...kibitzing....'skool' ;)
AC Power
I have a relatively nice system, but have done nothing with my AC power, with the exception of upgraded PC’s and a cheap iFi plug in power conditioner. My question is multi fold… do I need to do something, and if so what? Dedicated line (15A or 20?)? Quality power conditioner? Both? Which one first? How do you tell?
My system is a combination of HT & 2 channel & I tend to use both simultaneously as I like to watch sports while listening to music.
My amp is (I think) a relatively low draw… Moon 330A, Rythmik sub, BHK pre, Aurender, Qutest w/Sbooster, R11’s. No high power amps are in my future & never listen above 75db. I do currently plug my amp directly into the wall. All my wall warts are gone. For my HT, add a 75” Sony TV, Marantz 7015 AVR & a Klipsch sub (although at zero volume the AVR & sub should not come into play).
I am considering buying the Furman IT-Reference 15i or 20i first as they are well reviewed & are priced very well on Amazon ($1,400 / $1,900). Before I pull the trigger, should I go dedicated power & at what amperage (my nephew, an EE & audiophile thinks I am drawing no more than 5 amps) as that will dictate the Furman model?
Interesting, my nephew thinks neither are worth the investment. His statement: “Do you have appliances on the circuit now? What kind of interference can they inject?...voltage drops would come from current draws...which trip breakers.
Not steady 60hz a good power supply handles. So it all comes back to was the power supply engineer dropped on his head as a child.”
”Personally I think it’s something audio people do when they have run out of gear to buy.”
Any thoughts or recommendations would be appreciated. Thanks!
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@erik_squires - Speaking of voltage regulation, any difference between this and this, other than $1,400? It seems 15A should mostly be enough for digital front end, if not all front end components. |
Thanks, @jea48 , that explanation and illustration made it so perfectly clear that even I could grasp it. |
It may be worth noting that tightly regulating your AC may be more important to more classic designs. Gear with linear power supplies with DC rails that are always some proportion of the incoming AC line (i.e. linear amplifiers) will suffer more than more modern power supplies like in your TV or PC. |
I agree that this seems impossible. Your HVAC, electric range, water heater, etc. are all going to be 240V, and therefore on both legs. Small window AC units, hair dryers, toasters, fridge and microwave will be exceptions, but ideally your 120 V AC lines are balanced so that about the same amount of current flows on each leg, so not sure why or how you’d do this. Ahem... which is why I buck the trend and emphasize voltage regulation over isolation. If you can do both, even better. |
@gdnrbob , thanks for the kind words. . |
Correct. Hot L1 leg to Hot L2 leg measures 240V, nominal. L1 to neutral as well as L2 to neutral measures 120V, nominal.
Correct. Both are fed from Line 1 (L1) bus, leg.
Example for illustration purposes only. Single phase 240/120Vac load center with 200A main breaker Note the turned out horizontal bus tie breaker connection tab that is part of the left and right vertical bus bars. Circuit breakers plug on to the bus bar tie tabs. The left vertical bus bar is Line 1 (L1) The right vertical bus bar is Line 2 (L2) Breakers Left side. ............. Breakers right side Top breaker L1 .............................L1 ................... L2 .............................L2 ................... L1 ............................ L1 ................... L2 ............................ L2 ................... L1 ............................ L1 ....................L2 ............................ L2 An so on to the bottom of the panel. No matter where a 2 pole breaker is plugged onto the breaker connection horizontal bus tie tabs the load side of the breaker is 240V nominal. Might be Top connection of breaker L1 and bottom connection L2. Or it could be top connection of breaker is L2 and bottom connection is L1. It just depends on where the 2 pole breakers are located in the panel. . |
@jea48 , I was also thinking that the left side is one leg and that the right side was the other leg. So I guess that this means that the 240A breaker for my drier is using both legs? And also: the way you explained that is that the top most breaker on the left side and the top most breaker on the right side are both on the same leg? (And from there on all the way down the legs alternate in pairs of breakers.) Am I understanding you correctly?
