All things being equal (hypothetical) which do you prefer, XLR or RCA?
Hello All,
Just curious here. All things being equal would you go balanced or unbalanced if you have the option for both? I only ask because I've never really compared-though I have gone both routes at different times. I have gone the balanced route now (power amp to pre, and DAC to pre), but wonder which route you all would choose...Just curious and having some fun...
Assuming your equipment is taking advantage of the balanced connections, then this is the clear winner in my book.
RCA cables carry the signal on the same connection as the ground currents between devices which is a bad idea. If all your gear is well design and plugged into the same distribution block with good grounds, RCA cables can work ok. But well designed balanced connections which isolate the ground currents from the audio signal will always be at least as good and usually better.
Balanced connections also provide much better common mode noise rejection, so it there is any RF or EM noise generated by your components or other devices in the surrounding area, balanced connections provide a much cleaner signal.
At this point in my audiophile journey (45 years in), I would not consider products that didn't support balanced connections.
If you have differentially balanced equipment.....balanced cable is better...with no problems in the association. I have Dif. balanced CD player, amp, preamp, even the cartridge is wired balanced. (XLR phono) No problem, only music.
In most posts, people are describing their preference between a dual differential balanced circuit and a single end circuit. If you compare a xlr cable with pin 1 and 3 tied together with a rca cable of the same make in a single ended circuit, they should sound identical.
To the simple question @kingbr posed I prefer XLR.
On a side note, this thread illustrates the best and worst of forums. While I truly respect (and I believe most do) @millercarbon and others who are far more knowledgeable, decorum might suggest another way to join in / reply. And yes, I may be inviting a host of sarcasm and hate.
I've yet to meet anyone who has audio-omniscience. One reason I enjoy Hans Beekhuyzen is that while he occasionally employs mild sarcasm, he tries to educate and explain. I think we all (?) enjoy learning, reading, listening, exploring, and enjoying different aspects of audio. I continue to learn from experts and a lot of personal experience buying, A-B testing, "upgrading", etc. To me, this is all part of the enjoyment.
I've got a very nice headphone system: dac connected to 2 different amps. I tested (A-B) with RCA and XLR. I'm no millercarbon but I could tell a significant improvement (BTW using 2 different balanced openback headphones and 1 IEM, all with balanced cables) with XLR over RCA and the cost wasn't that much steeper than good RCA cables. Additionally, my main stereo is all XLR balanced and I can also tell a difference.
As Hans closes his YouTubes videos, "...and whatever you do, enjoy the music". :-)
Hello, I am running a Parasound P6 Pre with Parasound A21 amp feeding it with Yamaha cd-s1000 sacd player, and a musichall 7.3 with Ortofon Black 2m for my turntable, all feeding my B&W 803s's. I am running Audioquest Water RCA's, and XLR's. I did notice the different between the RCA and XLR. The XLR's have a more open sound stage compared to the RCA's . Imaging was better. But i only can use the XLR between the Pre and Amp, every thing else is RCA's. My other system Mcintosh c42 pre and dual mc162 amps. I really noticed the difference between the XLR to the RCA's.But it also depends on the cable, not all cables are made the same or sound the same.
If you can get your DAC or preamp near the amp there is no benefit from a balanced connection, conversely if you want to drive mononlocks near the speakers balanced is likely the preferred option. In high res systems with short cables my experience is that balanced depending on implementation at worst is more sluggish or in the best of all worlds gives no discernible benenfit. Longer runs, balanced wins.
This construct of "which do you prefer, XLR or RCA cables" is kind of backwards. Choice of XLR vs RCA (single ended) cables follows the design of source equipment such as DACs & preamps, in which either balanced or single ended designs may be executed for reasons best known to the designer.
true - but there are equipment/system choices that can be made using one method or another ... thus the question is relevant to many
By far, the biggest difference between unbalanced RCA and balanced is on long runs of cable. Short runs of unbalanced work very well. I use 18-36 inch connects, only. I have A/B's these on my system. At about 20 feet, I can find a difference if I get totally anal about it.
