thanks much.
recent entries to the audio world have gotten my speaker buying trigger finger.
Prudence, we all know her, says slow down big boy. No. she actually said it! so I will and listen to everyone's esteemed consel.
randy-11
Persona, Revel, Vandies, etc. if you cannot live with giant panels in the room
Panels frighten me. I always feel someone is hiding behind one waiting to pounce on me. Cones are more my cup of tea. Although, I’ve heard some outstanding flat speakers, though in fairly ‘spensive arrays.
Those with subs seem to keep my interest.
I just can’t seem to get very far away from the impact and punchy aspects of Big Band Jazz, R&B and Blues which speakers must deliver.
.
dweller
In that range I'd look at: Wilson Sasha (version I or II), Eggelstonworks Andra III, Vandersteen Quatro Wood and Magico S3 or S5.
Agreed. Tanks.
boxer12
Lowther speakers are the way to go.
My pleasure entirely. Tanks for the path less traveled.
randy-11
for life? that could be 40 years if bought about age 30
it could be just a few months depending on the doctor too. ‘just saying.
Not many go into anything passionately figuring its gonna be all over quickly. The fullness of our dedication surprisingly watch only their clocks, and formulate their own epitaphs, and will depart from us unexpectedly. , were we the sole prophet of the term we had intended for the partenership.
terry9
What Randy said.
I’m sure.
Falling out of love hurts more than falling in. plenty of Quaad owners sure say so.
c53
Tanks. Only come close to buying a pair of APs.
glennewdick
Living Voice OBX-RW3
Super. Thanks.
zavato
Revel Studio 2 and Salon 2
I’ve never been able to warm up to either. Likely from the setup, not the speakers.
4425
Wilson Yvette. Spectacular.
Wilson, like the Revels have not been ones which have utterly grabbed me. Both IMHO, required something more or less in their setups. Tubes? Wires? Purely on basis of ‘potential’ and expense, I have been attracted to Sophias and Egg works Andreas, in past years. That affinity has worn thin. Especially with the onset of some newer tech and arrangements in present materials, metals, and cabinent construction techniques.
gsm18439
Zu Def 4, Audio Note ANE, and Living Voice.
Check. In home audition? The primary obstacle associated with this endeavor. It sucks.
But yeah, dropping that sort of dough is gonna take a bit of pondering and ruminating, and a whole lot of praying.
gdhal
Golden Ear Triton Reference. No sub required/needed.
Cool. Thanks.
The VSA + Endeavor union has gained in prominence in my book, but especially the Endeavor 3.2. At $7K they’re said to be exceptional over achievers.
Too bad the next steps up to the 5, or VSA VR 55 are so extraordinarily priced so far apart, at $35K and $60K respectively.
Now that there is Yikes money!!
Its not serious money. Serious money is when you get chastised for spending or trying to spend it on such things by the money itself!
Yikes money is what someone you know will say when you screw up and actually tell them how much you paid. Well, its either ‘yikes’ or ‘Crazy’ money.
This is of course once they have returned to consciousness.
I usually think of money in different terms so I don’t faint dead away hearing what some stuff costs. I prefer to think of the prices in Yen, or Pesos or Sea shells and pieces of colored glass or beads.
I quit telling my ‘uninitiated’ friends what things cost long ago. I won’t tell them now unless they want to either touch it or borrow it.
Keeping prices confidential cuts way down on any ensuing ‘interventions’ people might arrange for me later.
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pryso
Janszen
Never heard of 'em. but that don't mean nuttin'.
yes. I'm still taking notices. I'm catching up after a few years out of the loop.
Thank you. the only sure thing I know, is I don't know enough yet. although, the next direction will definitely include tubes. Where, what and how many, is the question. I'm thinking either mixed as pre and amp, or in both pre and amp. speakers will be the dictator.
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Doug... PM me. Thanks.
swampwalker
If I was going to drop that kind of coin, I would definitely listen to the latest from Horning and Classic Audio Reproductions, driven by tubes.
Thanks Swampwalker. Long time huh?
Are these horns?
I’ll probably be able, but not so sure I really want to lay out that much. So, I’m thinking squeakers between 90 and 95db or so, give or take a db or two. Around $10 to $15K or so.
To go all in, I’d be lurking at pre owned stuff from Magico or something that begins with an “A” or an “E”.
mr_m
Vandersteen Treo CT. with Vandy 2Wq sub(s). Very good sound that won't break the bank. IMO.
Thanks. These are in hard cabinents?
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mr_m said: …the Treos are in hard cabinets. The sub has top panels and socks. Yeah. I was. Thank you. , Stephan Said, Bastanis Speaker are the Best i ever heard http://www.bastanis.de/index.php/audio/open-baffles-1/open-baffle-sagarmatha-duothanks much for the input. Cheers, Jim pryso Jim, Janszen is an old company with a history back to the '60s. David Janszen's father developed advancements in electrostatic panel designs for his own company as well as others, such as the famous KLH Nine full range electrostatics. I became aware of them in the '70s when they offered a few hybrid models which appeared like other standard bookshelf speakers but utilized electrostatic mid/tweeters with dynamic cone woofers. Cool. Thanks a lot. Active subs on panels would be the only panel speakers that would interest me, if then. To date, IMHO, the articulation and imaging of panels is alluring, if setup well, yet they just lack the boogie factor I’m prone to lust for periodically. I’ve been poking about online articles and user opinions regarding way too many speakers. Its confusing but enlightening. Some names have not appeared here from other A’goners, like YG; Legacy Aries; GamuT; AZ Cresendo, Daedalus, Salk, Focal, or even Coincident. Lots of panels, a couple horn mentions, some open baffle sorts and I must admit I’m still stuck in the mud on seeing traditional built cabinet types as hwere I’d be prone to hang my hat. Old habits die hard. |
ediver blindjim > thanks so very much for the thoughts and appraisals. Bmontani > Really like my Thiel 3.7s. A bargain at 16 K retail. Now probably 6 or 7 k. Blindjim > Do they still make part of the cabinet out of concrete? Davidclarke > QUAD ESL2912 WITH 4 KEF sub-woofers and 2 Raal Ribbon Ribbon Tweeters... http://www.quad-hifi.co.uk/product-detail.php?pid=11Blindjim > Appreciate it greatly. However, my chences are mighty slim I’m opting for ‘Stats. Its just personal preffs. Though some other readers might. Tanks. Soundsrealaudio > So Blindjim tell us what you value in speakers. Blindjim > like anyone, ‘everything’. I want it all. I listen to nearly every genre save for Rap and Hip Hop, and current R&B which is usually the aforementioned in disguise. Not much symphonic or opera but that could change. Biggest favs are big band jazz, R&B, Folk, acid jazz, contemporary jazz, country, though not much of the current ilk. Blues and Rock, but not much metal head stuff. Alternative. Americana. Etc. Pop but not those stuck in Electronica. In short, music that makes sense. Not just someone talking a song while a synthesizer does the sounds. Speakers should be accomplished at Imaging, fidelity, feel it kind of impact. Neutrality which lands spot on or merely a degree or three to the warmer side… though doesn’t obscure deatail or separation of performers. Coherency, and cohesion. Range. I loved the dynaudio Isotar tweeter in my previous Sonata IIIs. As for bass response, this area remains open or debatable. Depending…. I’m not aginst the addition of a sub or two, though it is not the primary aim going into this next system build. Were I forced to choose to forgoe any part of the bandwidth, I’d have to say I’d wind up with monitors and sacrifice buying