Advice for upgrading my system

I would make a trip to Deer Park just 1/2 hour west of Denver and meet Roger Sanders
and Josh of Sanders sound. You may leave $17k poorer!

My listening time is precious and it is dedicated to vinyl.
Think your Sonos is enough for casual listening and convenience.
Upgrade your front end!
Definitely get a Technics 1200G TT.
super bang for the buck and a TT to build upon
And a Lyra Kleos or Etna
most other cartridges are little boxes with a cantilever… not Lyra
And considering your room, get a used pair of TAD small monitors.
a speaker to live happily with
To upgrade from your Macs, AGD Audion mono blocks but you will need a preamp. There are several good ones used for around $5K.
But the AGD amps are, by far, the greatest amps I have used in 50 years! And they would be a great match with the TADs.
And a Zesto Andros phono stage. The most gorgeous tube sound,
Absolutely delicious.
You may love the Mac sound and may want to keep them.

somebody snapped up the JVC 2 arm plinth and TT71 around the same time. Smart!

Anyone here?

OP,

STEREO BASS

when choosing new speakers, i.e. the Bass: I believe the fundamentals and overtones give location cues, REL yaps about Phase, and cohesiveness with the mains, others say ...

REL

https://rel.net/blog/2017-07-28/reconsider/consider-stereo-rels/

Sound Environment


https://www.soundenvironment.com/the-value-of-stereo-subwoofers/

This Guy

https://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/stereo-subwoofers.htm

This guy decided so in 2011

https://audiophilereview.com/subwoofers/why-i-like-stereo-subwoofers/

Bose 801 Speakers & Pair of Forte 5 Amps (combined total: $2,000.)

Another ’instant’ jump up in the speaker department, use them while researching, find something you love later, sell em.

selling here, local pick-up, New Jersey (near me).

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisabd1b-b-w-bowers-wilkins-801-full-range?refsource=hifishark

I presume, same seller, they were driven by this PAIR of Forte Model 5’s

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisabd18-forte-model-5-solid-state

some Forte Model 5 info in an expired ad here

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-forte-audio-model-5-amplifier-2013-06-15-amplifiers-85...
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You didn’t mention your cables, did you?  You got silver interconnects and high end digital cables and power cords?  For a great system, it fulfills the gears’ potential.  Darwin cables for example for ICs… David Laboga for digital… PM me for details if helpful.

I would go for a speaker upgrade first and then your cartridge then your amplifier and phono stage and if you get the right kind of speaker for your room you will not need a subwoofer anymore at all. You have the start to a great system but you can modify it to be truly excellent and for a lot less than 30k.

If you are auditioning speakers, I would suggest giving Maggie’s a listen.  I was sold on mine when listening to Brubeck, as the resolution is amazing.

Good luck in your journey!

So, your Monitor Audio speakers don't give you that holographic image, despite your room treatment?  What do they sound like?

IMHO: I would suggest any one of the three speakers below for that live feeling. 

ttps://www.crutchfield.com/S-Jf7EJ9e1kUT/shopsearch/heritage_cornwall_iv.html?XVINQ=GW3&XVVer=5MY&a...

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/M2System--jbl-m2-reference-monitor-system

https://www.musicdirect.com/speakers/JBL-S4700-Tower-Speakers

OP - I just purchased some Klipsch Forte IV’s for the purpose of pairing with tube amps. On my list is something new from the Wizards at BAT:
VK-80i Integrated Amplifier — Balanced Audio Technology
BTW, where are you located?

Thank you to all for the advice you are providing. Most of my knowledge is pretty dated so I am finding all the input very helpful.  So far a DAC, speakers and  cartridges are on the shopping list.  I will start to visit audio stores next week. Your knowledgable guidance helps with lowering the intimidation factor involved the shopping process. I will open my mind to consider a tube integrated amp as well. I didn't mention earlier, I am recently retired, this is a life time gift to myself. My continued gratitude for your advice.

Oops, correction. Rick at AA. Ron is with Gold Sound. He has good selection a little lite on the speakers.

Ron at Audio Alternative in Ft Collins has a great selection of gear and speakers.

Speakers: Pick them for your Space.

I would only consider subs if my room was too small for large mains, you could go for large forward firing mains (no ports).

