If you know that a user is a dealer and they fail to disclose and attacks other users because they make a point against their interest, do you expose the user?
I know of a gentleman here that continuously posts and goes after people and does not disclose who he is.
Anybody pretending to know how is the sound of a system exactly by contemplating image of the gear without listening to the room acoustic is deluded....
or he sell gear and upgrade...
An acoustician dont look the gear to bash it or praise it, he listen to the room....
I am only a regular guy able to experiment in my dedicated room and this is the only essential fact i learned....
Nobody can prove me wrong about that....
I already look at one million dollars bling system that seems awful because of the ROOM....mIne is 500 bucks.... I dont pretend it is better , i do pretend that price tag means way less than acoustic....
Then pretending to know what is the real s.q. of a system without listening the acoustic seetings is meaningless...
Saying that a Sansui or a McIntosh amplifier are bad or low S.Q. or the reverse without listening them in a very good acoustically controlled room is also meaningless.. Some audiophiles called this ignorance a "taste"....
But nobody could ever know what will be the s.q difference . of the gear before and after a rightfull acoustic embeddings treatment and control...
Then taste are only that : taste, and they may change....
Acoustic dont change...Why?
Because it is the way to bent the room in relation to the specific needs of the gear and speakers using your specific ears to tune the relation...
There is nothing in common between the room acoustic where we listen Puccini
and wearing a kimono to increase our perception of the music...
Then assimilating the two is only that : a joke...
By the way my audio journey is completed i listen music not my system...
I never bought anything nor any upgrade save the basic gear i own...
I am here for some friends and advising and learning about the key problem in audio :acoustic.... And also speaking about my low cost solutions..
i can also use a COMBO of your post and any other people post, mixing them and make a cheap joke at your expanse... .
Easy...
but i dont do that ....I dont need to .... Guess why?
It is because mocking others is not the best way to keep the appearence of being wise especially if we are not so much wise to begin with....
I use a combo of these:
there are many people who view music as as a tool for evaluating their systems.
which are very much a statement of their being related to the validation process..
And …
Then pretending to know what is the real s.q. of a system without listening the acoustic seetings is meaningless...
Basically if I can get the little lady to play pretend or dress-up, and start prancing around the living room with a horned viking helmet acting out the shield-maiden role while playing Wagner, or dress-up in a Kimono when i play Madame Butterfly (but replacing the sepaku for the final scene), then THAT is also a good measure of listening success.
I never denigrate The products mr. Denney sell, even after he mocked my old room...I only maintained that acoustic is way better than any "tweaks"...
I used myself many homemade tweaks resembling what he sell... I dont doubt that his tweaks are better than mine.... Why not?
I am alone he is not....He put money behind his tweak research not me...
I claim that no tweaks can replace acoustic treatment and control ever.... NONE..
Then he mocked my room without never giving me any argument .... i think he sense me to be a menacing truth for his products even if his product are directed to consumers who dont own a dedicated room anyway....Acoustic cannot be defeated by tweaks nor replaced by tweaks...Sorry...
He prove to me that what is important is not so much truth in audio but selling his devices first....it is understandable he is a seller ....
But i dont like to be treated that way with inunendo about my room...i put the images there to begin with i dont give a dam about what others think....many mocked my room already... But i dont accept that in a public discussion...
I had a hidden agenda but i sell nothing save creativity :
Audiophile experience with the three embeddings controls of the working electrical mechanical and acoustical dimensions for the cost of peanuts...
Audio is plagued by mass market conditioning to UPGRADE gear and ignorance of the three embeddings controlled or uncontrolled working dimensions of ANY audio system and the way to optimize ANY system...
Ignorance of acoustic and promotion of costly "tweaks" with no systematic simple method to optimize audio system is a catastrophy that create a tail chase and great unsatifaction and frustration...
My posts are for the "poor" audiophile...People with money will never use a straw to transform acoustically their room unless the straw cost was 1,000 bucks, anyway they will not even believe it is possible ... 😁😊
I have created a solution for "rich" audiophile:
If someone want to buy one straw i pay them less than one cent at Wallmart but i will send you one for only 100 bucks, you will save 900 buck on their regular price... I must pay my research cost in acoustic after all....
😁😊
Seriously i dont care about the gear product branded names...Electronical engineering is mature industry able to give us plenty of good product at all price...
I care about electrical,mechanical and especially acoustical method to embed ANY system and optimize it so much that upgrading will appear almost meaningless with ANY gear and at any PRICE...
«The way we walk matter more than the road we take sometimes»-Anonymus Smith
«I use the walls and the room pressure zones guided by my ears drums to improve my speakers drivers workings»-Anonymus Acoustician
«Are you saying that the speakers branded name choice or cost matter less than the zone pressures distributions of the room?» Anonymus Audiophile
«Yes, it is a not so much hidden agenda now » -Anonymus acoustician
My audio system value is 500 bucks and it is me who smile about all rich audiophile bragging about their costly gear without even knowing how to embed them mechanically, electrically and acoustically...
