2017 ‘Keeper’ speakers under - $25K

After 52 pairs of speakers:
- DeVore O/96 - with the appropriate room and matched electronics
- Second the Vandy Trio with Vandy subs - sublime
- For Quad lovers - listen to the Soltanus Acoustics ESLs - you will be blown away
- Davone Grande

Many others (including some amazing vintage speakers such as Yamaha NS-1000/2000, ADS 1590/1530, Sony SS-m9, etc) to list but the above are the ones I would keep.

Hello, blindjim.

I won't try to dissuade you from the Poseidons, but I'd like to direct your attention to the new Daedalus Apollo speakers. I spent a good five hours comparing the Argos, Poseidons, and Apollos in Lou's workshop/showroom about a month ago. After discussing my particular listening room characteristics, we decided the Apollos would best fit my needs with the Argos coming in a close second. The Apollos use the new 10" driver in in the three-way configuration common to the Muse and the Pan. 

I chose Apollos on the spot. I had spent the previous three years searching for 'the' pair of speakers. I'd come close a couple times, but with this pair I felt confident that I wouldn't fall out of love with them after a couple years. Until the Apollos came into my world, I had been inclined to settle for Salk Exotica speakers. I heard these at Axpona 2014, so I know how they sound. The Exoticas and the Apollos are similarly priced.

Next down on my list would be the AZ Crescendos, but their price tag is higher. 

Best of luck with your search.

Michael

@blindjim 
I took a few minutes to ready your answers to others questions above. I feel like I'm sorta in the same boat. I'd like to put together a new system as the one I'm using now is ten years old. Nothing wrong with it, but wouldn't mind a change either. 

I've been to the Show at Newport four years or so, the recent LAAS show, and many get-togethers at various dealers here in SoCal. I've heard systems from less than $10k total to well over a half a million large. And, in my price range, if I allow myself to dream and spend some of my savings, were several systems that just keep popping up as very good. Here they are:

Mbl - The Corona line. for $32k you can get an integrated, CD/DAC, and a pair of Mbl 126 speakers. I've heard a great number of Mbl electronics/speakers over the last four years and I can't get enough. I always sit in their room much much longer than any other room. And for some perspective, I've heard the Xtreme speakers, the 101E MkIIs, and others on down to their lower end. When I heard the Corona line I had just been listening to the 101E MkIIs with Noble Line electronics and a server for front end for some time. I was amazed at how close the bottom of the line Corona Line system sounded - very close to the  101E MkIIs with much more expensive electronics. Mbl has had a huge affect on me and they have, for me anyway, voiced all their gear to work seamlessly together. Few audio companies make a full line of gear but Mbl is amazing. But there is another system I've really liked..........

ARC LS28/VT80 RefCD9 source with Wilson Audio Sabrina speakers. Yes, I do understand that they are two different sounds, the Mbl and the ARC/Wilson sound. But they both make such nice music. I've also heard the Sabrina with the ARC GSi75 integrated and found that experience very nice as well. Same dealer, different day so no comment on which was best. They were both glorious.

After hearing a lot of gear, I keep coming back to these two systems. I've heard other systems that were very nice, but none that bring me the emotion that these two do.

Finally, and I guess to my point, when you can hear a system set up in total and purchase it that way, you know what you are gonna get. It may not sound exactly the same at home as it did at the dealer, but you do have a good idea that the synergy you are hearing can be brought home. And that is what so many are looking for, synergy among electronics and speakers. I found it in spades with the systems noted above.

Have fun!! 

How about Sonus FABER Elissa SE

Used Magico Q3 or S3 mk2 jump on them ASAP!!!!!!

If I had an extra 25K sitting around I would probably buy a pair of Legacy Audio Aeris... Of course, on the other hand, I have been completely happy with my 11K Focus SE's.... 

@cb5300, your simple phrase "completely happy" nails it. Thank-you -- simplicity above all things.
May I add my own thoughts? (Too late to object; I've already begun.)
Speakers are great big huge, heavy, room-dominating things. Good ones with the best-built drivers, cabinetry and xovers ought to occupy 70% of your hardware budget. Given their weight, they are not easy to sell, either, so make your first shot the best one:  The trucker's going to want his vig if you decide you don't like 'em. By all means, don't purchase a pair your "Significant Other" doesn't like the looks of, especially if he/she objects to sonic room treatments. Marital discussions are vital here.
There are, bless 'em, a number of U.S.-based builders of incredible speaks within the OP's budget. Much as I was a fan of my old Vanderseen 5AC carbons, they are overpriced because Dick plays the distribution network game. This is in no way intended to denigrate the Vandie sound or the integrity of his work. It's just because, at the dealer-level, you're paying double or triple of what it costs him to make his products, plus whatever he has to kick down to TAS to get good write-ups. Any component-maker who can afford a four-colour spread in TAS or one of the other snooty audiophile rags is not putting that money into my speakers.
I have, and will continue to, plug Tyler Acoustics for speaks and Don Sachs for pre- and power-amp builds. Straight from the guy who hand-built them to you, and they'll take your call on a Sunday afternoon. I'm not on either's payroll  or commission-- I am just "completely happy" with what I've got. Should Ty come up with a better driver, or Don with a better-sounding capacitor set, I'll likely consider their advice. A few Franklins to experiment with their opinions beats the 2-Large you'll need to return a pair of Vandies.