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+1, @gdnrbob . I always pay attention to what jea and EricSquires and Atmasphere type about electrical. |
@jea48 Thank you for your thoughts. You are correct, I had assumed that the right side was one leg, and left the other. What you said makes sense. However, I had read in other threads on power that one should avoid installing your dedicated audio circuit on a leg with major appliances. Given what you said, I guess that is not possible. |
@signaforce , I will be the first to recommend listening to the words of @jea48. His contributions to the Audiogon forurm on all things electrical is legendary. Bob |
@signaforce said:
Sounds like you might be thinking all the breakers on the left side of the electrical panel are on one leg, and all the breakers on the right side of the panel are on the other leg. That is not the case... The breakers on each side alternate from Line 1 leg and Line 2 leg down both sides of the panel. The wider breakers, two breakers with a single common handle, are for 240V loads. Single breakers are for 120V loads. If the guy/gal that wired your house was a Licensed residential electrician he/she would not have put both furnaces on the same Line, leg. He would put one on Line 1 and the other on Line 2. By code he must attempt to balance known 120V loads on both legs the best as possible. Same for 20A branch circuits in the kitchen. Especially appliances. As for the two ACs (I assume 2 air conditioner outside condensing units), they should be 240Vac. They are fed from both legs. As for this:
The electrician has options that he will explain to you. The cheapest method is to install what is called a tandem breaker. This type of breaker is two single pole breakers in a common molded breaker case. It connects to one Line, leg bus in the panel. (Remove a single one pole breaker and replace it with a tandem.) It would take two tandem breakers to create two spare breakers. (The electrician can move existing 120V circuits around so all your audio equipment branch circuits are, or, are not fed from tandem breakers. (Note, best practices for multiple branch circuits feeding audio equipment, that are connected by wire interconnects, all branch circuits should be fed from the same Line, leg, in the panel. All from Line 1 or all from Line 2. NOT from both...) Example of a tandem breaker: Square D QO 2-20 Amp Single-Pole Tandem Circuit Breaker (Note the electrical panel must be approved for use of a tandem breaker. Most are unless it is really old. Your electrician will know. Breaker type approved are listed some where on the panel enclosure.) Second option is to add a small sub panel next, near, to the existing main electrical panel. Again the electrician will determine the best installation/wiring method for the sub panel location. If the main panel is exposed in a mechanical room in a basement cheapest sub panel install is next to the main electrical panel. Cheapest method is to install tandem breakers in the existing electrical panel.
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It has also been my experience that systems sound different day to day. I don't know if it is our brain, ears, or AC power, but I notice that as well. I tried the Shunyata Gemini in my system when a friend lent me his to try, and we both noticed an improvement. I have not tried any of the Furman products. The most you can do is to try them and listen for yourself. Every system is different and you won't know until you try. Please keep us posted on your findings. |
BTW, on my space issue, my Bonus Room where my system is installed is large. However, there are 8 large windows, a large L shaped couch, a pool table & several components I didn’t list CD, DVR, DVD, Harmony hub, modem, headphones, phono stage, center channel speaker, TT, & 7.2 speakers. Normally I would be playing golf, but my club is closed on Monday’s. You gave me something interesting to do today. Thanks! |
@12many Thanks, I was also, but he has apologized. You are correct, sometimes I float back and forth between being focused on the game & the music. But also many times I am just listening to music without any TV. Most of the time, my system sounds excellent. Sometimes it sounds slightly harsh. But hard to tell if that is the recording, my room (8 windows) or my hearing aids. As all hearing aid audiophiles know, every thing you buy from a component standpoint is funneling through these tiny digital devices. 😒 So what I want is to continue to improve my sound through judicious well informed investments. @052rc Thank you, very true. I will look at the cable company. |