Then relax no one dared to mock my system here for the last 7 years..
If you think that it is only money who can give audiophile experience and not science and brain you are dead wrong...
Come and welcome here...Nobody will mock your system save idiots...
My deeperst respect to you....
I’ve expressed my views about people who have degraded those of use who do not have a lot of money to invest on the systems that many of you have but still enjoy what we have to the best of our ability. However, every time i try to defend those of us with lower incomes, but still enjoy what we have, are either down graded or the post is removed. Please forgive us for not having the income to invest on systems that many of you have. However, we are just looking to you guys for advice for what we can do with our limited incomes.
Boasting about gear branded name is most of the time a reflecting ignorance about the three other factors huge contribution to the S.Q. most of the time way more than a single piece of gear so good it is: mechanical and electrical and especially acoustical control...
People sell their choices of favorite gear often by lack of confidence in their knowledge...
-First there is room non dedicated audio room: living room...
-Second passive material treatment is not enough in a truly DEDICATED audio room which is not a living room...It takes experiments in active mechanical control with Helmholtz method..
-Third we must chose the gear BEFORE controlling the room, why? Because generally the size of the speakers and the dimension of the room must be commensurate and the type of the speakers must be adapted to the geometry of the room, and because the goal of the room control is too adapt the room to the large bandwidth response called "timbre" to the ears, and i did it mechanically...
My dedicated audio room is not pretty because i BOUGHT no pretty costly ready made devices i made them myself with junk materials at no cost from one dollar store or from my basement...
Acoustic preinciples dont mind esthethic and cost...A set of straws and discarded plumbers tubes etc nust obey acoustic principle not art...And i am not a crafty skilled person like many of you...I know how to study thats all because it was my job before retirement...
Appearence is not sound quality no more than a beautiful amplifier must be good because he is way more beautiful..That is prejudice...
-And fourth yes sorry, but a completely dedicated audio room is the only luxury in audio not the price of the gear...If not i will go on chasing my tail and changing the gear wiithout being able to made my acoustic experiments... Is it possible to do it in a living room, yes, but only if you know what to do and to some extent only...
-Finally judging people according to their brandeed name product and room esthetic is only that PREJUDICES... Listening is the only way to judge...My room is not pretty and i decided to not put any more photos for years now from my room which is impossible to describe because it ressemble a cavern where a nut operate...Some seller here make precisely disparaging inuendo about that this week...People are stupid when they judge on appearence this will not change, but some have their own agenda to do so and they will repeat your final post paragraph here because this suit their selling agenda not audio experience and experiments and partaking of knowledge...
A resume of my discoveries in acoustic experiments :
No speakers at any cost will beat by his upgrading power acoustic control,
Here are these 6 aspects of acoustic control parameters in a room i experimented with :
1 -Balance between absorbing surfaces,
2 -Reflecting one,
3 -Diffusive one....
This was "classical" passive material treatment of a room, now these 3 new other factors are related to my concept of the mechanical active control of a room ( what i called a mechanical equalizer):
4-control over reverberation time and timing of the wavefronts
5- control over the distribution of the pressure zones
6- fine layering and tuning of the laminar flow
These 3 last aspects could be controlled with Helmhotz mechanical method NOT by electronical equalization...or by some costly "tweak"...
Then the piano will not sound the same from the same pair of speakers in a non controlled room and in a controlled one...Not even close...
Dont upgrade good speakers with costly one BEFORE studying and experimenting with acoustic...
My acoustic devices and experiments were all homemade and cost me nothing...
I can then claim that great hi-Fi experience is possible at low cost contrary to what is claimed or supposed almost everywhere by almost everyone...
People dont know acoustic and never seriously try experimenting with it in a dedicated small room.
You are not wrong. For sure.
About “YOUR ROOM”…. Let’s walk this through: any person serious about good audio will take care of the “room”. Assuming good size & dimensions, and audio specific (not a general living room area where WAF comes in play, and rightly so), it’s relatively very cheap to treat the room with speaker positioning, as well as acoustic panels, like I did with GIK, absorbers and diffusers everywhere including ceiling, bass traps, etc. etc. Yes, it takes some time and effort to make it right, as well as some knowledge and understanding, using microphone and tools (I used REW and UMIK-1 which I still have), and some professional help if necessary (I did hire someone mostly for aesthetics and accuracy for the ceiling stuff). But it’s fun, and we learn a lot while doing it.
Every “gearophile” I personally know, has taken care of the “room”. It’s not that hard, relatively cheap, and people who can spend $3,000 on a power cord can easily afford to “treat the room”, and let’s face it, these are the same people who can actually afford to have a dedicated sizable audio room / house, not those who can barely afford to own an amp. Am I wrong?
So let’s say “YOUR ROOM” is taken care of. Now what? It ends there? You can put any kind of speakers on that PERFECT room? Amps? If the room is perfect, say you inherited daddy’s big house, then what? What percentage of your total audio endeavors are done?