Thread drift here, so please be patient. Somebody up above posted a link to some Dunlavy speaks in need of re-habbing. (Not interested in buying them) but it got me thinking about rehabilitating speakers in general. The foam surrounds used even by McIntosh back in the days are toast, but when you get 'em fixed up, which art I have mastered, what's the best grille cloth to replace the old nicotine-stained scratched-up originals? Thoughts? Or a thread I'm missing here. Tnx, Dave

Absolutely only one choice, as cb5300 suggests, nothing compares to the Legacy Audio Aeris!

Many speakers out there actually.... but for overall quality/sound/price???

 - Nearly all XTZ speakers, but especially the Master M2, Divine Alpha and Divine 100.33.

 - and Tannoy Prestige series under the 25K line, and the Tannoy XT8F and XT6F.

Most valuable, definitive and absolute choice for overall sound quality under 25k is the XTZ Divine Alpha, no hesitation. You have to go over 25k to better it, for me!! Ridiculously good and beautiful for the money. 

Lowthers were mentioned earlier and I have to agree! They will suck you in and take you on a wonderful trip when implemented properly. Charney Audio has created such a speaker(s) with the Companion (DX55 or DX65) and the Concerto (DX4) tractrix designed rear loaded horns.

Full disclaimer, I have know Charney for about 11 years. Both our lives had gotten very busy and we lost touch for a while. In August of 2015 he called  me about the speakers he was building. Sent me a link to his site and 2 days later I was in his listening room. Floored is an understatement! The top to bottom coherency was amazing! Emotional involvement was of the charts! I got pissed at him since I now had to sell off my current system and obtain a pair of his creations.

Last Fall I picked up a pair of the Maestro and have been very pleased since! The Maestro utilizes an Omega RS7 (6.5") driver in a slightly bigger cabinet than the Companion. In my room, 11 x 15 x 8 the Maestro play deep and wide. Current configuration is  CR Electronics Design Woodham 2 300b integrated and Decware modified ZDSD with Antelope Audio Live clock. We felt that a SS dac is the way to go with the Maestro and I have no desire to upgrade or change anything! Well maybe a good transformer coupled preamp will be in my future but for now I'm fine with system set up! No need for a sub! The drivers are very fast and have yet to find a sub that can keep up. In my room the Maestro has decent output into the mid 30's which is plenty deep enough for me. I tried with past systems to get deeper bass, even with room correction they never sounded "right".

Check Charney out and if possible make an appt for a listen...

 

Done. Hands down the best. Don't waste your time with anything else until you've heard them! 

http://ryanspeakers.com/Products/Products/R630.html

Firstonetallguy > Martin Logan Expression ESL 13a electrostatic and dynamic hybrid speakers.

Blindjim > please forgive the delay. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
Stats have a huge following here and with several of my friends. I, on the other hand have a substantial issue with panels. Why? Beats me. Perhaps the space and power requirements, but mostly its their lack of kick you in the stomach or chest dynamics, and bass extension I’ve noticed so common to them.
In nearly all other areas of the audio nut spec sheet for sound and sonics, they excel. Well, the sweet spot often gets tiny.

Maybe someday I’ll grow up and buy a pair of them or Vandy’s. the latter will take longer to overcome as there exists a small personal gripe


Thomasgc > Wilson Sabrina these speakers are something special!

Blindjim > Hi. Sorry for the getting back delay. Thanks. Saw these online but feel a slightly larger speaker is preferred as the room size is gonna grow from its present dimensions as well. .


suncoast_audio > blindjim - you may want to audition KEF Blade 2's.

Mike, please forgive the delay.thanks so very much.
Blindjim > If you don’t mind, PM me please.
RE Kef I’ve been interested in Kef for years but have no exp there.


Snopro > If you like SET Amps, then Hornings are very nice and no subs needed.

Blindjim > please forgive the delay. I sincerely appreciate the second note for horns. My concern there is once more, probably all in my head, and a lack of exp with them. If your input was added after reading my last post herein, it is more than appreciated.


Harrylavo > Used high-end Thiels, and especially the 7.2.

Blindjim > sorry about being late here. Thanks much. That’s not a bad idea at all. Again, their performance improves with escalated power as I understand it.

Blindjim > Come to think of it, many of the upper end speakers do their best with more than 100 – 200wpc… as I’ve read or heard personally.


Skanda > Raidhos

Blindjim > Tanks. Never heard of these what so ever. Haven’t even seen an article about them yet.

