I have a relatively nice system, but have done nothing with my AC power, with the exception of upgraded PC’s and a cheap iFi plug in power conditioner. My question is multi fold… do I need to do something, and if so what? Dedicated line (15A or 20?)? Quality power conditioner? Both? Which one first? How do you tell?
My system is a combination of HT & 2 channel & I tend to use both simultaneously as I like to watch sports while listening to music.
My amp is (I think) a relatively low draw… Moon 330A, Rythmik sub, BHK pre, Aurender, Qutest w/Sbooster, R11’s. No high power amps are in my future & never listen above 75db. I do currently plug my amp directly into the wall. All my wall warts are gone. For my HT, add a 75” Sony TV, Marantz 7015 AVR & a Klipsch sub (although at zero volume the AVR & sub should not come into play).
I am considering buying the Furman IT-Reference 15i or 20i first as they are well reviewed & are priced very well on Amazon ($1,400 / $1,900). Before I pull the trigger, should I go dedicated power & at what amperage (my nephew, an EE & audiophile thinks I am drawing no more than 5 amps) as that will dictate the Furman model?
Interesting, my nephew thinks neither are worth the investment. His statement: “Do you have appliances on the circuit now? What kind of interference can they inject?...voltage drops would come from current draws...which trip breakers.
Not steady 60hz a good power supply handles. So it all comes back to was the power supply engineer dropped on his head as a child.”
”Personally I think it’s something audio people do when they have run out of gear to buy.”
Any thoughts or recommendations would be appreciated. Thanks!
Interesting, my nephew thinks neither are worth the investment. His statement: “Do you have appliances on the circuit now? What kind of interference can they inject?...voltage drops would come from current draws...which trip breakers.
Not steady 60hz a good power supply handles. So it all comes back to was the power supply engineer dropped on his head as a child.”
”Personally I think it’s something audio people do when they have run out of gear to buy.”
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voltage drops would come from current draws...which trip breakers.
"which trip breakers." Motor loads can. Non motors loads no.
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”Personally I think it’s something audio people do when they have run out of gear to buy.”
I strongly disagree...
I assume you are feeding your 2 channel audio equipment and H/T equipment from a single 15 amp convenience outlet branch circuit. FWIW per 2020 NEC (National Electrical Code), there is no limit on the number of 15 amp duplex receptacles that can be installed on a 15 amp convenience outlet branch circuit in a residential dwelling unit. Also worth noting ceiling light fixtures can also be connected to the same branch circuit wiring. Got LED lamps in them fixtures? Harmonic distortion noise...
What wiring method did the residential electrician use to make up the in and out branch circuit joints/connections in the wall outlet boxes? Worst wiring method is using stab in the back residential grade 79 cent duplex receptacle outlets. That’s four connections, (2 hot conductors & 2 neutral conductors) for each outlet times how many wall outlets from the electrical panel to the wall outlet your equipment is plugged into.
Problem with stab in the back outlets? Piss poor connections. Poor connections? AC high frequency harmonic distortion noise caused from micro arcing in all the stab in the back connections. I didn’t even mention the type of loads plugged into wall outlets on the same branch circuit.
I looked at your equipment profile. I would recommend at least two 20 amp dedicated branch circuits. Maybe three... The big Sony TV with its Switch Mode Power supply isn’t helping the sound from the PS Audio BHK Signature Preamp and the Simaudio Moon 330A Amp. Those two analog and any other analog equipment should have it’s own 20 amp dedicated branch circuit. (Note 20 amp branch circuit.) Labor cost is the same whether 15A or 20A. Even the circuit breakers are the same price. Only difference is the price of the wire gauge used. Labor is the biggest cost. Labor for one circuits does not double for two, or triple for three... It doesn’t work that way. Material costs does though.
Of a potentially more problematic nature, the Bonus Room leg on the fuse box includes 2 furnaces, 2 AC’s, 2 refrigerators. Looks like I need dedicated lines wired to the other leg.
Sounds like you might be thinking all the breakers on the left side of the electrical panel are on one leg, and all the breakers on the right side of the panel are on the other leg. That is not the case... The breakers on each side alternate from Line 1 leg and Line 2 leg down both sides of the panel. The wider breakers, two breakers with a single common handle, are for 240V loads. Single breakers are for 120V loads.
