers, but don't belong as audiophile source. Treat streaming with same care as vinyl source, anything less isn't a first class source.
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Not having used a computer for streaming, only a lowly Bluesound node, I also agree with the majority that a dedicated streamer likely sounds better.
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I use a MacBook Pro connected via USB to a Hermes DDC connected via I2S to a Pontus II. I think it sounds excellent. I had a HiFi Rose 250a before the Denafrips stack that sounded really good but not as good as the laptop and Denafrips. I recently purchased a WIIM Pro and tried that in place of the laptop. The laptop sounded better to my ears. I don’t doubt others when they say they hear a significant difference between laptop/computer and dedicated streamer but I have yet to better my current setup. I am interested in listening to a much higher end streamer, like an N200 to see if that makes the leap everyone keeps talking about.. I have a local shop that will loan me one to audition.
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We use an old MacBook Pro just for streaming. It runs to a Schitt Eitr and then to a MHDT DAC. Is it as good a sound as the CDP going through the DAC? No but its not bad. We mostly listen to NPR, WWOZ, and FlacBlues. No Spotify or other streaming services.
Occasionally we listen to hi rez files via ITunes.
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Definitely experiment with your cabling. The streamer you have should be blowing the water out of your PC.
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@jetter Trust me, that guy is probably the only one who would make such a bullying statement on Audiogon for now. Just ignore him. When a mad dog barks at you, do you bark back? No—you ignore it and walk away like nothing happened. It shouldn’t bother you or anyone else.
That said, to be fair, I moved from a fanless MacBook to a dedicated streamer and noticed a clear improvement in sound quality. There are affordable devices like the Wiim Pro/Plus on Amazon with a hassle-free return policy. It comes with GEQ/PEQ and room correction that probably only exists in much higher end streamer. Give one a try to see if your system reveals better sonic attributes...
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I have used both apple and pc as my sources. The quality of sound from my streamer is definitely superior if only due to how much cleaner the sound is without all the extra processing noise being generated by the cpu/sytem as it was being a cpu for other things not related to music...
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This is absolute garbage advice by someone who clearly has no idea what they’re talking about.
I don’t understand why anyone would call what someone else writes "absolute garbage" over something so trivial as a person giving their opinion that a computer is good versus a dedicated streamer.
Everyone is entitled to their own devices and opinions.
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You can use a computer but a good streamer with a dedicated LPS power supply ,and upgrade the signal using a ddc or reclocker ,this too applies to streamers it takes the digital signal ,holds it in a buffer then uses a much higher grade clock and filtering to create a much more pristine signal to your dac ,,
another added benefit is that you can run the best audio signal I2S cable from the reclocker. online they now have pretty decent USB to I2S converters if you just want to run it into your dac, depending just how good your dac cleans the incoming signal. for even the little linear power supply in your streamer cannot match what a good DDC can do . In mine I took it up a notch, and went from Femto clocks
to precision. dual Oven clocks ⏰,plus a lot of filtering , and isolation using I2S Cable from DDC to the dac ,a Big difference in musicality for just over $1k , if you have a more moderate system around $550 for a decent one ,,buy a respectable cable ,they look like a hdmi cables, Wireworld work well nothing under $70 like the Sphere ,or Silver Sphere around $270 , to me. A worth wild option , you can spend $10k on a ddc but that is overkill IMO,That being said ,I have heard $100k digital setups ,for people with Ultra budgets . Way out of my league even when I owned a Audio store.
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I use my old engineering ThinkPad P50 Xeon with Foobar2000 and an old Topping E30 to feed a Denon X4200W and Revel F208
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I used to use a Mac for streaming. However your limited not only with sound quality, but digitally. I think the most I got out of my Mac was 96khz 24bit. Dedicated streamer/dac will go 256, 512 and dsd files.So soix has it right.
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@yyzsantabarbara Out of curiosity, what dedicated streamers have you compared to your computer?
@soix The streamers that I used ALL used my computer so I cannot answer that. These are the streamers I owned.