"Your nephew is clueless about electricity but don’t feel bad, most people are." "Not sure of your credentials, but provably not a good idea to start your comments calling him clueless IMHO. " I appreciate that you probably like your nephew and don't like him being called "clueless", but when it comes to the effects of power imperfections on sound quality, I don't think they teach that at any engineering school. The fact that you are here asking the questions about power conditioners and dedicated circuits, shows that you know that they matter and he might not be the best source on whether either option is worth it. |
Given that you watch sports and listen to music, it seems like you enjoy the music but may not be actively and intently focused on listening to it. Even if you were, you may not notice an improvement with the Furman. I notice that if I am watching something on the TV, I focus less on the minute details of the music or audio. What is it you are unhappy with in your current system, or what do you want to improve? If you try the Furman, keep an open mind about returning it if you don’t notice a difference. BTW, I am shocked people are insulting your relative. That says a lot. |
@carlsbad2 Thanks. OK, you certainly have credibility. I figured you were an engineer by your directness. 😀 I am not a form over function guy, (maybe function & form) but when you truly don’t have the space… I would have a bigger amp IF there were space. I did come in with a set of ideas, but I am never absolute & am changing my plans real time based upon the outstanding input from this thread. So, if you have any other recommendations… please. |
The last thing you want to do is get an EE involved. You don't need to be an engineer to listen to music. That being said, there's only one way to handle the situation responsibility. When it comes to power products, you have no idea what will happen when you put something in the system. If you hear a difference, it may not be for the better. All of the recommendations you get here are well meaning and honest, but you just can't rely on someone else's opinion. Give the exact same component to 5 different people and you will get 5 different opinions. If you live in the US, you should call The Cable Company. They're the biggest high end cable and assessor retailer there is. They keep demo units of everything they sell. So, if you want to buy a new power conditioner, for example, call them and go over your system. They'll make 4 or 5 recommendations and send them to you all at once. Listen to them for a couple of weeks and only make a purchase if you find something that's worth paying for. One thing I can tell you for certain is you have a fairly complicated system. You're mixing HT and 2 channel, and from a power standpoint, you're going to have some surprises. For example, you may think a new conditioner is going to make a big difference only to find out a power cord for your DVD player does the most good. That's why you have to try everything first.
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@signaforce Sorry about that. I am an Engineering Manager in the electric power industry with 40+ years experience. I have degrees in engineering and physics from well respected universities including the University of Chicago (physics, 1980). Engineers implement physics, physicists actually understand it. So unfortunately I have to stand by my comments. I work with engineers daily who do not understand electricity to the level you need to address the somewhat subtle challenges we face in audio. Tell your nephew to hook up his oscilloscope to the power coming into the house and see if his comments remain the same. Your rejection of a regenerator for size concerns tells me you're a form-over-function guy. Looks are more important than how it sounds. I'm all about sound and I'll find a way to implement the better sounding option, so we speak different languages. Finally, it seems clear you had made up your mind before you started this thread. I had a few more technical suggestions but I'll not waste your time. I wish you the best of luck. Jerry |
@jea48 I personally replaced all the receptacles in my house with good quality (albeit not audio quality) Leviton receptacles and attached all wires with the screw connections. The original install did use the stab, and I discovered during my installation, some had busted… Not good! |
OP: Recently had a contractor plug a circular saw onto the same circuit and I watched the voltage after the AR, and it stayed rock solid. I could see the AR switching transformer taps every time the saw turned on and off, but the gear never felt it. That's how stable the voltage is. I've kept the combination ever since. Best, Erik |
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"which trip breakers." Motor loads can. Non motors loads no. .