This construct of "which do you prefer, XLR or RCA cables" is kind of backwards. Choice of XLR vs RCA (single ended) cables follows the design of source equipment such as DACs & preamps, in which either balanced or single ended designs may be executed for reasons best known to the designer.
I have 2 balanced headphone amps in my system (which also sport SE outputs); and 4-5 single ended headphone amps; and a big speaker amp that can be run via SE or balanced cables. So I've had a lot of chances to compare SE vs balanced, across amps. Here's what I've observed:
-- Running an all balanced system (source components & preamp & speaker or headphone amps all designed for balanced operation) might be ideal theoretically. But due to the greater output voltage coming from balanced vs SE source components (2.0V - ~3.0V SE vs 4.0V - ~5.0V balanced), a balanced chain would introduce intolerable gain issues that are not possible to eradicate without introducing ancillary gear (ie, passive volume controller) in one or more places to control gain (and that's hardly ideal).
-- Headphone amps designed for balanced operation usually sound better via balanced output cable to the headphone vs single-ended cables. Headphones are quite revealing and these differences, though subtle, are not a big challenge to hear. Balanced cables often deliver slightly better/wider/deeper soundstage, dynamics, and bass.
Having said all that--if I ran a music studio and my audio gear was in service of music production, everything would be balanced--because long runs of balanced cabling are far more immune to RFI and other external distortions than single ended cabling.
kingbr Just curious here. All things being equal would you go balanced or unbalanced if you have the option for both?
Got to watch it here, as many pieces of equipment especially tubes are only "pseudo balance", with an opamp or balanced circuit at the input or output of what is essentially a complete single ended design.
The rca with 1-5mt interconnects will sound better in these cases because it bypasses these opamps. (Unless 10mt of interconnect are used)
If you look at a circuit diagram it’s easy to tell if you know, if not ask the manufacture for "an honest answer in writing", ("Is this equipment balanced all the way from input to output"?) if he won’t give it, give him the big flick
@jjss49 good point about the loudness perception. I actually fell for this way back in the day comparing Definitive Technology speakers vs PSB's. The Definitive's being bipolar (and more efficient at the time) seemed to completely overwhelm the PSB's. However I soon realized after I brought the Definitive's home that they weren't quite as detailed and did not have that razor sharp image that I was looking for for music, whereas as it turned out the PSB's did. The DT's were great for HT but not as great for being able to close your eyes and actually see the band playing in front of you while spinning a cd...I didn't keep the DT's for very long and never looked back...
If you have a preamp that takes both balanced and single ended devices and a source that supplies both switch back and forth between say three foot balanced cables and three foot single ended ones correcting for any volume differences. See if you can really tell the difference. I just did this experiment with digital cables comparing AES, SPDIF and Optical types. No difference at all over short distances.
i agree that for some, long runs across areas with strong sources of interference will show the benefits of xlr connections and cable, but i suspect that in just as many (if not more) cases the apparent sonic ’benefit’ is due to the balanced source delivering twice the voltage swing to the receiving component
lots of people fail to properly compensate for volume differences and are swayed by the subtly (or not so subtle) louder version they hear
in any a-b comparison loudness compensation is absolutely critical -- our ears are impressed by 'louder', even by fractions of a decibel
I have recently started using the XLR version of Van den Hul The Second instead of the RCA version (both one metre lengths) between pre-amp and power amp, and have been pleased with the outcome. Not an earth shattering improvement, but to my ears there has been a subtle change for the better.
Many comparisons with various gear over 2 decades shows that dynamics are better, contrast is better, low level detail is superior and bass definition and impact are improved with true balanced XLR cables used with true balanced gear ⚙️
Over short distances they sound exactly the same. Over longer distances balanced cables have a theoretical advantage but I doubt any of us could reliably tell the difference. XLRs are certainly more ..hip. They lock in place which is nice. For those of us that use mono amps behind the speakers they could be considered mandatory and this is where they first entered the consumer Hi Fi chain then got generalized. They make sense for turntables which are balanced from the get go. Sound different? In your dreams maybe.