speakers with poor, bad, or no bass. Its important to me, but not the deal breaker it used to be. I’m not big on pipe organs anyhow. However, the tweeter is or can be a deal breaker. Loads of factors abound which can dictate a resolution, room, power amps (glass or SS), and of course the speakers that land here. IMHO, speakers should always be the windows to the music and your up river gear. But not so critical and incisive the musical experience is shelved at the expense of rendering sonics with an acid etched outline. I’m not yet a detail and resolution at all costs freak just yet. Though I see their necessity. “Do you have the gear to support these things. Is your upstream very transparent?” God willing and the creek don’t flood, yeah. Soon. I’m figuring on dropping around $40K. less, of course if possible, a bit more if necessary. Wanna stay under $50K total. As I’ve always been shown the front end means the most that’s where the budget is tilted. This aspiration should allow for more speaker investing though… and why this thread. And the amp & cable threads initiated simultaneously.. Nothing is set to stone but amps I like just now are the Constellation imagination ? entry level, VAC IA line, one or two more and all range from $8K to $15K. predominately. Once more, the speakers will certainly influence and likely command the power amp decision. So I’ll be more attracted to squeakers with 89 – 90db to 95 – 96db, for I would prefer tubes. I think. Their upkeep could alter this view point. Maybe. a Thor MK II will remain the controller, until I feel it too must or has to be preplaced as it is SE only. Most amps in the upper ranges are true XLR, ie., above. Digital source and cabling options are catch as catch can and will be an ongoing pursuit. Albeit, I have ideas there too and a Bel canto DAC 3, some decent PCs and spkr cables, left over from my former array. The goal is to update and upgrade everything. Eventually so this venture becomes ‘the’ destination outfit. Which I find, pretty funny. But for some years, I should be pretty happy with what ever lands here. Time, weather, inclination, and so forth will push it into the ‘ever evlolving’ phylum I’m sure. Acquiring music should then take the reigns. Kollamala > Recommend Marten Bird 2 Blindjim > appreciate it. Phillipsus > Wilson W/P 7, 8 or Sasha (any model) with VTL preamp (2.5 or 7.5) and VTL amplification. Blindjim > I sure do feel ya on the tubes required with Wilsons. deepee99 > Tyler Highlands. Blindjim > thank you. I keep hearing from tyler owners, as with other brands owners, they like what they got. russ751 > I thought I would be a planar guy forever until I picked up a used pair of Kipod 2 speakers from YG Acoustics. Blindjim > thanks. Funny you mention the YGs. I read an article about their Carmellas ? that interested me. Some. The review said they were frightfully revealing which concerns me a good bit. Did you hear any other YGs or the Carmellas? Ilkeresmer > Find a Dunlavy SC-4 and live it!!! Blindjim > tanks. Not likely. Sorry. Too old. Too hard to drive. kingdomtrading1 > But If you want great HIFI type sound with wide dispersion have a serious look at the new Paradigm Persona speakers with Berrylium tweeters and mid drivers blindjim > these already sit on the short list. Which model is another story completely. To which models have you listened? With what power train and source? I’ve not heard these but they are definitely on my short list: AZ Crescendo latest ver. YG Carmell latest ver Focal Sofera latest ver. A great deal on a Wilson might impress me. Endeavor 3s latest ver. Audio Physics and that Austrian speaker maker always make pretty good upper end units. Daedalus Poseidon A couple I can not recall this minute, and a wild card pre owned model which I can’t afford as new at all. Hope that helps. |
Firstonetallguy > Martin Logan Expression ESL 13a electrostatic and dynamic hybrid speakers.
Blindjim > please forgive the delay. THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
Stats have a huge following here and with several of my friends. I, on the other hand have a substantial issue with panels. Why? Beats me. Perhaps the space and power requirements, but mostly its their lack of kick you in the stomach or chest dynamics, and bass extension I’ve noticed so common to them.
In nearly all other areas of the audio nut spec sheet for sound and sonics, they excel. Well, the sweet spot often gets tiny.
Maybe someday I’ll grow up and buy a pair of them or Vandy’s. the latter will take longer to overcome as there exists a small personal gripe
Thomasgc > Wilson Sabrina these speakers are something special!
Blindjim > Hi. Sorry for the getting back delay. Thanks. Saw these online but feel a slightly larger speaker is preferred as the room size is gonna grow from its present dimensions as well. .
suncoast_audio > blindjim - you may want to audition KEF Blade 2's.
Mike, please forgive the delay.thanks so very much.
Blindjim > If you don’t mind, PM me please.
RE Kef I’ve been interested in Kef for years but have no exp there.
Snopro > If you like SET Amps, then Hornings are very nice and no subs needed.
Blindjim > please forgive the delay. I sincerely appreciate the second note for horns. My concern there is once more, probably all in my head, and a lack of exp with them. If your input was added after reading my last post herein, it is more than appreciated.
Harrylavo > Used high-end Thiels, and especially the 7.2.
Blindjim > sorry about being late here. Thanks much. That’s not a bad idea at all. Again, their performance improves with escalated power as I understand it.
Blindjim > Come to think of it, many of the upper end speakers do their best with more than 100 – 200wpc… as I’ve read or heard personally.
Skanda > Raidhos
Blindjim > Tanks. Never heard of these what so ever. Haven’t even seen an article about them yet.
FYI
The jaw met floor sound that haunts me, or did haunt me for years was the first time I heard a Thor TA 1000 line stage pre + a pair of Thor TA 30 monos driving VSA VR4JRs sourced by a then popular tube CDP from off shore and Audience spkr wires.
I found out later on, one simply can not duplicate the sound of a certain system, with different gear. It can however be closely replicated closely just not identically.
Along the way, I found out I really enjoyed the EL 34 amps, and a SET – like sound…. Though not 100%. Not on cone spkrs with normal sensitivities any way.
In all, I have to admit I like the sound Tubes deliver. I don’t like the bottom end most tube amps provide with yet again, spkrs with low imps or below 90db sens.
Then and this is based on exp only, the answer is to forgoe spkrs with std db ratings and low imp ratings, and seek out 95db and up spkrs with easier imp loads, right? Right. Well, maybe right.
My former Sonata . IIIs had reportedly 93DB and ‘appox’ 8ohm imp loads. A pair of past Dodd monos running Ultralinear was an enjoyable every time setup despite the musical genre... Mostly.
I’ve been unable to figure out precisely how to get a tube power train to drive ‘what ever’ spkrs within sensible financial constraints, that can accommodate every sort of music. Without adding a sub. Albeit, I’ve seen subs on systems that cost lots of $$$ with speakers that are very ‘spensive too.
I’m certain the ‘C’ word is soon to shove its ugly face into the formula too. And I despise being pushed around by ‘compromise’, although it’s a salient and recurring factor in these endeavors. At least it is in my world.
As such, I’m thinking SS or likewise amp (S) for the main rig going forward.
I am liking what I read about the Vienna Acoustic ‘Musics’, albeit not terribly the power needed to really make them sit up and sing.
As well, on a lesser dollar scale, a tube Integrated, or stereo amp or monos and a pair of decent or high Eff monitors for a secondary system in a smaller room.
I think these two approaches weed out a lot of the ‘C’ word from either effort. Not all, but more than a fair bit.
Hope this helps more.
