If you know that a user is a dealer and they fail to disclose and attacks other users because they make a point against their interest, do you expose the user?
I know of a gentleman here that continuously posts and goes after people and does not disclose who he is.
It’s the only way you can be one. If you like the product or not, you shill the product for compensation. That is the actual definition of a SHILL. There is not 50 definitions. Just one! The act of being deceitful for payment. Fraud! A Shill
Even a Barker is not a shill, a salesperson, a person that works for "Space Aliens invade White house" or "Barack Obama is Joe Biden’s LOVE CHILD" they are SHILLS. I don’t know maybe they do believe that stuff. :-)
Like I said, show me one person that was compensated and doesn’t like the product. Does that make it easier to understand..
JUST ONE will do.. I’ve never heard of one on AG other than the newbies that everything new is "the best thing sense sliced bread". Then tell everyone of their new discovery. THEN they move a speaker and the world changes again. I’m a mechanic, I expect change when I did something, not thinking about doing something.. :-)
I love Mcintosh, the only thing they EVER gave me was the BILL. I promote Mac, plain and simple. They aught to pay me come to think of it.. I’ll work on that.
The only reason not to use Mcintosh is because you don’t have the funds, or you like being ashamed. One I understand, the other I tolerate.. :-)
BTW the C2500 is out of the shop R&B was fast, reasonable, and courteous.
Man it sound nice with Blackburns or Telefunkens.. Camron...
Boasting about gear branded name is most of the time a reflecting ignorance about the three other factors huge contribution to the S.Q. most of the time way more than a single piece of gear so good it is: mechanical and electrical and especially acoustical control...
People sell their choices of favorite gear often by lack of confidence in their knowledge...
Why should anyone assume a shill does not receive compensation? I’ve observed many cases where a shill was explicitly asked that and they either dance around the question or ignore it. Please! This site does not exist due to chit chat.
My audio system value is 500 bucks and it is me who smile about all rich audiophile bragging about their costly gear without even knowing how to embed them mechanically, electrically and acoustically...
Then relax no one dared to mock my system here for the last 7 years..
If you think that it is only money who can give audiophile experience and not science and brain you are dead wrong...
Come and welcome here...Nobody will mock your system save idiots...
My deeperst respect to you....
I’ve expressed my views about people who have degraded those of use who do not have a lot of money to invest on the systems that many of you have but still enjoy what we have to the best of our ability. However, every time i try to defend those of us with lower incomes, but still enjoy what we have, are either down graded or the post is removed. Please forgive us for not having the income to invest on systems that many of you have. However, we are just looking to you guys for advice for what we can do with our limited incomes.
I've expressed my views about people who have degraded those of use who do not have a lot of money to invest on the systems that many of you have but still enjoy what we have to the best of our ability. However, every time i try to defend those of us with lower incomes, but still enjoy what we have, are either down graded or the post is removed. Please forgive us for not having the income to invest on systems that many of you have. However, we are just looking to you guys for advice for what we can do with our limited incomes.
@mapman….thats exactly right. Claiming the product is the end all be all for everyone regardless of the situation. Turns out the Schiller in question has just listed his holy grail and moved on to greener pastures. Can’t say I didn’t see that coming.
@oldhvymecI just want to make sure I did not give the wrong impression. I respect the heck out of your audio knowledge, which I certainly do not have, and love your posts.
You and I now know that maybe as the only 2 listeners here we can overcome many room obstacles with simple devices self-constructed and placed by audible observation. The enhancement of laminar flow is to me a much greater benefit to the listener than the typical foam in the box which is more of a destructive force to the listening experience. Tom
A classic example is constantly advocating for an integrated on the floor. Probably never owned monoblocks with 20” speaker wires and XLR or the 3 individual power supplies… ignorance … I set up two integrated this month, they certainly have a place… but not in every case…
A shill influencer gets a dopamine hit when you buy whatever they are pitching, often in ignorance of competitive products offered by others..add in the claims of “ best “ and ego and it’s a recipe for ignore. :-) @mapman@jetterboth have a read on the fool.
I had a hidden agenda but i sell nothing save creativity :
Audiophile experience with the three embeddings controls of the working electrical mechanical and acoustical dimensions for the cost of peanuts...
Audio is plagued by mass market conditioning to UPGRADE gear and ignorance of the three embeddings controlled or uncontrolled working dimensions of ANY audio system and the way to optimize ANY system...
