Pure silvers if implemented rcorrectly you will end up what Charlesdad is describing.Iam using Kimber 8ag Speakers cable and Audioquest diamond ic No trace of brightness at all. Lak is correct you will never know till you hear them in your system.
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Agreed Numerous variables and circumstances account for different listening experiences reported with audio products. Charles |
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My experience with silver wire cables mirrors yours, no issues with bright, harsh or thin presentation. Actually in my audio systems through the years silver tilts just a bit toward warmth and full body tonality. Yet providing excellent resolution,clarity and maintaining a terrific sense of musical pace and flow. To be fair, all silver cables aren’t the same and certainly could reflect the different impressions people report. And of course, different systems/components used. |
+1 soix. I also use AZ Silver Ref (version 2) and it is not at all bright, but rather extended on both ends, overall neutral, with just a hair leaning towards the "warm" side. Completely natural and non fatiguing. TBH, I'm not sure why the fallacy that "silver is bright" persists, where as you say the implementation is the main factor in cable performance. |
@mitch2 - I'm very happy with Steve's Helix design. I have used silver from Chris in the past, but OCC solid copper (partsconnexion) with teflon and the Helix wrap has become my reference. About to try a triple C (Acoustic Revive) wire to see if I can tell a difference. Only build XLRs, no RCAs. Strictly from my streamer/dac to amp. Although, really intrigued with all in ones that make cabling (which I loved to build) a moot point... |
I dunno, this silver vs. copper and stranded vs. rectangular/solid gore thing seems a lot like different DAC chips and R2R as they’re implemented in DACs. The wire is only one component in cables as the DAC architecture is in any DAC, and how everything is implemented around it can be as much if not more impactful than the choice of wire used. I’ve got Acoustic Zen Silver Ref interconnects and for all the world they blend the best of silver and copper ICs. I’ve had copper ICs that sounded more shrill, and I’ve had silver ICs that’ve sounded more mellow. As with many things in audio, it’s more about the total implementation than any single component. Just my take and experience FWIW. |
mechans, OCC single crystal is far superior to regular silver cable but OCC single Crystal silver is even better and now there's something even better and that's rectangular OCC copper and silver, neotech is the only company that makes it, the Sahara is the rectangular copper OCC wire and the Amazon is the rectangular silver OCC wire, even better than the round OCC that I had prior check it out on the neotech website. |
dave_72 depends what kind of silver Dave OCC single Crystal silver will be a little bit better in the highs than OCC single Crystal copper but now there's something even better it's rectangular OCC single crystal wire, Neotech is the only company that makes it, the Sahara is there rectangular copper OCC wire and the Amazon is there rectangular silver OCC wire check out their website, I compared it to the round OCC and the rectangular is much better I'm hearing stuff deeper into the sun stage which I wasn't hearing before and everything is much clearer faster black or background when you try this you won't go back to anything else. |
well we don't have one answer to this equation if the silver was ofc silver then no the OCC copper will beat it all to hell because if it's ofc silver it's still going to have 60 to 70 Crystal barriers per foot which are little fractures in The wire which the signal has to jump, OCC has no Crystal barriers for 700 ft so the signal has an easier time of flowing, but if it was OCC single Crystal silver then yes the silver will be better. |
"I have built gear and cables using both and one fact remains.....there is no answer to your question that is the final truth for all. It depends on your gear, musical tastes (type of music), sound preference, system synergy and on and on..... I have found that if you’re going to use silver, then go for solid core and go for as heavy of a guage as you can afford/find. The right silver, solid core, and thicker than 24 gauge can sound very good indeed. Silver does sound different and has proven to be more resolving in each and every case I have used it. Great solid core copper is warmer sounding and more rounded if you will. This is also something I have witnessed time and time again. A mixture of the two throughout my system has yielded the best results. This has taken me several years and lots of experimenting however. The only way to learn for yourself is to try some. No other way I am afraid to say. If you listen to mellow jazz and calm voice that is well recorded, then silver may be just the ticket. It may, but there are many other variables which folks have already stated. I have found that the recording quality plays a big role on which wire I prefer. Poor recordings suffer more on silver in my experience. If your musical tastes force you to listen to many mediocre to poor recordings, then copper may be a better choice for you." @grannyring I could agree with this advice more..I am auditioning UPOCC Silver now and the differences are real. Definitely a good difference. Better is always subjective based on ear and system so I will stop at different as a characterization. But silver UPOCC PCs are a great way to ring more out of your system and or tune it to your liking (or not). I find it to be incredibly detailed, smooth and just overall brilliant. |