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Sorry, I simply did not see the second page. 8-)) sheesh My gratitude for all the input herein is immense. Thanks all if I miss someone.. Chances are quite high that if or when I’m able to launch the new squeaker enterprise, I’ll soon be moving, so the room will be either similar or hopefully, larger by some. Likely not by a lot, but some. Hopefully wider, about the same in depth. Can’t say at all about ceilings. My expectations are that during my travels, I’ll walk into a room and the sound will pin my jaw to the floor, it will be within reach financially, and I’ll hand over my plastic or go to a local bank and get the bread.. sancho22 > After 52 pairs of speakers: DeVore O/96 - with the appropriate room and matched electronics - Second the Vandy Trio with Vandy subs - sublime Blindjim > What is the correct or merely a great elec match for Devor’s? Mresseguie > I won't try to dissuade you from the Poseidons, but I'd like to direct your attention to the new Daedalus Apollo speakers. Blindjim > Daedalus is merely on the short list of imagined choices. Nothing is set to stone. Logistics there might be a limiter. Thanks for the nod to Apollos. Michael > “Next down on my list would be the AZ Crescendos, but their price tag is higher.” jim > again, distance or availability with any or all of those listed here or on my own list, could be concerns. I seriously doubt I’ll purchase ANY speakers without hearing them. Period. Not at some of these prices. pokey77 > I feel like I'm sorta in the same boat. I've heard systems from less than $10k total to well over a half a million. 1. Mbl - The Corona line. for $32k you can get an integrated, CD/DAC, and a pair of Mbl 126 speakers. I've heard a great number of Mbl electronics/speakers over the last four years and I can't get enough. I always sit in their room much much longer than any other room. 2. ARC LS28/VT80 RefCD9 source with Wilson Audio Sabrina speakers. they both make such nice music. 3. Heard the Sabrina with the ARC GSi75 integrated and found that experience very nice. Blindjim > thanks loads. See above for feedback on what and when I’ll reach for the wallet. Ebm > Used Magico Q3 or S3 mk2 jump on them ASAP!!!!!! Blindjim > we’ll see. Thanks much. cb5300 > I would probably buy a pair of Legacy Audio Aeris... Of course, on the other hand, I have been completely happy with my 11K Focus SE's.... blindjim > I’ve given more than some thought to the Legacy’s. deepee99 > … speakers ought to occupy 70% of your hardware budget. Blindjim > tanks for the input. sorry. 70% is far too high IMHO. deepee99 > speaks in need of re-habbing blindjim > check. I have a pair I pray I can send back and get completely re-done up in Jacksonville. 11 years ago they sold for about $4K. just some very nice sounding 100lb. towers. They eat watts. bassdude2 > Legacy Audio Aeris blindjim > they intimidate me. They could even be smarter. Hddg > XTZ Divine Alpha, no hesitation Blindjiom > tanks for stopping by. rodge827 > Lowthers blindjim > very informative and much appreciated. I’ve always been astonished at what a single driver can do from their reports. I’ve never heard one. mr_m > the Vandy Quattro Wood CT with 2Wq subs might meet your need. They don't require large or expensive amps to sing, With the built in bass adjustment along with the subs, you can perfectly dial in the bottom end for just about any room. Cheers, blindjim > thanks Tim. Doubtless, somewhere along the line I’ll run into a pair of these, so we’ll see. The ‘grief’ was a minor issue but not handled well at all. 4425 > No tubes needed on latest Wilson's with new soft dome tweeter. It's very extended and smooth. Not exotic which is fine with me. - Had Revels before and think highly of them as well. Blindjim > interesting. I always found former WAS units dry or overly hard with leading edges of notes, and felt in nearly every case it was a setup or synergy issue given their popularity. Atmosphere > I think you can get into a set of Classic Audio Loudspeakers model T3 for the budget you've mentioned. The speakers are easy to set up in most rooms. I have them about 6 inches from the wall behind them and they image very nicely. You don't need a subwoofer (they easily shake the building with only a few watts as they have dual 15" woofers in each cabinet) and they are easily driven by tubes as they are 98 db and 16 ohms. Blindjm > that is a compelling argument. Thank you very much. I can only say now as with all other advisories, we’ll see. Swampwalker > I’ve learned some things along the way. I like tubes. A good tube system to my ears sounds like music, a good ss rig sounds like a good ss rig. So once that was settled, it means looking for tube-friendly speakers. The beauty of a high eff speaker is that it mates well with tubes AND it does not require horsepower size amps. That means you can use modest powered amps that do not break the budget. The Thor EL-34s would be great, but if you have not heard the Classic Audio/Atma combo that Ralph Karsten demos at shows like RMAF, you should. A pair of M-60s produced rock concert level volume in a very, very large room not the little converted overnight rooms, but one of the very good sized conference rooms. That allows you to keep your amp budget down and put more $ into the speakers. I used to own M-60s but let them get away (my bad), but now I have a fully loaded S-30 that does just fine in my 14x 23 room. The Hornings use a modified Lowther for the mids, a wave guide tweeter, and multiple smaller (maybe 8") woofers in a modern slim tower cabinet. The Classic Audio speakers use horns with conventional very large woofers. To my ears, no shout in either one. If you prefer the VAC sound over an OTL, you can get a used Ren 30/30 for about $3-4K that will give you all the dBs you will ever need with high 90 dB speakers. I mention these two brands because I have used them both with 95/96 dB speakers and thought they worked very well, and you will hear only the best comments on the level of service VAC and Atma-sphere provide. Blindjim > thanks Swamp…. Because I’m here but not all there, once the proposition of actually seeing High Eff speakers as the course, then comes the well, OK>.. horns… well then which ones? Which amps? Which style SET amps? @@ I appear to be the only one in the crowd I know of that has used a tube preamp and tube monos as were the dodd EL34s @ 120wpc… maybe. Running in ultralinear I had no gripes. A little wish for more of this or that, but in all, was pretty happy with the amp and spkr combo back then.. Put it this way, I sure regret having to sell the Dodds and Sonata IIIs due to some dregs of society and LEO response times.. Existing hesitations in dedicating myself to tubes and High Eff speakers solely, surround the genres of music I enjoy. I used to like both kinds of music. Country and Western. My tastes have matured some and have spread out like Georgia Cud-zoo. I’m all in on the likes of AC/DC to Zydego. I dig Ella and Hartman, holiday and turentine, Parker, Felonius, Classic rock, old school R&B, blues especially, and so many others. Even Fourplay, Spyro Gyra, big band jazz, pop, blues, and rock. Folk, alternative, and now am getting into symphonies, and eegad, perhaps opera, but don’t tell anyone . So I want punch and drive when its called for and as well as imaging and accuracy when the source material provides for it. Lastly, I’d want the speakers to look as traditional as possible. Not open baffled, or some Frakenstuff array. Mostly. How much I’m willing to sacrifice my desires hangs on what is delivered, I suppose. I pray I’d not cut my nose off to spite my face and choose a lesser pair for esthetics over performance, if push came to shove. I’ve no current spouse to assuage so it is my call flat out. Huge thanks Swampwalker. randy-11 > thinking more about this... blindjim > see above on the ‘room’ aspect. It might well change too. Gdhal > And in that case, he would still have enough for the Golden Ear Triton Reference :) Blindjim > tanks. Never heard of those, but have now and its the ‘why’ of this topic. Cool. 2bz > I listened to the Focal Sopra 2's. I knew I was getting these!!! Absolutely loved them. Got electrostatic detail from a dynamic speaker with bass. - Sopra's are just so detailed/lifelike that they took over as my main speakers. My room is smaller than yours (approx. 18 x 12' ) and wondered if I should have waited for the Sopra 3's but was told the 2's would be better for my room. Blindjim > IIs are cheaper too. - If you buy something before hearing the Sopra 3's then my advice would be not to go listen to them as you may have regrets! Good luck with this endless hobby! Blindjim > lol. Nope. There’s an end. Many just don’t see it when they get there. Soundsrealaudio > www.soundsrealaudio.comBlindjim > thanks. Maybe so. I found out a while back, I don’t know everything. Problem is, I have to constantly remind myself of it. |
Mapman > I’ve had my OHM Ls that I’m listening to and thoroughly enjoying right now since 1978.
