Am I Better Off With Limited Low Frequency Speaker In A Small Room?

Downside is that the speaker can sound bright but at the same time, not all that airy in the soundstage. And tonally, it sounds a bit gray. Nothing is so harmonically fleshed out that I believe it's real. It also. never feels like it really lets loose. 

In a smaller room, diffusion can really break up the reflections into smaller pieces so all speakers can sound their best, especially speakers like Harbeth that don't have a waveguide or horn so they spray sound more indiscriminately. Diffusion is really how you get a hi-end sound in the mid frequencies (vocals and instruments).

Listened to the new model stand mounted Vienna Acoustic “Hayden” speakers last week in a dealers large room.  I was surprised at their performance as far as musicality and the range they projected.   I heard a previous Hayden model a few years ago and these are a definite step forward in sound quality. Worth an audition for a room your size.  

I heard those Harbeth's and found them too relaxed sounding and no snap to the sound. Just not engaging and a bit dry sounding. Agree did not sound real and always like a speaker was playing. 

Downside is that the speaker can sound bright but at the same time, not all that airy in the soundstage. And tonally, it sounds a bit gray. Nothing is so harmonically fleshed out that I believe it’s real.

This largely seems odd (except the airy part) and begs several questions:

- What’s the rest of the equipment in your system?

- What sound characteristics are most important to you?

- What improvements are you looking for over your current speakers?

- Where are you located and what speakers do you have access to?

- Can you purchase from the US?

You really haven’t given much to go on here, and the more info you provide the more effective and productive this post will be.

Yes, I do listen diagonally (or kitty-corner as I call it).

I'm auditioning Harbeth C7 XD over this weekend. Interesting speaker. It sounds wide open. Bass is fairly deep and tight, no bloat. Images are large. The speaker is easy to listen to. With smale scale music, it's quite good. These speakers seem to fit into my room quite well. 

Downside is that the speaker can sound bright but at the same time, not all that airy in the soundstage. And tonally, it sounds a bit gray. Nothing is so harmonically fleshed out that I believe it's real. It also. never feels like it really lets loose. 

If your cubical room is a problem you may want to try a diagonal setup in your listening room.

I completely agree and I believe the OP is already doing this.  At a show in NYC Jeff Joseph was showing hiswonderful Pulsars in a very small room and had them set up like this to great effect and definitely made the most of it. 
 

If your cubical room is a problem you may want to try a diagonal setup in your listening room.

It helped a lot when I was in  borg-like 10x10x10 (although it did not do much for Soundstage depth.

Good luck!

DeeCee 

It has nothing to do with the size of the room, but the limited placement options due to size. Extended low is not inherently bad in a small room, but bad placement is bad in all rooms. A small room forces bad placement. Go subs. The more the merrier.

Actually a small room has inherent challenges because the room dimensions are shorter than the sound waves.

So what happens? Bass builds up unevenly so treatment is required...Treat what you can and then use PEQ (like in ROON) to knock down peaks...

multiple subwoofers are tricky unless you have DSP bass management. Subwoofers don’t help much for problems above 80-100hz...room treatment is best above subwoofer crossover point.

Good news is that a 12x12x12 room CAN sound good. You have front wall and sidewall symmetry. Rooms that have an open sidewall can't really be fixed and IMO have much bigger problems in that they can't create a realistic stereo image. 

Material of the walls play a big role. Concrete? Huge problem. Wood? Not so.

I have the same size two channel room. McIntosh C-47 pre, MC152 amp, B&W 805d3 and REL T-7x. Room is GIK treated. Added the REL last and by far was the greatest improvement to overall sound; especially at low levels. 

["analogj    I'm aware of what subs CAN do,  but I have never heard a sub, even in an audio salon, where I didn't ultimately prefer the sound of the main speakers without them, at least for music."]

If you heard the sub, even in an audio salon, I believe it wasn't, or simply incapable of being properly set up. 

In my experience the upper frequencies benefit from more space not the bass. The earlier 18" version of my current Room Optimization equipped 10" subwoofer used in my 10'x10'x8' studio are only distinguishable when turned off during play. 

All the best with your search.

Agree with those saying bookshelves plus sub(s) as well put by Soix. 

Could also consider JL Audio e-112 sub(s) for clean bass foundation. 

Good Luck!

@theaudiomaniac , Yes they are higher, right where you can clearly hear them. The best solution here is to find another room in the house or move to a place that has a decent room for audio. I lived in apartments for years with rooms that were compromised but I knew that in time I would be able to build my own house with a purpose designed media room. You never want a room with equal dimensions. They should vary as much as possible. It is important for everyone to realize this. There are times when you are forced to live with a damaged situation. Just keep it in mind for the future that the OP needs a better room if he wants the best performance. It can be small just break up the dimensions. 

