I bought a set of interconnects and speaker wires from Sparkler Audio of Japan, at the same time I got my DAC from them. All very high quality, hand made to order and very reasonably priced. My Harbeths sound great with them.
Affordable cables
We all know and can't dispute that SR and other uber expensive cables can do magic with your systems however most of us aspiring audiophiles simply can't afford them. So I would like to hear from some of our colleagues who worked their way up the cable chain what if any cables priced at $100.00 or less made or make the most difference to a system. Interconnects specifically. Thanks
Audiomaze
Audiomaze
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@marqmike PBJ cables are interconnects, not speaker cables, so their interaction is with the electronics. In my experience, with good electronics, they are relatively neutral. So, if a listener finds them 'wolly, dynamic killers', I'd surmise the user has dull speakers and a very bright cable/electronics combination. |
audiozenology68 posts12-18-2019 6:11amHow exactly do they "kills dynamic" and "sounds wolly all over". Through the speakers I think. |
colnagofan1 posts12-18-2019 3:46amKimber PBJs are great interconnects that work well with a wide range of equipment. A classic. No, they are definetly not. Sounds wolly all over and kills dynamic |
Back to the original question... There are many companies that have an entry level tier all the way through “reference”. If you have a good local hifi shop, see if you can audition/demo some cabling. Audio Advisor has a 30 day return on pretty much everything I believe. SVS has some good cabling, even the McIntosh rep at my local shop recommends them. Transparent Audio has a trade up system, Audioquest does some good cables as well. I’ve got a set of Blue Jeans Belden 5000 10g on my Marantz/B&W system that sounds great. Great cable for the $. So many options... I will say this, for all the cable craziness, hands down, the best cable “upgrade” I have made is power. Both at the wall outlet and cable. I was astounded by the absolute difference. |
I think the guy who ran Music Metre moved on some time ago. I remember going to his place (I believe it was in Glendale, Ca.) and he made his cables in his work shed behind his house. At the time, he had every connector made and spools of wire and sheathing. He'd lay the cables on his table, put a load on them, and measure them with his multi meter. Then, he'd flip them around and measure again. He did that with every cable he made and made sure that both runs ran in the same direction, before final assembly. He'd then mark them for directionality. And this was back in the early '90s. Seems some people were ahead of their time. All the best, Nonoise |
"Nonoise" mentioned "Music Metre" cables. Did that company go out out business or did some other entity take over and change the name? The company's web site went offline circa 2009. I'm asking because I rather like(d) them: attractive design and (as far as I can tell), decent sound relative to lower-end Kimber at least. |
"....If I were in the market for a new set of cables, I'd look into some of the smaller, cottage industry types who don't have the market exposure and need to factor all of those ads into their pricing." Nonoise, That's exactly what I did when I needed some interconnects. I had Take Five Audio make several sets using cryoed Mogami 2534 and Furutech connectors. Excellent quality/value and they outperformed all the expensive ICs I had on hand. |
Hi audiomaze, putting some pressure on me, I hope you do like the Mogami. I can only tell you that in my system I did not like how the Belden LC-1 speaker cables I purchased from Blue Jeans sounded, but loved how the Canare speaker cables I purchased through Blue Jeans sounded and also how the Mogami interconnects purchased through another outfit sounded. I liked the Mogami interconnects better than Canare, Cardas Neutral Reference and Meitner interconnects. |
And next on the shopping channel .... Does it slice, dice, and Julienne? No wire exists outside LCR no matter what someone wants to write or claim whether a room temperature liquid metal, solid state or quasi. It will have R (significant at that) as well as L and C. If you are claiming otherwise, being the only new thing in 150 years (it's like superconductivity does not exist), I am sure you have lots of data to back it up? |