Or from another angle, for most of us mortals, let’s say we can only have a system in a general purpose living room or family room, or bedroom, with a wife and kids in the house, no dedicated perfectly sized spare room, then what? Abort the pursuit because the room cannot possibly be perfect?
Oh… more often than not, from my experience, it’s the same people who cry wolf and shout loudly ROOM!!! and gear does not matter, who have crappie general purpose “rooms” with a small minority having some panels here and there thrown in haphazardly where wife allows with no rhyme or reason. Not always so, but the majority of these folks. Just ask them to show you their “room”.
Some people own a brain Denney...I speak with those...
Keep the others and sell them your miracle solutions...
You dont have any self respect because you NEVER give me an argument in ANY of your numerous threads now closed...
You give me what sellers with agenda give to any discussion : no discussion and inuendos...
I know others sellers here who discuss and inform us OBJECTIVELY...You are not one...
I will repeat: my dedicated audio room is my laboratory not a living room...It is way nuttier than it was on those photos years ago anyway... 😁😊But my S.Q is enough for me... And here i never brag about my system but about acoustic importance.... Thats all...
Why do you think he was not pleased with my arguments and attack my "room" ?
It costed me NOTHING to transform completely my S.Q
I sell that good news here for all audiophiles benefit who dont have money... he sell costly product that will do some part of what i did but differently and at a high cost compared to me no cost solutions..And if i judge by the way his electronical costly toy affect the sound not necessarily for the better compared to Helmholtz mechanical method...It is fair to say that i listen to this only on youtube but that dont give me the irge to buy that at all... Room Acoustic is a mechanical and material science FIRST, electronical only in a secondary way...
He is here to gather consumers and sell product not to partake knowledge and discussing ...
I am here to sell creativity and discussing ...
Only an idiot or a seller can mock my room ...I have humor i myself called my room nut room...But there is different laughs in life...I dont accept innuendo from seller...
He is the only one to act like that here, the other was another seller here i will not name 7 years ago...but this other seller change his reaction discussing with me and we became friends... I become friend this month with another acoustic seller here who give me even new idea.... Then this one seller bad attitude speak volume ...
@ted_denney : did you ever read some of the material on the link you posted? You and @mahgister have a lot more in common than you might think. Take a read. Yes, the implementation is different, but the concepts and functionality may overlap with what your company designs and sell.
Consult wikipedia about Helmholtz resonators for example and out of the mathematical relation between the mechanical different part and ratio of them point me where they speak about shiny motor engines, and shiny body work ?
I created some H.G. with empty paper toilet rolls and straws for some listening fun experiments yes... 😁😊 Science is not marketing my friend...it is brain work...nevermind the materials save his acoustic properties and use...
And sound waves dont mind that your name is on the devices or not or if the device will please your wife... Acoustic dont discuss price tags, is it clear for you now?
Acoustic is a science not a way to make money...I never discuss myself the value of your product or disparage them like you did with inuendo for my room... Why? because my agenda is to discuss with everyone here and sell creativity and it cost nothing... You dont like that? Eat it...
I see nothing in common aside from the similarities between a 1967 Volkswagen bug, and a 2022 Ferrari F8 Tributo, both have four wheels and internal combustion.
Use a brain before making cheap car metaphor to disparage me...
Why do you think i dont mind posting my virtual page photos?
But there is laugh from friends and laughs from others...
i never make innuendo about your product value like you make about my room suggesting to others that my knowledge is void because of these images..
Do you remember?
Isntead of dicussing my posts and correct me you make this inuendo, inacceptable for me...
And now another one : "or if I pointed out the fact that your days seem to be filled with posting on these boards nonstop while attacking others, often times in all capital letters, with a posting style that seems unhinged and angry, would that be disparaging you?"
I never attack people if they dont attack me i like discussing with ARGUMENTS...
My capital letters are there to underline a word...
I have more friends here than foes...because i dont attack people and if i hurt someone i immediately apologize..
And i am 70 years old and retired and have plenty of time for my audio system then i discuss here with no other AGENDA than discussing...And you, why do you take the time to create so much threads and make inuendo about my room in many posts? do you have plenty of time too to do so?
You never give me an argument only a disparaging INUENDO about my room ...
I accept laughs from friends not from sellers who refuse to discuss save for disparaging my room and who creates here many threads not so much to discuss but to fish customers it seems... It is your right to do so yes...
But dont make other inuendo about my room...stay silent about my post in your thread if you dont answer arguments...Acoustic is a science not a seller market personal possession...
or if I pointed out the fact that your days seem to be filled with posting on these boards nonstop while attacking others, often times in all capital letters, with a posting style that seems unhinged and angry, would that be disparaging you?
Take some tubes or bottles, construct for them a neck with straws of variable lenght by adding segments or substracting segments , and with straws of variable perimeter ....No need to calculate anything for this fun experiment....make some other tubes of different volume size without neck only a fabric cloth for filtering the aperture also with variable size...The first volume will absorb more than diffuse by virtue of the ratio between the volume and his neck, the other without neck will diffuse more than they absorb...
