Let me start by saying this is an absolutely idiotic premise for discussion.
Now, I’m going to listen to either my Cornwalls, or ESL57’s, and get some popcorn as I watch this unfold…
All Pre 1970 Vintage speakers suck! Prove me wrong
Have tried many vintage speakers.
My conclusion: All pre-1970 vintage speakers suck. Well-made but crappy sound.
Used with both vintage amps and modern.
I do like many vintage amps such as Radio Craftsmen RC-500, Marantz tube, Scott tube, Heath W5, Lafayette and Pilot tube.
But back to pre-1970 speakers:
No bass, harsh, or honky mids and no highs. Not musical or listenable to me.
Tried many including Acoustic Research AR-3a, 2Ax, etc. The entire AR product line. Also Klipsch Horn, Large EVs. Altec VOTT. Pioneer CS-88 and 99.
Nothing pre 1970 is even close to the better modern speakers.
I challenge you: Prove me wrong.
102 responses Add your response
And the 2023 "Golden Boot Up The Arse" trophy for trolling goes to (drum roll and earth-shattering silence) -- @kenjit...er, I mean @lion! What an amazing come from behind victory with so many contenders this year, but @lion wins hands (and listening ears) down! |
Roxy54, I agree. I do like the Grand Utopias, but at the modest listening levels I prefer, they don’t have the liveliness of great horn systems. Which is best depends on priorities. For comparable dollars spent, I can get a custom designed horn system with YL horn and compression driver, and 18” Goodman field coil woofer. It won’t go as deep or have the same bass impact as the Grand Utopia, but that kind of bass is not a personal priority. |
I’m sensitive to bad speakers. And those old speakers that I owned way back when and have occasion to hear once in a while now were horrible compared to even a $500- $700 new pair of speakers. Just don’t understand how people can praise them and brag that they listen to them. I chalk it up to the vintage people either never having heard good modern speakers or desperately trying to find something old that sounds new. I liken them to listening to a transistor radio dropped down a well. |
...I think we can safely listen to this: ....since 'vintage' is the du jour topic... ;) Considering all the pro's 'n con's that have been espoused, posed, deposed, and debunked in some manners (and a paltry few without).... There's been some very good ranging to definitely atrocious in the eras (and errors) of audiophilia....we've managed to live, live with, live through, and live without a considerable span of that trudge of time. The 'Rat Shuck' actually did have a few rough diamonds and the 'Major Players' (Enter Your Fave Rave *HERE* if you haven't already) I liked some of the Infinity's of the late '70s'~early '80s'. Oh, btw...some background on the 'lion' opening song.... Changes your whole attitude about it....😑 |
The vast majority of pre-1970 speakers were quite poor compared to modern speakers. But, as I and others above have mentioned, not all vintage speakers are inferior. Many of the best are not particularly practical, but, if you heard them, I am sure the sound would please you. Like modern speakers, there is a VAST array of sound of vintage speakers and not all sound thin or nasal or harsh or rough; but the best are not that easy to find and hear these days. Have you heard a real Western Electric 757 or 753 system for example? |
7 years ago we strolled into a gift shop in Fairhope, AL. We were immediately greeted with a smooth, balanced, engaging sound quite unique in the "gift shop" world of "musical wallpaper". The sound revealed the complexity of the music. Not too bright. Not too boomy. Just right. I got a glimpse of boxes hanging on the wall, my curiosity got the best of me and moved in closer for inspection. You just can’t blame a compass for pointing north? And, there they were, grilles removed -- AR3as. I noticed a large silver-faced something behind the counter driving them but couldn’t make out the model#. The person on duty that day mentioned the owner was an "audiophile". We visit the area about once per year now. I always stop in for a "wellness check" on the old ARs. In the world of musical wallpaper, they are a Rembrandt hanging on the wall. |
“Good grief! People are actually touting Radio Shack speakers? Please escort them out of the building - through the back door - with extreme prejudice. ” My dream RS speakers actually popped up on eBay last week and they sold quick- Optimus T-300, finest speaker ever offered by RS. Offered only one year ( ‘83?) , at $259 each was more $ than the the Mach 2. Real oak veneer heavy cabinet, passive 10” woofer design, friend got them closed out 50% off - very nice speakers. |