Some people are impressed by bling. Most of these non-diy cables have lots of fancy marketing blurb but little in the way of real technology. They throw around terms like nano, and quantum like it means anything at the bulk level of an AC signal. It doesn’t. If they had ant real tech they would talk in terms that actually mattered ... But ever notice they rarely do? Look at SRs factory tour videos. They don’t have the equipment to do anything that looks like real R&D. There is barely anything approaching real electronics test equipment. It’s barely hobbyist stuff. I expect many DIY cable builders are equal or better equipped. the only new things since the dawn of electricity as we know it, is the Teo Audio cables, with liquid metal conductors. It’s the only ’not wire’ in known human existence. All wire is a frozen lattice of atoms. So is any infused wire like a jacket or some semi etc crystal material. Still a solid or frozen lattice. the fluid metal alloy is a true and actual atomic level fluid. As fine as water, it is. (close enough, that is). and that infers a fundamental change in electrical conductivity within and upon the conductivity system to something that is quantum kinetic. A wholly different beast. math so complex we don’t have the supercomputing power yet to calculate it. Nor do we truly know what to do to model it. Only partial and only in sections, and only with a few atoms. So stands as the first time anyone ever gets to hear the difference of wire as audio cable. The first actual ’not wire’ that anyone gets a chance to experience. So there is all cables, all conductors, all materials on one side, be it DIY or pro or commercial or home depot, or cat 5 or car audio or high end audio types, all the same and all on the one side. And on the other, is just one thing --the Liquid metal audio cables. It exits outside of the stated norms of audio LCR, and that... is a reality that is impossible to intelligently dispute. So yeah, there really is something new under the sun. The newest thing in conductivity technology for wire type applications -the first fundamental change in over 150 years. |
That $250 RIGOL scope and that $35 multi-meter inspires almost as much confidence as the cheap varistat and hand soldered PCBs .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yzjA9ZYYNk |
Some people are impressed by bling. Most of these non-diy cables have lots of fancy marketing blurb but little in the way of real technology. They throw around terms like nano, and quantum like it means anything at the bulk level of an AC signal. It doesn't. If they had ant real tech they would talk in terms that actually mattered ... But ever notice they rarely do? Look at SRs factory tour videos. They don't have the equipment to do anything that looks like real R&D. There is barely anything approaching real electronics test equipment. It's barely hobbyist stuff. I expect many DIY cable builders are equal or better equipped. |
@millercarbon " Wait, I got a better one: how is this even slightly controversial? Just assume, for the sake of argument, it really is possible to assemble some off the shelf parts and get truly outstanding performance. Your DIY cable, (sorry, laughing, hard to type) so secret you found it on the interweb (right?) anyone can do it, and its so awesomely better than anything else, and for cheap, and yet there's all these guys making obscene profits too dumb to figure out they can make even more building your DIY, slapping a fancy sticker with a name on it? There's a ton of em Would they not be doing this? So where are they? Oh and also at the same time the pro's would be testing and tweaking and finding trick ways to take all those same parts up a whole level, just so they can sell for even more. Leaving your regular old DIY in the dust. Its one, or its the other. Notice nowhere in there is the scenario where the DIY really is good. Because they never are. Sorry. You got to at least pick a semi-defensible position to have any chance at all here. And this ain't it. " ------------------ You`re a bit of an arrogant yerk millercarbon and I kind if like that as long as you are talented as well. Are you? Tell me what ic`s you`re using and I`ll send you a set. |
It's too bad that Cabledyne went out of business. Their engineer worked for Belden Cable & Wire for 20 years and he came up with a cable that was better than what he used to design for Belden. It involved a type of shielding and had a different cable geometry and dielectric than what you'd find on a "standard" cable. The best part was it was not an expensive cable, relatively speaking. You could get interconnects for about $150 and speaker cables that cost me about $350 for a 6' pair. The ICs weren't as good as my Darwin ICs so I asked for a RA to return them. Puzzled by that, Ed Bowman asked why I was returning them since no one had ever done that. He asked for my take on them so I obliged him. Once they were returned, he asked if I would try out a new set of ICs and give some more feedback. I did. And the new ones came scary close to the sound of Darwin's entry level line at 1/3 the cost. All they did was to swap out the standard terminations for some Cardas Silver brand of terminations and if I'd heard only that, I would have thought I'd hit the cable lottery. I let him know that when I returned them and for the life of me, I don't know why they didn't change to those ICs as it wouldn't have been that big a price increase. They would've had an eternal backorder to deal with. As for their speaker cables, they smoked any pair I used before them. Zu Mission, Zu Event, Music