But remember that the mechanical Helmoltz control cannot replace the balance between passive material treatment with absorbing surfaces, diffusive surfaces and reflecting surfaces at the right spot in the room... I make all this by EARS listening experiments during many months each day... It was the more fun i ever have...
Make a few of them, tubes and bottles with different size and put them on various reflection point in the room..
Only this fun experiment will give you a "taste" of things to come..
Now it is impossible to design these bottles and tubes in a grid of resonators and diffusers with an priori size because of the specificity of each room content, and geometry and because of the specific needs of each speakers type...
This grid of H. R. has the goal to change the distribution of the zone pressures to accomodate the room response to this specific speakers you own FOR YOUR EARS who act like a microphone... The timbre of instrument response from the speakers is used here like a test frequency coming from an electronical equalizer, instead here the grid of tubes is a mechanical equalizer... The volume of the tubes must be varied...
I eliminate negative impact of one tube by the self correecting number of the tubes in my grid designed by adding one or two or three at a times with the response of my ears to correct mechanically each one ratio aperture or neck lenght... It is easy and fun like tuning a piano...Anybody can do it with self confidence... And we learn how to listen in the process... it is an INCREMENTAL process of correction of the room for our specific speakers...
You must experiment...
I did mine on a long time experiment each day non stop for months...It cost me peanuts...
Each room need his particular grid...
But the principle is very simple and easy to play with IF YOU HAVE A DEDICATED ROOM... If not your wife will divorce... Sorry... 😁😊
But a room need material passive treatment also ...
Helmholtz resonators and diffusers cannot replace treatment, and passive material treatment cannot in no way replace mechanical Helmholtz control...
my room is a dedicated audio room for sure and my numerous tubes look like the pipe organ distributed around my room and two listening positions...
The result is so amazing that my system of 500 bucks give a ratio S.Q. /price over the roof....
No sellers of acoustic panels sells a grid of resonator which anyway must be tuned by ears for specific ears, room and speakers..If a pro acoustician would dare to do that the cost will be more near 100,000 dollars with the time need for the tuning and the material cost of the passive treatment plus the cost of the esthetically pleasing H.R. resonators and diffusers......
Think about that: it cost me nothing save using junk materials...It is not esthetical though but i dont give a dam, i dont want and i cannot afford to throw my money...
An audiophile system was my dream beginning was i had 24 years old...life never give me the time to do it and learn it right till my retirement...
Why do you think my information dont please everyone?
For sure you need a dedicated audio room... This is the ONLY costly device need for audio , NOT THE GEAR, the room...Almost all other audiophiles claim that the gear matter first and last, but they are wrong...Almost no one experimentr with acoustic, most people buy acoustic panels all stop there at best...
The electronical engineering industry is mature for the last 70 years...A good amplifier of 1960 is a good one today...
But the science of small room acoustic exist with the demand which exist ONLY for the last few decades with the production of stereo comnplex separate audio system parts...
But TRUST your ears and educate your listening with each modification effects...
Almost everyone think that hearing is a skill limited and ruled only by a decibel scale resolution and a frequency scale limits...
But it is simplistic assumption about hearing power who use sound in a very complex way to extract information from the source of sound and deduce many qualities of this source even his image for example in the case of blind people acting like bat....
We are all unrecognized bats.... Ask someone who become blind and must learn to SEE sounds...
And remember that the sound dont come from the speaker but from the room between your ears and the speakers...buy good speakers not 100,000 bucks speakers...
Then you will not put money on 100,000 bucks amplifier either .... I am happy for those who can throw this amount of money, but it is not necessary to enjoy music and beautiful acoustic...
Most S.Q, come from acoustic when you use basic good gear...Ask any scientist...
My deepest respects to you...
@mahgister Thank you!!! I will give it a try. HRs always fascinated me.
If you dont understand the difference between love and hate and judging others too harshly you will distort with sarcasm any wise sentence to your own agenda...
Try to understand before mocking...
I dont defend MC harsh manners at all, i hate them, but hating someone and pointing to him always is useless...
And my point about moral imagination and topology is deeper than some sarcasm..
Ask me i will explain it to you if it exceed your brain power...I will draw an image for you because it seems you like them a lot...
Me too i can use sarcasm.... 😊😊😊😊😊😁😁😁😁😊😊😊😊
Is martyrdom a thing in audio? Sounds like some are preparing for the second coming. jeez.
I dont defend MC bad behaviour...I hate it...But i dont hate anybody MC included...Every people has a positive and negative side, even idiots, save hypocrits but i will not answer their post anyway...Silence is better than attack in these case...
Otherwise polite discussion and arguments are the best way....
I dont like the systematic gangbang in a consistent manner against someone... ANYBODY...
Any adult confront someone who abuse him without appealing to a crowd...