Blindjim > Good to hear from you. Sorry but I don’t quite get what ‘LS’ means.
333jeffery > Tekton Design's Ulfberhts would be perfect for you...
Blindjim > I’ll see what I can find on them.
I did see a very interesting note on a pair of spkrs I had never heard of resulting from this thread, so who knows? That, is the whole idea here. Explore new brands, types, etc. so a more thoughtful decision can be made.
Soundsrealaudio >Well I can't stop myself. That means you should be very afraid.
Here are the speaker components that would disqualify them…..
Blindjim > I’m only afraid of large hairy or finned creatures on the loose that can and or want to eat me alive. Well, that and Mother In Laws.
Looking at your list of no no for spkr builds I can only say wow. It sure does lessen the short list! I can’t help but wonder just how many people would oppose your concerns, or how many actually have bought, and or will continue to buy speakers with exactly one or more of your list of criteria to avoid. Adding them all together I’d guess over 90% of spkrs bought possess at least one item, perhaps more in that list.
I do appreciate the honesty or openness being demonstrated. Thanks. It might be best to have listed only the one or two speaker makers which indeed conform to your philosophies.
So, OK. Exactly who is making speakers that keep to your notions that land in the criteria of this thread, and sound great enough to keep forever?
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Blindjim > Soundsrealaudio if you would please provide something of a list which adheres to your build and design ideologies, it would be appreciated. Thank you.
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Soundsrealaudio > if you would please provide something of a list which adheres to your build and design ideologies, it would be appreciated. Thank you.
Blindjim > well. OK.
What I want from a loudspeaker is what anyone wants going in, neutrality, accuracy, and when possible, for myself, a traditional build that presents its esthetic as more furniture than Star Wars-ish…. Again, if possible.
In this instance, looking for keeper Speakers, they should be full range and develop the entire bandwidth evenly and flat from 20 – 25Hz to well beyond human hearing. The sound should emanate cohesively and coherently as if from a single driver.
They should not be selective as to the type or amount of power required for them to produce their fullest voice. This aspect however appears to be perhaps the single most speculative aspect of speakers by and large. Speaker designs dictate very often how much power and occasionally what sort, is preferred.
In a perfect world, no speaker should ever require an amp to output more than 200wpc, and operate quite well on far, far, less. No one should be forced to sit in a ‘sweat lodge’ because their amps are running as ‘space heaters’ while driving loudspeakers.
Neither should the speakers force or imply biamping, or tri amping is required by including more than one set of binding posts to connect to power. Adding on secondary or tertiary binding posts makes a statement that gives me pause.
The speakers should play outside the confines of their cabinets. Cast a well defined sound stage and depict all images sseparated yet still woven into the recording duplicit with the original recording methodology and or venue in an orgainic or natural way. Sounds should be localized and specific enough that I don’t have to think if that is a clarinet or sax. Viola or violin. Mandolin or banjo.
What materials make up the speaker superstructure, its drivers or transducers, and its cross overs if employed, is none of my actual business. I could care less what goes into any speaker. If they could make speakers with bailing wire and chieckn feathers, duct tape and bear grease, it would suit me.
Of course, the seller and speaker maker could never ever divulge the materials they used to build them, if any of the above were included. Purely for self esteem issues. Mine, not theirs.
Ohnly how well it mates to the power train being used, its actual sonic presentation, esthetic, fit into the room and its cost per pair are my ultimate interest.
Hope that clears up my perfect speaker philosophy. Too bad there aren’t too many of those around. Speakers are always in some area, a compromise, if only marrginally. Usually, its cost.
dragon_vibe > Dealers need to refrain from selling items directly on forums maybe advisable to PM directly.
Note: Raidhos are bought and sold more often than most speakers on audiogon. Their is a massive thread on this...Look it up.
Blindjim > Agreed!! Dealers should add merely their experiences which are not solely based on what their inventory du jour conveys and is Germaine to the topic.
RE Raidhos
I’ve yet to read an article on these speakers that got my attention. I’m obviously not getting it on the Raidho bus.
Inna > None of this would be exactly inexpensive, but you want great sound, and if you are going to listen to big orchestra - that's tough.
Blindjim > some of those combos are shown on Youtube now. Especially the VAC + Focal Utopia match up. Albeit, these are ‘at shows’ arrangements with ultimate cabling and so forth connecting everything…. And of course, it’s a video, not anything like an ‘in person’ event would be like.
Symphonies are not yet my cup of jo. Now and then, but not too often. I do intend on getting into the classics soon. It’s a complicated genre IMO.
There are only so many works, BUT done by every orchestra and conductor imaginable.
It amuses me that electronic makers and speaker makers take the path of using ultra high priced this or that to show the abilities of their gear. Often using wires alone that cost six figures!! Racks, etc. few people can buy or will.
Speaker makers too hook up with front ends no one would likely use due to cost constraints.
IMHO… if electronics are indeed great… why then do they need the upmost level of cabling and speakers surrounding them? Same thing for speakers. If the frakin’ speakers are superior at their cost then why put $200K worth of elecs in front of them?
Why not merely use entry level gear if the speakers are so outstanding.
Why not use entry level or mid level speakers if the elecs are superior?
Sure, you wanna talk to those Cost No object people, then by all means do that in a separate room. Then have everyone in that room show their last years income tax returns Or maybe just their McClaren, Lambo Bugatti, or Tesla car keys to gain entry. Actual inventoried dealers not with standing.
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Inna >, you have to decide in advance if you would be willing to deal with tube and hybrid amps
…. listening to high end systems on youtube is an interesting activity
Blindjim > I’m good with tubes, and or hybrid amps. Which ones for which speakers is at issue. More than likely, a PP tube amp or amps. Size unknown.
On the youtube front, so far, I like the Nola Grand metros with the VAC power amp and Statement preamp. I forget the $7K CDP brand they used.
Boisehomes > Aerial acoustics 20T; Egglestonworks Andra II or III
Blindjim > interesting fare. Thanks.
joey_v > BW 802D3 is me.
Blindjim > it was ‘me’ too for a long time… till I saw it wasn’t.
2psyop > Let me take the low road…. too much of a value to let go.
Blindjim > understood. I have a pair of 1970s era Phase Technologies PC 6.5s two ways, I bought from a friend for $25. Had the good fortune to have them dcompletely refurbished by PT including shipping for < $200. Unless lightening strikes them they’ll stay.
A larger pair of ’96 full range FS could be next if PT says they will do them too.
good and ctsooner > A great speaker, especially at these prices, should do it all
blindjim > well said. Bravo. We’ll see.