Metre, Mapleshade Double Helix, and a few more that I can't remember. When they had a Holiday Sale on their top of the line Virtuoso Speaker Cables, I jumped on them without hesitation since they were 50% off. Never looked back. No intention of looking further. The whole point of this is that I don't believe that one has to settle for something because someone else holds forth on the belief that what they say is good enough because, engineering. The world is full of engineers and no two will decide on what's good enough for others, let alone themselves. There are shills on both sides of this equation and somewhere, in the middle, are some great finds, depending on your budget. Like Williwonka said, some cables require a lot of work to complete and use better than average design and construction, which is reflected in the cost. One must not assume that all of that cost is some very high markup. If I were in the market for a new set of cables, I'd look into some of the smaller, cottage industry types who don't have the market exposure and need to factor all of those ads into their pricing. All the best, Nonoise |
@millercarbon - re:... Wait, I got a better one: how is this even slightly controversial? Just assume, for the sake of argument, it really is possible to assemble some off the shelf parts and get truly outstanding performance. Your DIY cable, (sorry, laughing, hard to type) so secret you found it on the interweb (right?) anyone can do it, and its so awesomely better than anything else, and for cheap, and yet there’s all these guys making obscene profits too dumb to figure out they can make even more building your DIY, slapping a fancy sticker with a name on it? There’s a ton of em Would they not be doing this?You "appear" to make a valid case. But let’s break it down... and yet there’s all these guys making obscene profits too dumb to figure out they can make even more building your DIY, slapping a fancy sticker with a name on it?Well - the "high performance" DIY cables that I am aware of... 1. are made from specialist (expensive) parts that I DO NOT consider "off the shelf" 2. they use very high quality wires in their construction 3. they are not easy to fabricate because they use an unconventional cable geometry 4. resulting in an expensive & time consuming build process. This makes it difficult to scale up to a cost-effective manufacturing process, which in turn makes it unprofitable, even for the smaller cable fabricators. That’s why "these guys" - Would NOT be doing this with the more advanced designs. Regarding your statement... Just assume, for the sake of argument, it really is possible to assemble some off the shelf parts and get truly outstanding performance.Like you, I have been there and found the cables I built that used conventional cable geometries (i.e. bulk cable) to be disappointing. So that part of your post I do agree with - in some part. But you do seem to be generalizing and "tarring" ALL DIY cables with the "same brush", which I have found is not the case. I do believe my DIY cables are actually competing with the very best commercially available brands for a fraction of the cost and that belief has been substantiated by the many DIY’er across the globe that have taken the time to pass on their positive observations. Just thought I would share a differing point of view, so other readers can form their own beliefs/opinions. May you ALL have an excellent holiday season - Steve :-) |
If true this would actually be an achievement. One of the most experienced cable DIYers here, Erik, sometimes manages to build a pair that are only off by about 2 dB R to L. Yeah. DIY is that good. I guarantee it. Short of a poorly made turntable cable no cable, cheap, diy or other mismatches this much side to side or cable to cable anywhere the audio band. This appears to be a made up or misquoted number. Why do people post such obviously erroneous hyperbole? |
. That takes moore skills. I am a golden ear but not so much without my system. Right. So here's what happens, or at least can happen, or at least is what I have actually seen happen. Person starts out not even able to hear something as obvious as the difference between a budget and really good CD player |
audiozenology In this thread alone there are many who claim to have superior hearing ...Of course you provide no example. Your "golden ear" is just a strawman argument. |
audiozenology ... when I run into audiophiles with claimed golden ears ...I've never met an audiophile who claimed to have "golden ears" or superior hearing. Indeed, the audiophiles I know think that just about anyone could hear what they hear, provided they're willing to listen. |