Wow, now it's a conspiracy. They're all after me. It took you this long to come up with this argument? I'm not in cahoots with anyone here. Nor, unlike you, do I follow others just to get in their faces. You have an agenda, which seems to be your hobby. You've gotten into many a dispute with others here and keep hounding them. The best outcome here would be to never trade ink with you again, but, you just keep on provoking, trying to get the last word, coming up with inane angles for your protestations. You need to move on. All the best, Nonoise |
Nonoise, I see you and others try to play this trick with me and perhaps you do it with others. I am the newest boogie man I see. I am but one person. For the most part, I don’t see people who take a more reasoned and skeptical approach to improvement throwing out random insults when others don’t agree with them. Yes, they will state, repeatedly bias, because it is very real, and unavoidable. They may point out statements that are simply untrue, by any understanding we have (which is quite extensive). But the name calling, the insults, the deflections from the topic, all signs of being unable to address the issue, that comes from people like you. Those are the signs of someone angry and incensed. As Prof pointed out, you and others accuse everyone else of being narrow and dogmatic, but you fail to even consider it yourselves to the point of not even being able to admit that you have bias and are fallible. You insist we say it is our way or the highway, but the only thing we insist on is recognizing that you have bias, and you are fallible. It is a simple statement of truth. You and other claims "trust your ears", but you don't trust your ears. If you did, you would not practically insist on sighted comparisons. Worse, you claim that people who take a reasoned and skeptical approach only "listen to measurements", to such a degree that you try to throw this in our faces, even though in a given topic, measurements have not been mentioned, at all, and every bit of the discussion is about ears only testing. Don't say it does not happen. It has happened a few times just in the last week. I am sorry that these forums are primarily public and you have to be exposed to opinions and facts that you do not like. |
I can see why you've changed your handle about half a dozen times now. Not a mark of a stable personality. No special pleading, please. Do you honestly think I'm appealing to the likes of you? The quicker you go away and start anew with a new handle, the better for the rest of us. All the best, Nonoise |
Dude, you are one really out on a vendetta. I’m not the one who’s incensed, you are. Stop projecting and trying to turn the argument on it’s head as to who’s all worked up. You’ve taken steps to back off and quit being an PITA, trying the therapist angle but it’s a little too late. Have you ever had a set up where the imaging was really good and the speakers rarely ever drew attention to themselves? And all it took was a cable swap and the imaging fell apart with the speakers being more the source of the sound? Or do you feel that any cable will get the same results? All the best, Nonoise |
Unless you are somewhat close to a 60 degree angle, say 50-70, your sound stage is probably pretty screwed up anyway. Sure narrower gives a better defined center image, and wider can give you more stage width while making the center fuzzy, and that is all personal preference, but I am giving you the benefit of the doubt. 1/3 of 1/2 of 60 = 10 degrees. Easy peasy. Again, Occam's razor. You are trying to assign special properties, outside what is possible, to stranded wire. The reasonable thing to do is look at what is more likely. You are misinterpreting, you are biased, or something is broken. Stop getting all incensed, step back, and think about what is really happening and why. Getting angry at me is not going to change your listening, though it may reinforce or break a bias. I lean towards the former. |
Multiple Migs, You really need to get a hobby. Would you have not blown your top if I had said it differently, like the imaged fattened up and seemed bloated? That, and where in hell did you get the 10º-20º degree shift? Are you capable of remote viewing? Tell me, just how large is the image of Elinor Frey playing the prelude for Bach’s Suite No.1 for solo cello in my living room and just how far to the left is the center of my left speaker? How far back do I sit? You’re going overboard in opening your mouth and removing all doubt. All the best, Nonoise |
Notice in the quote that I said some of it went about 1/3 to the left, not all of it. In your eagerness to be a PITA you pounced before you looked. But being you, I don't expect you to say anything productive. Again, we go back to Occam's razor. Some of it went 1/3 to the right, so like 10-20 degrees. You do realize this is a major change? Stranded wire does not do this. Copper / silver does not do this. A significant shift in the frequency response on only one side could do this. In your eagerness to blame stranding, you did not think. You have assigned a conclusion without any consideration to whether that conclusion even makes sense or is possible. |