You wrote to me one time because i dare to speak to him about audio....What do you call that? I know that you wanted to act friendly toward me and i thank you for that, i have greatly appreciated it, but i cannot go with one against another one save in exceptional abuse case...
Dividing people in groups against ANYBODY is what i hate the most...
I am able to confront big ego ALONE....
No need to call a crowd...
I apologize if my post hurt you...It was not my intention but instead clarifying my own position....You are a very sensible and honest person....
My deepest respect to you...
please do explain the tolerance for hypocrisy displayed by the large box of Chinese tweeters…..
You are right about the created division...Any too big ego will create divisions...
But remember that toxicity is one thing, and contagious disease another one...
Toxic aspect of one personality did not give us the right to scapegoating someone and creating polarising alternatives around him like : for or against MC...
Worst than toxicity of one ego is the contagious hating polarising hysteria of many or few ...
All is not black or white here....
Ok i will mute myself for now...I apologize for my stance...
I like everydoby positive aspects of all people here....It is my way to love everybody...
To be frank i like to have friends here.... All people here are interesting for me in their own way....
As the saying goes “ Even From Beyond The Grave “ this Toxic individual engenders Fractious Disharmony upon this forum … Good Riddance
I apologize when i am wrong ...And i am wrong often because i post much...
It is not a game for me...And not an ideological right/left game either for me...
I dont straddle any fence, especially not the fence you try to create yourself between someone and others...
When i answer a post and react in a too rapid or rude way i apologize so what?
Do you think that all people here had a political playbook or an insightful infaillible understanding ?
I denounce people so much? what are you speaking about ?
i answered many posts here and when i am wrong or too much carried by my passion i apologize or make room in my arguments for others perspective, so what?
The only one who claim to be "pure" and right here is yourself not me...
How many times did you apologize here? never?
Myself i had been if not wrong too much passionate and i apologized because i was educated to recognize my own limitations...
Not you?
And yet you never hesitate to point at someone else, do you?
You straddle the fence between being oh, so holy and above it all and at the same time denounce others only to apologize, often, since you do it so much.
I am a passionate man too much sometimes but truth matter more for me than my own opinion...
Then i apologize when i sense i am not completely right... If you think that this is a game of my part this say more about you than about me...
By the way i know too much what is a "saint" to pretend to be one... But i pretend to be not completely stupid...
Yes i know i had a big ego...I will not contradict you on this...
My system does not sound better than most system at all..This is not what i said or claim....
But because of acoustic control it sound NEARER to his utmost own higher potential, yes.. There is no comparison between BEFORE and AFTER acoustic control implementation devices...
It is very important to say that because boasting about our own system means nothing, but informing people about acoustic is very important matter...
His system probably sounds better than most because his dedication to learning.
Your sentence is perfect...it is your own opinion and you had the right to say so and think so... Perhaps you are even right...
I just wanted to add my corrective remark because people could think that i was boasting about my system...Acoustic matter for me not my choice of gear even if i like my gear..
@mahgister I should have said better than some of the systems I listened. I am sorry for the note about your system.
in the context of our discussion...I am WRONG to come back to political point of view to justify myself... Even if everybody know on what side of the fence is MC and where you are...
You are perfectly right here...
Do you understand now WHY i must apologize sometime?
Do you understand how work a faithful discussion? it is not a game for me... when we discuss TRUTH matter... And NOBODY OWN TRUTH... especially not me...
Anyway i apologize to you and to all because my post alluding to politic was OIL THROW ON A FIRE.. Then yes you are right i am wrong about this part of my post...
By the way, i respect your intelligence but sometimes passions collide....
Then truth matter...
and apology is needed...
And there you go, again. You always have to play the political angle when you have nothing to use. Where does politics play in this? You’ve done it before when the discussion/debate was over Covid, calling me out for my political views when I was citing proven medical science. Now you’re doing it again.
I don’t pretend to be a saint, a savior, or any kind of righteous individual. The way you frame your accusations is kind of funny. I guess in order to do so you can create a field from which to defend yourself but it’s not germane to the topic.
Carry on. 😇
All the best,
Nonoise
Anyway you are right...for my last post here....For covid it is another story i will not touch here...
The problem is if someone act freely without any interest attached it is not the same thing if he is paid to say something...
But there is many others audio forum and MC is talented in english prose and i dont doubt that he will succeed...
I wish him the best like i wish it to any people here.... Why not?
wrt MC and Townshend, one wonders whether a major factor determining his appointment to that position was his capacity to act as an online ‘influencer’ ?
Your post say the obvious and mask (voluntarily or not) the essential....
The obvious: any end result in audio come and is commanded by subjective perceptive experience yes for sure...
The essential:
Any process of education of our own taste and biases and experience is about the incremental CORRELATIVE process of subjective evaluation AND measures and objective eexperiments in engineering AND especially in acoustic sciences also...
as most audiophiles understand audio, and in particular audio performance, is ultimately a subjective phenomenon;
And comparing your threads question and formulated opinions which if they are contested could only be contested by witches hunters and cancel culture people is to be kind a completely exagerated opinion and to be less kind a twisted turn of the mind explanable only by your hidden motives... I dont know which one explain your post...