millercarbon, I do understand from your repeated posts that you and a buddy ended up being disappointed with the cables you made. But somehow you seem to be thinking that I have a reason to believe that either you or your buddy have the talent to source good wire and the ability to assemble the cables, after you admit you did not. Member grannyring started making DIY cables using Dueland wire and now sells them on A’gon under the "Acoustic BBQ" brand name. You can see for yourself his cable’s overwhelmingly positive reviews by many audiophiles. It was wrong of me to highlight that you echo your love for SR cables, you are among many here that repeadely trumpet their preference for a particular brand. |
In the overall scheme of things people would generally be much better off if they paid more attention to system engineering aspects of cables. Respect the directionality of wire. Elevate or suspend all cables and power cords. Clean and treat all electrical connections. If your cables aren’t cryo’d at the factory send them off to the cryo lab ASAP. If you are using vibration isolation make sure cables and power cords don’t pull on the set up as that will mess up the isolation effectiveness. |
millercarbon, the fact is that you have convinced yourself that all home brewed cables are failures based on one persons botched attempts. Your message to all DIYers is you are doing them a favor telling them to give up before they have started and just accept your message of ultimate failure. Every company that makes cables originally started with one person coming up with the idea and developing the project. Well, no. Every time I tell that story its made perfectly clear this was anything but a one-off botched attempt, as you put it. The guy spent, sorry but since you missed it earlier I'm gonna shout, DECADES building COUNTLESS cables in his basement lab. This was his best, his One Cable, his Precious. The best he ever did. But his whole system was chock full of DIY cables. Only time music actually gave me a headache, his system with the DIY cables everywhere. Oh and also, I tried a few myself. Dismal failures all. Pathetic. When I score I score, and this, wasn't even a rim shot. I have yet to hear the DIY cable no matter how great come anywhere even close to cheap pro wire. These stories are not made up by the way. They're years in experience in the making. The exact opposite of blowing smoke, you know, like "every company originally started..." Have you met even ONE of these guys? Which one? Wait, I got a better one: how is this even slightly controversial? Just assume, for the sake of argument, it really is possible to assemble some off the shelf parts and get truly outstanding performance. Your DIY cable, (sorry, laughing, hard to type) so secret you found it on the interweb (right?) anyone can do it, and its so awesomely better than anything else, and for cheap, and yet there's all these guys making obscene profits too dumb to figure out they can make even more building your DIY, slapping a fancy sticker with a name on it? There's a ton of em Would they not be doing this? So where are they? Oh and also at the same time the pro's would be testing and tweaking and finding trick ways to take all those same parts up a whole level, just so they can sell for even more. Leaving your regular old DIY in the dust. Its one, or its the other. Notice nowhere in there is the scenario where the DIY really is good. Because they never are. Sorry. You got to at least pick a semi-defensible position to have any chance at all here. And this ain't it. As for beating the SR drum, go to their classified pages here on A’gon and you will see 100’s of ads by their dealers, no need to plug their rather astronomically priced (recognizing they are not alone in their pricing) Nano quantum products. Uh oh. What Freudian's call a slip. |
Zu Audio sells some of their cables on eBay. They are just fine and you may get them for (relatively) cheap. $100-200 is frequently a norm. Then borrow someone’s expensive cables and compare to make your own opinion. For whatever it is worth, Hosa XLR cables (about $15 per pair) and Shunyata Venom XLR cables (around $300-350, if I remember correctly) sound just the same. Shunyata looks better, though. |
ieales523 posts12-14-2019 2:01am Some unbiased audiophiles can give an honest answerAin't no such thing. EVERY audiophile who references their cable in their system in their room in their degree of intoxication has a validity factor of 1 / (number of audiophiles) or so close to zero as to be inconsequential. Cables interact with other components. Whether they are chalk or cheese depends on the rest of the system and the room biased by personal proclivities. -------------- Not true. I`ve been in this discussion before and it can off course not be solved over the net. But I invited some "septics" to my home and wow no moore discussion. Why? Because my system is totally open, clean & clear, as beeing there and everyone (moore or less) can hear any difference, though not everyone knows how to evaluate them. That takes moore skills. I am a golden ear but not so much without my system. Very few has a tool like I have, but they are still trying to evaluate stuff in their moore cloudy systems. That`s like evaluating diamonds in the basement with sunglasses on, it`s worth nothing. This is why I recommend to take the object they plant to buy and bring it to a seasoned audiophiles system, compare it to his moore ekspensive equipment and by that get some enlightening. I did this when I was a beginner, it saved me a lot of trouble. |