If the guy/gal that wired your house was a Licensed residential electrician he/she would not have put both furnaces on the same Line, leg. He would put one on Line 1 and the other on Line 2. By code he must attempt to balance known 120V loads on both legs the best as possible. Same for 20A branch circuits in the kitchen. Especially appliances.
As for the two ACs (I assume 2 air conditioner outside condensing units), they should be 240Vac. They are fed from both legs.
As for this:
The only issue is my fuse box is becoming overloaded & 2 or 3 20A circuits may require a complete new box.
The electrician has options that he will explain to you.
The cheapest method is to install what is called a tandem breaker. This type of breaker is two single pole breakers in a common molded breaker case. It connects to one Line, leg bus in the panel. (Remove a single one pole breaker and replace it with a tandem.) It would take two tandem breakers to create two spare breakers. (The electrician can move existing 120V circuits around so all your audio equipment branch circuits are, or, are not fed from tandem breakers.
(Note, best practices for multiple branch circuits feeding audio equipment, that are connected by wire interconnects, all branch circuits should be fed from the same Line, leg, in the panel. All from Line 1 or all from Line 2. NOT from both...)
(Note the electrical panel must be approved for use of a tandem breaker. Most are unless it is really old. Your electrician will know. Breaker type approved are listed some where on the panel enclosure.)
Second option is to add a small sub panel next, near, to the existing main electrical panel. Again the electrician will determine the best installation/wiring method for the sub panel location. If the main panel is exposed in a mechanical room in a basement cheapest sub panel install is next to the main electrical panel.
Cheapest method is to install tandem breakers in the existing electrical panel.
So I guess that this means that the 240A breaker for my drier is using both legs?
Correct.
Hot L1 leg to Hot L2 leg measures 240V, nominal.
L1 to neutral as well as L2 to neutral measures 120V, nominal.
And also: the way you explained that is that the top most breaker on the left side and the top most breaker on the right side are both on the same leg?
Correct. Both are fed from Line 1 (L1) bus, leg.
(And from there on all the way down the legs alternate in pairs of breakers.)
There is a very good chance that digital front end equipment already has voltage regulators on the DC power side of the equipment. Good chance that holds true on at least solid state preamps. Maybe even for tube preamps.
As for digital equipment the question is, does the equipment have filtering on the AC mains side that will filter out, prevent, digital hash from traveling back out on the power cord and re-interring on the power cords of an analog preamp and power amp that are plugged into a common power strip.? Even if the amp is plugged directly into the same wall outlet, same branch circuit, as the power strip.
There was a well respected EE, his field was in electronics, that passed many years ago. He frequently posted on the AA forum. I remember he used to say the main reason, (paraphrasing what he said), for multiple dedicated branch circuits is to decouple the power supplies of digital equipment from analog equipment.
That’s why I installed two dedicated 20A branch circuits. One for digital equipment, the other for analog.
Speaking of voltage regulation, any difference between this and this, other than $1,400? It seems 15A should mostly be enough for digital front end, if not all front end components.
Probably fine. Loads are constant therein not fluctuating like with a power amp playing high dynamic music.
Worth noting. When dealing with the available power from a wall outlet the amount of power available is not necessarily limited to the handle rating of the branch circuit breaker.
Using a 15A circuit, #14 gauge wire, for example... Most people seem to think the breaker will trip when it senses 15 amps of current passing through it. That is a false assumption. UL / NEMA states the breaker must trip at a sustained current of 20.25A, (135% at less than one hour). (15A x 135% = 20.25 amps.) At 30 amperes (200 percent of wire rating) in less than 120 seconds. (15A x 200% = 30 amps).
With quick fluctuating loads, at say 40 amps, the breaker may never trip at all if the load is only for a few hours or so.
So the branch circuit breaker will continue to pass the connected load current well above 15 amps, 1800W for a short sustained duration or quick short fluctuations of current draw. Does VD, Voltage Drop, increase if the branch circuit wiring is #14 gauge and the connected load is over 15 amp? Yes, but how much VD depends on the length of the #14 gauge wire X 2. If the branch circuit wire is #12 gauge the VD is less. #10 gauge even less.