FYI
The jaw met floor sound that haunts me, or did haunt me for years was the first time I heard a Thor TA 1000 line stage pre + a pair of Thor TA 30 monos driving VSA VR4JRs sourced by a then popular tube CDP from off shore and Audience spkr wires.
I found out later on, one simply can not duplicate the sound of a certain system, with different gear. It can however be closely replicated closely just not identically.

Along the way, I found out I really enjoyed the EL 34 amps, and a SET – like sound…. Though not 100%. Not on cone spkrs with normal sensitivities any way.

In all, I have to admit I like the sound Tubes deliver. I don’t like the bottom end most tube amps provide with yet again, spkrs with low imps or below 90db sens.

Then and this is based on exp only, the answer is to forgoe spkrs with std db ratings and low imp ratings, and seek out 95db and up spkrs with easier imp loads, right? Right. Well, maybe right.

My former Sonata . IIIs had reportedly 93DB and ‘appox’ 8ohm imp loads. A pair of past Dodd monos running Ultralinear was an enjoyable every time setup despite the musical genre... Mostly.

I’ve been unable to figure out precisely how to get a tube power train to drive ‘what ever’ spkrs within sensible financial constraints, that can accommodate every sort of music. Without adding a sub. Albeit, I’ve seen subs on systems that cost lots of $$$ with speakers that are very ‘spensive too.

I’m certain the ‘C’ word is soon to shove its ugly face into the formula too. And I despise being pushed around by ‘compromise’, although it’s a salient and recurring factor in these endeavors. At least it is in my world.

As such, I’m thinking SS or likewise amp (S) for the main rig going forward.

I am liking what I read about the Vienna Acoustic ‘Musics’, albeit not terribly the power needed to really make them sit up and sing.

As well, on a lesser dollar scale, a tube Integrated, or stereo amp or monos and a pair of decent or high Eff monitors for a secondary system in a smaller room.

I think these two approaches weed out a lot of the ‘C’ word from either effort. Not all, but more than a fair bit.
Hope this helps more.

You mentioned you have a personal gripe with Vandersteen. May I, respectfully, ask?
I mentioned the Treo to you earlier, but after reading more of what you require, I think the Vandy Quattro Wood CT with 2Wq subs might meet your need. They don't require large or expensive amps to sing, With the built in bass adjustment along with the subs, you can perfectly dial in the bottom end for just about any room. And, just my opinion, I think they would give you that "take your breath away" appeal you are looking for. All under 20k. I do admit there are a lot of very nice choices here to choose from.
Cheers,
Tim

No tubes needed on latest Wilson's with new soft dome tweeter. It's very extended and smooth. Not exotic which is fine with me. 
Also top solid state amps are so good that that's not an issue as well. I love my Yvettes and I'm not some big Wilson fan. They just do it right from the wood crates to impeccable build quality. Had Revels before and think highly of them as well. 

@blindjim I think you can get into a set of Classic Audio Loudspeakers model T3 for the budget you've mentioned.

The speakers are easy to set up in most rooms. I have them about 6 inches from the wall behind them and they image very nicely. You don't need a subwoofer (they easily shake the building with only a few watts as they have dual 15" woofers in each cabinet) and they are easily driven by tubes as they are 98 db and 16 ohms.

There are a number of options so you can upgrade the speaker over time. Mine are set up with field coil midrange drivers; the midrange employs a beryllium diaphragm that has its first breakup at about 35KHz; the speaker is seamless, very fast, smooth and revealing. 

Joseph Audio Perspective's.

Blindjim- it HAS been a long time, but I’ve learned some things along the way. I like tubes. A good tube system to my ears sounds like music, a good ss rig sounds like a good ss rig. So once that was settled, it means looking for tube-friendly speakers. The beauty of a high eff speaker is that it mates well with tubes AND it does not require horsepower size amps. That means you can use modest powered amps that do not break the budget. The Thor EL-34s would be great, but if you have not heard the Classic Audio/Atma combo that Ralph Karsten demos at shows like RMAF, you should. A pair of M-60s produced rock concert level volume in a very, very large room not the little converted overnight rooms, but one of the very good sized conference rooms. That allows you to keep your amp budget down and put more $ into the speakers. I used to own M-60s but let them get away (my bad), but now I have a fully loaded S-30 that does just fine in my 14x 23 room. The Hornings use a modified Lowther for the mids, a wave guide tweeter, and multiple smaller (maybe 8") woofers in a modern slim tower cabinet. The Classic Audio speakers use horns with conventional very large woofers. To my ears, no shout in either one.

If you prefer the VAC sound over an OTL, you can get a used Ren 30/30 for about $3-4K that will give you all the dBs you will ever need with high 90 dB speakers. I mention these two brands because I have used them both with 95/96 dB speakers and thought they worked very well, and you will hear only the best comments on the level of service VAC and Atma-sphere provide.

thinking more about this...

maybe put $13k ito speakers and $12k into a new room...