- Lumin X1
- PlayBack Designs STREAM-IF
- Sonore OpticalRendu
- Sonore microRendu
- Direct USB into a DAC from a computer (a decade ago)
All of the above except the direct computer to the DAC used the ROON RATT protocol. My $500 DELL PC running ROON CORE (without monitor | keyboard | mouse) is under a bed in my guest bedroom connected to my home network by Ethernet (RJ45).
My computer automatically starts up at 7AM and shuts down at 2:30AM. In the rare case I need to get into the Windows OS, I just RDP in.
I do not care about the quality or noise on this computer because of my ’moat’ before the DAC.
If you look at how digital genius Andreas Koch designed the PBD STREAM-IF I would think it was meant for my scenario. The STREAM-IF uses a proprietary Plink connection which is essentially Fibre cable. That unit actually takes RJ45 as the input stream (or USB from a computer) but has the fibre inside to kill the noise.
I never spent money on a silent computer for my audio system, oops I mean an audiophile music server. I have recently heard an expensive $20K music server at a demo for a very expensive system. I preferred my system at home, but I think that was more a reflection of my speakers just being better.
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@randywong I used Mac mini for streaming using Roon and it couldn’t compete with a dedicated streamer. Lumin U1 Mini easily beat it. Yes streamers are computers but they’re designed for streaming and are optimized for it (lower jitter/noise).
As to the interface between streamer and DAC, when you use coax or AES, the clock in the streamer is critical. When you use USB, the clock in the DAC is what you’re relying on. In majority of cases with lower end streamers the USB is what the design is focused around and you would typically end up with better performance using the USB interface. Only way to know is to try. Get a nice USB cable and give it a try with the Eversolo.
One other aspect of your streaming chain to consider is the C53 inbuilt DAC. You can improve on it with a good external DAC.
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Oh damned! All your comments just open up a new universe to me. There are a lot of knowledge just surrounding the digital music source and the streamer. I am now using Eversolo a8, which is basically a mini version of android computer, way not comparable to the MacBook Pro. I only use its streaming function since I love my c53’s da2 better, but the sound was fantastic. That’s why I think a MacBook should work better and further improve the sound quality. Seems like I ignored other factors involved. Now my question: I am now using the coaxial to output the digital to dac, should I change it to giga lan or usb (which supposed to be more native to digital signals)?
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I use Audirvana running on my Apple Laptop Computer 12-Core CPU 19-Core GPU 16GB Unified Memory 1TB SSD Storage.
Audirvana outputs the signal to my Bricasti M21 DAC using an Ethernet cable. The Bricasti M21 is recognized as a DNLA device and becomes a powerful media renderer offering pristine data transmission over long distances, without loss of signal or degradation. My sound quality is excellent.
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Use your noisy MacBook Pro, no problem. I use a noisy crappy computer too. However, you need a moat in front of your DAC so that the analog noise before the moat does not travel up the USB cable into the DAC.
@yyzsantabarbara Out of curiosity, what dedicated streamers have you compared to your computer?
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If you like a sound stage flat as a pancake use a PC.
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Use your noisy MacBook Pro, no problem. I use a noisy crappy computer too. However, you need a moat in front of your DAC so that the analog noise before the moat does not travel up the USB cable into the DAC.
I use the relatively cheap Sonore OpticalRendu. I ignore Ethernet since Fibre cable sounds better to me. Fibre cable is made from glass and cannot carry the analog noise from the gear before the moat. The fibre cable is the moat.
Getting fibre into you home system can be done for under $100 via a network switch. Sonore has a complete solution for this, though I only use some of it since I already have network switches with fibre support.
Small Green Computer sells this gear.
SystemOptique Certified – Small Green Computer
If you are a ROON user (RATT protocol), this stuff is easy to do. They also support many other protocols which your Mac likely uses.
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Streaming music through a computer is yesterday's technology. It is way too noisy. If you get a separate streamer with an adequate ethernet line cleaning method you will know what we are talking about.
