It's great that this gets a mention. One thing I have also learnt in hifi is that nothing beats experience. And it doesn't help being dogmatic about things, especially when that dogmatic opinion only comes from reading other perspectives on hifi, not experience. And there is a lot of that. It's easy for people to hide behind the virtual wall and say what they want with no filter or consequence. I am pretty sure those that don't show these virtues online, in almost all cases won't behave like this in person. So my motto is, would I word the comment or thought in the same way in person as I would online?
3 Ingredients to a Healthy Audio Community
Through my own personal audio journey, I have learned to value and hopefully embody 3 qualities: humility, respect, and a sense of community. I hope to inspire dialogue about how our lovable audio community can be more like a (functional) family, and less like NBA players talking trash (no offense intended to basketball lovers).
I've learned the hard way that most, if not all, of my preconceived notions about audio have been wrong. For instance, let's talk about cables. I used to think that they had no bearing on sound quality. But, when I actually tried cables that used scientifically researched and proven technology, I had to admit that they do in fact make a huge difference. What I needed was to approach new technology with more humility, realizing that my opinions may be wrong and that other's thoughts and experiences are just as valid as my own. In fact, others' who have actually tried something that I have not have a much more valid perspective than I do, since they have first-hand experience and I do not.
There's a word for this attitude -- respect, that's right. I definitely need more of it, especially online where I don't actually know anyone else and they don't know me. I struggle with this one. If I feel someone is wrong, I want to hop right in and call them out. But, I don't know that person. I don't know if they are new to audio, or an experienced engineer. I don't know their qualifications or experiences. And, I don't know what they're going through in their life. So, who the hell am I to say that they are wrong and/or that I am right?
If I can nail the above two character qualities, I can help contribute to our community of music and audio lovers and not just leech off of it. If we all work to exhibit more humility and respect, we can forget about who's right or wrong, and just focus on helping each other enjoy what we have, and hope to have. For ultimately, this hobby is not about correctness but about emotionally engaging with and enjoying music, both individually and collectively.
I've learned the hard way that most, if not all, of my preconceived notions about audio have been wrong. For instance, let's talk about cables. I used to think that they had no bearing on sound quality. But, when I actually tried cables that used scientifically researched and proven technology, I had to admit that they do in fact make a huge difference. What I needed was to approach new technology with more humility, realizing that my opinions may be wrong and that other's thoughts and experiences are just as valid as my own. In fact, others' who have actually tried something that I have not have a much more valid perspective than I do, since they have first-hand experience and I do not.
There's a word for this attitude -- respect, that's right. I definitely need more of it, especially online where I don't actually know anyone else and they don't know me. I struggle with this one. If I feel someone is wrong, I want to hop right in and call them out. But, I don't know that person. I don't know if they are new to audio, or an experienced engineer. I don't know their qualifications or experiences. And, I don't know what they're going through in their life. So, who the hell am I to say that they are wrong and/or that I am right?
If I can nail the above two character qualities, I can help contribute to our community of music and audio lovers and not just leech off of it. If we all work to exhibit more humility and respect, we can forget about who's right or wrong, and just focus on helping each other enjoy what we have, and hope to have. For ultimately, this hobby is not about correctness but about emotionally engaging with and enjoying music, both individually and collectively.
42 responses Add your response
Treat others as you would be treated. I'm pretty sure that means treat everyone decent. I don't think it means, I don't mind being attacked,so I'm going to attack everyone. That being said,we don't have to bow down to everyone's opinion. However, it also means that we can all have different views without clobbering each other over the head. No matter how right you think you may be,you'll NEVER earn anybody's respect when you act like the playground bully. Life doesn't give out participation awards. There are winners and losers,wealthy,poor. I'm pretty sure everyone has knowledge in various areas other than audio. Put yourself in the novice category in another hobby. Ask a question there. How would you like to learn? Would you like to learn like an adult,or treated like some inferior life form? Life can certainly be harsh,no doubt about it. Once in a while, wouldn't it be nice to act civilized? |
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@dinov Ok, I interpreted "all" incorrectly. My apologies. Let me ask you this as a thought experiment -- if there was a slim device you could just hang on your wall and just activate with a remote and it would play music as you have it now -- would you wish for your stereo to be completely gone? Imagine that every musical experience you have now with your rig would still be there, but there would be no more cables, power cords, amps, turntables, etc. and no room treatments, etc. Would that be a no-loss kind of transition? Run the same question on the technologies of your kitchen. Just a replicator that creates whatever you want. Happy to get rid of everything related to food for a panel on the wall? This thought experiment will be answered differently by different people. For me, the gear is a means to an end (the music) but is *also* an end in itself. I like cleaning it, I like maintaining it, and I like adjusting it. |
@dinov its not *all* about the music for me. I’m an audiophile. It’s also - also - about sound, and gear, and tweaking, and experimenting, and discussing, too. “It’s all about the music” is a platitude meant to be a conversation-ender. Cf. “Gourmet” vs “Gourmand” if the difference isn’t manifest to you. |
Daveman2, I agree with nearly all of your post and applaud you for posting it. In the same regard many people have vastly different personality traits on a forum than they do in "real life". This borders on mendacity or some absence of reality. But I keep coming back because the good far outweighs the bad. As a corollary, I can't imagine how difficult it must be having to go through the formative years in this (larger world) type of environment. We got it good...and should be grateful. 'Nuff said Regards, barts |