I’m actually thinking of getting a fundamentally right sounding pr of more modest priced ones first, IF the quest begins to become extended.
Triton’s keep coming to mind. Despite some personal concerns.
Hondo > Harbeth 40.2 if you want to listen to music and not to speakers. They are special.
Blindjim > thanks much. They do require IMO more of a commitment given specs and as stand mounts. Their price demands one be quite in love with them too or it’s a pretty big price for an audition.
Keithr > I went through this exercise last year - Devore Gibbon X’s
Blindjim > these would resolve a few things for me.
Why the X’s and not the Orangs or ? Devores?
Theothergreg > KEF Reference 5s got my vote and money.
Blindjim > congratulations.
pokey77 > Sabrina’s are amazing
blindjim > ??.... in how large a room? Is a $40K plus SS amp really necessary too?
How are these better than the Sophias, or just different?
Not much chance seeing a pair pre-owned any time soon. Local options here don’t make me very optimistic either.
In my present room I think they would or could work quite well, but I’m planning on moving too. If possible, into a larger better space so the weather isn’t as much a concern. Bigger listening .room too by a smidgin’.
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Inna > … JM Labs Grand Utopia… Perhaps on a smaller scale you would like that sound as well.
Blindjim > Inna you’re a tremendous aid in expanding my horizons on various themes and gear. THX!! The Focal Sofras are on a list of sorts. Having heard only a few of Focal’s entry line spkrs, and never really been a fan, it is a big ? still. It also seems to imply stronger amps are needed than low power tube amps. So, it’s a different tact on the same prospect for achieving great sound. …and no, they’re not atop the list. VA ‘the Music’ are.
gsm18439 > … should be able to audition any pair of speakers in your own room
blindjim > I do agree, however, there are more than a few obstacles to that end.
Listening in a similarly sized room should be good enough. Especially if the session is in a distant venue. If I can find something local that appeals to me, its gonna be a far more doable thing.
Keithr > …. prefer the more "modern" sound of the Gibbon Xs
Blindjim > many thanks!!
I can’t find one article, decent or otherwise on the Gibbon ten. Anywhere.
It has always been my exp if the amp’s damping factor is high, or the wpc is, the bass reacts to it with better speed and harmonic response, or tunefulness. The room does play a part though.
I get it the O’s are just two drivers and the X’s have another cone.
What kind of amp and how large was the room when you heard both speakers? Do you recall? Similar amps and rooms?
rx7onmymind > Not sure I could have only one set of lifetime speakers.
Blidnjim > agreed. If we are all honest, a pretty big section of us will say exactly that. Some wil obviously opt their second wish for HT. or for tubes. Or for S.E.T. & high eff spkrs as you mentioned.
I feel we need all three. On some level, to some extent. I simply enjoy music. Some genres IMO work best in one amp & spkr arrangement, and some genres work best in another.
As good as past rigs of mine were very satisfying across all genres, there’s something about hearing a torch singer and small jazz combo. Or solo folk artist and all on triode power that SS just can’t get with, let alone, surpass..
I’m sort of hoping somewhere along the way I’ll hear a rig that really sends me, and its one I can afford, or even mostly afford, and that will be it for the main system. Hopefully, it will be or sound like, tube amps. Albeit, if not, its not a deal breaker if the sound is a ‘killer’ sounding rig.
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Maggie 20s were the very first hi end speaker I ever heard. Driven by Levinson power and Sony – Phillips SCDP 1 playing CSNY. Their imaging was immediate and tangible. I had to look twice to see no actual musicians were standing between the panels. Amazing.
Although, the very next room had a huge Krell amp pushing a pair of BW nautilus speakers and the astonishment continued.
If only electrostats, panels, and the like had more mid bass and up jump factor… I’d be right there!
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Ctsooner > “…Maggies have some issues in the bass and are nearly impossible to integrate with any sub.”
Blindjim > Hi Ctsooner!
Years back, speakers like Maggies, Stats and panels were using Vandy subs as the ‘fashionable’ way to address the bottom octaves. This was in lieu of Velo’s and Rels. I seem to recall Vandy had then a 3 or 4 driver sub in a unique configuration. Forward angled and top firing or so I seem to think.
A number of people I’ve met run Martin Logans with traditional cones doing the low down work. Honestly, this approach works fairly well IMHO. Nearly all or likely all instances of the MLs are pumping out cohesion across the board using a fair variety of power, both higher end SS and with 200 + wpc tube amps.
Sadly, I’ve discovered tons of speakers in the sweet spot ($2K to $10K) of the speaker buying realm, don’t do the lower register from 40 on down very well. Period.
Even when I felt the bass was being deftly presented, engaging a decent sub handed down the real verdict.
Perhaps once one enters the $10 to $20K range it might change. And sure, we can put the room on trial here too. Although, an absence of low end response is just that, an absence and can only be attributed to the speaker system… not the room.
Only when low end response is myred, bloated, discontinuant and or ambiguous can we start pointing fingers at items apart from the setup or environment itself.
The IMP and sensitivity of Vandersteens doesn’t quite fit my needs, but I’ve not revisited any of the latest press in house or public on the Quatro versions.
If you could input a link to the items in your last posting I’d sure appreciate it.
For something completely different…
Devore Gibbon X
Does anyone know of a relatively recent article on Devore Givvon tens or ‘X’ speakers describing their performance, options, and build to some extent?
Or if not, a directly comparable equivalent loudspeaker?
Or, even nice sounding moderately priced horn speakers?
Thanks
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Jriggy > Part-Time Audiophile has just (and finally) released a short review
Blindjim > huge thanks. No worries on the links bit.
Finding substantial speakers these days with IMP of 8 ohms and higher EFF than 90 – 92db is getting as rare as finding hens teeth.
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Jriggy > Daedalus has been mentioned…. Argos …. Incredible speakers
Blindjim > yes, they have, thanks much. Some items foist a set of rules that are kept to, or disregarded and then, only a leap of faith is required in order to get it or them..
Sure wish Daedalus was on this coast instead of the left coast… or Lou’s units were more. Popular so I’d have greater shot at scooting over to someone’s home to hear it/them/some.
Are the ‘Argos’ above or below the ‘Poseidon’ in his line up?
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Jriggy > The Poseidon is above them all....for now...
Blindjim > super!! Thanks a lot.
I read an Argos v2 account from I think, Soundstage. 2013? Can’t find anything explicit or in depth on the P’s though.
‘appreciate the heads up on D.C.. I was just there too! Did not have time for anything but business though. Found out after my return about the various audio outlets. Great. Just my luck.
Oil well. Everything always works out. Just not when or how I would usually want them too… but it always does.
On another note/posting I did finally see the Youtube vid on the Gibbon X. the usually decent audio was not so good on that short IMO.
What still has a large question mark on speaker possibilities are the new Paradigm Personna line. Their specs alone got my attention… not their prices.
Speakers such as the personas, Van Quattro CT, Golden Ears, Focus Arias (?) which have the powered bass drivers and room correction at least for that area are an attractive notion.
Address the bass separately and do it well, opens the doors for loads of amp options. Specifically tube amps.
those from Devore, and Daedalus will have to remove themselves from my list. Along with a few others based on their own merits.
In fact, if I can find reasonably priced nice sounding horn speakers I could buy and try, then sell without loads of loss, I’d start there. We’ll see I think.