Glad to see the Focal Sopra on the short list. I went to listen to Maggies (I like detail) I listened to the maggies and wasn't as excited as I wanted to be. Then I listened to the Focal Sopra 2's. I knew I was getting these!!! Absolutely loved them. Got electrostatic detail from a dynamic speaker with bass. I was a Dynaudio guy (still am ...kept my Contour 3.3's but sold my Sapphires) but these Sopra's are just so detailed/lifelike that they took over as my main speakers. My room is smaller than yours (approx. 18 x 12' ) and  wondered if I should have waited for the Sopra 3's but was told the 2's would be better for my room. I would go for the Sopra 3's in your room. If you buy something before hearing the Sopra 3's then my advice would be not to go listen to them as you may have regrets!  
Good luck with this endless hobby!

blindjim

I am headed quickly into the sunset, retirement is calling, but would live to chat. Have some great ideas for you. 

www.soundsrealaudio.com

Sorry, I simply did not see the second page. 8-)) sheesh
My gratitude for all the input herein is immense. Thanks all if I miss someone..

Chances are quite high that if or when I’m able to launch the new squeaker enterprise, I’ll soon be moving, so the room will be either similar or hopefully, larger by some. Likely not by a lot, but some. Hopefully wider, about the same in depth. Can’t say at all about ceilings.

My expectations are that during my travels, I’ll walk into a room and the sound will pin my jaw to the floor, it will be within reach financially, and I’ll hand over my plastic or go to a local bank and get the bread..


sancho22 > After 52 pairs of speakers:
DeVore O/96 - with the appropriate room and matched electronics
- Second the Vandy Trio with Vandy subs - sublime

Blindjim > What is the correct or merely a great elec match for Devor’s?


Mresseguie > I won't try to dissuade you from the Poseidons, but I'd like to direct your attention to the new Daedalus Apollo speakers.

Blindjim > Daedalus is merely on the short list of imagined choices. Nothing is set to stone. Logistics there might be a limiter.
Thanks for the nod to Apollos.
Michael > “Next down on my list would be the AZ Crescendos, but their price tag is higher.”

jim > again, distance or availability with any or all of those listed here or on my own list, could be concerns. I seriously doubt I’ll purchase ANY speakers without hearing them. Period. Not at some of these prices.


pokey77 > I feel like I'm sorta in the same boat. I've heard systems from less than $10k total to well over a half a million.
1. Mbl - The Corona line. for $32k you can get an integrated, CD/DAC, and a pair of Mbl 126 speakers. I've heard a great number of Mbl electronics/speakers over the last four years and I can't get enough. I always sit in their room much much longer than any other room.
2. ARC LS28/VT80 RefCD9 source with Wilson Audio Sabrina speakers. they both make such nice music.
3. Heard the Sabrina with the ARC GSi75 integrated and found that experience very nice.

Blindjim > thanks loads. See above for feedback on what and when I’ll reach for the wallet.


Ebm > Used Magico Q3 or S3 mk2 jump on them ASAP!!!!!!

Blindjim > we’ll see. Thanks much.


cb5300 > I would probably buy a pair of Legacy Audio Aeris... Of course, on the other hand, I have been completely happy with my 11K Focus SE's....

blindjim > I’ve given more than some thought to the Legacy’s.


deepee99 > … speakers ought to occupy 70% of your hardware budget.

Blindjim > tanks for the input. sorry. 70% is far too high IMHO.


deepee99 > speaks in need of re-habbing

blindjim > check. I have a pair I pray I can send back and get completely re-done up in Jacksonville. 11 years ago they sold for about $4K. just some very nice sounding 100lb. towers. They eat watts.


bassdude2 > Legacy Audio Aeris

blindjim > they intimidate me. They could even be smarter.


Hddg > XTZ Divine Alpha, no hesitation

Blindjiom > tanks for stopping by.


rodge827 > Lowthers

blindjim > very informative and much appreciated. I’ve always been astonished at what a single driver can do from their reports. I’ve never heard one.


mr_m > the Vandy Quattro Wood CT with 2Wq subs might meet your need. They don't require large or expensive amps to sing, With the built in bass adjustment along with the subs, you can perfectly dial in the bottom end for just about any room. Cheers,

blindjim > thanks Tim. Doubtless, somewhere along the line I’ll run into a pair of these, so we’ll see. The ‘grief’ was a minor issue but not handled well at all.


4425 > No tubes needed on latest Wilson's with new soft dome tweeter. It's very extended and smooth. Not exotic which is fine with me.
- Had Revels before and think highly of them as well.

Blindjim > interesting. I always found former WAS units dry or overly hard with leading edges of notes, and felt in nearly every case it was a setup or synergy issue given their popularity.


Atmosphere > I think you can get into a set of Classic Audio Loudspeakers model T3 for the budget you've mentioned. The speakers are easy to set up in most rooms. I have them about 6 inches from the wall behind them and they image very nicely. You don't need a subwoofer (they easily shake the building with only a few watts as they have dual 15" woofers in each cabinet) and they are easily driven by tubes as they are 98 db and 16 ohms.