I have used QED silver anniversary cable for years in my system. Silver plated ofc copper. I find it provides excellent high frequency detail, yet retains informative tight bass frequencies. I use the biwire version of the cable. I see no reason to change it out as I’m happy with the way it sounds. Orton seems to like to use silver in the construction of some of their cartridges, the 2m silver and both the 2m bronze and 2m black.. silver plated copper wire. I use the 2m bronze, it's a fantastic cartridge. |
Sorry, many faces of whatever, but the connections were tight. It was the image that was smeared. Notice in the quote that I said some of it went about 1/3 to the left, not all of it. In your eagerness to be a PITA you pounced before you looked. But being you, I don't expect you to say anything productive. All the best, Nonoise |
Listening to the copper set up I was noting the pluses and minuses. It was when I put on a solo cello was when I heard the grossest event. The cello was playing dead center and as it played, some of it went about 1/3 of the way to the left when it always stayed nice and centered. You honestly believe the location of an instrument shifted what, 10-20 degrees because of stranded wire? You do realize that makes almost anything you write suspect? Perhaps you could discuss how we perceive instrument location and how stranded wire shifted the image 10-20 degrees? Are you familiar with Occam's Razor? ... the simplest explanation is usually the right one. Did it occur to you that you had a bad connection that worked its way loose? It wasn't stranded wire that caused the image to shift. It may have been a bad connection. That could have explained the other issues too. |
Talk about a 180. Listening to the cooper set up I was noting the pluses and minuses. It was when I put on a solo cello was when I heard the grossest event. The cello was playing dead center and as it played, some of it went about 1/3 of the way to the left when it always stayed nice and centered. I chalked that up to the stranded wire. There was also some sibilance in the upper mids where it never existed before. Enough of this. When putting the Cabledyne Virtuosos back it (and not looking forward to using the Tempo Electric) I remembered the lower line of Cabledyne SCs that I had and put them in. It's their entry line of silver cables that also uses OCC stranded silver but in a lower tech jacket, sheathed in copper with BFA bananas. The last time I tried them in a bi wire set up was before I got my power conditioner, footers and before I switched the filter setting on my SACD player. It had an etched sound to it. Wondering how I was going to use two banana connectors on one input, I just unloosened the plastic cover on the speaker output as far as it would go and saw my opening: the bare wire insert was large enough to accommodate the banana so I put it in, tightened it down, and use the regular input for the other banana. It's game over for me now. With OCC stranded silver in both cables of the same make and length, my speakers now sing with one unified voice, the likes of which I've never experienced. As Alex said, in A Clockwork Orange, "it's clear as a sky of azure blue: clear as an unmuddied lake." Now I know what coherence is. There's no sign of aggressiveness, glare, bite, etch, or forwardness. No leading edge to speak of. Just music that's full, detailed, balanced and natural. There's real silence when the music pauses. I don't know why Cabledyne went out of business but that former Belden engineer who designed these cables knew what he was doing. All the best, Nonoise |
Well, I just went into the rabbit hole and this is one large warren. Going through my SC pile I dug out a set of Supra Ply with tinned ends and replaced the Tempo Electrics with them. I haven't tried them since I got my power conditioner, fuses, footers, etc. so it's been a good many years. By themselves and with proper jumpers, they injected too much smoke into the mix and were weak in the bass. Now, when being used in a bi wire set, they inject just enough smoke so as to take away the sharp outlines that the silver cables provide. Just enough to take away that you are there in the recording studio feeling to now being out in the audience. Every single thing I hear in with the silver cables is present, but not as prominent in the leading edge. There's a kind of burnishing of the sound with small doses of honey that fleshes out voices, instruments and the like and is really captivating. Hearing that, I went and swapped out the Cabledyne Virtuosos with a pair of Zu Events and it was kind of a let down with regards to bass. Kind of hard to tell so I ran my CD burn in disc and will keep them in for a week or so to see how they fare. What I intend to do is see if I can go with an all copper route with a nice bi wire set. This will be interesting since my JBLs are truly meant to be bi wired and this is just the start of things. All previous conceptions seem to be going out the proverbial window. It seems like Vandersteen was right when he said one must remove the bass cabling from the rest of the spectrum as it interferes too much with it. All the best, Nonoise |
In their upper-end ICs, Inakustik go to heroic lengths (with small discs with tiny holes in them) to ensure the wires remain in an air dielectric with minimal contact with anything. Black Cat's "wavy" flattened wire takes a less expensive path to achieving something close to 100% air dielectric. Other manufacturers claim an air dielectric but don't post detailed diagrams of how they manage this inside their interconnects. |