I guess the point I am trying to make is, how well will a 15 amp, 1800W, rated power conditioner available power hold up to the availability power at the wall outlet branch circuit wiring fed from the electrical panel. (Electrical panel... A whole lot of available power.) The wall outlet will delivery well beyond 1800 watts for short intervals of current draw in time. What is the power head room, Service Factor, for short durations of overloading the power conditioner? Maybe 10%? 20%? Maybe 30%? I doubt it.
One question I do have abut dedicated circuits, is it worth the extra money to get magnetic breakers over the cheap other ones?
I assume you mean the circuit breakers in an electrical panel. The breakers in the electrical panel are Thermal Magnetic Breakers.
Per NEC, (National Electrical Code), only breakers Listed by the panel manufacturer can be used in the electrical panel. All branch circuit breakers used in electrical panels are Thermal Magnetic type breakers. You wouldn’t want just a magnetic type breaker.
The thermal trip unit is for normal overloading of a circuit. It has a bi-metal strip that the circuit current flows through. When too much current passes through it the breaker trips open. (breaker trip curve).
The magnetic unit in the breaker is for short circuit faults.The magnet trip part of the breaker is also what trips the breaker when there is high inrush current. (Good example is an old across the AC Line big power Krell power Amp).
Here is a video of how it works. Note the panel shown is a Square D QO load center with a main breaker. The breaker used in the demonstration is an Eaton 15 amp breaker.
The video is of a regular type thermal magnetic breaker. Breakers found in new homes are still thermal magnetic breakers but also are AFCI, Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter, breakers. These are not cheap, They are expensive.
Then there are GFCI, Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter, breakers. AFCI / GFCI Dual Function circuit breakers. They are really expensive! All these breakers also have a thermal magnetic trip mechanism built into them too.
Technically you will need a 20A branch circuit installed. The captive cord, I believe, was installed on the unit so it could get it safety test Listed. Listed like UL Listed or any other NRTL Listing.
FYI, just guessing, (You know) you will never use a total of up to 15 amps of a combined continuous connected load. Continuous is defined 3 hours or more, NEC.
Generally speaking, @jea48 is right about not mixing breakers.
Technically speaking, if you are mixing breaker brands the breaker has to be "listed" as being tested with the other maker’s panel. I believe this has to do with the maximum interrupt current of the individual vs. main breakers. In any event...
First, per NEC, all circuit breakers shall be Listed.
Quote:
NEC 110.3(B)
Installation and Use. Equipment that is listed, labeled, or both shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.
End of quote.
The section is talking about the manufacturer of the electrical panel. Not because a different manufacturer breaker is Listed. The different manufacturer’s breaker is not approved for use in the panel by the manufacturer of the panel.
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Even if you do get a "listed" breaker, when you go to sell the inspector probably won’t bother to check if it’s listed or not and will flag it as something to be corrected. Just not worth the hassle or potential $10 in savings.
True, are any of them home inspectors retired licensed electrical inspectors or retired licensed electricians? The extent of their electrical knowledge is to use a plug-in circuit tester to check for an Open Ground at wall outlets. And GFCI outlets required in the house per Code.
As for installing a different manufacturer’s circuit breaker in another’s manufacturers electrical panel that has been in the NEC for years. I know first hand, on a few instances the electrical inspector seen the violation. Not I ,well maybe I did, but usually the breaker was installed by a different electrical contractor/electrician previously.
Problem is doing electrical work in old buildings in a city where a remodel is taking place. The General Contractor pulls a permit... All subs pull permits. The general contractor can’t call for an inspection until the subs call for an inspection, (if a sub’s work needs inspection before the general contractor’s inspection.)
Problem for the Electrical contractor/Electrician? Usually at the final electrical inspection. The electrical inspector will say something like "did you add any new circuits?" LOL, he knows you did... "Show me the panel." Usually the circuit breaker manufacturer’s name is on the face of the breaker. Problem? The electrical panel manufacturer went out of business years ago. There are no NOS stock breakers. There definitely are not any Tandem breakers. They didn’t exist back then.
I think I would plug it into the analog. My reasoning is based on the linear power supply in the AVR. You can always try it both ways. Listen for differences.
Look at the photo of the power transformer inside of the AVR. Power transformer is on the front left hand side.