Blindjm > that is a compelling argument. Thank you very much. I can only say now as with all other advisories, we’ll see.


Swampwalker > I’ve learned some things along the way. I like tubes. A good tube system to my ears sounds like music, a good ss rig sounds like a good ss rig. So once that was settled, it means looking for tube-friendly speakers. The beauty of a high eff speaker is that it mates well with tubes AND it does not require horsepower size amps. That means you can use modest powered amps that do not break the budget. The Thor EL-34s would be great, but if you have not heard the Classic Audio/Atma combo that Ralph Karsten demos at shows like RMAF, you should. A pair of M-60s produced rock concert level volume in a very, very large room not the little converted overnight rooms, but one of the very good sized conference rooms. That allows you to keep your amp budget down and put more $ into the speakers. I used to own M-60s but let them get away (my bad), but now I have a fully loaded S-30 that does just fine in my 14x 23 room. The Hornings use a modified Lowther for the mids, a wave guide tweeter, and multiple smaller (maybe 8") woofers in a modern slim tower cabinet. The Classic Audio speakers use horns with conventional very large woofers. To my ears, no shout in either one.

If you prefer the VAC sound over an OTL, you can get a used Ren 30/30 for about $3-4K that will give you all the dBs you will ever need with high 90 dB speakers. I mention these two brands because I have used them both with 95/96 dB speakers and thought they worked very well, and you will hear only the best comments on the level of service VAC and Atma-sphere provide.

Blindjim > thanks Swamp…. Because I’m here but not all there, once the proposition of actually seeing High Eff speakers as the course, then comes the well, OK>.. horns… well then which ones? Which amps? Which style SET amps?
@@

I appear to be the only one in the crowd I know of that has used a tube preamp and tube monos as were the dodd EL34s @ 120wpc… maybe.
Running in ultralinear I had no gripes. A little wish for more of this or that, but in all, was pretty happy with the amp and spkr combo back then.. Put it this way, I sure regret having to sell the Dodds and Sonata IIIs due to some dregs of society and LEO response times..

Existing hesitations in dedicating myself to tubes and High Eff speakers solely, surround the genres of music I enjoy.

I used to like both kinds of music. Country and Western.

My tastes have matured some and have spread out like Georgia Cud-zoo. I’m all in on the likes of AC/DC to Zydego. I dig Ella and Hartman, holiday and turentine, Parker, Felonius, Classic rock, old school R&B, blues especially, and so many others. Even Fourplay, Spyro Gyra, big band jazz, pop, blues, and rock. Folk, alternative, and now am getting into symphonies, and eegad, perhaps opera, but don’t tell anyone .

So I want punch and drive when its called for and as well as imaging and accuracy when the source material provides for it.

Lastly, I’d want the speakers to look as traditional as possible. Not open baffled, or some Frakenstuff array. Mostly.

How much I’m willing to sacrifice my desires hangs on what is delivered, I suppose. I pray I’d not cut my nose off to spite my face and choose a lesser pair for esthetics over performance, if push came to shove.

I’ve no current spouse to assuage so it is my call flat out.

Huge thanks Swampwalker.


randy-11 > thinking more about this...

blindjim > see above on the ‘room’ aspect. It might well change too.


Gdhal > And in that case, he would still have enough for the Golden Ear Triton Reference :)

Blindjim > tanks. Never heard of those, but have now and its the ‘why’ of this topic. Cool.


2bz > I listened to the Focal Sopra 2's. I knew I was getting these!!! Absolutely loved them. Got electrostatic detail from a dynamic speaker with bass.
- Sopra's are just so detailed/lifelike that they took over as my main speakers. My room is smaller than yours (approx. 18 x 12' ) and wondered if I should have waited for the Sopra 3's but was told the 2's would be better for my room.

Blindjim > IIs are cheaper too.

- If you buy something before hearing the Sopra 3's then my advice would be not to go listen to them as you may have regrets! Good luck with this endless hobby!

Blindjim > lol. Nope. There’s an end. Many just don’t see it when they get there.


Soundsrealaudio > www.soundsrealaudio.com

Blindjim > thanks. Maybe so. I found out a while back, I don’t know everything. Problem is, I have to constantly remind myself of it.

I’ve had my OHM Ls that I’m listening to and thoroughly enjoying  right now since 1978.

Tekton Design's Ulfberhts would be perfect for you...

Well I can't stop myself. That means you should be very afraid. Here are the speaker components that would disqualify them. 

1. No metal tweeters
2. No ceramic drivers
3. No ribbon tweeters
4. No speakers made with MDF. ( chip board with a ton of glue ).
5. No tweeters that kick in below 4000 kz. Let them do what they are        supposed to do. High frequencies only. 
6.No big soul sucking crossovers. 
7. No big woofers. Too slow and flabby and not realistic sounding. 
8. No big speakers, big cabinets, way to much cabinet resonance.You don't by speakers to listen to the cabinet. At least I don't.

soundsrealaudio,

It appears to me you have accumulated a fair amount of audio myths in your criteria.