I only use DSP in my car audio, but in this case I strongly agree.  I think you either use DSP or forget it and save a bunch of money by going for some of the highest end stereo Bluetooth speakers in there.

My room is smaller than yours, I had massive ( walls shaking furniture vibrating, speakers in sympathetic coupling) bass problems until I added two subwoofers. I now use these two with Audio Physic floor standers. The problems have disappeared and the sound and balance is fantastic. Soundstage and depth is exceptional. I use a MiniDSP with bass cut to the main speakers at 60Hz, and the room bass node frequencies cut. Very against putting DSP in my system, problem is it works. Benefits of a better controlled bass are obvious however the main speakers are much less stressed, the subs do the hard lifting and I can place them to best advantage.  I have a tube hybrid power amp that works in Class A up to 10 watts.  I doubt if, in this configuration, it every puts out more than 1 watt. 

Omega CAMs and an SVS SB2000 pro sub in my 12 x11.5 room with absorption behind the speakers. Couldn't be happier with the sound. There is an obvious hump in the 40hz range but really it works well with the Omegas. Small square rooms suck but with lots of work you can get there. My room is still a work in progress but damn I love it! 

If that were my room, I'd certainly go with a great pair of bookshelf speakers.....and if you find later you need more bass, then you can add a small sub. My first thought would be to find speakers that are comfortable being placed nearer the the wall behind them.....acoustic suspension, front ported, or passive radiators.

I have not done it, but Dirac Live might be of help as well.....I  think Mini DSP has some add on devices?

I expect most audio salons don't have a clue how to set up properly.

+1. 

The Castle Edens sound remarkably good in my room.  I do have Corner Tunes in all four corners. Yes, I have a 55" flat screen TV. I have a cushy couch. Wood record shelves. A few pictures. 

It's not perfect, but I also listen nearfield, and as I mentioned above, my setup is arranged kitty-corner to eliminate parallel wall reflections. There's nothing abysmal about the sound in my room. But I do detect a slight upper bass hump. That's why I'm trying the bass trap.

There's no room for subs anyway. I'm aware of what subs CAN do,  but I have never heard a sub, even in an audio salon, where I didn't ultimately prefer the sound of the main speakers without them, at least for music. I get it for home theater. I would never completely shut the door on the concept, but not in my livingroom either, one I share with my wife. 

Totally agree with @mijostyn regarding room. Hope there's no tv in room! 

I don't agree completely @mijostyn. There are some serious speaker placement issues, but one advantage of the room being small, is the nodes are all higher in frequency so smaller treatments, and the near cube means the nodes concentrate at the same frequencies, worse if untreated, but easier to treat.

The main thing here is some heavy duty absorbers on the front walls in front of the speakers, and then some heavy duty absorbers behind the listening position. This will allow a lot more flexibility in placement and seating. Hang some heavy panels from the sealing, and standard carper will be fine. 2 or 4 small subs.

It would not be my first choice, but you work with what you have and you use a method that suits the room.

@analogj , That is a TERRIBLE room for a serious HiFi. You are going to have a terrible resonance problem in the bass and lower midrange. In a room like that you would be better off with headphones.

I'm listening to a pair of aDs 910s placed in a small bedroom. They sound exquisite. I do have concrete floors and lots of clothing stacked around the room on the bed. Seems to be a great placement. hehe

It has nothing to do with the size of the room, but the limited placement options due to size. Extended low is not inherently bad in a small room, but bad placement is bad in all rooms. A small room forces bad placement.  Go subs. The more the merrier.

I listened to my Canton Ref 9K the other day and was surprised by their ability to play bass notes very clearly. I looked at their specs and they are said to hit 25 Hz but I guess that is a few db below neutral. Great stand mounts and could work great in a small room. I will probably add subs later since my room us larger than yours. They also looks like a million dollars in the walnut finish. 

I’ve spent a few months putting together a system in a 121/2x23x10’ room. I added a pair of REL S/812 to a speaker that covered all but the lowest octave. My subs cross over around 25-30hz and volume is set to 1/4 of full volume and my phono cartridge was not liking the bass. I moved everything to seven different locations, but no luck. I’ve got a hardwood floor with a thick pad carpet, but the room is suspended over a two car garage..so lots of issues with bass. So far my solution is bass traps..nine large bass traps, Tiger Maple rack with 3" thick shelves..plus 3" turntable isolation stand with a 108 pound integrated Amp on the bottom shelf. Also, I added a full size low back sofa.