Unfortunately the way people interact with each other is imbedded in their DNA. Not everyone is a nice person. What one person hears as an insulting, abrasive response probably seems normal to that person dishing it out. Some are not aware they do it. Others boost their ego/superiority by being brash. It's how they go through life. Any further suggestion of censoring is not a solution. That's a slippery slope we seem to be gravitating towards. Just ignore these types of posts if you don't like them but by all means let them say it. |
hilde451,817 posts04-29-2021 11:24amThere is no human hearing without human perception, @dletch2 Hearing is a perception. I used the words total human perception. Subtle but different. If you are not willing to reduce the perception to just that of hearing, then the claims you make are not exclusive to hearing. |
I’ll say it again, as it is true and also quite funny: Every time a serious and political centric thread breaks out on the ’gon, there is actually peace. Everyone is mostly polite and overall--- agreement tends to break out. Whereas with audio threads.... it’s war, war, war... on all channels all the time.. It may be due to politics being literally more verifiable and real, more definable, more of a data set to work with, more known and established, etc...... vs... what we deal with in in audio, re human hearing vs the hardware's engineering specification and understandings of such, as a related pair. |
humility, respect, and a sense of community Is it humility to not accept that you, like everyone else on the planet is biased? Is it respectful to not accept your inherent biases and use the results of that lack of acceptance to disrespect others? Is the community served when you refuse to accept your bias, yet proselytize your personal views that have never been tested without bias? Humility does not mean accepting everyone's views as valid, when those views are clearly colored by personal bias they refuse to accept. I respect your right to an opinion or view, I don't have to respect the one you have. The community is not served when people viciously promote personal views, not tested for bias, as absolute truth. What many people here want is C, C, C. Conformity, conformity, conformity. When they don't get it, they insult you, your system, or your hearing, usually knowing nothing about any of them. Humility, respect, and community are nice words. Cults are all about respect and community too, and members are expected to have humility, at least where it concerns the self appointed gods. |
daveman2.....This thread wouldn’t have anything to do with that dumpster fire of a “discussion” about rap from last weekend, would it? I’m on several other forums focused on audio and non-audio hobbies and they each do a much much much better job keeping politics out of the discussion than Audiogon does. Why do they do that? Because absolutely nothing at all is added to a discussion of, say, turntables, home brew beer, vintage radio restoration, or mycology by having people flex their political views. Yeah, people disagree all the time and get in each other’s faces about what thing is better than another thing but no one is ramming a political flag down someone else’s throat. How do they do that? Community rules, a user agreement, and active moderators. On Audiogon you’d get “But muh rights and freedoms! You can’t tell me what to do or say!” To which one might reasonably reply “Well, you’re on a privately owned and operated site with a user agreement that you agreed to but can’t seem to abide by. Stop being a jerk.” And then someone would say If that happens, we get turned into a burning dumpster of political correctness that is flying down the highway at juggernaut speed, killing all in it’s correctness path. A cloaked vehicle to do harm via. A communofacist agenda rockin’ machine that no one can touch, for ill or for better. Mostly ill. One of the issues is that Audiogon has very broad definition of what kind of content can be moderated. Also, some posters seem to be exempt from moderation. Perhaps they’re actually moderators who are also interested in promoting their political agendas, saving the audiophile world from “cultural Marxism” one expensive component at a time. |
@teo_audio Retort is require to correct problems, and if it’s all virtue signalling and consequence.... then we get killed for raising the correct questions. I think this is right, and if I understand it it means -- We don't want "virtue signaling" -- we want virtue; that is, self-control in how we signal, avoiding ad hominem attacks. We want "retort" in the sense of logical rebuttal, done with respect and civility. Finding the median? The arguer really has two jobs, logical and emotional. The logical job is to present the argument in ways that highlight the facts and stakes as they see them and to push back against claims which seem false or exaggerated in ways that simply present counter facts or demur. The emotional job is the one featured in that scene with Luke and Yoda -- to look into oneself and reflect on whatever makes one want to strike out in anger; and then tame that part of oneself. It's the bigger challenge for all of us, so perhaps having a bit of tolerance for other's foibles (aka "humor") is the key ingredient, after all. |
A+ to daveman2.....Mostly, this forum is very informative. No two people will have the same opinion about everything. But, for me, I like to hear from others about their preferences and experience with music and equipment. Have gotten some valuable information about technical issues. So... Thanks to all who provide input in a constructive manner. No need for unrelated opinions such as political, religious, or philosophical statements from those who can't find something good on Netflix. Good job Dave. |
^^ At the same time, if they have consequence, then virtue signalling enters the chat. If that happens, we get turned into a burning dumpster of political correctness that is flying down the highway at juggernaut speed, killing all in it’s correctness path. A cloaked vehicle to do harm via. A communofacist agenda rockin’ machine that no one can touch, for ill or for better. Mostly ill. Retort is require to correct problems, and if it’s all virtue signalling and consequence.... then we get killed for raising the correct questions. So, good luck finding the median. |
@daveman2 I completely agree with your outlook. One thing I’ve learned by asking for similar kinds of civility is that some people are constitutionally unable to give it. I’m trying now just to ignore those people or posts. Just talk past them (i.e., just reply to earlier responses on the thread) or just not respond. FWIW, you can watch the responses to this post to see who takes it seriously, who rebukes it, and who makes fun of it. That’s a big clue as to who to be on guard against and/or who to ignore or take with a grain of salt (or shot of vodka). |
A beautiful outlook and a reminder that this is a hobby and not a political debate forum. I’m often reminded just how much I don’t know when it comes to audio so how can I tell anyone what’s right and what’s wrong. you mentioned cables. I also believe they make a difference at least in my system. I also know two highly respected engineers who believe that cables make no difference. I own and love the amps and speakers that they make and yes, they have made me feel like an idiot because I hear differences in cables that they don’t. |