@larryi ...No, I've never the opportunity to hear either of those, but I'm game to. *G* I'm not a 'classical all, all the time' either....but do 'symphony' periodically. It's good to have an awareness of from whence it's from, but I'm primarily of this era and prefer to 'grow with it and into it'....'eclectic' to the core... ;) The same with the means we employ to listen. If one thinks "Gawd, that old stuff sounds like ...", well....it was the best of its' era and the means to make it such. The fact that many can find it still listenable....even to 'modern ears'....is a tribute to those who made it such. I suspect that 99.8% of what 'they' listened to elsewhere drove them to do it.... ;) @katman ....RS sold briefly a duo or a trio of speakers with a Linaeum tweeter; basically a small rubanoide dipole, 2.5Khz to 20Khz more or less. If you've never heard one of them, not a surprise there.... Never sprung for a pair of finished ones, but got a pair of the stand-alone units from a 'surplus' box.... One works, the other DOA. Did an autopsy on the latter....you can DIY them, but an ESL repair is child's play in contrast... Be a dipole fan to appreciate them... @vitussl101....If you're referring to moi'.... This is Not an argument: more of an 'appeal to audio history, and those who, Wayyy before us, suffered listening to 'music' that to a 'cultured ear' of the time likely drove them nutz. Consider: You just came back from a live concert of Bach (and it doesn't matter what was played) and wanted to 'extend the vibe' (so to speak) when home. What you played at home sounded Nothing Like what you just experienced. Give the Past a break...😣🤷♂️ *L* Anyway.... @rocray....Ah, yes.. "..the celebrated Mr. K performs his feat on Saturday at Bishops' Gate...." I'll be diplomatic about the man, because we all ought to strive to allow each other that, in this very VERY "IMHO" (and sometimes, not so H....nooo) and tremendously personal 'hobby'....that is it's own sort of addiction. Some have a firm grasp on it.... "Don't take nothing that your spirit can't kill..." Some skip like a stone... "...skipping over the ocean like a stone..." ....and then, there's......well..... To 11 and beyond.... Get Down. |
There are MANY good modern speakers that do almost everything well. I like the top end Rockport speakers, Arion Acoustic planar magnetics, Maggies of all sort, and a lot of other modern designs. But, almost all of them are dynamically a touch lifeless at low volume and do not engage my interest in the same way high efficiency systems, particularly horn systems do. Is it a fault of the speaker or the kinds of amps needed to power such speakers? The amps I really like are low power amps, particularly low power tube amps. It doesn’t really matter which is to “blame.” There are many modern systems that are high efficiency that I do like, but they are not commonly found. I will mention a few I really like: Charney Audio Companion with AER driver (they come with several alternative); Cube Audio Nenuphar Basis (wide range driver system with a built in powered woofer); Songer Audio with field coil wide range drivers (both the single driver and two-way system); Audio Note AN-E. |
As I believe this post was started tongue in cheek, the only thing I will add is that equipment cannot be compared in the parameters of generation. My Pioneer HPM speakers in 1978 brought me more musical joy then than I can even hope for out of my way better speakers now. Context and perspective should always be considered. I still have the HPM's and a pair of Pioneer CS888A's that sound awesome. |
The oldest speakers that I have owned are 1972 vintage Large Advents. I agree with the previous post except that the “custom” real wood veneer cabinets were not too bad looking. I have owned many pair since the mid 70’s and still find them to be quite good. one pair were restored/modified by Bill Legall from Millersound. He called the mods his “secret sauce.” They were remarkable! I also have enjoyed several pair of vintage Sansui speakers from the same era. They were made by Coral.inJapan and were quite good, especially the Alnico models. I have also been fortunate enough to have heard the Deja Vu Western Electric builds in their VA showroom. I am so thankful that Vu offered to show them to me. By far the best sound I have heard in a showroom demo. They were powered by vintage Western Electric amplifiers (from the 30’s) which Deja Vu also rebuilds. |
The oldest speakers that I have owned are 1972 vintage Large Advents. I agree with the previous post except that the “custom” real wood veneer cabinets were not too bad looking. I have owned many pair since the mid 70’s and still find them to be quite good. one pair were restored/modified by Bill Legall from Millersound. He called the mods his “secret sauce.” They were remarkable! I also have enjoyed several pair of vintage Sansui speakers from the same era. They were made by Coral.in Japan and were quite good, especially the Alnico models. I have also been fortunate enough to have heard the Deja Vu Western Electric builds in their VA showroom. I am so thankful that Vu offered to show them to me. By far the best sound I have heard in a showroom demo. They were powered by vintage Western Electric amplifiers (from the 30’s) which Deja Vu also rebuilds. |