Appreciate all the great responses, thank you All! Sounds like XLR is for the most part what most prefer. Like I said I have gone balanced now and will not go back I was just more curious than anything else to see what most here prefer. But I definitely appreciate those of you that have done comparisons and shared your findings in your own systems, so thanks for sharing!
We are talking about 300.00 usd in cable no matter the cable manufacture. The fact we are even comparing cost is kind of moot for me. I suppose if I was buying someone’s off the shelf cable that would be the issue.
Because I don’t buy anyone’s brand I have the option for either balanced or single ended. I have the proof in the pudding here. Cables REALLY matter, the difference is I make my own, again it is REALLY NOT rocket science.. It is actually hooking up some wire ends to terminal ends.. OK you call it what you like.. THAT is what it is.. You may have to twist this and heat that, but guess what, it is still under 300.00 for 20 foot cable run of the highest quality cable on EARTH....
Depending on the gear some sounds different, but I have the option to change cable constructs a lot easier than most.
THREE kinds that’s all I found that work differently for RCAs and XLR. Not talking about active shielding only shielding by design (weave) or wire twist...
I haven’t tried gold, aluminum or lead, BUT Copper, Copper clad and Silver are pretty predictable. The type of cover is predictable. How they are going to sound and how they are constructed make a lot of difference, but predictable. The type of copper NOT so much.
I keep seeing OCC is better, LOL I have tested the sonics on it until I almost went deaf.. OCC copper with teflon OFF the spool as direction is only .000X % less O2 free. I can’t hear the difference.. with RCAs or XLRs OCC vs OFC.
Speaker cable or copper/clad...that’s different... They sound different... OCC vs OFC
From the top of my head: XLR has 4V rms signal level, RCA has 2V rms, so the signal-to-noise ratio (everything else being equal) is better for XLR. Second, the balanced connection means that interference on both signal lines would be cancelled out at the other end. That means that any kind of interference has less impact in an XLR setup. It also means that one bit more accuracy in all the analog signal accuracy that your expensive DAC has distilled from digital source ends up in your analog domain.
TL,DR: XLR is one bit more accurate.
OTOH: there is no "everything else being equal" in audioland. Listen before buying, as always.
Had a slight buzz with RCA cables between my Marantz Pre-Amp and my Classe Sigma2 Amps on only 1.5 meter runs, all on a rack mounted system. I tried everything to get rid of that ground loop, everything powered through the same 20Amp breaker and Audioquest Niagara.
Switched to XLR - all gone and couldn’t be happier. I’m sold. XLR not just for long cable runs.
I usually always go with RCA cables because of the usual increased gain with balanced cables. I have a lot of high sensitivity speakers and RCA just work better for me in my system.
Simply stated differential balanced means no signals are on the same boards, which 100% eliminates cross talk. Anything less, should NOT be considered Hi-End
Same cable same manufacturer (Kondo KSL), i like the balanced connection for a more relaxed with more body presentation as having the benefit of the extra gain. But i also like the slightly better mids and energy on top and the slightly better pace and attack with single ended connection. Dynamics i would call equal. Both my pre and power amp are true balanced designs.
More great responses! I do love the locking grip that XLR offers. What I have noticed though is that some manufacturers charge the same for XLR or RCA. While others charge almost significantly more for XLR (Transparent Cable-not a knock I do love their cables).
This is awesome, thank you all you've certainly ticked the box for "having some fun" on this one :)!
I've known since the 1980's that XLR is professional wire made for professional use mistakenly adopted by audiophiles who don't really understand the difference.
XLR has all kinds of features that are really good for professional use. Professionals use lots and lots, sometimes hundreds of them, and are moving things around, making and changing connections. XLR are designed to lock, and to make the ground connection first. That is why you hear the horrible sound if you connect RCA while it's on. Professionals find it a hassle to be turning everything off so they designed it so they don't have to.