Mapman > I’ve had my OHM Ls that I’m listening to and thoroughly enjoying right now since 1978.

Blindjim > Good to hear from you. Sorry but I don’t quite get what ‘LS’ means.


333jeffery > Tekton Design's Ulfberhts would be perfect for you...

Blindjim > I’ll see what I can find on them.
I did see a very interesting note on a pair of spkrs I had never heard of resulting from this thread, so who knows? That, is the whole idea here. Explore new brands, types, etc. so a more thoughtful decision can be made.


Soundsrealaudio >Well I can't stop myself. That means you should be very afraid.
Here are the speaker components that would disqualify them…..

Blindjim > I’m only afraid of large hairy or finned creatures on the loose that can and or want to eat me alive. Well, that and Mother In Laws.

Looking at your list of no no for spkr builds I can only say wow. It sure does lessen the short list! I can’t help but wonder just how many people would oppose your concerns, or how many actually have bought, and or will continue to buy speakers with exactly one or more of your list of criteria to avoid. Adding them all together I’d guess over 90% of spkrs bought possess at least one item, perhaps more in that list.

I do appreciate the honesty or openness being demonstrated. Thanks. It might be best to have listed only the one or two speaker makers which indeed conform to your philosophies.

So, OK. Exactly who is making speakers that keep to your notions that land in the criteria of this thread, and sound great enough to keep forever?

Blindjim > Soundsrealaudio if you would please provide something of a list which adheres to your build and design ideologies, it would be appreciated. Thank you.

Dealers need to refrain from selling items directly on forums maybe advisable to PM directly.

Note: Raidhos are bought and sold more often than most speakers on audiogon. Their is a massive thread on this...Look it up.

Among other amp/speakers combinations I would want to listen Atma/Classic Audio, Ypsilon/Lansche, VAC and Allnic/ Focal Utopia, all MBL system, all Gryphon system, LAMM/Kharma.
None of this would be exactly inexpensive, but you want great sound, and if you are going to listen to big orchestra - that's tough.

Soundsrealaudio > if you would please provide something of a list which adheres to your build and design ideologies, it would be appreciated. Thank you.

Blindjim > well. OK.
What I want from a loudspeaker is what anyone wants going in, neutrality, accuracy, and when possible, for myself, a traditional build that presents its esthetic as more furniture than Star Wars-ish…. Again, if possible.

In this instance, looking for keeper Speakers, they should be full range and develop the entire bandwidth evenly and flat from 20 – 25Hz to well beyond human hearing. The sound should emanate cohesively and coherently as if from a single driver.

They should not be selective as to the type or amount of power required for them to produce their fullest voice. This aspect however appears to be perhaps the single most speculative aspect of speakers by and large. Speaker designs dictate very often how much power and occasionally what sort, is preferred.

In a perfect world, no speaker should ever require an amp to output more than 200wpc, and operate quite well on far, far, less. No one should be forced to sit in a ‘sweat lodge’ because their amps are running as ‘space heaters’ while driving loudspeakers.

Neither should the speakers force or imply biamping, or tri amping is required by including more than one set of binding posts to connect to power. Adding on secondary or tertiary binding posts makes a statement that gives me pause.

The speakers should play outside the confines of their cabinets. Cast a well defined sound stage and depict all images sseparated yet still woven into the recording duplicit with the original recording methodology and or venue in an orgainic or natural way. Sounds should be localized and specific enough that I don’t have to think if that is a clarinet or sax. Viola or violin. Mandolin or banjo.

What materials make up the speaker superstructure, its drivers or transducers, and its cross overs if employed, is none of my actual business. I could care less what goes into any speaker. If they could make speakers with bailing wire and chieckn feathers, duct tape and bear grease, it would suit me.

Of course, the seller and speaker maker could never ever divulge the materials they used to build them, if any of the above were included. Purely for self esteem issues. Mine, not theirs.

Ohnly how well it mates to the power train being used, its actual sonic presentation, esthetic, fit into the room and its cost per pair are my ultimate interest.

Hope that clears up my perfect speaker philosophy. Too bad there aren’t too many of those around. Speakers are always in some area, a compromise, if only marrginally. Usually, its cost.


dragon_vibe > Dealers need to refrain from selling items directly on forums maybe advisable to PM directly.
Note: Raidhos are bought and sold more often than most speakers on audiogon. Their is a massive thread on this...Look it up.

Blindjim > Agreed!! Dealers should add merely their experiences which are not solely based on what their inventory du jour conveys and is Germaine to the topic.
RE Raidhos
I’ve yet to read an article on these speakers that got my attention. I’m obviously not getting it on the Raidho bus.


Inna > None of this would be exactly inexpensive, but you want great sound, and if you are going to listen to big orchestra - that's tough.