Ignorance of acoustic and promotion of costly "tweaks" with no systematic simple method to optimize audio system is a catastrophy that create a tail chase and great unsatifaction and frustration...
My posts are for the "poor" audiophile...People with money will never use a straw to transform acoustically their room unless the straw cost was 1,000 bucks, anyway they will not even believe it is possible ... 😁😊
I have created a solution for "rich" audiophile:
If someone want to buy one straw i pay them less than one cent at Wallmart but i will send you one for only 100 bucks, you will save 900 buck on their regular price... I must pay my research cost in acoustic after all....
😁😊
Seriously i dont care about the gear product branded names...Electronical engineering is mature industry able to give us plenty of good product at all price...
I care about electrical,mechanical and especially acoustical method to embed ANY system and optimize it so much that upgrading will appear almost meaningless with ANY gear and at any PRICE...
«The way we walk matter more than the road we take sometimes»-Anonymus Smith
«I use the walls and the room pressure zones guided by my ears drums to improve my speakers drivers workings»-Anonymus Acoustician
«Are you saying that the speakers branded name choice or cost matter less than the zone pressures distributions of the room?» Anonymus Audiophile
«Yes, it is a not so much hidden agenda now » -Anonymus acoustician
One crosses over into “shill” territory for me when a product is consistently and unconditionally pitched to all on the sole totally subjective merit of “better sound”.
That clearly indicates selling the product no matter what is all that matters.
That my friend is “shilling”. Persistently pitching to anyone no matter what because it is assumed it will always “sound better”. Also if it turns out it doesn’t, most likely the shill will never place the blame on the product sold under false pretenses. Bad for sales!
more seriously, i do personally suspect that the problem of shilling and this type of thing is a little overstated in general - in so many forums i see 'subjectivists' and measurements freaks alike losing their composure, more or less constantly, because they see "hidden agendas" everywhere they look. in my view the overwhelming majority of people who frequent these types of forums are basically normal, reasonable people who share a fun hobby. that's not to say you don't have bad actors from time to time, but seems like they're relatively few and far between. just my .02
No experience personally but I suspect like most things you just have to be good at it and want to do it. I was a salesman early on....Lafayette Radio, TEch Hifi, Radio Shack. We were trained when someone walked in the store, your job was to find out what their problem was that brought them in and solve it for them. Worked well!! No shilling needed. Tweaks like wires were always needed and very high profit so we were trained to always make sure those were sold if people needed them. That was simple zip cord, etc. in those days. THings have gotten a bit out of hand there over time as is often the case when there are big profits to be made.
@styleman @nonoise Since you asked for others' opinions: I've used Nobsound, IsoAcoustics, and Townshend all three. Each one was clearly better than the last in my system and to my ears. Whether the increased cost is worth it to you I can't say. The Townshend podiums were a reach $$ for me, but they made a striking improvement in my speakers (Cain&Cain Abbys).
my question is, how can i become a paid shill? i would love to get free/heavily discounted equipment just for posting "this is it. the one. you guys gotta try it" 20x a day. my kids are still little and ive got a mortgage, most of the time i just can’t afford the stuff you guys are always on about
There is nothing here to prevent hidden agendas so you can be sure they are there and not hard to detect over time. It is what it is. High end audio is pretty much one big expensive hidden agenda. As long as people are respectful and factual, and not trying to take advantage of others, no problem. Transparency is the key for longevity when interacting with others.
I remember that. That whole thing was weird. As for hunting and drinking. I don’t drink, and I quit hunting men! Game never intrigued me. I’m a big ol softy when it comes to animals. Everyone (the animals) was a doorstep baby. Kids not so much, I give them back or pass them off to the neighbor lady.. :-)
Almarg went to heaven, I didn’t know him, BUT I read a lot of his replies. He was patient, a Gentleman and truly missed.
I don’t care for people to much, 2 hours a week with my grandson is plenty for me.
Lookin’ at the neighbor lady, I’m good for 5 minutes. Talkin’ 2. :-)
I type more than I talk. I don't like big words. BUT I like big Bu..s I cannot lie.. :-)
I get you have a personal connection with MC. Somewhere along the line several persons stated he was narcissistic. I would have to say that that would be an upgrade compared to how I look at his problems. I wouldn't have given a sh*t except you couldn't sign onto A'gon without seeing his thousands of posts.
