Was just reading about his passing....very sad. 80 is still to young...."what a drag it is getting old"....
Yet Keif is still among us...
Yet Keif is still among us...
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I just heard. There are those who consider The Stones Charlie's band, not Mick & Keith's. I guess Steve Jordan now has a full-time job ;-) . I love the pictures of Charlie on stage, smirking at Mick's "antics". Charlie was a hardcore Jazz fan, unimpressed by his own Rock 'n' Roll stardom. By the way: what is the "Keif" thing all about? I never received that memo. |
I listen too 'Exile on Main Street' and 'Between the Buttons' fairly regularly. What I loved about Charlie Watts was an anticipated kick that gave the Rolling Stones its drive and energy. As simple as those fills seemed to be, they took me by surprise every time. Plus he was also a visual artist and illustrator. May he remain in our blessed memories. |
I always had the feeling that he was a nice but quiet person, and I liked him...but, as far as his talent as a drummer, I think it was a bit weak. I'd like to hear from bdp24 and others who are drummers, or like me, just wannabees who closely watch drummers in bands. As an example of what I consider to be his substandard technique, I would suggest listening to Sway from Sticky Fingers. He literally stumbles through a couple of the fills, especially right before Mick Taylor's brilliant solo which closes the song. One of my favorite Stones songs. Well, that's what I've always thought about his playing, but he's been a part of my life for many years, and I'll miss him. |
roxy54, I don’t so much think of Charlie Watts as a drummer as much as I think of him as a musician. Too many drummers believe that a flashy technique is required but typically the opposite is true. Studio drummer Gary Chester, who was also a great pedagogue, would tell his students that if they planned to make a career from playing drum solos, that they needed to find a good job to fall back on. To me, drummers who can support the musical strengths of those around them, are extremely valuable and difficult to find. Some drummers can do this and solo too. Some drummers are strictly ensemble players. There is no doubt that The Rolling Stones are one of the greatest pop/rock bands of all time and Charlie Watts helped to make that happen. I don’t believe any other drummer in the world could have done as much for the Stones as what Charlie Watts did. |
Charlie Watts...I would consider myself a moderate Stones fan; they've always been there and I have many of their albums, but I wouldn't put them up there with my musical heroes.
Anyway, I am sad to hear about Charlie because he was the Stones' Rock of Gibralter. He's been there forever. He was a constant. I've always liked him & respected his talent.
What is starting to get scary, and sad in another way, is that the legends who are passing on now are not our parents' or older siblings' heroes, but ours. Every musician I love is well over 70. I know 80 is the new 60 but still. It's hard. |
Richards made the comment in his book. " Watts is the essence of it all..." I liken his importance to the band to Pick Withers of Dire Straits. After he left that band was never the same. Like Watts , Withers had a distinctive style , subtle precision. Jim Keltner in that class as well. This my favorite Watts vidhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3FUA0Hj7fI Good cover of his contribution in NYThttps://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/24/arts/music/charlie-watts-rolling-stones.html?searchResultPosition... |
Re Roxy54’s comment: I think Charlie Watts was a fine R&R drummer and probably the perfect drummer for The Rolling Stones. Solid time keeper with just enough looseness to give the band their distinctive rhythmic vibe. As has been pointed out a musician’s important strengths are not defined by speed and technical virtuosity, but by the ability to contribute to the whole of the ensemble in that ensemble’s style. He did that very well. Having said all that, while much is sometimes made of Watts having been a Jazz drummer, a good Jazz drummer he was not. He may have been inspired or influenced by Jazz drummers, but he was not at home in that genre nearly to the degree that he was in R&R. I heard his touring Jazz tentet in NYC on two occasions several years ago featuring some really good Jazz players including the great Peter King on saxophone and it was clear that Watts was the weak link in the ensemble. In that context, rather monotonous playing without the required split second reaction to what the soloists were doing. Hard to do it all. RIP |
frogman, Agree with your assessment. I had heard the jazz thing he did, and it wasn't very good. I really didn't mean to be a hair-splitting critic of the guy. He was a good fit for the Stones, personality wise and of course the way he played. I think his simplicity was brilliant on songs like Brown Sugar and Paint it Black, two that come to mind. He did his own thing, and it is sad to see him gone. |