Cancel culture is the 21st centuries book burning.
Creativity is free and the "hideous" or non esthetical appearance of my homemade devices is an hard proof that their basic cost is peanuts...Not a proof that they did not work...
He think that using my virtual page against me discredit me and go on posting my adress which i created in the first place ... 😁😊
Anyway my actual laboratory room with more than one hundred tubes and 50 bottles and cables all over the place is a "mad scientist cavern" way sillier than in these old images in my virtual page, my children laugh without end seeing my room but they are very pleased by the S.Q. though...Guess why? 😉
It will be comical one time for him to act like that but he repeat it instead of answering arguments...
Now it is pathetical because he is supposed to be a serious sellers...
Perhaps he feel my low cost devices a menace?
I dont think so though...
I think that thinking with sound arguments is not his forte...
@mahgister watch out I, think Ted might be trying to clone some of your devices - he appears to be obsessed with them
How many millenia do you need to understand that yes the subjective impression is the end judge, this is ONLY a common place fact, BUT the PROCESS to CORRELATE electronical and electrical measures in a designing process is necessary and more than that the ACOUSTICAL process of fine tuning a room need a continuous CORRELATION between our ears/brain and the OBJECTIVE acoustic content measures and size of the devices in the room... ?
It is what i did myself in my "silly" room, whose photos were your only argument to discredit what i called Helmholtz method... Ad hominem attack....
The fact that you refused to adress this and go on opposing subjectivist against objectivist push the same stupid ideological audio useless and completely wrong war for MARKETING REASON...
You stir a pot and try to ridiculize me my friend and that i cannot accept it instead of arguments...
Subjectivist and objectivist division made no sense whatsoever...
Subjectivist sit on their ass listening their system and judging it good for their taste WITHOUT never adressing the process of correlating their acoustical perceptions with the OBJECTIVE content of the room.. They idolized their costly gear and tweaks and toys too much...
Objectivist measure a dac for example and declare it good or bad WITHOUT ever recognizing the huge power over our impression of the room acoustic and without recognizing in our own knowledge our very limitation about the known relation between electrical measures and acoustical measures and correlated acoustic perceived SUBJECTIVE impression...They idolized their measuring tools too much...
Objectivist and subjectivist are two groups created by market conditioning... And you go on with that for your own marketting reason ... Simple...
Educating people is not the same as selling a device... Acoustic principle are the key to audio not the gear and the tweaks ONLY and MAINLY...
No need to answer this post of mine, like usual post my virtual page... 😁😊😊😊😊
Make a fool of yourself....
At no time was I pushing my products, but rather, making it obvious the fallacies inherent in the objectivist approach.
Thanks for the sketch and for saying it better than me ...
It is not objective or subjective....objective can give you a guideline for what you subjectively should be hearing/appreciating. Only listening without understanding the specs is ridiculous, as is not listening and only going by specs.
This is a ridiculous argument. It reminds me of Monty Python to tell you the truth.
Enjoy one of the funniest sketches of all time. everyone needs to lighten up.
Thanks for this free interesting tool test for speakers...
It prove that my speakers were not bad at all...
One day it would be interesting to test my speakers before my damping anti resonant double set of dyssimetrically compressed springs use and after...
@tomic601 - thanks, I think?? Ha. I know I’m opinionated, I am here also to learn from this forum. And so, I thank you all (even the ones who may not like what I write) if there’s something I have or can learn from you, when I am ready to receive new/better knowledge.
I was introduced to an excellent test of speaker cabinets from my old boss and friend, he played a frequency sweep through a pair of reasonably well regarded mid priced speakers and you could hear the multiple node breakouts the enclosures made throughout the sweep. Astonishing to discover exactly where (frequencies) the cabinets exhibited distortion in playback.
I plan to do it ONLY if i must sell my actual house when the mother of my wife will die... I hope it will take years...
My speakers are heavily modified like my room is...
The S.Q. is very good for me...
But i dont want to do the work of reloading them and fine tuned them again with the springs and all the devices i used on them if i am not in the obligation to do it...
I will be in this situation when i would go in another house anytime soon or not, i dont know when ...
But i planned to reload and retune them with this tool at this time to better fine tune my 2 sets of springs which are compressed with different load above and on top... In my experience even under 100 grams of load of the near 80 pounds of concrete make an audible difference... It takes me few days to tune them..
For now the speakers seems very good on this count...not perfect but good...
All speakers had resonance...
@mahgister - if you ever use the sweep and play with the mass on top of your speakers to tune the load, I’d love to read your findings?
And of course, as you share, always welcome that I can share something of benefit to you sir.
Before all my tuning of the speakers, so good they are well spoken of in all reviews with no negative criticism at all, they not impress me in my nude non controlled room and with no mechanical or electrical noise floor control 5 years ago... After my Tannoy especially, which were on another design quality level...