I believe that is a Bobbin type power transformer. It doesn’t look an like EI transformer to me.
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Side note.
When you receive the Furman P 2400 and plug everything into it make sure the plugged in equipment with power transformers, like power amplifiers, are powered off. Because of the VA rating size of the Toroidal isolation power transformer in the P 2400 the initial turn-on inrush current will be fairly high, then quickly fall off. You don’t want to add any loads on the P 2400 transformer to add any additional inrush current onto the 15 amp circuit breaker in the electrical panel, that may cause it trip open. (Unless the P 2400 has a soft start circuit built into it to limit power-on inrush current.) ???
The bigger the VA rating of a power transformer the better, when used to feed power amplifiers.
True RMS Voltage Regulation Technology
True RMS Voltage Regulation is designed around an ultra-low noise eight-tap toroidal autoformer. A microprocessor within the P-2400 AR monitors the incoming RMS voltage with each cycle, measuring the phase angle in time with the advancing cycle. Most commercial voltage regulators using multiple-tapped transformers switch taps at uncontrolled times. This creates voltage spikes and clicks that can leak into audio. When a voltage fluctuation requires correction by the P-2400 AR, True RMS Voltage Regulation advances a new tap with less stress and in turn avoids distortion to the AC waveform.
WOW!
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An autotransformer does not provide isolation from the AC mains to the output side of the transformer. That is not the purpose, intention, of the design of the use of the eight tap toroidal "autoformer" in the P-2400.
I consider @erik_squiresthe Audiogon resident expert on Furman power conditioners. He has more knowledge than I on Furman power condioners technologically. @erik_squiresis better qualified than I to answer your question regarding the design and circuitry of voltage regulation of the P-2400.
As for me the way the P-2400 voltage regulation, design, circuitry, is implemented sounds pretty sophisticated to me. Switching from a winding tap to another winding tap without causing a distortion in the sine wave or any type, no mater how fast, the switching method used is not an easy thing to do. Furmam seems to have it figured out without the user hearing anything from his audio system. If not you would be reading about it on the Net.
Point is, no, grounding to a copper water pipe is no longer considered best practice. You want to run a copper wire and bond it to your house ground.
The outside grounding block, which your cable installers put in already has this.
Don't count on it!
Verify 100% it is connected to the System Ground, Grounding Electrode System, of the electrical service equipment.
Where does a CATV cable installer ground the grounding block if the cable point of attachment is on the other side of the House? I've seen where the installer stuck a stake in the earth and attached the ground block ground wire to the stake.
10 ft. captive 3/12 AWG, black cord with NEMA 20 plug. Mine is still gathered, as I only needed 3 feet, but would think 10’ is accurate.
10 ft. captive 12/3 AWG,
@signaforcedefine gathered. I would not coil the the remaining 7ft in a neat tight small diameter coil. Imo, a small coil would act as an inductor.
FYI do not cut off the cord to make it shorter. That more than likely would void the Furman 2400 warranty.
Just a guess, I could be wrong, the length of 10ft cord may be for the proper operation of the type 3 point of use SPD, (Surge protection Device) inside the unit. With a type 3 SPD the minimum length of the branch circuit wiring from the electrical panel to the SPD matters. The minimum length is 30ft.
Type 3– Point of utilization SPDs, installed at a minimum conductor length of 10 meters (30 feet) from the electrical service panel to the point of utilization, for example cord connected, direct plug-in, receptacle type SPDs installed at the utilization equipment being protected. The distance (10 meters) is exclusive of the conductors provided with or used to attach SPDs.
Of course, always follow the rules, but the 30’ requirement AFAIK is to avoid excess current that is too high for the AIR (current interrupt rating) of panel breakers.
Not the breaker... The minimum AIR interrupting rating for a residential dwelling circuit breaker is 10KA. You will see it on the front of the breaker.
The 30ft minimum distance requirement has to do with the fault current rating of the Type 3 SPD . Any idea what the Furman is rated at?
My understanding, the 30ft minimum length of the branch circuit wiring impedance will limit the current through the Type 3 SPD.
If a Type 3 SPD was plugged into an outlet 5ft from the electrical panel I assume in a lightning transient surge event, it could/would be fried.