Radio Shack Optimus Ones were my first speakers as a teenager. They were hand me downs from my father and I loved them. Always wanted JBLs L100 s and have them now in a second vintage system. My main system has Tannoy Churchill’s, a long way from the Radio Shacks. I wouldn’t say vintage speakers were bad at all, they were the pioneers to where we are today! I love vintage equipment, especially now when I can afford the things I could only dream about when I was very young and very poor….. |
I think we need to define the "term" vintage in a generic sense. Perhaps: "Products that represent good examples of those offered during a prior period of a rapidly expanding culurtal adoption of a product or category?" Another aspect we need to acknowledge is that speakers were (and still are) referred to as "speaker systems." Raw drivers, dividing networks, cables, cablnets, terminations, etc. make up the system. Technology has evolved in all the above. We can "pop the hood" (or, raise the bonnet for UK members) and observe that we’ve made major strides in the decades following the developmnet of those "vintage" speakers. We may find that the technology/performace of the raw driver(s) in the system may be an "8" out of 10 on current caliper of performance for their driver type. We may find that the "other stuff" inside the box is a "3" out of ten on today’s scale, with the total "speaker system" performing at a "6.2" on the 10 scale. Applying "never thinking" inside the box may get us to a solid "8" without changing the raw drivers or effecting the esthetics of the speaker. The ability to "revert back to stock" is a viable consideration. So, don’t whack away at things indiscretely, and keep those OEM parts around. Who can predict the future value of a highly collectable example of original vintage audio gear? We’ve performed a good number of "vintage" audio upgrades. I’ve been asked to "improve the performance" of speakers that, to put it mildly, were not in my Top 10 of desirable speakers. After "doing what we do", I’ve found myself setting between a pair of speakers that I wouldn’t have taken as as gift in their stock form, and actually enjoying the music, reaching for "one more demo cut" to listen to during an extended evaluation session. Conclusion: The overall design and raw drivers of vintage speakers can be quite good, if you’re willing to just open them up and let them play. |
If my GNP Valkeryies were made in ‘80, it can be assumed that they were designed in the ‘70’s- the drivers were all made in the ‘70’s. These sound fantastic a three different stacked enclosures , middle enclosure was lead lined to reduce vibration, wundercaps in the crossovers, this design has since been copied by Wilson ( “ Watt Puppy”). |
In general I would agree. Then in the early - through late 70s some of the best American designs from JBL, Altec Lansing, Infinity and others began emerging! Here’s an interesting video on the topic: Bringing Your Vintage Audio System into the 21st Century |
Low efficiency, direct radiating speakers with voice coil-fitted drivers - as they're mostly represented today - have improved in a range of areas over the last ~50 years. ESL's fundamentally haven't. The pro segment of speakers have seen their improvements as well, not least for their intended applications and to accommodate in some cases a smaller size factor in the LF-region via different designs and much more powerful drivers, but as has been pointed to already a selection of vintage pro drivers have a dedicated following due to their sonic characteristics. Their lighter overall moving mass (incl. voice coils) - some of them with field coils and others with Alnico magnets - and lower power handling can lead to a "snappier" presentation as well as a fuller, more organic tone, not least as a distinctive feature at lower SPL's where they seem to come better to life. To me at least, while finding there's definite merit to their popularity, there's also sometimes a particularity to their sound that's not necessarily about "neutrality." Seeing also the prices of such units being often preposterously sized it becomes a niche market to a select, sometimes wealthy following of audiophiles that pursue of specific sonic imprinting. In any case I'd take most any of a range of older (or newer), larger pro horn speakers - typically aimed at cinema usage - over modern (or older) day low eff. hifi dittos with their vastly more realistically scaled, effortless and uninhibited presentation. Most domestically aimed horns/horn hybrid speakers fall short here as well being they're size constrained; while it may make them a better fit with the spouse and caters to interior decoration demands, a compressed size factor with this segment of speakers really robs them of their fuller potential. It's not about domestic or pro application here, but simply what serves the design and the physics involved - in a home environment as well. And that, physics, is what the pro segment of horn-based speakers got right from the beginning, many decades ago, so even while they were less extended in the frequency extremes they got the important basics right in a way that newer, smaller domestic designs in the same segment can only dream of achieving. And that's not about age, but rather - to reiterate the above - what complies with physics the best way possible. |