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if you run across a page with the latest VDS Quattro wood CT specs... let me know if you don’t mind. .
although I’ve not read thru a legit review per se, I've read both of Mr. Clark's ramblings on them and looked at the VDS web site but finding the actual numbers on them including current costs, appears to be a National security issue, or of little or no value to mr. Clark or VDS.
one of my bigger pet peeves is to read thru a review or article on audio equipment, and no one posts the just as important info... like weights, sizes, number of inputs, or outputs, sensitivities, IMP's, damping factors, even cost isn't always squarely confronted on the home website of the manufacturer..
copying and pasting legit info is not hard. Posting no model prices? Why not?
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Ctsooner > What are you talking about?
Blindjim > good question. Too bad you let others inspire you to not find out before you were promted to launch such a ridiculous affront here.
Atmas figured it out all by himself. He is spot on with his input.
How did this get missed by your constituency? Where were your buddies? Why did they not drop by and have you post so off the mark all alone?
So far you have been utterly helpful. Very thoughtful and I sincerely have appreciated all of your efforts. Thanks very much. Really.
I must exclaim here however the ‘PM’ facility on this site works quite well and if someone wants to really know what is what rather than ‘assume’, and we all know what comes out of the word assume, they could pm me…. Anytime and for any reason.
it looks like you chose to answer your own question or allowed your friends to decrypt the obvious statements I made and twist them into a manner contrary to reality.
Snarkey? Probably but I did not ‘snark’ it first.
I’ll try to use short paragraphs so the content is not overwhelming to your friends ability to comprehend it, as it seems you prefer to rely on others to think for you at times.
As for personally attacking someone I’ve never met. Never even spoken with, well, perhaps that is the way of things for many people today. I’m not from this period. I come from a time where respect was given to anyone. It was coveyed by way of consideration, thoughtfulness, and benefit of the doubt.
To read into something when it is not actually there says someone has a real set of issues they should deal with… asap. Like feeling threatened when no threat is apparent…. Like now.
Or if someone has an old axe they wish to regrind. As such, they should step up and get to getting.
In this current you furst after me, generation it seems things are being rearranged towards a more selfish self centered, slightly paranoid slant or spin.
Spin, that’s what people call truth, yet it is no more the ‘truth’ than a billy goat is a lawn mower.
I know from VDS and a few other maker’s speakers, amps, DACs especially, etc, posts those speakers are the end all be all for them in modern audio…. Great. Enjoy. I’m happy for you all.
Troll. In the real, just outside my door world, out on the sidewalks, an streets, that term could be and should be argued as slander. Only sheer idiots would walk up to anyone and call them such a name.
As the opportunity here extends itself beyond the forums and into sales of costly electronics those words are libelous too.
This ain’t a quiet talk on a park bench is it?
Nope. It is a published and compywrited form, thus its legal and legit.
Grow up.
Its what children say. Or what English language challenged people use to allow them to not fully apprise themselves of the actual contant.
So they will use reactionary paranoid assignments to derail anthing resembeling some perceived affront or attack on their ego (s), equipmebnt, man crushes, etc, exclaiming epithets at anyone from whom they feel concerned..
Troll. Ridiculous! Pitiful!
Directed or implied, I will expect an apology for this unwarranted reactionary attack!
Only online. And from supposed adults.
Disparaging. Its one more sign of our ongoing social decay. Only the truly self absorbed will find any of this humorous. Most will find it pathetic and senseless.
I was not and will not in the future or ever, intentionally thru premeditation be attacking anyone or anything specifically. I’m not responsible for inappropriate perceptions of others. and made mention of that as well.
My assertions surrounded content which could and should be put to greater light when a report is being written. Especially with speakers. Routinely specs are left out of many published online reviews. But here once more ‘’sloth’ or laziness ride hand in hand. As it does with any number of online published articles on audio equipment.
FYI…… FWIW
What usually takes someone a couple minutes or less online to seek, find and archive takes far longer if you must do it with your eyes closed.
Gee. That was sort of snarkish and trollish huh? Well, too bad.
I should have said, if you are BLIND…., like me, LIFE IS A BIT MORE TEDIUS… way more often. Like freakin’ daily.
I spend an enormous amount of time if and when I need or want to search out things on the web.
You and your friends should try that. Try life with your eyes closed for say, one day. Just one 24 hr. day and see just how much more complicated and frustrating life becomes
Put that sleep mask on and don’t ask anyone else for help, as you will pretend to live alone. I live alone.
Nobody will. They never do.I ain’t asking for sympathy. Merely explaining my side of the fence. I knew the risks when I joined the military.
We tend to keep our eyes open and our hearts and minds closed. Especially in the 2000s.
The adaptive ‘accessibility’ software I use is expensive, but not fool proof. Some web sites do not allow decent or good integration with it or them and at times a web site is nothing more than a blank page for someone who is blind… when the website itself and the access software don’t like each other.
Yeah. My personal confuser reads to me…. That which it can IF it is working well, and IF it is working well with a properly written web page and IF all the content on the page is accessible to it.
Nearly evey website are written for sighted people. This poses significant issues quite often for non sighted folks.
Sometimes just bits and pieces of a web page are incompatible. Sometimes information on sites are input using images .and not using text.
It will look like text to a sighted person, but it ain’t always.
My adaptive software does not read images. At best it might say one is there, but that’s it. Now and then. Not always. Only HTML and Text get anything close to being able to have them read to me.
Navigating the site is another huge obstacle. Its why I ask for links if possible.
On the VDS site just to find out some info on the $5a’s I had to click on five different links to get to the review of the 5’s with the VDS amps.
Then my apps would not read the info online, so I had to copy and paste it onto a notepad text only doc and then cut to a std. doc for reading purposes.
It only took the better parr of an hour or so. And it did not answer my concerns for the dimensions of the VDS Q CTs. lol
Stereophile and a few other online pubs are even less accessible. I can not copy and paste their countents into a document for later reference. If the app is not feeling well, I miss the content completely. All the links on that page and others as well.
Still … all can be really rocking with the software and site, but still a this or a that is not stated, or Holy crap! I, me myself, simply missed hearing it!! Crap. Often I re-read what ever content way more than once. Tiome permitting and I feel up to it.
Additionally, manufacturer and online magazines as well as basically the world, needs to be far more aware there are people whose challenges prevent them from being in the game. Meaning sales from contact are lost. For no real good reason than poor judgement in erecting a website. Providing owner manuals in unlocked accessible formats , enabling easier navigation etc.
Pdf’s are another horror story all by themselves.
Due to blindness there are more than a few hoops I routinely am forced to deal with, others do not need to contend.
usually I’ve little trouble with this disadvantage but felt compelled to loose some of my frustrations in the areas which time and again aggravate me and in all are simply needless lacks of information which could have been posted by an author in such a way as ALL OF THE CONTENT IS ACCESSIBLE TO EVERYONE.
Anything not totally transparent here or otherwise can be unveiled via PM.
Atmosphere > Posting no model prices? Why not?
in the days of the internet a potential customer might be lost to the national distributor in that country if they see the US retail price.
Blindjim > Atmas… as usual I am grateful.
Wow. I’m very myopic too it seems. Never even crossed my mind as to the ‘hidden’ costs. Not once.
Thanks.
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pokey77 > I read the last few posts and walked away.