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The distance (10 meters) is exclusive of the conductors provided with or used to attach SPDs.
That’s from UL, and NEC. NEC saying the length of the branch circuit wiring from the panel to the wall outlet shall be a minimum of 30ft... 2020 NEC 242.16. Type 3 SPDs. When I think about it, it makes sense the cord would be exclusive of the SPD as far as the NEC is concerned. UL could care less how long the cord is. I assume when UL did their testing they found 30ft branch circuit wiring was the safe minimum length.
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IOW, the length of the SPD’s cord is irrelevant to the 30’ requirement.
I agree... I just thought that’s why Furman made the 10ft cord captive to add more impedance in the minimum 30ft branch circuit wiring length. An added impedance current limiting fudge factor. (Just curious can the 2400 unit be ordered with a shorter cord. Say 5ft or 6ft?)
I would check with the manufacturer first, before cutting the cord to make it shorter, to see if doing so voids the warranty.
It may help you to understand that the MOV’s in an SPD’s for the most part deliberately CAUSE shorts (series mode an exception) which is why they must be a certain distance from the panel. This ensures the AIC of the breakers isn’t exceeded when they do short.
AIC corrected..
I know how MOVs work.
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which is why they must be a certain distance from the panel. This ensures the AIC of the breakers isn’t exceeded when they do short.
BS. I told you the reason in my previous post.
Think about... A Bolted Line to Line, or Line to EGC fault 1ft from a circuit breaker will trip open the breaker on short circuit protection. Sure in the heck don’t need 30ft. (Where’s your protection of the breaker) Think about it... Bolted... A heck of a lot more flow of amps than any MOV could possibly return to the source.
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The Furman with SMP won’t cause a short under most surge conditions so no AIC needed. Zerosurge/Brickwall do the same.
AIC corrected.
I never said a Type 3 SPD had a AIC, Ampere Interrupting Capacity rating.
jea48 said:
The 30ft minimum distance requirement has to do with the fault current rating of the Type 3 SPD . Any idea what the Furman is rated at?
fault current rating, is not the same as, AIC, Ampere Interrupting Capacity rating.
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but the internet is littered with images of where these failed or caused a fire as they melted the plastic enclosures.
I seen the video. A $10.00 Type 3 SPD plug strip was used for the demonstration.
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2020 NEC 242.16 Type 3 SPDs
Type 3 SPDs shall be permitted to be installed on the load side of branch circuit overcurrent protection up to the equipment served. If included in the manufacturer’s instructions, the Type 3 SPD connection shall be a minimum 10 m (30 ft) of conductor distance from the service or separatelyderived system disconnect.
No mention of MOVs;
No Exception, for Furman, Zerosurge, or Brickwall.
The 30-foot (10-meter) minimum conductor distance requirement for Type 3 Surge Protective Devices (SPDs) from the service or separately derived system disconnect is a safety measure to ensure that the SPD is located beyond the area potentially affected by a surge, which is typically considered to be within 30 feet of the main panel.
Here’s a more detailed explanation:
Purpose of the 30-foot Distance:
The 30-foot distance requirement is based on the idea that a surge, such as a lightning strike, will have the most significant impact on equipment within that immediate vicinity of the main electrical panel.
Type 3 SPD Location:
Type 3 SPDs are designed to protect equipment at the point of utilization, meaning they are installed on the load side of branch-circuit overcurrent protection, but only if the connection is a minimum of 30 feet away from the service or separately derived system disconnect.
Protection Beyond the Main Panel:By placing the Type 3 SPD beyond the 30-foot zone, it’s less likely to be directly affected by the surge, allowing it to function more effectively.
It may help you to understand that the MOV’s in an SPD’s for the most part deliberately CAUSE shorts (series mode an exception) which is why they must be a certain distance from the panel. This ensures the AIR of the breakers isn’t exceeded when they do short.
"It may help you to understand"
I took that as an insult.
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In addition to the conversation not really going anywhere
The conversation is settled. You were wrong.
You proved you were wrong when you introduced series mode SPDs into the conversation.
@jea48- Of course, always follow the rules, but the 30’ requirement AFAIK is to avoid excess current that is too high for the AIR (current interrupt rating) of panel breakers.
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