Blindjim > some of those combos are shown on Youtube now. Especially the VAC + Focal Utopia match up. Albeit, these are ‘at shows’ arrangements with ultimate cabling and so forth connecting everything…. And of course, it’s a video, not anything like an ‘in person’ event would be like.

Symphonies are not yet my cup of jo. Now and then, but not too often. I do intend on getting into the classics soon. It’s a complicated genre IMO.

There are only so many works, BUT done by every orchestra and conductor imaginable.

It amuses me that electronic makers and speaker makers take the path of using ultra high priced this or that to show the abilities of their gear. Often using wires alone that cost six figures!! Racks, etc. few people can buy or will.

Speaker makers too hook up with front ends no one would likely use due to cost constraints.

IMHO… if electronics are indeed great… why then do they need the upmost level of cabling and speakers surrounding them? Same thing for speakers. If the frakin’ speakers are superior at their cost then why put $200K worth of elecs in front of them?

Why not merely use entry level gear if the speakers are so outstanding.

Why not use entry level or mid level speakers if the elecs are superior?

Sure, you wanna talk to those Cost No object people, then by all means do that in a separate room. Then have everyone in that room show their last years income tax returns Or maybe just their McClaren, Lambo Bugatti, or Tesla car keys to gain entry. Actual inventoried dealers not with standing.

I think, you have to decide in advance if you would be willing to deal with tube and hybrid amps.
Yes, listening to high end systems on youtube is an interesting activity that I myself engage in from time to time as well. If recorded by the same people, you can hear big differences. You need to have good headphones and preferably good external DAC too.

Aerial acoustics 10T or 20T, Egglestonworks Andra II or III, and Revel Salons 1 or 2! :)

I believe BW 802D3 is for me. 

Let me take the low road.

The most inexpensive choice whereby the question becomes "why would you sell these speakers, just keep them for life because they sound so good for the money"?

Magnepan MMGs = $599. I have them and will keep them for life. They are just too good and too much of a value to let go.

I personally was the guy looking for the best sound under 25k too.  I auditioned sooooo many speakers.  I went crazy over the course of a few years.  I ended up with a  speaker I never would audition in the past.  I got Vandersteen Quatro's  (after a year or more with Treo's while I saved money).

I feel it's their best value speaker. I put it up against still competition in the 35k and under range like the new Paradigm 9H (also a semi active) and the bigger Wilson's, the Magico S3 for around 30k, B&W and Sonus Faber to name just a few.

I felt it was the most coherent speaker.  Sounded like the point source speakers I auditioned and it had the best tonality, pace/timing and rhythm.  It just did things correctly.  As I bring in better components, I hear the differences (good and bad) in spades.  I'm in shock as how good things sound in my room how with the tunable bass.  I now realize how important it is to be able to tune the bass in my room.  Bass is the most expensive part of the chain for all products and to have ability to tune is sweet.  I have heard the digital correctable speakers and it's nice, but I still can hear it in the chain.  I don't hear the analog type of correcting that Vandersteen employs.  There was another manufacturer who does something similar in analog and not digital and I didn't hear any problems there either.  

So much depends on your room.  I know folks always say what type of music to you listen to, but should that really matter?  So many of us just listen to music and don't care what 'type'.  A great speaker, especially at these prices, should do it all. 

I wonder if this is why we see so many folks buying and selling on Audiogon.  They buy into what others say and don't go listen on their own.  Yes, I love Vandy's as do many of us, but folks need to go listen on their own and be sold or not.  JMHO

Harbeth 40.2 if you want to listen to music and not to speakers.  They are special.

I went through this exercise last year - Devore Gibbon Xs the winner

KEF Reference 5s got my vote and money.

@thomasgc

Totally agreed. Sabrina’s are amazing. Especially with ARC tubes and D’Agostino SS. Want to hear with the HV series T+A gear. Don't be fooled by their size, they can pressurize a decent-sized room.

Mbl is also very special. Check them out.

Inna >, you have to decide in advance if you would be willing to deal with tube and hybrid amps
…. listening to high end systems on youtube is an interesting activity

Blindjim > I’m good with tubes, and or hybrid amps. Which ones for which speakers is at issue. More than likely, a PP tube amp or amps. Size unknown.

On the youtube front, so far, I like the Nola Grand metros with the VAC power amp and Statement preamp. I forget the $7K CDP brand they used.


Boisehomes > Aerial acoustics 20T; Egglestonworks Andra II or III

Blindjim > interesting fare. Thanks.


joey_v > BW 802D3 is me.

Blindjim > it was ‘me’ too for a long time… till I saw it wasn’t.


2psyop > Let me take the low road…. too much of a value to let go.