People talk about noise rejection and long runs. Get real. Yes there is noise rejection and yes they are better for long runs. But long in a home is nothing. XLR in professional use can run a hundred meters. Easy. That's long. Five meters in a house seems long to us. It is not. Not long even for RCA.
RCA are easier to make and therefor way more performance per dollar. This is just looking at the wire. In order to do XLR properly the component needs to be fully balanced. This means two of everything. In a world where quality matters, balanced is saying spend half as much on everything. This is dumb. Only an audiophile could fall for this one.
But you can say oh Millercarbon you don't know I have my blah blah blah, and Millercarbon says yes but did you ever compare side by side the exact same component with the exact same wire, the only difference being one was RCA the other XLR?
Because I did. A guy was trying to sell me a Krell on being fully balanced. I said let's compare. But you need the same brand and model interconnects, only difference being RCA vs XLR. Thought that would be the end of that but no, they actually had the same interconnect both ways.
So we listened. And balanced with XLR the background was blacker. The noise floor was a tiny bit lower. But there was also a loss of delicacy and detail compared to RCA. In other words it was a trade off. I would choose delicacy and detail even if it was the same price. But XLR is not the same price. It is a lot more. Factor in the cost increase in the components and it is a whole lot more.
So there you have it. XLR is another audiophile misunderstood canard boondoggle.
I have used single ended for the last fifty years. I have monitored reviews and forums on the subject... and specifically reviews on my Audio Reseach Reference gear... Phonostage, preamp, DAC, and amp RE160s. ARC equipment is balanced internally, and XLR is recommended. Most reviews notice a slightly better sound to the XLR. There has been a slow shift to XLR being noted as better across the industry. While not night and day... pretty consistently. XLR provides a louder signal, making it hard to compare with RCA. I spent hundreds of hours comparing different interconnects in the 80’s and 90’s... so I can read reviews and understand what they are saying and put it in context. I have a really good system, and am not going to waste time doing any more comparisons (especially since break-in is important and long for interconnects) So, I have been slowly swapping out my single ended for XLR... they are $4K per pop, I have one left. If I was starting today I would go XLR.
Also, as noted above it is recommended for long runs. I also have my equipment off to the side. Locating the equipment off to the side probably has a bigger impact than RCA vs XLR in short lengths, But they are all additive, so every little positive thing adds up. If you want a truly great system you want to optimize all the small stuff as well as big stuff.
The AES48 stadnard is what you should look up. Atmasphere has stated a few times on this forum that many manufacturers do not implement this spec properly. That is a main reason why various cables sound different and also why XLR and RCA also do not have much difference on those units.
My gear does support the AES48 standard and using anything but XLR is a waste of my money. Actually on my Benchmark gear I have to use XLR on the amp.
I run long XLR cables between my preamp and DAC and have the benefit of moving the rack far away from the speakers. I would not try that with RCA cables.
Over the past year, I've had a couple of opportunities to compare RCA vs XLR interconnects of the same brand/model, length (1 meter). The XLR's definately sound better in my system. More open, solid image, detail. Connected between a Marantz SA-10 and PM-10. Maybe those particular components were designed to be best with XLRs.
Not so hypothetical as some companies offer both rca and xlr connections on single ended only equipment for purely convenience sake. In these situations, I prefer xlr for their more secure connection and strain relief.
Dual differential XLR is less prone to interference but can be a bit sluggish compared to the best single ended implementations. Single ended is preferred on purist systems based on SET amps from Kondo, Shindo, Audionote or Wavac. I guess the easiest way to look at it: short runs in low interference environments RCA, otherwise XLR
Hypotheticals are not all that helpful in setting up systems; the particular cable XLR or RCA, which sounds best is the one I use. Never presume an XLR from a manufacturer will always outperform an RCA from a different manufacturer. Theoretically it should, but often it does not.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