I strongly disagree... I assume you are feeding your 2 channel audio equipment and H/T equipment from a single 15 amp convenience outlet branch circuit. FWIW per 2020 NEC (National Electrical Code), there is no limit on the number of 15 amp duplex receptacles that can be installed on a 15 amp convenience outlet branch circuit in a residential dwelling unit. Also worth noting ceiling light fixtures can also be connected to the same branch circuit wiring. Got LED lamps in them fixtures? Harmonic distortion noise... What wiring method did the residential electrician use to make up the in and out branch circuit joints/connections in the wall outlet boxes? Worst wiring method is using stab in the back residential grade 79 cent duplex receptacle outlets. That’s four connections, (2 hot conductors & 2 neutral conductors) for each outlet times how many wall outlets from the electrical panel to the wall outlet your equipment is plugged into. Problem with stab in the back outlets? Piss poor connections. Poor connections? AC high frequency harmonic distortion noise caused from micro arcing in all the stab in the back connections. I didn’t even mention the type of loads plugged into wall outlets on the same branch circuit. I looked at your equipment profile. I would recommend at least two 20 amp dedicated branch circuits. Maybe three... The big Sony TV with its Switch Mode Power supply isn’t helping the sound from the PS Audio BHK Signature Preamp and the Simaudio Moon 330A Amp. Those two analog and any other analog equipment should have it’s own 20 amp dedicated branch circuit. (Note 20 amp branch circuit.) Labor cost is the same whether 15A or 20A. Even the circuit breakers are the same price. Only difference is the price of the wire gauge used. Labor is the biggest cost. Labor for one circuits does not double for two, or triple for three... It doesn’t work that way. Material costs does though. . |
@ghdprentice Thanks! Good recommendation. |
@erik_squires Thanks! That was the unit I thought you were recommending. It would save space & money while providing good voltage regulation, while cleaning power. It does not have additional amp RMS reserves like the reference model. Not sure which is better? |
Each step will provide a notable improvement in sound quality. 15amp direct lines... one for amp (no power conditioner) and one for the rest of your components. And a good quality power conditioner. The better quality the better. I would look at Shunyata and IsoTech. Since it is likely you will replace your power conditioner nearly as often as components, it is worth getting a good one. My 75lbs conditioner won awards twenty five years ago when I bought it and has been performing incredibly well since then. |
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OP: So sorry about the bad link, this one should be correct. 5W is sipping off the power. Furman makes a lot of models geared towards either home or professional users. If you like that unit, stick to it. :) I was just describing why my own gear is more focused on voltage regulation than isolation. Isolation focuses on noise. Regulation focuses on keeping the line voltage as close to ideal 120V as possible, and tries to compensate for over and under voltages as they occur. The unit you are suggesting has the most important features. SMP, LiFT and EVS. That will keep your gear noise free and healthy for a long time. |
@erik_squires Thanks for your thoughts. My amp is just 5W class A before it changes to A/B. |
Hi OP: You are getting good advice. My observations, living in apartments and now a detached home is that most significant voltage fluctuations come from seasonal variations as well as major appliances (HVAC, dryer, etc.). It is _very_ rare to see a home user’s equipment draw enough to cause significant sag, but it does happen with mega heavy Class A amps. I base this on having a Furman with voltage output and using plug in voltage monitors. The dedicated circuit may help reduce noise from other devices on the same circuit, such as for instance PCs, LED light strips, etc. Based on this my advice is:
Personally I go with regulation over isolation, so this is a unit I really like. |
@carlsbad2 Thanks for your thoughts. A regenerator is not in my future if for no other reason than space. |
Your nephew is clueless about electricity but don’t feel bad, most people are. The disturbances in your 60 cycle sine wave come from outside the home, mostly from industrial loads. We have non-cyclic loads and supplies now that morph the sine wave. A dedicated line will help keep in-house interference off and more importantly, ensure adequate current is delivered to your amp. but will do nothing about the quality of the power. The Furman you are looking at does nothing to fix the degraded sine wave. Only a regenerator can do that. PS Audio is the rolls Royce there. I don’t think you have tube gear but most "conditioners" can’t regulate voltage either. a tube amp thrives with the voltage that it was designed to. Once again, a regenerator will allow you to set the voltage. My voltage is 120.0 +/- .1 V. Now one last thing. Not all amps and components need clean power. It gets rectified eventually for most purposes and some amps and components work fine with dirty power. So results will vary. But tube amps will always work better with regulated voltage. Jerry |