I am one of the persons that he said complained about him to the Washington State Radiologist Board or whatever he was talking about. He is the only person who ever insulted Almarg. He would have kept doing it if so many people hadn't called him out on it, just his low life way. I am not a rat, never once have complained about him or anyone else in 20 years.
You have lived a colorful life, and a lot of us have also. You like your country boy persona, but the truth is I do live in the country. Hunting, and drinking with the boys during the season, he wouldn't be invited to our camp.
I'm impressed, sound tribal almost, 60s. Togas anyone. No ONE will iron out a difference for me, period. That is between me and the nitwit I have a beef with.
As for MC, I miss him. He'll be back.
I never met a person I didn't like, until AG. Then I had to consider I had only read the AG forums for 15 years, never participated. It's always what they do, not the person, that is what I was taught. No BAD people, just bad things.. BOY was I wrong. Live and learn!
I thought about the stuff that went on by the few at the time. It was the wild wild west. With people reporting because they were reported. Funny to watch the kids play. 3 pages of back and fourth by 6 or so people.
I had to talk about the chickens and the rabbit and the dog and that damn goat they made more sense.
MC talked to me on a few occasion rather brash, I returned the favor. He was trying the waters with ME.. I'm a GOOD swimmer. That lasted for 30 days or so..
Then I almost died, I WAS CLOSE! Blood clot in my lung and in my heart and was have daily heart attacks for 10 weeks.
I went from fixing a fence and bruising my thigh to three days later fighting for my life. I been shot 3 time, ALL felt better. Kidney stones felt better. That's sayin' something too.
I needed a procedure that could fix me, I was to sick for it, I had lost 1/2 of a lung.
They gave me less than a week to live.. I say my Goodbyes and guess who PMs me. That's right.. MC. "Your gonna be all right" He asked about what I was having done. I told him what I knew. "Your gonna be all right".
Ya know when your a mechanic all your life and you can't fix a STUPID broken heart, it sucks...:-)
I said goodbye to the wife, kissed the dog and rabbit fed the chickens a flipped off the goat as he ate the rest of my hat and drove myself to the hospital.
Having perused all available documentation pertaining to this forum, it would appear that there are NO disclosure requirements incumbent upon contributing parties.
Disparaging comments about Audio Troy are off base. Audio Troy has never hidden that he is a dealer, professional salesperson, and has a wide range of products for sale he likes to aggressively push. There are not many bricks and mortar stores left, relatively speaking, enjoy them while you can. In summary, not all of us are sensitive to his schtick, as if it’s unusual for a salesman to put down a competitor’s product over his own.
Regarding MC, if I never read his name or initials again it will be too soon. Enough said.
What a lot people here now do not realize, is that twenty years ago a significant purpose of Audiogon was to build a community that felt comfortable buying and selling to each other, and to call out persons or establishments that were not reputable, by name. In fact, there was a complaint process right here where a buying or selling member would write his/her complaint online and the opposing party would answer the complaint, and then all Audiogon members could give their opinions online, until a settlement was met. And this was all approved and monitored by the Audiogon mods.
I agree with much of the above about be wary of the hype. Some of these guys that are making comparisons with gear costing thousands of dollars but they have one speaker in a corner and the other in a hallway with no reflection point (like mine). They will go on about how a cable swap changed their life and now their whole music collection is complete again, etc. How do we find the line between being enthusiastic and sharing experiences responsibly for people looking to sort through the information? Some of these guys are just enthusiastic, maybe their system is spiritual to them, or maybe they like attention... Some do provide information to others that see them as an authority, so not discounting them either. I do believe we have a number of trained salesman (not in audio) that are just having fun. Believe me, I'm about free speech and would rather have people post fantasies than not be able to post, but reader beware, you have to separate the wheat from the chaff.
As far as dealers posting here goes, there is an internet marketing phrase known as "being an authority in your field". Also 'being present in your market". Both of these methods build trust and are known to lead to sales. Isn't this what our experts and very interested dealer/owner participants are doing? These audio sites are the target market, or at least some fraction (I question if this is the actively employed portion when I look at post counts 🤣). Good for them for being creative about it and not just continually throwing their name and product as being better than the post above (trolling) but I'm sure all methods work.