@nonoise, Yes, you sure are in a SC quandary, LOL. I mean how can you go wrong with 10 gauge OCC stranded silver for the bass? My Neotech speaker cables are the 9 gauge NES 1002 series which I just found a pair online for 5800, what? I have two pairs of these. I bought them just before Neotech became a true marketing brand instead of being an OEM for several other mainstream cable manufacturers. People who look at them think I have welding cables or pythons behind the amps, LOL. The Tempo Electric cables, which are significantly smaller in diameter compared to the Neotechs, has me wondering how they would sound, hmmm. Also, Neotech has plenty of pure silver variants with PTFE options all over the marketplace. Lots of experimentation opportunities for sure. |
@audioquest4life , My Tempo Electric SCs are both 8' for the 16 GA and I believe 6' for the 14 GA. In addition to the Tempo Electric on the highs, I'm using my trusty old Cabledyne Virtuoso SCs for the bass. They are 10 GA OCC stranded silver with Furutech locking bananas and I really hate the idea of taking them out of the equation as they perform admirably. They're even better sounding than the Tempo Electric, IMHO. Quite the quandary I'm in, ain't I? All the best, Nonoise |
@nonoise I see you are also a Tempo Electric cable user as well. It would be interesting to see how a set of bi-wire Tempo Electric speaker cables compare to your single wire experience. My Neotech high definition silver speaker cables sound better in bi-wire configuration with my speakers, Classic Audio Loudspeakers T1.5 Reference from McIntosh Mc2301 amps. I used the classic Audio copper jumpers at first, but felt that the imaging was slightly subdued. How long are your speaker cables? I need a pair of 10 feet and prefer bananas. |
@williewonka , Actually, I was using a pair of DH Labs silver plated OFC copper jumpers and for the longest time, and thought they were great. It was when I tried using the Tempo Electrics on the high connectors was when I realized some musical information was AWOL, along with cleaner and clearer highs and lows. This will take some time. 😄 All the best, Nonoise |
@nonoise - When you say jumpers - are you using the metal jumpers that come with the speaker? If you are, then yes, the jumpers are the issue - but rather the making a second set of cables try some quality jumpers like these ones on @grannyring 's system page - he loves them grannyring's System - Virtual Systems (audiogon.com) Also take a look at this thread - the Helix Speaker cables are exceptional Regards - Steve |
The answers here, so far, have been far from random. What they do seem is to indicate a particular direction to go. Soon, I'm going to be experimenting with some copper bi wire cables and if that is a bust, then my next move will be to take my two Tempo Electric speaker cables and maybe bi wire them using a KLE Harmony banana that can accept two different cables and use that for the amp end and use some single bananas for the speaker end and see how that fares. Tempo Electric were the best SCs I've encountered when I had my Tonian Labs TL-D1s. Nothing else came close, in my limited experience. It was only when I got my JBLs is where the Tempo Electrics fell short, and that may very well be that the speaker needs to be bi wired to sound it's best. It's the way I have it now with two different style cables and it's much better sounding that way already. The jumpers were holding things back. Time will tell. All the best, Nonoise |
Last few weeks there are silver cables laying on the floor. Also copper. Just laying there. Couple different ones. I leave them alone a lot. You would think if one was going to beat the other it would have happened by now. It is hard to be sure. I wouldn’t want to leap to any conclusions. It could be I just happen to have picked unusually amicable cables. Then again, and not saying for sure one way or the other, but do you think it could simply be they are inanimate? |
In the words of Obi-Wan: "There is another" That stuff is all wire (silver, copper, carbon fiber, etc), where the molecular structure is locked and solid and is involved in the creation, or more a reflection... the effects we call complex impedance or LCR. With liquid metal it is completely different. It behaves principally in a quantum fashion. A true and actual quantum level beast as the scientific descriptor of the fluid in situ. Not a buzz word. First time that it is real and is the dominant factor. for the first time in most people’s lives ...to be able to distance themselves from wire, cables and LCR and see stereoscopically into the subject and find depth or perspective for the first time. Eg, one can understand what copper sounds like and what silver sounds like and what carbon fiber cables sound like, but what if you remove the underling creator of the effect, the reaction of/in/between the lattice and electron flow, or LCR? What happens when the underlying anchoring fundamental changes? Only Liquid metal changes that and allows for perspective. the next problem we encounter, is that the entire edifice of electronics and signal is done as a pairing and we can’t escape that influence. thus all audio systems are tuned and altered to fit the problems of when electricity integrates with frozen lattice elemental and alloy solids. When one introduces the liquid metal, they will hear a difference. but will it fit the tuning done, will it fit tuning (system building, expectations, how we learned to hear, etc) that has occurred due to the wire problems, the metals and electrical complex LCR problem? Which one is correct? Some people hear it and some don’t, some like it and ask for more and some don’t. It literally is the biggest change in electrical conductor technology in the past 150 years. Take