My main speakers are Sabrina X and yes, the subs make a difference.

PS - The Fritz with the Scanspeak sliced paper mid-woofers are outstanding choices in a room like this.

I'm not a fan of subs. There can be a discontinuity in tonality. I have never heard one in a room where I didn't prefer listening to music without it. 

Due respect, you’ve never heard decent and properly dialed-in subs.  When properly integrated you’re not even aware subs are even on much less hearing any tonal discontinuities (sub’s crossover and/or volume was probably set way too high if that’s the case).  When subs are well integrated it’s the exact opposite of your experience — you won’t listen without them.  BTW, subs don’t just provide bass.  They dramatically improve overall imaging and soundstage and greatly enhance the sense of space and detail in a recording, and when you turn the subs off everything just collapses.  And with 40Hz as your lower limit you’re missing out on a ton of the musical experience.  Just my experience FYI.  BTW, don’t take my word for it — order a pair of SVS SB1000 Pros and see/hear for yourself.  They offer a long in-home trial and pay shipping both ways so literally costs you nothing but a little time.  My $0.02 FWIW. 

I agree with those who suggested smaller main speakers plus subs.  Acoustic suspension speakers generally control bass better than bass reflex (i.e., ported) speakers.  Also, my experience is that (at least) two subs can be integrated better than one.  If the type of music you enjoy has significant low frequency content then  I would definitely include the subs.

I did not realize that the listening room was that small (on your previous thread).

You might take a look @ the Silverline Prelude Plus floor stander.

I've listened to the original Non-Plus version and they were very nice, but our living room opens to a dining/galley kitchen area and the space was too large.

http://v2.stereotimes.com/post/silverline-audio-prelude-plus-loudspeakers

DeKay

Yes, I think you are on to something. I would seek out a pair of stand mount speakers and forgo the sub. I have used a pair of Esoteric MG-10s (2-way stand mounts) in a small room for years. Frequency limit is lower 40s. I listen to rock (not heavy metal), jazz, vocals, folk primarily. Don't miss a sub. 

Placement, tone controls and room treatment are your friends.  Use the AM acoustics room simulator to help you with placement of your sub and listening place.

https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc

I'm not a fan of subs. There can be a discontinuity in tonality. I have never heard one in a room where I didn't prefer listening to music without it. 

I don't need the extension if the speaker goes down to close to 40hz.

By the way, I have the living room setup at an angle to the corner to reduce parallel walls. 

I’d go with smaller limited range monitors and add sub or subs that you have more control over to fill in low end as needed. That is what I do in my 12x12 room. Kef ls50 metas + klipsch sw308 sub. Sound meter app to get a rough integration using streamed white noise then fine tuned by ear with music. Simple and Perfect! Two subs set up well always better than one but one alone to start may do it depending on how fussy you are.

I had a similar room and wanted to make my Thiel CS3.7 work in this room. I managed to do so with GIK and then DSP using ROON Convolution filters. Adding more GIK panels and moving reflective surfaces as far from the speakers as possible allowed me to eventually remove the Convolution filter. 

The sound was about 80% as good as the Thiel CS3.7 could do in a more spacious room. The speaker could not really breath but the sound as not fatiguing nor unpleasant, just not the best it could do.

I recently put in the KEF LS50 Meta with the KC62 sub and kept the GIK panels. The sound is fantastic, so much better than the bigger CS3.7.  The LS50 does not sound like it is being held back.

So I think putting a restricted low frequency speaker in a small room is the way to go. You can augment that with a great fast sub like the KC62 if you want more low end. 

You do have an issue in that you have a square room, which will create significant bass reinforcement issues. I had a similar issue with my floor standers that go down to 28Hz, and short of bass traps or DSP/room correction the only way I could somewhat alleviate the issue was to pull the speakers out 5’ from the front wall but there was still slightly overdone bass.

I would highly suggest going with monitors and incorporate two small subs that have their own integration software (i.e. SVS SB1000 Pro) that will let you better manage bass in your room and greatly improve your overall performance while giving you a true full-range system in the process — best of all worlds solution IMHO. I think you’re absolutely on the right track by also using GIK products and I would take their advice for your challenging situation very seriously as they really know their stuff. BTW, let us know if you need/want suggestions for speakers/subs if that might be helpful — lots of wisdom, experience, and hard-won knowledge here that may help you make more confident purchase decisions. Hope this helps, and best of luck.