Efficient, so when you try tubes (which you will eventually) you won’t need too much power. It’s not just about less cost: smaller SS or tube amp means less weight, heat, cost, and gives options for placement the big ones do not. Placement of an Integrated Tube amp needs to be convenient, another reason to start with efficient speakers so the 30-35-40 wpc category is enough. Less cost leaves more $ for the great speakers!

Aiming a remote control successfully for volume or balance is something placement effects
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What I have owned, loved, highly recommend:

Prior: JSE Infinite Slope, Model II

http://www.audioreview.com/product/speakers/floorstanding-speakers/js-engineering/infinite-slope.htm...

Just buy these Blond Ones (2A, updated crossover), they will sound awesome I assure you. They will reveal just how nice your electronics are, spectacular imaging, incredibly accurate frequency response, and reveal existing and new cartridge’s performance.

Find something else you love later, sell em.

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649755415-infinite-slope-model-2a/

btw, the smaller model 1’s (my friend had them) are terrific for a smaller space.

http://www.hifi-classic.net/review/jse-infinity-slope-model-1-486.html

Joseph Audio has current models that use Richard Modafferi’s Infinite Slope, I never heard any of his.

The Model 2’s also have R.M.’s patented Phase Shift Bass Loading (method of progressively controlling the output of the 10" and 12" woofers), also a big part of their success IMO.

"Richard Modafferi , inventor and independent consultant to AudioClassics, has established himself as one of the world’s foremost authorities on tuner & loudspeaker design and development. He holds Masters degrees in Electrical Engineering and Computer Science from the NJ Institute of Technology. A Senior Engineer at McIntosh Laboratories from 1968-74, he designed the MR77 and MR78 tuners and the famous "Rimo" filter. The MR78 tuner has received world wide acclaim for its State of the Art performance. From 1974 to the present, Richard has been a self employed inventor at Modafferi Acoustical Systems, Inc. He has been granted a United States patent for Phase Shift Bass Loading and for the Infinite Slope Crossover. Richard also serves as a writer, reviewer and test lab for Audio, Audio Critic, The Sensible Sound".

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Currently Using: custom enclosure with 15" woofers, horn mid and horn tweeters, AND, importantly to adjust to your (any) space, a pair of L-Pads, attenuators to boost or cut the volume of the mids and highs relative to the woofer. Crossover designed with mid-attenuation: boost for dead rooms; cut for bright rooms, alter for your ears or taste, adjust them again when you move!
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These Electro-Voice Model E-V Six components are driving me crazy as a project

https://www.ebay.com/itm/154513478054

https://www.ebay.com/itm/363294554414

Someone, you could design new enclosures for the drivers: wide at the bottom for the 18" woofers facing forward, slanted front for time alignment; reduce width as possible to fit the mid-bass cone (in the inner wood box); mid horn and horn tweeter up at seated ear level; deep enough for enough cubic feet of air; an optional port which I would not use here; and put them on felt, a slip sheet, or 3 wheels with solid axels for ’possible’ movement (not easy movement) to allow toe-in adjustment when friends listen with me.

The 5 position resistor network to alter frequency response will be a terrific start to adjusting them to your space/ears/taste. When your ability to hear highs droops, boost them a speck each decade!

orig specs of Model E-V Six

https://products.electrovoice.com/binary/E-V%20Six%20EDS.pdf

you should add a dedicated dac streamer which will really elevate the systems overall performance a sonos shouldnt  be used in a high end setup

I would look at a lumin t2

then upgrade subwofer we import the mj acoustics subs from the uk

please feel free to contact us 30 years of experience

dave and troy
audio intellect nj
lumin dealers

The Atlas told me to mind my own business.

"The McIntosh a tranny amp?"

How would you know? Do amplifiers self-identify? I'll go ask my Rogue Atlas right now.

I’ve had the chance to hear a pretty sweet, fairly high budget system a few times this year. He’s got Magico S5 MkIIs powered by Convergent tube amp and tube preamp. The system is stunning, and is the first time in a long time that I found a system that I enjoyed more than mine. The Convergent stuff is world class, usually pretty pricey, and is rarely found on the used market, but you never know. I had never heard Magico speakers before, but the fact that he had them in the system speaks volumes about them....also worth a look/listen.

The McIntosh a tranny amp? 

Ok, I still recommend a fresh pair of speakers but without the tube friendly part.

FWIW, I thought your electronic were older than they are. My mistake. I also discovered a SS amp. I'm sold out to tubes, so I would recommend a good tube integrated. And if you get that bug you will see the need for those tube friendly speakers.