it to a professor of physics, one who specializes in electron flow, ask him If I exaggerate on that. Has anyone ever read the patent? I took transformers and inductors and all that end of the AC energy translation pool and completely turned it on it’s goddamned head. How about load sensitive waveform, current, voltage, and frequency shifting and patterning, in a single passive translation device? Has anyone ever actually read and understood the patent? Audio cables are the SMALLEST, most unimportant part of the patent. The wasted space part, relative to all the rest of it. I manged to nail the fundamental science, not the application of a known technology. Which is why the other thousand plus patents in new technology aren’t in it. They aren’t.. as it is a cornerstone patent, a fundamental patent. One has to read understand the ramifications of what it says - What it can all be extrapolated into. |
@koestner - RE: What Percentage I think a better question is - is it audible? And the answer is - very audible ! On the signal wire only, I moved from
The final variant excelled in details, clarity and imaging, so much that I could not believe what I was hearing from such a simple change The biggest improvements being the imaging which was clearly audible. Trusting my ears has always worked for me. Regards - Steve |
@williewonka, Thank you for the elaborate and detailed response. Your description of the cables with a Teflon outer jacket makes me think of my own custom length Tempo Electric silver ICs with oversized Teflon jackets. The ends are silver WBTs. I use these cables between the preamp and amps. Have been using them for about 14 years now. My default IC for German Octave MRE130, Bryston 4BSST, and now McIntosh MC2301 amps. Interestingly, my experience using silver and copper ICs started years ago with OEM Neotech cables. A dealer I met had a variety of Neotech OEM spools laying around and made me several incarnations of these cables when I asked him for some samples. I thought the copper Neotech ICs with copper WBTs sounded the most accurate on triangles and on mid range brass sounding instruments. The silver Neotechs with silver WBTs sounded exactly as others have experienced,,,sounding more zippy on the high end, but, at the same time, I felt as if the mid triangle was nearly, or the same as the copper, but the highs seemed to be a little more emphasized. I believe this perceived sound difference is why some prefer one type of cable over the other (individual gesmach and system composition). I spent months going back and forth until I just stayed with the silver cables. The silver and copper Neotech cables had been my reference point over other cables I have tried for many years. I felt like generals kicking out lieutenants from briefings when vendors came over to demonstrate their high end cables, and I stated, system sounds worse, not interested. For me, thou shall not tell me that I need to allow for cable break in to hear any differences. One should invariably hear something or not, simple as that, and the quality of playback should not sound less, or cause you to perceive it sounding worse. Some vendors may even say that your cables you own are so bad, that your ears need to adjust to the new cables. Let’s not go down that rabbit hole. Recently, I went against the grain of simple cables and ordered Audioquest Fire XlRs between the phono amp and preamp and ordered Analysis Plus Apex Silver phono cable. The Audioquest replaced my Neotech silver ICs and the Analysis Plus replaced my Silver Breeze phono cables with silver WBTs. The Silver Breeze is a simple silver wire with minor outer shielding. So far, all seems to be very quiet with some noticeable improvement in low level details. The Audioquest Fires will stay in place for a while and I will swap in the Neotech silver ICs between preamp and phono to see if I perceive anything glaringly different. If not, it is a shame that simple cable designs, such as pure copper or silver core with an oversized outer Teflon jacket are not more readily spoken of. I do follow the DIY community in another forum, but, that seems like it’s the Underground, LOL. Ciao, Audioquest4life |
@nonoise - thank you for that link - I just wished I had seen it when it was published. It would have save me a lot of time :-) I guess my first learning experience WRT cables and the effects/impacts of capacitance was around 10 years ago - I purchased a NAIM amp and they state on their web site that speaker cables having high capacitance will damage their amps, due to oscillation. But my thought process at that time was focused more on the capacitance between the two conductors - which is more akin to a capacitor and probably responsible for the change in tonality It wasn’t until more recently that I applied some thought as to how the signal in the wire could be impacted by the insulation of that wire. Which proved to be more of an impact to clarity and details This became very apparent once I had tried the same wire with different insulations in my Interconnects,
This paragraph from the article sums up nicely the impact an insulation of a wire has on the signal... Because this energy, once stored, is released back into the signal path out of phase with the incoming signal, either canceling incoming increments of signal or creating out-of-phase discharge artifacts, this is hugely important and is, in itself, proof that cables or any other capacitor in your system can make a difference to its sound.Thanks again for the article - it's good to have "the Why's" confirmed Cheers - Steve |