I agree with several posters here on many of the basics. I do believe that a cable’s net effect will be system dependent. Maybe it’s a given, but first and foremost, your system has to have the resolution to reveal subtle details and differences. Or say your system has a certain brightness to it (maybe you’re aware of it or maybe not, maybe you like that brightness or maybe you don’t) the cables impact on the sound may be a positive one or not, but not necessarily because it’s a bad cable. It’s just a bad fit with your particular set-up. And just because you had an eargasm with your new interconnects, not everyone else will have a similar response. A hard lesson ($) for me has been learning that reading about a particular component or tweak and then hearing it, at home in my system, are two really different things. We can't help but be affected sometimes by the enthusiasm of our compatriots. Also in that vein, and I think this is important, sometimes a change will just sound different. Not necessarily better, but different and only time and careful listening will reveal if something is really better. I bought an entry level DAC some years back because I wanted to find out for myself if they really made such a huge difference and whether I should I be exploring that option. One thing I learned was that the sound was slightly different using the player’s DAC vs the outboard DAC, but not necessarily always better. Outboard DAC = bigger soundstage; disc player = better bass. Wasn’t really counting on that result, because I anticipated that the DAC would be waaaay better. But I’m always learning something in this hobby. That’s part of what makes it fun. A lesson for me on cables came when some time ago my system developed a persistent noise and in the course of trying to isolate the cause I tried swapping out cables. Well the cable wasn’t the problem, but the noise changed with each cable I tried. Even more surprising, the most quiet of all was a pair of RCAs that were originally part of the home theater set-up I inherited with the house. They were obviously made by the installation tech on site because there were no markings on them at all and were of slightly unequal length. Never really tested them for sound quality, but very clearly quieter than my AQ, Morrow and Kimber ICs. Wasn’t really expecting that either. Finally, I was definitely a cable skeptic for a long time. Cheap cables, bad? Yeah sure. Name brand cables better? Probably. Alter the character of your system? Wake up your speakers? Reveal some new musical truth? I sure didn’t think so. Pay hundreds of $$$ for an IC or PC? No way Jose. Well, I’m definitely in the other camp now, even though I have never spent more than a couple of hundred bucks on a cable. I have come to appreciate the positive difference good cables can make. But I had to arrive at that place on my own, over time. Everything DOES matter and that includes the wires. My suggestion here Audiomaze, is to start slow and experiment with just one; either ICs or PCs or speaker wire. Don’t really know what your system is like, but if you’re like most folks here and have thousands of dollars invested in carefully selected equipment, you will definitely hear the impact of a $100-$250 cable in your set-up over more generic cables. Pricier gear will reveal more, with better ($$) cables. I have heard the number of 10% to 15% bandied about. That might be a useful guideline for you. $1000 amp? Start with an IC at $100/$150. $3000 amp? Try a $300 cable and go from there depending on what you hear. Everyone here will have their favorites. I favor the journey of discovery for what it reveals about your system and for what you learn along the way. |
Some unbiased audiophiles can give an honest answerAin't no such thing. EVERY audiophile who references their cable in their system in their room in their degree of intoxication has a validity factor of 1 / (number of audiophiles) or so close to zero as to be inconsequential. Cables interact with other components. Whether they are chalk or cheese depends on the rest of the system and the room biased by personal proclivities. |
@unfairlane - just to clarify my post... RE: You are wrong there Steve. My simple diy ic`s are cheap I was actually referring to my DIY cables being a bit pricey, not all DIY cables :-) As for... but I can guarantee that you`ll never find anything betterYep - I make the same claim about my cables :-) What I have observed... - There are some great DIY options out there. - DIY can compete with established products from NAME BRANDS. - The adventurous among us will try them - The sceptics among us will ridicule them - I accept DIY may not be for everyone - But cables do improve sound quality Go in peace everyone - happy holidays Regards - Steve |