Blindjim > understood. I have a pair of 1970s era Phase Technologies PC 6.5s two ways, I bought from a friend for $25. Had the good fortune to have them dcompletely refurbished by PT including shipping for < $200. Unless lightening strikes them they’ll stay.
A larger pair of ’96 full range FS could be next if PT says they will do them too.


good and ctsooner > A great speaker, especially at these prices, should do it all

blindjim > well said. Bravo. We’ll see.
I’m actually thinking of getting a fundamentally right sounding pr of more modest priced ones first, IF the quest begins to become extended.
Triton’s keep coming to mind. Despite some personal concerns.


Hondo > Harbeth 40.2 if you want to listen to music and not to speakers. They are special.

Blindjim > thanks much. They do require IMO more of a commitment given specs and as stand mounts. Their price demands one be quite in love with them too or it’s a pretty big price for an audition.


Keithr > I went through this exercise last year - Devore Gibbon X’s

Blindjim > these would resolve a few things for me.

Why the X’s and not the Orangs or ? Devores?


Theothergreg > KEF Reference 5s got my vote and money.

Blindjim > congratulations.


pokey77 > Sabrina’s are amazing

blindjim > ??.... in how large a room? Is a $40K plus SS amp really necessary too?

How are these better than the Sophias, or just different?

Not much chance seeing a pair pre-owned any time soon. Local options here don’t make me very optimistic either.

In my present room I think they would or could work quite well, but I’m planning on moving too. If possible, into a larger better space so the weather isn’t as much a concern. Bigger listening .room too by a smidgin’.

One of the esteemed member listenes to JM Labs Grand Utopia with top of the line Allnic electronics and Purist Audio cables. Perhaps on a smaller scale you would like that sound as well.

Many opinions. Many options. My only comment is that at your price point, you should be able to audition any pair of speakers in your own room. 

Blindjim- I auditioned both at length and prefer the more "modern" sound of the Gibbon Xs vs the Orangutans. Particularly in the bass, which I feel is a bit loose on the Os for my tastes in music. I also do not like SET amplification, so the extra efficient isn't necessary. 

A set of good tubes and horn speakers is bliss. 
Not sure I could have only one set of lifetime speakers. I listen to a lot of jazz and it's accompanying trio of music and I've found something as simple and non pretentious as Klipsch Bell's BREATH jazz effortlessly on low volume to mid low volume. I know their limits and within their confines they make beautiful music.
Going this route you'd have extra to spend elsewhere. 
Anyway, I'd have to have a set of horns in one room then cones in another. Best of both worlds variety is spice of life and all that.
Best to you sir in your search!

RX7, great way to put things. 

Inna > … JM Labs Grand Utopia… Perhaps on a smaller scale you would like that sound as well.

Blindjim > Inna you’re a tremendous aid in expanding my horizons on various themes and gear. THX!! The Focal Sofras are on a list of sorts. Having heard only a few of Focal’s entry line spkrs, and never really been a fan, it is a big ? still. It also seems to imply stronger amps are needed than low power tube amps. So, it’s a different tact on the same prospect for achieving great sound. …and no, they’re not atop the list. VA ‘the Music’ are.


gsm18439 > … should be able to audition any pair of speakers in your own room

blindjim > I do agree, however, there are more than a few obstacles to that end.
Listening in a similarly sized room should be good enough. Especially if the session is in a distant venue. If I can find something local that appeals to me, its gonna be a far more doable thing.


Keithr > …. prefer the more "modern" sound of the Gibbon Xs

Blindjim > many thanks!!
I can’t find one article, decent or otherwise on the Gibbon ten. Anywhere.

It has always been my exp if the amp’s damping factor is high, or the wpc is, the bass reacts to it with better speed and harmonic response, or tunefulness. The room does play a part though.

I get it the O’s are just two drivers and the X’s have another cone.

What kind of amp and how large was the room when you heard both speakers? Do you recall? Similar amps and rooms?


rx7onmymind > Not sure I could have only one set of lifetime speakers.

Blidnjim > agreed. If we are all honest, a pretty big section of us will say exactly that. Some wil obviously opt their second wish for HT. or for tubes. Or for S.E.T. & high eff spkrs as you mentioned.

I feel we need all three. On some level, to some extent. I simply enjoy music. Some genres IMO work best in one amp & spkr arrangement, and some genres work best in another.

As good as past rigs of mine were very satisfying across all genres, there’s something about hearing a torch singer and small jazz combo. Or solo folk artist and all on triode power that SS just can’t get with, let alone, surpass..

I’m sort of hoping somewhere along the way I’ll hear a rig that really sends me, and its one I can afford, or even mostly afford, and that will be it for the main system. Hopefully, it will be or sound like, tube amps. Albeit, if not, its not a deal breaker if the sound is a ‘killer’ sounding rig.

Maggie 20s were the very first hi end speaker I ever heard. Driven by Levinson power and Sony – Phillips SCDP 1 playing CSNY. Their imaging was immediate and tangible. I had to look twice to see no actual musicians were standing between the panels. Amazing.

Although, the very next room had a huge Krell amp pushing a pair of BW nautilus speakers and the astonishment continued.

If only electrostats, panels, and the like had more mid bass and up jump factor… I’d be right there!