Then there is also the phono cartridge which I forgot in my 1st post. I'm into Zyx at the time but there are many good choices. 

I tried re-reading my previous post and it gave me a headache.
Let me try again...
I recommend B&W 800 series speakers.
You can get a used 800D3 (flagship) speaker for low $20s.
You could probably get a new 802D3 for same money.
Please note: B&W revamping the 800 series to "D4" status
and dealers will be anxious to move their D3's.
Should be some good discounts at large dealers.
Small dealers seldom have the higher priced models in stock.
Good luck.

With equipment as old as these pieces, caps and a good cleaning is in order for the electronics.  I agree with @pauly about tube friendly speaker with 93db efficiency as a min. Rel subs are the way to go because they also increase the sonic goodness of the mains as well. If you are going to start streaming I'd recommend Aurender  streamer or maybe Melco. It's all about the software. You need a streamer which has built in Hard Drive(s). This eliminates some of the excessive handshakes which must take place through the network. IMO, the software is as important as the hardware in making for a good experience. And this is where many streamers miss the mark IMO. If you are willing to rent your music, the Qobuz has made it easier to stream through lesser systems. Hope this helps.

I would, like a few others, suggest a speaker upgrade but not any of those suggested. You need to find speakers that are voiced for your amplifier i.e. tube friendly speakers.

I’d start off by speaking to the folks at McIntosh and hear what they recommend, or see if there is a McIntosh owners group and speak to them.

If the digital side is going to be considered, Mojo-Audio is an option that should not be overlooked. 

What am I looking to improve?

Ultimately I have been influenced by hearing some incredible systems. As an example I listened to Brubeck's Take Five and I felt like I was sitting in the band and every instrument was clear, crisp and balanced. Mind you this particular system was way out of my reach.  My question is how do I approach that sound with my budget?

- Improved clarity and separation of the instruments
- Better sound imaging
- Speakers that sound great and that can handle to power of the McIntosh 

Interesting mix.  I haven't had a chance to hear every piece of gear, but it's interesting that you have speakers I consider warm to laid back, along with a lot of electronics I consider quite bright.

Since I haven't heard a turntable in years, my suggestion might be to explore your digital side.

Also, what do you want out of your system??

@bhc148, given the list of gear and listening environment you already have a good base line to make good decisions for yourself.
What do you like and dislike about the system ... ? ...

You've got some really nice gear by most people's standards.  Depending on what specific characteristics you want to change, I'd be looking into speakers and cartridge change.  Nothing wrong with either of those in your system, but that's likely where the biggest sonic changes are going to come from.  If you find speakers you love, consider an amp change that's a great match for them (if your Mac is not).  

30K to spend, don't laugh, you will have a hard time beating this 2 arm combo:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/324409089345

what spinner, here's a TT71

https://www.ebay.com/itm/324554946167

Combined Total, incl tax and delivery: $800.

refinish the base, new veneer your choice, 

move your arm to the back

new long arm on the side

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what spinner? Mine's a TT81, your deep pockets, perhaps a TT101 or, 30k, feed your ego with an 801 (don't do it)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/254201602453?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=533...

TT71 specs here, pg 15, ridiculously good.

file:///C:/Users/ellio/Downloads/ve_jvc_qla7.pdf

Ask yourself why you feel you need to upgrade? What doesn't your current system do?

Focusing on Getting Superior Sound from your LPs:

Cartridges (plural), Take advantage of your removable headshell arm. Each it's own Headshell with open sides for access to wires, holding nuts, etc, finger lift, and importantly azimuth adjustment at the headshell

just as example for function:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/293416434592

wood one

https://www.ebay.com/itm/223518113378

Existing fine elliptical DL103D; new advanced stylus stereo; new elliptical Mono. Use these with your existing single arm TT, for a while, recalibrate VTF and Anti-Skate each change.

then:

Think Long: even though you have a great single arm TT, I encourage you to think now about a two arm TT. I got there by accident, then help here, I sure am glad I did. I went to 3 arms (see in my System Photos posted here), but 2 arms makes a world of difference.

The greatest thing for me is having a Mono Arm and a Stereo Arm balanced, ready to go: switch within seconds from Stereo to Mono in a listening session. My 3rd arm is MM so I don't needlessly wear out my primary MC with fixed stylus testing LP's for sale.

I wanted a longer arm, that's how I ended up with my setup.