Blindjim > Fan boys! Sheessh.
pokey77 > I still want to further check out the Marten Django L. They were very nice sounding with Zesto tube gear at the LA Audio Show. Also want to hear T+A HV series SS electronics with the Sabrina's - supposed to be very good.
Blindjim > for the most part, We are on the same path in our curiosities. I saw the account on the martin Django XL… not the ‘L’, and liked what I read. The WAS Sabrina as well seems a pretty interesting option although I feel both to be better optimized will need more than a couple handfuls of watts, which in all I don’t mind going with Solid amps, although tubes this time would be a primary choice if possible..
A hybrid amp might be the solution with either speaker. Indeed with a few speakers, like the upper ranges of Vienna Acoustic, KEF, or Audio Physics.
Simple works best for me. Even incorporating subs is not my preff, but often a necessity.
The ONLY reason for even thinking about active sub speakers is my desires on using a tube amp for power. 100wpc or less. Certainly no more than 200w.
Wherever things can be simplified in a system, I’m going to opt in for it. For now anyhow. I’m even beginning to like the notion of a single pair of speaker terminals vs two pairs.
Past years said to me, Focal are not speakers I’d likely ever own, but now, maybe so.
The Soffra versions, Audio Physic, WAS Sabrinas, Django XL, VA Music or Listz, KEF Blades, and on the outside the Personna lineup just out on paper at least all look like really viable well put to gether solutions..
Most, however sure look like they’ll want or need more than any 50 – 100 wpc to control them well. Driving them is another story and less than 100 wpc sure ought to work OK.
Good luck checking out the combos you noted. Clue me in on what you find interesting. Many thanks.
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Prof > “…do I ever agree with you”
“Having to wade through the body of the review hoping the reviews has stated these somewhere is so aggravating.”
Blindjim > DITO.
A casual owner account on a membership based forum has one bar to overcome. Professionals, or supposed ‘journalists’ need to be held to a much higher bar. They do a dis-service to the manufacturer and reader to approach articles on equipment which exceeds rational financial good sense so regularly If or when they purposefully omit or casually ignore pertinent data on the device under evaluation.
I’m beginning to feel such things are an indictment of the current sociall zeitgeist reflecting specifics and details, form and content are no longer integral feature sets of writing technical assessments more often than not.
I’m fairly competent anyone can say, “this is the best my rig has ever sounded! Or This is the most incredible ….. “” Although its nice to hear and adds a modicum of confidence about the product itself, perhaps, what then?
I’ve archived maybe 60 or more accounts on various gear in the past month or three. Read still more. Many were similar accounts of the exact same item, penned by different folks.
It sure seems any number of current ‘professional’ appraisals are little more than just letters to another associate who is as or nearly as familiar to the product as is the critic expressing their subjective views.
There are some outstanding writers too. Tafel, Dudley, Fremer, Atkinson, and more I am sorry I simply can’t immediately recall. The really good ones are able to convey much of what their perceptions are regarding the gear under the spotlight. They keep the focus on the item and not on themselves. Albeit, I’m not always in agreement or understanding some remarks as the media they use is totally foreign to me, or is introduced via analog sources, or thru comparisons with other likewise but unfamiliar gear, but I always get the gist of it… I think.
BTW…I took journalism classes, and seem to recall Editors are supposed to well, ‘edit’ oversee, and or have someone ‘proof’ whatever article is up for publishing as its all on their shoulders ultimately, and not the critic du jour.
Apparently, The 2000’s are a whole different ball game.
Prof > This is one reason why I appreciate Stereophile reviews so much: I always know exactly where to go for the specs and measurements.
Blindjim > of them all, Stereophile does justice to their accounts front to back.
TAS is another very good source for above average accounts.
Dlcockrum > ctsooner is a good dude but
Blindjim > everyone is or has good in them.
Passion is one thing. Comprehension is quite another thing.
Just say to someone they are ‘special’ and regularly of late the reply is, “special how?” “Short bus special?” etc. the ongoing level of acrimony is quite high. Higher than its ever been and more than ever online.
One can’t just race about with scissors in hand and with blinders on, seeing only their path.
OK… I’m gonna burn this soap box now. Once I find a lighter.
Ctsooner > “… Jim, condescension is how I read your posts, but maybe I was wrong. I'll reread and if wrong, I am sorry….”
Blindjim > “… other people told me…” “…””… Troll” “….”…if wrong…. MS!? “…condescention….”
I await your apology.
There was an air of disdain although it was not aimed at you!!!! That was evident in the very first few lines. It could not have been more clearly stated.
What followed as was again said rather plainly, my irritation lay with those online articles that would not reveal thoroughly important aspects of the loudspeakers, and why I asked that info of you…. if you plese.
Other’s saw this squarely.
Its also about self determination. Not living via a concensus from whomever won’t even post their own thoughts on the matter and goad you into doing it. . Some of these
sentiments and or words are flatly hurtful and as previously said, injurious. Plain and simple.
My best friend of 20 years wife, has MS. Advanced. She and I get along famously. Never have we misunderstood one another. When we disagree, we don’t go to name calling.
The best ally for anyone posting online is to grow some thicker skin. Fully read and comprehend what is actually being said and not consider other posts as personal affronts & accusations.
The second best ally is paitient thoughtful consideration.
The third best ally is the DELETE key.
If all of these fail, the only course of action needed is an amends..
pokey77 > I went back and read the account of your condition. I'm now enlightened.
Blindjim > I regret posting my challenges. It should not matter but it seemd the shortest route to unclutter the likely ‘cluttered’ discourse. Number one tenant for myself is to not hurt anyone with what I say or do. I do the best I can.
pokey77 > Jim, you mentioned the Sopra 2s. I've heard them a bunch of times and all but one time they were a turn off. Heard them with both tubes and SS. The one time they were pretty good was with PrimaLuna as I mentioned previously, and PS audio direct stream DAC with Mac book and pretty expensive cable (forget brand). Very well setup. But for me, they don't compete with the speakers mentioned above. They are a step down for me.
Blindjim > hmmm. Interesting. Really. The insights are most valuable. Thanks.
Ever hear the Sabrinas with MBL electrics?
Correct me here, but aren’t MBL speakers akin to di pole non point source type speakers? Maybe similar to Nola?
I find it curious the 87db WAS speaker wit 4ohm IMP did very very well with 75wpc Mac amps. How big was the room (s)?
Room and certainly setup is key. I do feel though, synergy is still a result. Having a shorter path to it is always nice.
I know I’ve heard this or that rig and felt I could afford this or those parts of it, but never felt I could just whip out the plastic and say “gimme it all!” which would settle a whole lot of later issues.
Last note… people here tout Ayre electrics as killer most often. I’ve only heard it in arrangements wherein the sound was so dry and calculating it never grabbed me at all. Always with speakers of $18 to $30K. highly resolving, quite detailed yet just another ho hum affair.
All I could see was ‘potential’ for one pair of the speakers that were the orig Sophias..
Consequently, what size room the Sabrina’s will work well up to is a real curiosity. For the moment, as it is for any speaker system, naturally. I do so dig the WAS Sabrina/Sophia esthetic and overall size. Its electric numbers IMHO aren’t thrilling.
Thanks much.
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pokey77 > I am at the point that I want to find the synergy and do the "give me it all" option. I don't want to experiment… , I just want to get it as good as I can and start enjoying. I'm some ways from making any choic….
blindjim > man! Do I hear that! As usual, huge gratitude.