But with all my work they sound very well better than anything i listen to even magneplanar in a non tretated and non controlled room and even my past Tannoy..
Upgrading seems foolishness to me... They are not the best speaskers at all for sure but the piano is there in my room...It is enough...
Mechanical and electrical control is great improvement, but acoustic is the only key to audio in small room..Not thebranded name of the speaker... I dont trust anyone vouching for a brand in audio... Guess why?
Too many good brand anyway for all many tastes ans needs...
People dream about 100,000 amplifier price tag without even knowing how to create a room for them... Think about that.... 😁😊
If i judge the results with youtube limittations for sure no costly gear is for me not even necessary at all...
Acoustic rule....
But suppose i am right and that all consumers know that truth ?
It will be the downfall of electronic engineering market evolution ... I dont want this fall, electronical design improvement is a good thing and small business need this profit margin to do their research... And most people are unable to do their time consuming acoustic homework anyway.... Most people really think that they listen to their gear not to the room...
But i will tell you a secret, Acoustic alone is the key... Dont repeat it....
mahgister I’m glad you tried loaded mass speaker isolation, I’m guessing you’re glad also??!!
It is useless to debate with anyone unable to be logical and with an agenda..
I myself always present arguments...
Argument are a string of thesis attached in an order...
being conscious of our own premises is very important to pounder the value of a conclusion...
Reading a book and understanding it call for that elementary knowledge of logic and some consciousness about our own internal state of mind at the time of the reading....
Many are unable and anyway unwilling to be logical ...And conscious of what they are doing anyway...They do it without being conscious at all...They are mind conditioned...
Add to this necessary logical tool in any debate the complex information we must understand to speak about anything in a wise way...Do you think many people are able to do that?
For example...
In audio experience the ONLY important CONCRETE experimental discovery i ever make is acoustic science...
Believe me or not there is almost no thread about acoustic in audiogon...
Some ask how do we manage our room yes... But it is relatively rare specific questions compared to the vast other unimportant one and a question asking for very complex matter...
But no one created here an acoustic theoretical and practical information thread save me few days ago... Not much interest manifested..
Think about that...
Acoustic is the most important fact for audiophile experience, not the name of your Dac, turn table amplifier or speaker designer..
Between the acoustical settings of the recording room of a musical show and your ears it is not your specific audio system the most important factor but the specific state of your speakers/room relation to your specific ears...
The 2 most inportant factors are acoustical : the recording room and your own room...
Then what are small room acoustic power and means?
Audio experience is mostly an experimental and correlative process between the perceiving ears and the control of the gear and ESPECIALLY the specific acoustic control of the speakers /room relation... It is a science based experimental PROCESS between a subjectivity and some objective factors.., Not a static state after buying some gear...It is a personal history of audio discoveries not some subjective impression only...
It is not because someone is PLEASED by what he just bought that it means that "ultimately audio is subjective"... Save for someone who sells something..
I prefer to sell creativity...and intelligence... At no cost...Save thinking process time...
Instead of attacking you like you did for my system/room, i only argued with LOGIC without never putting doubts with innuendo about the quality of your products, i only claim that anybody can create a room at no cost...You only made innuendo about my system to eliminate my claim with Ad hominem argument... You never used any sound argument save your empty mantra: "audio is subjective" which is not even wrong , it is an half truth, then something worse than a lie...
And dont point to my virtual page , everybody is able to see it by himself, i put the images myself there... I am not ashamed of myself at all...
He is the greatest defender of " pure subjectivity" since Kierkegaard time...
😁😊
i am just disapointed that this defense of " free subjectivity " come not from a great philosopher only, like he seems to be, but also from a seller of electronical products....
It is my first time on audiogon i see someone calling a gang behind him instead of giving any argument...
I will stop speaking because he dont like my silly room , it was his ONLY argument with my posts, , then i am afraid he will come with his gang to demolish it... 😊😋😁
It remind me of school bullying...
very pathetic and very comical like a charlie chaplin sketch...perhaps more like the three stooges...I cannot decide...the balance between pathetic or comical will determine the esthetical choice of the movie where he will put himself in...
I never said anything against Ted Denney products..
I only post in the threads he initiate like i did in any interesting subject thread in audio here, and i was even interested to discuss with him because some of his products included Shuman generators and some electronical way to modify the acoustic of a room, why not? I myself used a grid of small tuned S.G.
All people dont own a dedicated audio rom like me and anyway to do the same thing that his product did to the room at no cost i must use no esthetical devices and a great numbers of these devices made with discarded materials ... My audio room look like a "mad scientist laboratory"...
But when i posted something about acoustic in his thread instead of discussing in a gentleman way he make inuendo to ridiculizing my virtual page...Not one argument save the look of my room...
This give us an idea of what kind of persona is hidden by the company he represent...
I dont condemn his products i never listen really to them... I condemn the childish method of this dude...
I dont want anything more to do with someone like that...