“ I’ve caught audio2design a few times reinventing him/herself. There were a few that did it, trying to be a sneak, you’ll see a LOT of that around MCs post. They arrive like flies to $hit. “
Awwww Bless … as to the former adjective yup ,, Flies like a Butterfly Stings like a Bee , as to the latter adjective you are entirely correct !
some people may, with good intentions encourage a product because they like it/bought it/use it in their system when it may not be the right choice for someone else for any number of reasons. That can happen even when the poster promoting the product isn’t getting any financial return from a sale.
I agree with Whart and believe his point is true. In some cases, people recommend gear they own that is an improvement over the gear they previously owned but in the broad sense of what is available in the market, the gear being recommended may be just ok. When people post their systems, it can provide context on their recommendations. It is also nice when people provide comparisons between the gear they are recommending and the specific pieces they have owned previously, to help others understand their baseline.
As with anything in life, people need to do their research and take recommendations as somebody else’s opinion and not necessarily gospel, whether the person recommending is a professional reviewer, a manufacturer, a dealer in a B&M store, or simply a poster on these forums. For example, a year or so ago I decided to try springs under my heavy speakers and I did a lot of research on the sizing of the springs and how to position, preload, and damp them. After some trial and error I found springs that work well under my main speakers and subs and I like the sound and function better than the spikes they replaced. However, I did not see a reason to jump on the Townshend bandwagon and do not perceive any reason why those should be better than what I am using with the exceptions that the Townshend products are suitable for a wider range of speaker/equipment weights and they have somewhat easier functionality, but not necessarily better performance, assuming the goal is about sonic improvement. In addition, the Townshend products cost a lot more than what I paid, even considering the cost of extra springs I purchased during my trial and error process.
Regarding dealers and manufacturers, I enjoy having them around and usually learn from their posts. Almost all of them readily identify themselves from what I can tell. However, I find the recent Ted Denney threads interesting in that folks who don’t place high importance on cables, fuses, etc., or those who don’t hear significant differences, are called out as having systems with insufficient resolution, having unsuitable hearing capabilities, or being a "naysayer" whatever that means. It sort of seems like going to a ballgame where only the home team fans are allowed in the stands.
"[S]o a word to the wise here, especially newbies, please beware when folks here are trying to ’help’ you by recommending x-y-z, be it equipment, tweaks, cables, fuses ... sometimes they are actually helping themselves even though it looks like they are being generous and kind...".
This is very good advice. I’d take it a step further--leaving aside dealers who use the forum to try to garner sales, or "shills," some people may, with good intentions encourage a product because they like it/bought it/use it in their system when it may not be the right choice for someone else for any number of reasons. That can happen even when the poster promoting the product isn’t getting any financial return from a sale.
Which take us into the whole subject of system matching and the dreaded "synergies" or complementary components. I’ve been doing this a long time and don’t have a holistic view. I think I would add that short of listening to the precise equipment you intend to buy in your system (one of the possible benefits of the direct sales model as long as there is a right of return that doesn’t involve exorbitant repackaging and shipping fees), you are shooting in the dark. Yes, there are some well known combinations of equipment that a consensus of users like and use, but to borrow from MC’s philosophy for a moment (I know), it may be good to be an outlier and try something different from the rest of the pack. Where each user draws the line in terms of risk, financial exposure, equipment churn, etc. will vary. I think some people just like to try different equipment. I’m not necessarily going to condemn that, though I’ve pretty much managed to buy and enjoy long term. How did I do it? I can’t really point to any guru-bestowed wisdom. I think it is exposure and seat time as much as it is talking on forums like this one.
I’d also say it is good to have a mentor, but they will undoubtedly have biases too.
At least it’s cheaper than collecting old Ferraris, or buying vintage WE 300B tubes.
*g* Overall, I like MCs' expositions on this 'n that....
...but when he seems to be 'nudging an item' in particular, I've got this 'black out syndrome' that has great timing... ;)
To Be True, I'm a manufacturer....of something that has absolutely NOTHING to do with audio Anything.
You can stand on it with your I'mFog'd stuck in ears and throw down your best moves... ;)
I could use a good guffaw...😏
Given our current 'economic climate', I won't go aghast if someone brings their work to the forums. It's just good manners to leave your work at the door on entry, like taking one's shoes off before walking on a white carpet.... ;)
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