I’m hung up on what I want as the power line and what could be eual or better than that for the power train of my system.
By the time I’m ready & able, they’ll have chips we can have imbedded into our physiology that will produce live concert experiences and we can download anywhere at anytime.
I feel I’d very much like to go with VAC sig preamp and to start with, one 200 IQ amp. Immediately, this is a bit more than a drop in the bucket no matter . how deep the pockets. $42K MSRP. Add another 200 I Q? $14K mor to get to 200wpc from the 100 wpc stereo amp. The 2nd amp is of course, an option.
An alternative view here is using only the VAC sig pre with ??? SS or hybrid amp (s). Master Audio’s Classsic is around the VAC amp cost. PSA BHK 300 amps are similarly priced as the ‘Classic’. Haggle, Vitas, and others in that range are considerations. Even the Boulder 800 series amp, constellation entry level amp, and even on an older brand loyalty frame, BATs latest 655? Is still on the list.
I’ve found a component of speaker and amp combinating is the actual ‘control’ of the drivers using at least, or more than sufficient watts. There is IMHO a notable improvement in SQ and all of its respects. Usually.
It seems regardless the sonic quality coming from the speaker, more often than not, an ‘as’ compentnt amp with more power sounds better. This is of course, plus or minus tube power vs. SS power. It is a better or more fair comparison to look from SS to SS as most tube amps simply don’t always come in the option of 300, 400, 500, or more wpc. As well, SS watts are far cheaper.
Hearing your accounts of what IMO is minimal power of 75wpc as applied to the speakers you point out, is not too surprising, as I don’t know of the listening levels achieved, yet as said, feel mo’ watts would be better. Keeping the same or closely similar quality in the more powerful amp.
In any event quality power equates to quality results. Everytime. Everytime so far in my EXP. The idea of the PL power adds another bolt of zest as does another amp matching you mentioned previously.
I do very much like the idea of coming out of this without having to drop $20 - $25K on speakers and would prefer, in spite of the boring run in periods for new one, buy new speakers, not used. $20K + speakers would have hidden costs as I’m likely gonna want to go see them first and theres that fee too.
Oil well. Hearing your exp has been quite beneficial as it usually is with any actual personal experiences from private owners.
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@pokey77
Don’t look!! stay out of the big room!!! Always.
Did I hear you say the haegel monos were akin to the sound of older Levinson amps?
Although I’ve heard the Levinson amps sound very nice, they’ve always seemed to polite to my ears. I like the older Krell AB amps better…. Almost. Krell can be a bit strident up top depending on the upstream gear and accessories.
I had a KAV 250 with a Sony ES HT receiver as preamp, and some BW and Monitor audio Gold series speakers until I sprang for the KAV preamp. It sure calmed the Krell amp way down to a more civilized presentation. This was prior to my being convinced wires do matter. .
Another pr of Phase Technology speakers came on board, then another pair but those were Floor standers. Tuff 2ohm loads. BAT vk500 replaced the Krell. VR4 JRs evicted the monitor Audios.
The Thor MK II pre and Dodd monos chased the BAT vk5 & VK500, and a pair of Silverline Sonata IIIs took over the speaker duties.
Its tuff for me to stray far from where I feel the sound actually occurs. At the source and within the amp (s). its where I default to put the largest part of the investment. Thereafter, the better I can manage with speakers, the better things ‘should’ be.
I’d always rather have more ahead of the speakers than in the speakers themselves, ‘if’ I have to choose how to split up the funds.
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pokey77 > It is the $30-45k total-cost systems that get me dreaming
blindjim > you and me both!!
You ever get to La hoya in San Diego area? I saw a listing for a dealership there which says they carry YG, Master Audio, Wilson, etc. was just wondering.
randy-11 > How can a cheap $15,000 speaker like the Vandy Quatro Wood CT be #1???
Blindjim > yeah. I wondered that to, briefly, then figured it out. They ain’t the only $15K or so speaker out there that’s ‘subjectively’ besting speakers costing far, far more.
IMHO…. The key word is ‘subjectively’.
Until someone puts some Quatts in whichever room with who knows amps and sources and wires, (all done synergistically speaking) then blindfolds 2000 people and has them all walk in, sit down, and listen, then get up walk out and into another likewise room equiped just as well (synergistically speaking) but with much more expensive speakers and have the same 2000 folks listen again then have everyone vote on which room sounded best, we will never know.
Even then we won’t really know as many will peek. lol
Somewhere on these pages, it was once said quite often, there is an effect that comes with the purchase of upper range equipment. The more expensive it becomes the less ambiguous or objective the buyer remains… or so the discourses usually became. IOW… its hard to get someone who currently owns what ever a thing to say it isn’t very good…. Until they sell it and buy another similar but different thing.
Then too, either there’s the love of it as the ears truly love it, or there is the it’s the best thing ever as its being listed for sale … often by the same folks calling it great.
… and there’s the real world side of the coin. The, ‘In your home’ side which is where one will concentrate on setup, or could, then arrange them to optimize the system synergy and room acoustics… usually this last deal bests a whole lot of dealership listening rooms..
As well, we get very used to hearing our rig. We get to liking what our stereo sounds like. Hearing something new, in a different room is quite a stark contrast and we are out of our comfort zones instantly.
Thereafter, listening to other still more costly speakers is an ‘out of context’ situation. One can only guess at what the far more pricey speakers could sound like in their homes, or recognize immediately system synergy of that particular outfit, or how poorly they sound, as compared to your own really well done or just very familiar rig back at home.
The most fascinating part here is even when one strolls into a dealer’s room where a system is really well setup and the synergy is abundantly evident, that exact same gear in your home is not going to sound identical!!!
We have all experienced these things if we’ve been out and about listening to other rooms and equipment. It never fails.
As much as it is about performance, its about support too. I’d not ever deal with any maker whose attitudes and or service demonstrates positions which are erudite elitist or disparaging of their competition.
There are far, far too many outstanding choices to have to deal with that sort of noise.
Gdhal > I have a pair of Golden Ear Triton Reference (MSRP $8500/pair). I'm of the opinion they do everything better than most other speakers regardless of cost.
Blindjim > congratulations! That line is the whole object of this hobby.
One more factor in comparing $10K speakers to $20K speakers is the ‘point of diminishing returns’.
Anyone who thinks $30K speakers are twice as good as $15K speakers hasn’t ever bought $30k speakers… maybe not even heard $30K speakers. At least they’ve probably not heard a direct contrast with speakers selling for half that amount.
The whole idea of this thread is/was to spot light what $25K buys these days in NEW loudspeakers.
It’s nearly immaterial IMO which pair of speakers land in my house, if they can be bought for $25K or there abouts, I’m certain they will sound fabulous… once the electronics are up to par and the room gets tweaked. Unquestionably.
I prefer cones to panels so I look towards those sorts. I will keep that view until something else vividly changes my mind.
Speakers as always are only as good as what is in front of them, and what is physically, (the room), surrounding them. Period.
nyaudio98 > Has anybody listened to reflector from reference 3a...supposed to be outstanding at around 10k
blindjim > sorry, I’ve never heard of these. Perhaps others here may have some exp with them. I’ve only heard one pr. Of their stand mounts. Briefly.
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Willgolf > Wilson Audio Duette 2's on sale on this site.
Blindjim > thanks much. I’m looking farther and newer up the food chain. Sorry these would not be of interest to me presently.
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