Space needed for larger plinth.
Alignment skills (yours or a friend) needed to take advantage of it.
Tools

Method of selecting which arm. Your McIntosh Phono Preamp, great as it is, only has 1 input. You could add something with several inputs use it's MM Pass to choose what to send to your existing Phono Preamp

i.e the SUT I chose for 3 inputs, Fidelity Research FRT-4

https://www.ebay.com/itm/124558472024

entre et-100 has 3 inputs and MM Pass

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=entre+et-100&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&...

or 2 inputs, this Denon

https://www.ebay.com/itm/164939828820

No matter what, any Phono Preamp you (or anyone) might try, I highly encourage having the right to return it.





  

OP, I’m in Denver, too. My suggestion, being local, would be to try some speakers at Crescendo Audio, at Gold Sound, at Listen Up. Free to listen. Other dealers in the area include places up in Fort Collins and up toward Boulder. The Colorado Audio Society is a great resource and in person visits to member’s systems is starting up again. That’s a great way to hear things and gather information.

Aside from that, a nice DAC would do a lot for your system. I've sent you a message, privately, to say hello, too.

You want to spend 30k? Why not go to a dealer? You should have plenty in your neck of the woods!

Two great suggestions. Thank you for taking the time to share your advice. I like the TT, I will look into the the cartridge, sub,
dac and the speakers. So far I am leaning towards the Sonos. 
 

The first thing I would start with is the speakers, Monitor Audio is a great company but with $30,000 to shop with, you can do better. I would suggest something from B&W or Martin Logan, Sonus Farber just to name a few. Having a better source for digital and analog would help tremendously, dump the Sonos for a Aurender or Bluesound music server. Keep the TT and change the cartridge, the Denon DL103 is a great cartridge but its round stylus shape and heavy compliance make it rather pedestrian sounding. Lastly the Subwoofer would be a great place to upgrade, I mutch prefer the REL subs for they connect directly to the amps outputs and blend very well with the main speakers. Have fun! and remember things will only get more sensitive and having high quality source material will matter even more! whether its Digital files or Original great sounding vinyl.


Matt M

First, your TT, don’t dismiss it too easily, people like it’s arm, I found this about it:

"I have a review of the DD40, from a series of brief tests of a range of "Super Turntables". These were tested in the late 70’s - not sure of the exact date, but it was either 1977 or 78.

ADC Accutrac 4000 Rumble -38dB unweighted, wow&flutter 0.065% WRMS, platter resonance poor
Denon DP-1700 -39.5dB, 0.05%, platter resonance fair
Hitachi HT-840 -43.5dB, 0.046%, platter resonance poor
JVC QL-7 -41.5dB 0.045%, platter resonance fair
Linn Sondek LP12 -58dB, 0.03% platter resonance excellent
Luxman PD-131 -45.5dB, 0.042%, platter resonance very good
Marantz 6300 -43dB, 0.06%, platter resonance good
Micro Seiki DD-40 -42dB, 0.055%, platter resonance excellent
Mitsubishi DPEC-1 -40dB, 0.045%, platter resonance fair
Pioneer PL-550 -42dB, 0.048%, platter resonance poor
Technics SP-10 -46.5dB, 0.04%, platter resonance very good

The Micro Seiki DD-40 was about the level of a Rega Planar 3 for rumble, and slightly better for wow and flutter.

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The tonearm resonance for the DD-40 with a Denon DL-103 was almost perfect - about 9Hz, and only a 4dB peak, which is excellent.
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By the same magazine, the 1981 test of the Technics SL-1200MkII gave the following figures:
rumble -36dB, wow and flutter 0.04% weighted peak (no mention of platter resonance, but it probably isn’t as good as the Technics SP-10). Note that the wow and flutter test for the SL-1200 was tested to the world standard that came in for the 1980’s (peak weighted), and so can’t be compared to the earlier figures, but it was excellent, and probably better than many in that test. It wasn’t as good as any of the others for rumble, although as many of the others were higher priced, that’s not surprising. It was about the same as the Rega Planar 2 for rumble, and was very slightly cheaper."
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Meanwhile, re-read the Linn Sondek LP-12 results, outstanding.

Not sure how the specs compare to actual tests, and what measurement standards were used, my JVC TT81 Quartz Locked DD specs: Wow and flutter: 0.025% WRMS; Rumble: 63dB; Speed deviation: within 0.002%

What results do high end TT’s get these 40+ years later?