Charlie didn’t have to be "perfect", or technically advanced. In fact, if he was he would sound out of place in a band with Keith Richards and Mick Jagger. Like the often-denigrated Ringo Starr, he was the right drummer for the group. As was Keith Moon for The Who. It is their trademark style that made their band’s what they were. At least Led Zeppelin realized Bonham couldn’t be replaced, and called it a day, as The Who should have. IMO. My tastes run in a different direction: Roger Hawkins (Muscle Shoals studio drummer in The Swampers. The actor they got to play him in the new movie about Aretha Franklin---Respect---looks just like him. Keltner said in a Modern Drummer interview that he wished he played more like Hawkins. A FANTASTIC drummer!), Jim Gordon (Delaney & Bonnie, Derek & The Dominos, Clapton’s solo debut, All Things Must Pass, Traffic---along with Roger Hawkins, Spector productions. I acquired one of his Camco sets after he was sent up the river for killing his mother with a hammer. Beat her to death with it.), Levon Helm, D.J. Fontana (you had better know who he is ;-), Harry Stinson (Marty Stuart’s drummer in his band The Fabulous Superlatives, also a great harmony singer.), Kenny Buttrey (Dylan, Neil’s Harvest.), Buddy Harman (Roy Orbison, Patsy Cline, The Everly Brothers, Elvis, Brenda Lee, Tammy Wynette. That’s him on "Stand By Your Man", his drumming the epitome of taste, economy, subtlety, and most importantly musicality. As various Jazz greats have said: The notes you don’t play are as important as those you do.), Jim Christie (Lucinda Williams, Dwight Yoakam.), a lot of others most of ya’ll have never heard of. I like drummers who "play the song". Those who listen for what a song needs, and play THAT, rather than what they think will impress other drummers. You know---gratuitous displays of empty technique. Musically inappropriate over-playing, way too busy. Drummers are generally kinda stupid (ever heard Carmine Appice speak? Oy.), present company and those named above excluded. One of my favorite musician stories is the one told me by Evan Johns, who worked off-and-on with guitar virtuoso Danny Gatton (nicknamed The Humbler by Vince Gill.). It goes as follows: Danny, speaking to his new drummer after the first set of his maiden live gig: "Hey, ya know all that fancy sh*t you play?" The drummer: "Yeah." Danny: "Don’t." |
When Exile came out reviewers (generally letdown after the Sticky Fingers studio precision) commented how Charlie was the glue that held it together. They were right, and eventually came around to how great the other playing was also. He was a capable of metronomic rhythm but played around with the timing enough to keep the songs interesting (the two-beat tap on a cymbal at the end of Dead Flowers is a great example of his stylish virtuosity). He will be missed. |
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bdp24, Yes, there's certainly no problem with sounding idiosyncratic where it applies to rock/pop/jazz, etc.. Playing in a rock band isn't like singing a Bach Aria. And the impromptu nature of 'Exile On Main Street' gives it a charm not found on any of their other studio albums. Additionally, I always appreciated the chemistry between Nicky Hopkins and the band. |
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Charlie's credentials as a drummer and human being speak for
themselves I'm not trying to sway anyones opinion or swing the pendulum to favor Charlie, he's one of many many wonderful drummers and just wanted to share some fun facts Is he on the Mount Rushmore of drummers, probably not for most but he should be in the conversation RIP Charlie |
gpgr4blu, Hal Blaine was another drummer who brought out the musicians that surrounded him in the studio. John Von Ohlen was a drummer for the Stan Kenton Band and taught at CCM and he always spoke about enhancing the melodic line. He started out playing the horn but switched later to drums. I always felt connected when a drummer new the harmonic structure two or three measures ahead. |
Absolutely @gpgr4blu. Hal Blaine was my first favorite studio drummer, once I learned there was such a thing. I left out Jim Keltner, considering him an obvious member of the musical drummer fraternity. His playing on Randy Newman's early albums really raised the bar for me. He is Ry Cooder's first choice for recording. I saw and heard the two perform live together in Little Village, an amazing experience. To hear a drum solo that is not only technically sophisticated, but also very musical, give a listen to the two short little drum breaks in "Beyond The Sea" by Bobby Darin. The drummer is Don Lamond, who had been in Woody Herman's band. Fantastic! It's not well known, but The Band's pianist/singer Richard Manuel plays drums on about half the song's on the s/t brown album, including "Up On Cripple Creek" and "Rag Mama Rag". His playing is a little stiff and slightly awkward, but the parts he created for the songs are "signature" parts, very important to the feel and character of the songs. Charlie Watts was also a little stiff, but had a more identifiable sound and style than do many more technical players. Which is more valuable? Emitt Rhodes started out on drums (in L.A. group The Palace Guard, while still in High School) switching to guitar when he formed The Merry-Go-Round. He plays all the instruments and sings all the vocals on his debut album, later employing drummer Jim Gordon on his second and third. When I recorded with Emitt in the late-90's (he was engineering and producing), he told me Gordon was the best musician he ever worked with. Not just best drummer, but best musician. A deeply, deeply musical drummer. Bobby Whitlock (Delaney & Bonnie, Derek & The Dominos) has said he considers Gordon the best Rock 'n' Roll drummer of all-time. I don't know, Earl Palmer was awfully good ;-) . |
bdp24, A lot of drummers think that Jim Gordon is the best rock drummer of all time. I grew up emulating more of the jazz drummers than the rock; Philly Jo Jones, Art Taylor, Paul Motian, and more recently Joey Baron. Oddly enough, I'm currently experiencing Bob Will's and His Texas Playboys, The Tiffany Transcriptions. I think it was Louis Armstrong who said 'There's Only Two Types of Music, Good and Bad'. |