@inna , “Any vintage speakers that sound as good overall as, say, JM Labs Grand Utopia ?” ohh hell no! IMHO of course lol. My dream speaker when they promote me to head cheese or I win the lottery. |
There are probably one hundred speakers that qualify for the top five. I certainly have heard but a small fraction of the speakers designed as statement products. A friend who attends the Munich show and some shows in Japan throws out names of companies I have never even heard of their names. I doubt that there would be anything close to a consensus of what companies should be near the top of the list if you polled those who have heard a lot of different speakers. Depending on the type of sound you like, the list would vary greatly and even if my taste differs dramatically from someone else, I would respect that list. If, for example, someone put the Borresen flagship at the top of the list, I know that person favors open top end, speed, clarity and precise imaging (which are all good things), but, my own preference would be for a fuller sound and greater "weight" to the sound. Would I put the Gobel flagship near the top (weighty, big sound)? Maybe, but, it requires a lot of power which means the kind of amps I tend not to favor, so I would not know for sure unless I heard it in a familiar setting (which would never happen). Would I put up for consideration a low-cost speaker with limitations on bass response, high volume capability, etc., but is SO musically satisfying (Charney Audio Companion)? Yes, I might, and not just because it is reasonably price, compact , and practical (it is also high in efficiency); it just plain sounds good. The same with the Songer Audio field coil speakers I've heard--lacking in deep bass, but very musical and reasonably practical. The Rosso Fiorentino speakers? I don't know, I heard and liked them, but, I need to hear them more. It is pretty much impossible for me to make my own list of top fives, never mind someone compiling a more universal top five list. My own personal list would not even have commercial systems on it--I've heard a number of custom builds that sound better than any commercial models I've heard. |
The list of speakers that were so bad I could eliminate them in a showroom is so long it would not fit on this page. Price not withstanding. Instead let me mention a few that were at least listenable. If I lived in NY, maybe I could hear a wider selection, but between the DC, Richmond and Piedmont area not so many. On the way-above-what-I could-pay, the newest Wilsons have gotten much better. The big Sonas Fabers, big Maggies, big Martin Logans I could live with, but I am limited to stand mount and an income not in the top 1/2%. They all still have severe shortcomings. If one was "right" everyone would copy it and they would all sound the same. Even price-no-object, they sound very different. If two are different, at least one is wrong. Dropping down to what semi-normal audiophile people can buy, The Mofi 8 was not too bad. 2Ce's continue to fill the "do no wrong" slot. I want to hear the mid-tier Sonas Fabers but no one has them. Same, upper end Dunaudio I would like to hear. Moving down to entry, the SF Lumina's were nice. Revel's are at least balanced, but the tweeters get to me. At the level higher than 99% of the market who just buy a Wal-Mart sound bar or Bose system, the Elac 2.1s are better than I could build for the price. I have a pair, slightly modified, in my woodshop. A lot of speakers may be better if the showrooms had any eq as they are so bright it they make my fillings hurt. ( Hear that B&W, Paradigm, Canton!) I still have never heard ANY hard dome I could tolerate and the new AMTs are even worse. A few ribbons are OK at nearfield low level, but horrible otherwise. Basically can't stand horns, but I wish I could have heard a Geddes. If there was any speaker that was the biggest disservice to High Fidelity, it was the Bose 901. Singularly one of the worst speakers I ever heard. Diffuse sound yea, but mushy ill-defined bass, honky mids and no highs. The 301 was a much better speaker. Bad eq aside, their mids were relatively low distortion. |