Audiogon is supposed to be a place for anyone, even sellers are welcome, but not for bully...his method with me was ad hominem attack... I am not the first it seems ... I just see the story here of Jerry123, it is difficult for me not to trust his side of the story knowing how mr. Denney operate...
Then this has nothing to do about the value or not of his product...
It is a small paranoiac chidish bully for me who will never apologize for anything about anything... Nothing else...I think he perceive me and my method like a menace to his enterprise thats all...Then i will never trust him for anything...
Thats all.there is to say for me...
By the way people who discuss with me know that i use arguments and some knowledge...I dont bully or attack ad hominem... And i can admit if i am wrong and i apologize...But when i am not wrong i dont back...And i can proved my point ....
@mahgister you’re one of the lads in here, few are foolish enough to argue with you.
By the way i am not a measuring obsessive audiophile ...Objectivist or subjectivist position ALONE make no sense to me...
Designing a product or learning how to embed the gear mechanically electrically or acoustically imply a PROCESS of CORRELATIVE exhange between a judging subjectivity and some standard or non standard measuring process in engineering or some objective disposition and measured device in acoustic..
For example : an Helmholtz resonators must be put on the exact right spot, this can be meassured, by ears or by computations, and the design of the H.R. must be calculated ideally by some equations relating volume, neck, and cross ratio to determine his frequencies absorption and diffusion optimally... This is only an example ...
But this illustrate the fact that in audio in our evolutive personal history if we are not PASSIVE CONSUMERS ONLY but also audiophile who created listening experiments like myself, objective settings and measures go hand in hand with subjective biases and judgement.... A bias is not only a negative factor to eliminate it can be also a positively acquired experience by the subject...
Like i already said subjectivity win at the last moment yes, but its only saying a common place fact.... Any subjective judgement cannot have a greater value than the sum total of all his experience in objective experiments about audio... if not audio will be meaningles tastes without any foundation in reality... ...I hate obsessive measurbators who think that a dac sound quality can only be measured , but i dont approve consumers buying obsession who chase their tail and call that their taste... Mechanical control of vibration for example like acoustic is not based only on subjective impressions but on exact fine tuning of some load by exact numbers or by ears... but it is an objective process...
In acoustic subjectivity and objective measures goes together.... There is even a field connected to physical acoustic calleed psycho-acoustic where subjective impression must be correlated to objective measures...
Not because i doubt that there may be a positive modification if i did it .
Not at all... The same thing with cables... I did change my cables few times and always detected a difference postive and negative in some case...
Then why i did not want to change my fuses and my cables for better one?
First i dont need to invest money in my system now i am completely happy, no small change will make me happier...
Simple, second, the control of the general noise floor of the house, the control of resonance negative impact and vibrations on speakers especially and the passive treatment of the room with a balance between absorbing surface and reflecting and diffusive one on small room make together a greater differences than any fuses or cables for sure...NO COMPARISON HERE...Saying the opposite is ignorance...
Add to that in a dedicated room a mechanical control of the room like i did, to adapt the room to the speakers specific workings drivers and tweeters and to your specific ears , the improvement i gained is not a small improvement at all, it is a complete transformation of the speakers/room potential which reach their peak working possibility TOGETHER...
Listening experiments where the objective side of sound , what is measurable in the acoustic settings and in the devices used, which are Helmholtz resonators and diffusers, are being CORRELATED for my specific EARS and tastes... Here the tuning is a process where subjectivity and objectivity MEET TOGETHER... Subjectivity rules yes but any king need a kingdom , some objective ground... this is my point... It is not simple to understand? Then forget all those who vouch by measure ONLY or those who vouch by subjective taste ONLY... They are IGNORANT of acoustic...They want to sell your their TOOLS to measure in the first case, or they want to sell your their products in the second case... I sell creativity....
Then i will never bought anything costly, cables or fuses or any costly upgrade...
Then i recommend to people and advise them before buying anything costly, to adress mechanical vibrations and the acoustic, at least passive material treatment if they are in a living room, and i advise them to look if possible for ways to decrease the electrical noise floor of the house...
To be wise never UPGRADE gear, if your basic gear is already basically relatively good, BEFORE working with the control of the electrical, mechanical and especially acoustic embeddings...If you dont do it, you will never know the S.Q. potential of what you already own, prematurely selling it to upgrade before the right moment in time...
It is not worth the money to invest on some secondary item of a car BEFORE upgrading the tires before a race.... Acoustic is the tires and the road itself in this metaphor...
Then i dont say that "tweaks" dont work, most did, i replicated some of them..
But the improvement is SMALL compared to acoustic not even on the same level...
is it not simple?
Thanks for your kind words toward me...My best to all and everyone, no person excluded...
Acoustic is the sleeping princess and all the pieces of gear are the 7 working dwarves...NOTHING MORE....
I appreciate the posts from mahgister, basically saying you can treat your room for low cost, rather than invest in component upgrades. I wonder what can be done in a combined living / listening room, like mine.
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