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Re computer vs. streamer, once you get an external DAC, the streamer (with built-in DAC) argument evaporates...IMHO, streamers are utterly overpriced for what they are, and you have to take the DAC that the manufacturer slaps in there. The whole "optimized OS for audio" is marketing hype, considering the minuscule computational power it takes to play/decode/transform audio signals compared to processor power in current computers.
This is absolute garbage advice by someone who clearly has no idea what they’re talking about. Listen to the others here (including me) who’ve transitioned from computers to a dedicated streamer and found a night and day difference. You’ve got your answer.
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I used a Mac air for years and to my ears it sounded fantastic. I did tried dedicated streamers from the the Eversolo 6, master and 8. I even tried a Hi Rose 130. Not even it was appreciably better. The Aurender N200 got slightly better. It took 12k and a Aurender n20 to get noticeable better. That what I have now feeding my Holo may Kte.
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I used a computer for at least 20 years before moving on (up.) No comparison. One can believe computer sound to be *good" if you never hear the difference.
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Re lossless etc., it will depend a lot on your software config, i.e. through web browser (poor), dedicated app (depends), or something like Audirvana/Roon (can be excellent).
Re computer vs. streamer, once you get an external DAC, the streamer (with built-in DAC) argument evaporates. Needless to say, there are different levels of external DACs, so your choice.
IMHO, streamers are utterly overpriced for what they are, and you have to take the DAC that the manufacturer slaps in there. The whole "optimized OS for audio" is marketing hype, considering the minuscule computational power it takes to play/decode/transform audio signals compared to processor power in current computers. I assume you do not intend to run it on an ancient MacBook 140 from 1985. You can look at the activity monitor when playing music, and it is insignificantly different from when nothing is playing. I also assume this would be a dedicated computer for audio, you're not also 3D rendering while trying to stream music.
I use a Mac mini as a Roon server, and that gets distributed.
1) USB to Holoaudio May DAC L2 [I challenge any streamer on audio quality] in listening room.
2) LAN to computer with older Topping D50 DAC (computer workstation with bookshelf speakers & headphone rig)
3) LAN to Laptop with dongle DAC and earbuds for couch surfing.
4) LAN to Living room in-wall speakers through a Rotel RA 1572 integrated with built-in DAC.
Audio quality is fine in all cases, considering limitations of various set ups: in-wall speakers do not produce a soundstage like my listening room, but perfectly enjoyable when I cook. etc. etc.
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I used a MacBook years ago. It isn’t even close in sound quality as a dedicated streamer. I had run on battery, shut down all apps… etc. no where near a good streamer. I recommend Aurrender. I have owned and auditioned in my system a number of different ones from $2K to $22K. In general, you get what you pay for… the more you invest (not arbitrarily) the better the sound. My great vinyl leg, CD, and streaming sounds the same. That is what the state of the art is today at most price points.
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They are all computers, but some more optimized than others.
If your preference is to use your MacBook, and not switch to a purpose built streamer, then inserting a DDC in front of your DAC for galvanic isolation and reclocking could provide noticeable benefits. You could try this one, which can also be used as a streamer, but there are also less expensive options like this one, or this one.
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The challenge with a Macbook, along with any other PC is the potential for ground loops via USB and noise from the power supply. Fix those two issues and they can be excellent.
Many high quality DAC's now are galvanically isolated USB inputs, so that's often not an issue. The next issue is if your charger creates too much noise. easy to tell by unplugging the charger from the wall and listening. This also eliminates ground loop issues, which may only occur with non-portable PCs.
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Oh boy, you have some research to do.
Yes, I used a macbook years ago, and it was trounced by an audiophile streamer/player. I have since upgraded my audiophile streamer/player to a better audiophile streamer/player and music sounds even more natural. Adding quality cabling to all components raises the level even higher.
Don't be fooled by what you read regarding 1's and 0's, and a lossless data stream etc. and "bits are bits". All the sound quality improvements are in the design, the output stages, power supplies and reducing electrical noise. Use your own ears.
But technically my streamer/player is still a computer, actually more than one computer in a single box, just engineered to control and play music only.
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